Official Report of the Grand Committee on the Transport Bill (Hansard, 27 June 2000)

HL Deb 27 June 2000 vol 614 cc1-62GC 1GC

§ Tuesday, 27th June 2000.

§ The Committee met at half-past three of the clock

§ [The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Ampthill) in the Chair.]

§ The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Ampthill)
Before I put the Question that the Title be postponed, it may be helpful to remind your Lordships of the procedure for today's Committee stage. Except in one important respect, our proceedings will be exactly as in a normal Committee of the Whole House. We shall go through the Bill clause by clause; noble Lords will speak standing; all noble Lords are free to attend and participate; and the proceedings will be recorded in Hansard.
The one difference is that the House has agreed that there shall be no Divisions in the Grand Committee. Any issue on which agreement cannot be reached should be considered again at the Report stage when, if necessary, a Division may be called. Unless, therefore, an amendment is likely to be agreed to, it should be withdrawn.
I should explain what will happen if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting. The Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung and will then resume after 10 minutes.

§ Title postponed.

§ Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.

§ Clause 3 [Restrictions on providing services]:

§ The Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions (Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) moved Amendment No. 1: Page 2, line 42, leave out from ("area") to end of line 43.

§ The noble Lord said: I welcome Members of the Committee to this rather novel procedure in the Moses Room. The purpose of today's sitting of the Grand Committee is to consider government amendments to the Transport Bill. A revised Bill, as amended by the Grand Committee, will be printed overnight and will be available tomorrow. I am grateful to Members of the Committee for agreeing to remove all their amendments from the Order Paper for today's purposes. I understand that the Public Bill Office has offered assistance to noble Lords in retabling their amendments so that the references refer to the new version of the Bill. We are grateful for the help of the House authorities. The Bill will return to the Floor of the House for consideration in Committee in the usual way.

§ This group of amendments deals with the application of relevant provisions of Part I of the Bill to the Crown. The amendments consist of two new 2GC clauses, the first of which lists the provisions that will bind the Crown or may be applied to Crown aircraft. The second new clause provides that the Crown may not be found criminally liable by way of Part I, but persons acting on behalf of the Crown may, in certain cases, be found liable for criminal offences.

§ The provision that the Armed Forces of the Crown are not required to hold a licence to provide air traffic services is also moved into this section from Clause 3. Finally, provision is made that nothing in these Crown application provisions may affect Her Majesty in her private capacity. I beg to move.

§ On Question, amendment agreed to.

§ Lord Macdonald of Tradeston moved Amendment No. 2: Page 3, line 9, leave out subsection (5).

§ On Question, amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clause 4 [Exemptions]:

§ Lord Macdonald of Tradeston moved Amendment No. 3: Page 3, line 38, at end insert— ("(e) may be granted subject to such conditions as may be specified.").

§ The noble Lord said: This group of amendments concerns regulatory and licence-related matters. The amendments are largely technical, and the bulk of the group—Amendments Nos. 6 to 11, which concern the powers of the Competition Commission to veto licence modifications proposed by the CAA—is merely bringing our Bill into closer alignment with other utility legislation.

§ Amendments Nos. 3 and 4 also make the Bill more consistent with other utility legislation. Amendment No. 3 permits conditions to be attached to exemptions from the offence created by Clause 3 of the Bill. Amendment No. 4 sets out in greater detail the provisions which may be included in the licence and in particular those provisions of the licence which will depend on the CAA giving the licensee a notice or a consent or making determinations.

§ Amendment No. 5 is important. It will allow the CAA to relieve the licensee of his Clause 8 duty in respect of services which he is not providing. While the licensee, who of course will be NATS, will be the main provider of air traffic services in licensed airspace, it will not be the sole provider and it would be unduly onerous if NATS were to be bound by statutory duties for services provided by others.

§ Amendments Nos. 12 and 13 extend Clause 31 so as to require the CAA to investigate alleged or apprehended contraventions of the licensee's Clause 8 duties, in the same way as it is required to investigate alleged contraventions of licence conditions.

§ Amendments Nos. 14 and 15 relate to Clause 32, which requires the CAA to maintain a register of provisions, modifications, notices and other matters for the purposes of Chapter I. Amendment No. 14 makes the wording of Clause 32 consistent with Clause 7, as amended by Amendment No. 4.

3GC

§ Amendment No. 15 extends Clause 32 so as to include the terms of every notice made in connection with Amendment No. 5. I beg to move.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
I rise to address the Deputy Chairman as much as other Members of the Committee. I am not quite sure what role we all have; that is, those of us who are not singing the solo which the Minister is singing, or supporting him. I wonder whether at any stage we are to debate the merits of any of these amendments. This is a rather puzzling procedure. We have 167 government amendments which, even if the noble Lord's singing is not interrupted by any discordant sounds from here, will put quite a strain on him and we should like to provide him with some intervals so that he can at least get his breath. I congratulate the noble Lord on the very suitable shyness on his part and on that of the Government with regard to wishing to get rid of this stage of the Bill as quickly and as quietly as possible without too much of the glare of public attention being directed to this thrilling subject.
In passing, I congratulate the Government on the choice of the Moses Room for our discussions on this particular occasion. The Moses Room has a wonderful quality—most of what one says in it is totally inaudible! Not even the skill of the Hansard Reporters will be equal to the task of getting down every sentence that is spoken. So one pays tribute to the Government's judgment in choosing this most doubtful of all arenas.
The Government had this Bill in another place for three months where a docile majority let it through after limited debate, and now we have to make up for the deficiencies in the Bill that the House of Commons did nothing to disturb. It seems a very odd procedure. This is probably the first time ever that such a long series of government amendments has been sidelined in this way, whereby the Bill can be "comfortably cleansed", at least in the Government's eyes. The whole procedure is very confusing.

§ Lord Islwyn
Would it not be appropriate to say that what the noble Lord is referring to has been arranged through what we call the "usual channels"?

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
I am neither a part of the "usual channels", nor an expert in their procedures and I tend on the whole to be suspicious when agreements are reached between the usual channels on matters of procedure. When the Government start to attract the congratulations and the agreement of the Opposition Front Bench I always become worried, whichever side I am on, and I am somewhat worried today.
I do not wish to prolong my remarks at this stage but I am concerned to know whether anybody expects anyone on this side of the Committee to say anything about the merits of the amendments that the 4GC Government are making. Alternatively, are they simply being put into the washing machine for a suitable piece of laundering?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
Before the Government Deputy Chief Whip intervenes, perhaps I can reassure him that my noble friends and I intend to speak on a number of the amendments. We are mainly concerned with matters of clarification. However, one or two possibly substantial points arise, although I shall not object to any of the amendments.
Perhaps I may say to my noble friend and to Members of the Committee that I find this procedure quite helpful. It in fact gives the Opposition two bites of the cherry. We can listen to the Government's arguments on their own amendments at this stage in the Bill; the Bill will then be reprinted for us tomorrow and we go into the ordinary Committee in a week or 10 days' time. At that stage, if we wish, we can go over all the same ground again. Similarly at Report stage. So we get an extra bite of the cherry, which is helpful. We will also have the benefit of being able to read the Minister's explanation of his amendments rather than having to react to them immediately as one does at the ordinary Committee stage.
Having said that, I have a point on this grouping upon which I should like some clarification. It concerns Amendment No. 10—the new clause after Clause 15. Having laid down a framework for both the Competition Commission and the Civil Aviation Authority in Clauses 1 and 2, the Government understandably want the Competition Commission to come within the new clause. However, reference to the Competition Commission under Clause 11 requires it to investigate whether matters referred to it, operate against the public interest". The modifications it makes under Clause 15 are those needed to prevent effects adverse to the public interest. This is a much wider test than the objectives set out in the new clause and could conflict. I wonder if the Minister could comment on that. The obvious solution is to limit the investigation by the commission to matters operating against the framework set out in Clauses I and 2. But that would rather take the teeth out of any reference. A public interest provision could be included in Clauses 1 and 2, but that would make them rather wide in scope. Is the Minister in a position to comment on that?

§ 3.45 p.m.

§ Lord Macdonald of Tradeston
Amendments Nos. 6 to 11 deal with the role of the Competition Commission in the licence modification process. Clause 14 grants the Competition Commission a power of veto over some or all of the proposed licence modifications set out in a notice served upon it by the CAA. That power is limited to circumstances where the commission thinks that the CAA's modifications would not have the effect of remedying or preventing the adverse effect specified in the commission's reference report.
5GC Amendment No. 6 will have the effect of clarifying the extent of the application of the commission's power under this clause so that the commission is able to give a direction only where it thinks that the CAA's proposed modifications either go too far or do not go far enough. Although in common parlance the words "appropriate" and "needed" have much the same meaning, we consider that "appropriate" in this context may be misinterpreted so as to extend the commission's power beyond that which is intended.
The amendment will ensure that the commission is able to exercise its potentially swingeing power only in the necessary circumstances. Thus there is a back-stop provision for the commission to intervene at this stage in the licence modification process. The prime responsibility will remain with the regulator but the commission will be able to interpose a check if the regulator seems disposed to be too lenient or too draconian.
Amendment No. 9 will require the commission, after making a licence modification, to bring the fact to the attention of all parties likely, in its opinion, to be affected by it along with the reason for making the modification. That will be done through the publication of an appropriate notice, and in the case of a licence holder the CAA and the Secretary of State, service of a copy of the modification itself. In that way we shall introduce greater transparency into the modification process where the Competition Commission has become involved.
Amendment No. 10 is the first of the two new clauses directly related to the application of the commission's veto and modification powers which are exercisable under Clauses 14 and 15. This new clause requires the commission, when exercising its functions under subsections 15(2) and (3), to have regard to the CAA's duties set out in Clause 2. In this way both the CAA and the Competition Commission will, when considering licence modifications, be having regard to the same considerations. Accordingly, where the commission has exercised that power of veto under Clause 24, it will arrive at a modification which is entirely consistent with the CAA's general duties and which the CAA will be able to enforce.
Amendment No. 10 follows equivalent amendments to be made to existing utility legislation by the Utilities Bill.

§ 3.45 p.m.

§ Earl Attlee
The Minister mentioned Clause 32 when he spoke to his amendment. That refers to a register of licence vetoes. Clause 32(2) states that: The register must be kept in such premises and in such form as the CAA decides". We live in an electronic age. Does the Minister expect that details of the register will be published electronically?

§ Lord Macdonald of Tradeston
Yes, I would expect that.

§ Baroness Thomas of Walliswood
I am mindful of the fact that it may be difficult to hear what everybody is 6GC saying in this room. Amendment No. 3 amends Clause 4, and Clause 4 provides for exemption to the general rules that it is an offence to provide air traffic services in a managed area. The amendment merely enables the Secretary of State to grant exemptions for that prohibition subject to condition. What is meant by the word "conditions" and how does that fit in with general concerns for safety and for Clause 8 duties? I simply do not understand Amendment No. 4. If you read it, it does not tell you anything and does not make much sense of what it does tell you. I am at a loss to know what to think about that one.
Amendment No. 5 has the sideline, Power to exclude services from the effect of section 8". It allows the CAA to lift Clause 8 duties off the licence holder in respect of specified services. It may be said that those duties are not strict enough anyway, and if they can be lifted I should like to know in what circumstances and in regard to which duties they can be lifted.

§ Lord Macdonald of Tradeston
On Amendment No. 3 the sort of conditions which the noble Baroness asks about are those which might be imposed on those who benefit from an exemption, and conditions such as requiring the grantee to register with the CAA where that seems necessary, supplying the CAA with specified information or using specified types of equipment. Similar provisions are made in other utility legislation, and the Government consider that this amendment will enhance the regulatory regime, by giving it greater flexibility and allowing it to be tailored as necessary to the circumstances of the industry.
Amendment No. 4 sets out in greater detail the provisions which may be included in an operating licence.

§ On Question, amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clauses 5 and 6 agreed to.

§ Clause 7 [Licences: provisions]:

§ Lord Macdonald of Tradeston moved Amendment No. 4: Page 5, line 28, at end insert— ("(1 A) In particular, provision of the following kinds may be included—

(a) provision requiring the licence holder to enter into an agreement for a purpose specified in the licence and provision for determining the terms of the agreement;
(b) provision requiring the licence holder to comply with any requirements imposed at any time (by directions or otherwise) by a person with respect to any matter specified, or of a description specified, in the licence;
(c) provision requiring the licence holder, except in so far as a person consents to its doing or not doing them, not to do or to do such things as may be specified, or of a description specified, in the licence:
(d) provision requiring the licence holder to refer to a person for approval or determination such matters as may be specified, or of a description specified, in the licence.

7GC (1B) A reference in subsection (1A) to a person is to—

(a) a person specified, or of a description specified, in the licence for the purpose concerned, or
(b) if the licence so provides, a person nominated for the purpose concerned by a person falling within paragraph (a);

and any of those persons may be the licence authority or some other person.").

§ On Question, amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clause 8 agreed to.

§ Lord Macdonald of Tradeston moved Amendment No. 5: After Clause 8, insert the following new clause—

cc7-8GC