HL Deb 24 March 1812 vol 22 cc153-7
The Earl of Darnley

rose to call their lordships' serious attention to the present situation of the labouring poor of Ireland. In the first place he was anxious, as far as possible, to obviate any objections which might be made against the general principle of the motion which he should submit to their lordships. He thought, from the present situation of Ireland, he was justified in calling the attention of parliament towards it: but he must at the same time observe, that if he believed any real scarcity of provisions existed in that country at the present moment, he would repress his feelings, and not bring the subject before the House; because he knew, in such a case, that the interference of their lordships could not effect any great alleviation of the evil. Believing, however, as he did, from the best information, that no real scarcity, no great deficiency in the necessaries of life, had actually taken place in that quarter of the empire—believing that no immediate danger was to be apprehended—he felt it a duty incumbent on him to state that which he knew to be a fact, namely, that certain districts were suffering all the miseries and evils attendant on a dearth of provisions, though no general scarcity existed. Many noble lords, from their residence in Ireland, might probably be enabled to give more circumstantial information on the subject than he could, whose knowledge was necessarily derived from others. But he was convinced of the accuracy of the statements which he held in his hand, which were written by persons on the spot, and from them it would appear, that the high price of provisions and the difficulty of procuring subsistence in particular districts, had been attended with very bad consequences.—The noble earl here read extracts from two letters, describing the distress which existed in the districts where they were written, but the names of which he did not state.—The facts narrated in these letters were undoubted, and a considerable alarm had been excited through different parts of the country in contemplation of a dearth of food. A reverend prelate, whom he did not then see in his place, but whose attention was particularly called to that part of Ireland where the dread of scarcity was most prevalent, must be aware, that, in his diocese, the poor were suffering great distress from want of provisions. Now, in his view of the subject, the legislature, by putting a stop to the distillation from corn in Ireland, would produce very beneficial effects. The encouragement of distillation in Ireland, he considered a strange and singular kind of policy. Among all the evils which that country suffered—among all the causes which were said to produce that want of industry, that spirit of insubordination to the laws, which had been so much complained of—nothing operated more powerfully than the facility with which the Irish peasantry were enabled to indulge in the use of spirituous liquors. At a former period, when the distillery was stopped, he had occasion to go to Ireland, and he noticed, in the lower orders, a very manifest and praiseworthy alteration. Instead of the frequent instances of intoxication, which he had formerly witnessed, be saw very few indeed during his residence in Ireland at that time. He, therefore, thought, that, when the prohibition was followed by such excellent consequences, the government had not consulted the advantage of the country, in the way all governments should do, by again permitting distillation to an unlimited extent to take place. He might be told, that the proposition he was about to make came too late, for the distiller had already purchased his annual stock of grain, and had even commenced his preparatory process. To a certain extent this might be the fact. But the answer was, why did not government look into the matter sooner? When they saw the rising price of grain, why did they not interfere? They had a rising market before them; and one of the consequences of their not having interposed was, that oats had now arrived at 30s. per barrel. He should be sorry to propose any thing which could interfere with the agricultural interests of Ireland; but the present was an extreme case, and deserved immediate attention. In consequence of the alarm which had been excited in particular parts of Ireland, the price of provisions had been enhanced far beyond any thing which the circumstances could justify; and, as parliament were competent to entertain any measure which might seem calculated to remedy the evil, he thought it was the duty of their lordships, even now, to consider the propriety of temporarily stopping the Corn Distillation. He did not mean to assert, that this was the best measure that could be resorted to—but such it certainly appeared to him; and if the noble lords opposite would satisfy him by shewing that they had done, or were doing, all that the necessity of the case required; or if, in opposition to what he had advanced, they would prove that no scarcity whatever existed in Ireland, he would very cheerfully withdraw his motion. His lordship concluded by reading the three Resolutions which he intended to propose for the adoption of the House, namely, 1st. That the present high price of provisions in Ireland has produced great distress to the labouring poor in that country, 2dly. That it is the duty of the House to take into consideration the best means of removing the evil. 3dly. That it is expedient, for that purpose, to suspend the distillation from grain, while such high price continues."

The Earl of Clancarty

said, he was fully inclined to give the noble earl every degree of credit on the score of purity of intention, in coming forward on the present occasion; but it was with much regret he felt obliged to oppose the adoption of the noble earl's propositions. Their lordships were not now to be reminded of the great, the extreme delicacy with which the agitation of all questions connected with the subsistence of the population was attended. They must feel the great importance of having it alleged in so grave a place, that the executive government had neglected its duty on an occasion of such vital importance. But without the existence of any actual scarcity, as the noble earl had avowed his belief of, and without which he must contend that any measure would be injurious, he thought it much to be lamented, that the subject was thus brought forward. His information, which he had from the best sources, from almost daily conversing with persons just arrived, or from letters almost daily received from Ireland, led him to draw very different conclusions from those adopted by the noble earl. There was no danger to be apprehended, or even the appearance of any degree of scarcity taking place, at least during the present year in that country; that an universal rise in the prices of grain had taken place in Ireland, was a proposition which he must deny. He had recently perused a written statement of the prices, in the principal markets, particularly in the articles of the first necessity, of oats, wheat, and potatoes. In some places, oats were at 13s. 6d. the barrel. At Bantry, they were at 14s. at one time, and afterwards at 12s. 6d.: on the very same day, they were as high as 25s. at the great mart of Cork. Potatoes were 3s. 6d. the stone at Cork, a price never known before, while in Dublin they were only 1s. The rise, therefore, was far from being universal, and there existed no apprehension of a scarcity. The proposition of stopping the distilleries would not act as a remedy, particularly now the season was nearly at its close, and the stock in a state, from the processes it had gone through, so as to be unfit for the food of man. The government of Ireland had earlier and better information on the subject than either himself or the noble earl, and it was highly reprehensible if it did not adopt every practicable expedient to avert the dangers contemplated by the noble earl. The principal cause, in his opinion, for a rise in the prices of grain in Ireland, was the great exportations of corn from that country, and particularly to Great Britain. It had been stated, that the proportion of wheat imported here from Ireland was about one-tenth; but of late years, the proportion, in the article of wheat alone, amounted to one third of the whole of the British importation! To this the measure proposed by a right hon. baronet in another House, greatly contributed. He meant not to impugn the measure, it was of advantage not only to Ireland, but to the empire at large [Hear, hear! from the marquis of Lansdown]. As to any serious apprehensions of a scarcity in Ireland, he was far from apprehending any. The noble duke at the head of that government did not sleep upon other occasions, and he was not likely to slumber on this. Judging and feeling as he did of the noble earl's proposition, he should take the liberty to move, "That this House do now adjourn."

The Marquis of Lansdowne

took the opportunity to offer a few general remarks on the nature and tendency of the measure adverted to in terms of approbation by the noble earl, which had been proposed by a right hon. friend of his (sir J. Newport) in another place; the effect would be more to qualify and render Ireland a grand granary for supply, and almost an inexhaustible source of supply to the empire at large. A system of frequent and reciprocal commercial intercourse between the sister islands, was one, he thought, the most to be wished for, as the system likely to be productive of the greatest reciprocal advantage.

Viscount Mountjoy

made a few remarks in support of what had fallen from the earl of Clancarty.

Lord Holland

shortly observed, that from what had transpired of the subject, he felt it rather difficult to understand upon what principle, and, with reference to the degree of scarcity to be apprehended, upon what ground it was deemed advisable to stop the distilleries in England, that would not equally apply to Ireland.

The motion for an adjournment was then carried without a division.