HL Deb 27 June 2000 vol 614 cc12-6GC

(".—(1) The Secretary of State may nominate a member of the CAA for the purposes of this section, and in this section references to the national security nominee are to the person nominated under this section.

(2) Subsection (3) applies if—

  1. (a) there is a difference of opinion between the national security nominee and the CAA,
  2. (b) the difference of opinion relates to the CAA's air navigation functions, and
  3. (c) the national security nominee thinks that if the CAA's opinion prevailed it could have an effect contrary to the interests of national security.

(3) In such a case—

  1. (a) the CAA must refer the matter to the Secretary of State, and
  2. (b) after consulting the CAA the Secretary of State may give it such directions regarding the matter as he thinks fit.

(4) The national security nominee may authorise a member or employee of the CAA to perform on his behalf the functions which he is to perform by virtue of this section; and while such an authorisation is effective references in subsection (2) to the national security nominee are to the person authorised under this subsection.").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 64 agreed to.

Clause 65 [Directions: supplementary]:

Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendments Nos. 30 to 32: Page 42, line 44, leave out ("or (6) or section") and insert (", (National security)(3) or"). Page 43, line 1. leave out ("or (6) or section") and insert (", (National security)(3) or"). Page 43. line 11. leave out ("63(6)") and insert ("(National security)(3)").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 65, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 66 and 67 agreed to.

Clause 68 [Interpretation]:

Lord Mcintosh of Haringey moved Amendment No. 33: Page 45. line 7. leave out ("provide air traffic services") and insert (''carry out activities with regard to air navigation").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 68, as amended, agreed to.

4.15 p.m.

Clause 69 [Charges for services]:

Lord Macdonald of Tradeston moved Amendment No. 34: Page 45, line 13, leave out ("traffic").

The noble Lord said: The most important aspects of this group of amendments to Chapter IV of the Bill relate to the introduction of three new clauses. In the first new clause (Amendment No. 45), together with Amendments Nos. 34 and 40, we are seeking to allow the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) to charge for certain services that it provides. Those are where the CAA provides services in the performance of air navigation functions under Chapter III, for which Eurocontrol is to collect charges under the Eurocontrol agreement; and the CAA may include an amount in respect of specifying, publication and recovery, where under that agreement, Eurocontrol collects a charge in respect of the specification and publication of that charge and its recovery.

Currently the Civil Aviation (Route Charges for Navigation Services) Regulations 1999 provide that aircraft operators must pay charges to Eurocontrol in respect of navigation services made available in specified airspace. Post-PPP, instead of the Secretary of State making regulations to set our charges, the CAA will have responsibility for specifying those charges, and hence it is intended that the powers in the Bill will be sufficient to enable it to do so. The meaning of "chargeable air traffic services", as currently drafted in Clause 73, would not include all of the CAA's services provided in performing its Chapter III air navigation functions, nor would that provision allow recovery of the CAA's Chapter IV cost of specifying, publishing or recovery. Where these services are properly recoverable through Eurocontrol the CAA should be allowed to do so and that is what these amendments will achieve.

The second new clause (Amendment No. 46) places further duties on the CAA and provides that the CAA must specify charges under Clause 69, if it thinks that it should do so in order for the United Kingdom's international agreements to be fulfilled. Further it must exercise those powers in a manner best calculated to take account of those agreements. The CAA must also exercise the power to specify in relation to Clause 73(2)(b) services—air traffic services that are provided outside the UK by international agreement—currently those in the Shanwick Oceanic Area, if it thinks that it should do so to enable the provider of these services to be paid for their provision.

The third new clause in this group (Amendment No. 47) seeks to ensure that, where information is given to the Secretary of State by the CAA concerning services and performing air navigation functions, or a licence holder concerning air traffic services, proposing the charges to be submitted to Eurocontrol, the Secretary of State must as far as practicable ensure that the information is given to Eurocontrol. However, that duty does not apply to information given by a licence holder if the CAA tells the Secretary of State that the giving of the information to Eurocontrol could result in the licence holder being paid charges, the calculation of which was in contravention of the provisions of the licence.

This new clause also ensures that if money is received by the Government from Eurocontrol in respect of those services, then the Secretary of State must as far as practicable ensure that the money is paid to the provider of the service. Similarly, if money is due to be paid by Eurocontrol, the Secretary of State must, as far as practicable, ensure that the money which falls to be paid, falls to be paid by Eurocontrol to the service provider. The reference to money being received by the UK Government is to money being received by a person on behalf of the Government.

Amendment No. 35 is in consequence of the new clause, Clause 46(1)(b).

Amendment No. 41 ensures that the CAA cannot charge for the same service both as an air traffic service and as one which it provides in performing its Chapter III air navigation functions.

Amendments Nos. 48 and 49 provide the meaning of the "Eurocontrol agreement" and "Licence holder" for inclusion in the interpretation Clause 77. Amendment No. 42 is in consequence of Amendment No. 48.

The remaining Amendments Nos. 36 to 39, 43 and 44 are consequential upon Amendments Nos. 34 and 40. I beg to move.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

I have one brief question on Amendment No. 47, paragraphs 4 and 5. In brackets, it says, "so far as practicable", as to whether or not the money should be handed over to the person who provides the service. Why should it be impractical that the money should not be handed over? Perhaps the noble Lord could give a brief explanation as to the circumstances that might cause that to arise.

Baroness Hamwee

Perhaps I may ask a question on Amendment No. 46. The CAA must exercise the powers set out, if it thinks it should do so". I have noted that in this Bill and in the amendments we are using the good plain English term "thinks" instead of "considers"; "takes a view" and so forth. I do not object to that. But this is a very subjective provision. It seems to put the CAA in the position of having to take a view rather than in the objective position that if an international agreement requires it, then it should do so. In other words, it is the CAA taking a view about international agreements rather than, as one might expect, the Secretary of State saying that we need to comply with the following international agreement.

My second point on this is that I assume it is implied that if, as a country, we are having a row over the international agreement in question, the CAA can have regard to that and does not need to get on with exercising those powers regardless of the difficulty over the agreement. It would be absurd if the CAA were, by this requirement, put in the position of acting entirely separately from other international interests.I can see the need for some such clause to require the CAA to do all of this when necessary and sensible. Therefore, in principle, I do not object to the clause.

Lord Macdonald of Tradeston

In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, as far as practicable, one would of course assume that that took account of the kind of commercial contingencies faced by every business. In this case, too, there is a particular reason for it, about which he rightly enquires. Our understanding is that we would not be able to bind Eurocontrol. I should stress that we do not expect any problems on that front. Although we would not be able to bind Eurocontrol and that is as far as it is practicable to go in a relationship with them.

On the CAA and its relationship to international agreements, the CAA has a locus in that respect because it is the regulator. However, under Clause 85 the Secretary of State can also issue directions to the CAA.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Macdonald of Tradeston moved Amendment No. 35: Page 46, line 5. leave out subsection (10).

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 69, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 70 to 72 agreed to.

Clause 73 [Chargeable air traffic services]:

Lord Macdonald of Tradeston moved Amendments Nos. 36 to 44: Page 47, line 31, leave out ("traffic"). Page 47. line 32, leave out ("air traffic"). Page 47, line 34, leave out ("traffic"). Page 47. line 35, leave out ("air traffic"). Page 47, line 43, at end insert— ("(cc) services which are provided by the CAA in performing its air navigation functions (within the meaning of Chapter III) and for which Eurocontrol is to collect charges under the Eurocontrol agreement;"). Page 48, line 1, after ("services") insert ("which do not fall within paragraph (cc) and"). Page 48, line 2. leave out from ("the") to the end of line 3 and insert ("Eurocontrol agreement"). Page 48, line 4, leave out ("traffic"). Page 48, line 16, leave out ("traffic").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 73, as amended, agreed to.

Lord Macdonald of Tradeston moved Amendments Nos. 45 to 47: After Clause 73, insert the following new clause—