Official Report of the Committee on the Reserve Forces Bill [H.L.]

HL Deb 23 January 1996 vol 568 cc1-42GC

Tuesday, 23rd January 1996.

The Committee met at half past three of the clock.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Amptill) in the Chair.]

The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Ampthill)

Before I put the question that the Title be postponed, it may be helpful to remind your Lordships of the procedure for today's Committee. Except in one important respect our proceedings will be exactly as in a normal Committee of the Whole House. We shall go through the Bill clause by clause, noble Lords will speak standing, all noble Lords are free to attend, and participate, and the proceedings will be recorded in Hansard. But the House has agreed there shall be no Divisions in this Committee. Any issue on which agreement cannot be reached should be considered again at the Report stage when, if necessary, a Division may be called. Unless, therefore, an amendment is likely to be agreed to, it should be withdrawn.

I should also explain what will happen if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting. This Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division bells are rung and will resume after 10 minutes.

Lord Williams of Elvel

Perhaps I can explain how the Opposition intend to conduct themselves today. Your Lordships will be aware that we have had many government amendments produced at a very late stage. It has therefore been agreed through the usual channels that this session of the Committee will be one which will hear government amendments.

As far as the Opposition are concerned, I shall be moving the first group on the grouping list, starting with Amendment No. 4, which the Government have agreed and therefore there will be no question of a Division. After that the Opposition will neither move any amendment nor speak to any other amendment moved by a noble Lord.

The object of the exercise, as agreed through the usual channels, is that we get through the government amendments this afternoon, that the Bill should be re-printed tonight and that the Leader of the House will make a business Statement tomorrow indicating that the Bill, revised by the Committee if the government amendments are accepted, is to be re-printed, and that there will be re-commitment of the reprinted Bill, which means that we shall meet again on Thursday with that re-printed Bill before us. That is the Opposition's view, agreed through the usual channels. I would only say one other thing. I am working on the assumption that there will be no more government amendments tabled in the meantime.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe)

I shall respond briefly to the noble Lord, Lord Williams. He is absolutely correct. The Government have agreed that, in view of the circumstances, we shall seek to move all government amendments today and that the Bill will be re-committed on Thursday following re-printing.

On Question, Title postponed.

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 [Membership of the reserve forces]:

[Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 not moved.]

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 3:

Page 2, line 5, leave out from ("force") to end of line 6.

The noble Earl said: This amendment removes unnecessary words from Clause 2(3), because their effect is achieved by paragraph 1(2) of Schedule 8 to the Bill. Subsection (3) currently provides that men of the volunteer reserve forces will have been listed or re-engaged in those forces. The amendment removes the provision from Clause 2(3) that there will be some men of the Royal Auxiliary Air Force who will have transferred to that force by paragraph 7(2) of Schedule 8. Schedule 8 already makes this provision, so the reference in Clause 2(3) is unnecessary. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3 [Control of numbers in the reserve forces]:

Lord Williams of Elvel moved Amendment No. 4: Page 2, line 10, leave out subsection (I).

The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 4 standing in my name and that of my noble friends Lady Turner of Camden and Lord Judd. It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I also speak to Amendments Nos. 5 to 7, 60 and 61. I should emphasise that the amendments following Amendment No. 4 which I have just mentioned are consequential on Amendment No. 4, and therefore if the Committee agrees to Amendment No. 4, provided I am alert enough on my feet to move Amendments Nos. 60 and 61 when they are called, those will be passed.

This amendment is really quite simple. It seeks to establish parliamentary control of the numbers in the reserve marine forces and put them on the same basis as the Army and Air Force. This amendment, as I understand it, has been agreed by the Government and therefore I hope very much that the Committee will agree to it. I beg to move.

Earl Howe

The Government had already considered whether we should have uniform provisions for controlling the maximum numbers of all the reserve forces. We were initially hesitant in removing a distinction which has been maintained for over 300 years but, having been encouraged by the tabling of this amendment, we gladly support it.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Williams of Elvel moved Amendments Nos. 5 to 7: Page 2, line 14, leave out ("land and air"). Page 2, line 15, leave out ("such a") and insert ("a reserve"). Page 2, line 17, leave out ("any of the reserve land and air forces") and insert ("a reserve force").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

[Amendment No. 8 not moved.]

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4 [Orders and regulations concerning the reserve forces]:

[Amendments Nos. 9 to 11 not moved.]

Clause 4 agreed to.

Clause 5 [Organisation of the reserve forces]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 12: Page 2, line 41, after ("by") insert ("or in accordance with").

The noble Earl said: In speaking to this amendment, I will also speak to Amendment No.17. These amendments will avoid bureaucracy by allowing delegation of procedures to those more closely affected by them, leaving the Defence Council to regulate the over-arching framework within which those procedures are carried out. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 13:

Page 3, line 5, after ("into") insert ("corps,").

The noble Earl said: This amendment inserts "corps" into the list of military bodies into which the reserve land forces may be divided. It was omitted from the original Bill in error. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to. Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6 agreed to.

Clause 7 [Pay, bounty and allowances of the reserve forces]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No.14:

Page 3, line 19, leave out ("officers and men") and insert ("members").

The noble Earl said: Where provisions apply to both officers and men of the reserve force, the general practice throughout the Bill is to refer simply to members of a reserved force, unless there is a specific reason for referring to them separately. In this case there is no such reason and, in the interests of consistency, this amendment is considered desirable. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8 [Pensions]:

[Amendment No. 15 not moved.]

Clause 8, agreed to.

Clause 9 [Enlistment of men in the reserve forces]:

[Amendment No. 16 not moved.]

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 17:

Page 4, line 10, at end insert ("or in accordance with").

The noble Earl said: I spoke to this amendment with Amendment No. 12. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10 [Enlistment of foreign nationals and residents]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 18:

Leave out Clause 10 and insert the following new Clause—

ENLISTMENT OF FOREIGN NATIONALS AND RESIDENTS

(" .—(1) Orders or regulations under section 4 may provide for the enlistment in any reserve force of persons who are not British citizens or who reside outside the United Kingdom.

(2) A person who is not a British citizen or who resides outside the United Kingdom may not be enlisted in a reserve force unless his enlistment is permitted by provision made for the purposes of subsection (1).").

The noble Earl said: This amendment restructures Clause 10 without significantly changing its effect. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.

[Amendment No. 19 not moved.]

Clause 11 [Re-engagement for service]:

[Amendment No. 20 not moved.]

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 21:

Page 4, line 27, leave out ("person") and insert ("man").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 23 and 24, all of which address minor drafting points. The central issue in these amendments is that only men can enlist or re-engage, and the amendments make the drafting more precise. I beg to move.

Lord Mottistone

Does this mean that women cannot re-engage?

Earl Howe

My noble friend will wish to look at Clause 2(4) of the Bill where the word "man" is defined in terms of either sex.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.

3.45 p.m.

Clause 12 [Orders and regulations as to enlistment etc.]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 22:

Page 4, line 34, leave out from ("provision") to end of line 35 and insert ("with respect to the enlistment and re-engagement of men in, and the discharge of men from,").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment I should like to speak also to Amendments Nos. 25, 26, 27 and 28. I believe they are straightforward. Amendment No. 22 is a minor drafting amendment which clarifies the intention in Clause 12 that orders or regulations may make provision concerning discharge.

Amendment No. 25 omits Clause 12(3) which seems on reflection to be unnecessary. The right to specify conditions is already implicit within orders or regulation and does not need to be explicitly expressed in this clause. Amendment No. 26 redrafts Clause 12(4) without changing the intended effect.

Amendments Nos. 27 and 28 revise Clause 13(5) to include men of any of the reserve forces. This permits subsection (5) to be included among similar provisions relating to orders and regulations under Clause 12. Amendment No. 28 changes the order of clauses under Part II by moving Clause 12 to be after Clause 18. As the part appears, there is no clear progression of events from enlistment through to discharge and this minor change permits these events to be grouped together at the beginning of the part with clauses relating to orders and regulation in a group at the end. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 23: Page 4, line 41, leave out ("person") and insert ("man").

The noble Earl said: I spoke to this amendment with Amendment No. 21. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 24:

Page 5, line 1, leave out (''person") and insert ("man").

The noble Earl said: Again, I spoke to this amendment with Amendment No. 21. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 25 to 27:

Page 5, line 5, leave out subsection (3). Page 5, line 8, leave out subsection (4) and insert— ("(4) No order or regulations under section 4 may make provision such as is mentioned in subsection (I) which has the effect, in relation to any person who was a man of a reserve force immediately before the coming into force of the order or regulations concerned—

1. (a) of imposing a new or greater obligation on him without his consent, or
2. (b) of varying or revoking, without his consent, a right to which he is entitled, not being a right exercisable only with the consent of another person or an authority.").

Page 5, line 16, at end insert— ("(5) The term for which, or any limited area within which, a man of a reserve force is liable to serve may not, without his consent, be affected or extended by or in accordance with orders or regulations under section 4.").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

On Question, Whether Clause 12, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?

Lord Craig of Radley

May I just ask a question? In Clause 12(2)(a), line 38, there is again a "person" who has not been changed to "man".

Earl Howe

Will the noble and gallant Lord kindly repeat the reference?

Lord Craig of Radley

Line 38, page 4. I am not sure if my question was answered.

Earl Howe

I was not able to give an answer to the noble and gallant Lord at the time. I do not believe I can do so now. It may be that I shall have to go away and look at the point between now and the time we next convene.

Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 28:

After Clause 12, transpose Clause 12 to after Clause 18.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 13 [Service in the reserve land and air forces on enlistment]:

[Amendments Nos. 29 and 30 not moved.]

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 31:

Leave out Clause 13 and insert the following new clause—

SERVICE IN THE RESERVE LAND AND AIR FORCES ON ENLISTMENT

(" .—(1) Orders and regulations under section 4 may make provision as to the corps, units or bodies into which persons enlisting in a reserve land or air force may be enlisted.

1. (2) Subject to any restriction of choice imposed by or in accordance with orders or regulations under section 4—
   1. (a) a man of the Territorial Army shall be enlisted for service in such corps and posted to such unit as he may select;
   2. (b) a man of the Royal Auxiliary Air Force shall be enlisted for service in such unit as he may select; and
   3. (c) a man enlisted in the Army Reserve or the Air Force Reserve shall be enlisted for service in such military body or air-force body (as the case may be) as he may select.
2. (3) A man of the Territorial Army may not (after his enlistment) be transferred to another corps, or posted or attached to any unit, without his consent.
3. (4) A man of the Royal Auxiliary Air Force may not (after his enlistment) be posted or attached to any unit without his consent.
4. (5) A man of the Army Reserve or Air Force Reserve may not (after his enlistment in or transfer to that force) be appointed, posted, transferred or attached to any military body or air-force body without his consent.
5. (6) Subsections (3), (4) and (5) do not apply to a man of a reserve force while he is in permanent service.").

The noble Earl said: The amendment meets concerns expressed to me by certain noble Lords on the Opposition Benches that the pensions' clause was misleading because possible restrictions on the choice of unit were not given prominence. This redraft rectifies that and improves the drafting of the rest of the clause without significant changes.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 14 [Transfer of men between reserve forces]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 32:

Page 6, line 9, leave out subsection (1) and insert—

("(1) A man serving in an ex-regular reserve force on transfer from the regular services may, with the consent of an authorised officer, enli,4 in another reserve force.

(1A) A man enlisted in a reserve force (including a man enlisted by virtue of subsection (1)) may, with the consent of an authorised officer, enlist in another reserve force.

(1B) On enlisting in a reserve force by virtue of this section the man concerned shall cease to be a member of the reserve force in which he was previously serving.").

The noble Earl said: The amendment expresses the existing provisions of Clause 14 in a clearer style. In speaking to it, I would also like to speak to Amendments Nos. 33, 34, 35 and 251. The clarity extends to a new definition of "term of compulsory service". I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendments 33, 34 and 35:

Page 6, line 12, leave out subsection (2) and insert—

("(2) A man originally serving in an ex-regular reserve force on transfer from the regular services who—

1. (a) ceases to be a member of a reserve force in which he enlisted by virtue of this section without enlisting or re-enlisting in another reserve force; and
2. (b) does so before the date on which his term of compulsory service in the ex-regular reserve force to which he was transferred would have expired if he had not ceased to be a member of it on enlisting in another reserve force,

shall, unless an authorised officer otherwise directs, again be a man of the ex-regular reserve force to which he was transferred from the regular services.").

Page 6, line 24, leave out from first ("of") to end of line 25 and insert—

("(a) one or more named individuals; or

(b) persons of any description specified in the direction.").

Page 6, line 28, at end insert—

("(5) In this Act "term of compulsory service" means the term for which a person is required to serve in an ex-regular reserve force in pursuance of a requirement imposed by or under the Army Act 1955, the Air Force Act 1955 or the Armed Forces Act 1966.").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 15 [General powers to discharge men of the reserve forces]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 36:

Page 6, line 32, leave out ("subsection (1)") and insert ("this section").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 37, 38 and 39. Clause 15 defines the provisions which enable the Defence Council to discharge a man from the reserve forces at any time. The clause is necessary to allow men to be discharged for both routine and exceptional reasons. All these amendments are designed to clarify the discharge provisions under Clause 15. They are straightforward and I hope they will not present any difficulty to the Committee. Amendment No. 36 is a minor drafting amendment. Amendment No. 38 is an improvement on the wording of subsection (4) which provides for a suitable route for appeals against discharge. Two amendments, Amendments Nos. 37 and 39 respectively, remove the existing provision given to commanding officers for discharge, and replace it with a separate new clause. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 37 and 38:

Page 6, line 35, leave out subsection (3).

Page 6, line 37, leave out subsection (4) and insert—

("(4) A man discharged by an authorised officer may appeal to the Defence Council, who may give such directions in his case (including a direction annulling the discharge) as they consider appropriate.").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 39:

After Clause 15, insert the following new clause—

DISCHARGE BY COMMANDING OFFICER

(" .—(1) A commanding officer may discharge any man of a reserve force under his command, in such manner and on such grounds as may be prescribed. (2) A man discharged by his commanding officer may appeal to the Defence Council, who may give such directions in his case (including a direction annulling the discharge) as they consider appropriate.").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 16 [Entitlement to discharge]:

[Amendment No. 40 not moved.]

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 41:

Page 7, line 5, leave out ("compulsory term of') and insert ("term of compulsory").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment I shall speak also to Amendment No. 43. These are minor drafting amendments. Clause 16 specifies the conditions which entitle any man of any reserve force to be discharged. Amendments Nos. 41 and 43 ensure that the wording of Clause 16 is consistent with Clause 14. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 42:

Page 7, line 6, leave out ("(b)") and insert ("(a)").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment I shall speak also to Amendment No. 45. These amendments correct errors in the cross-references in Clause 16 which were caused by a misprint in the labelling of the paragraphs of subsection (2) of that clause.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 43:

Page 7, line 6, leave out from second ("of') to end of line 7 and insert ("his term of compulsory service.").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 44 not moved.]

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 45:

Page 7, line 8, leave out ("(2)(b)") and insert ("(2)(a)").

The noble Earl said: This was spoken to with Amendment No. 42. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 46:

Page 7, line 12, leave out ("only").

The noble Earl said: Amendment No. 46 is a minor drafting amendment relating to the conditions which apply to a man's entitlement to discharge, and in particular the surrender of equipment and other public property. If the word "only" added anything to the sense of subsection (4)(b), it was an unreasonable inference that, say, accidental damage could not be accepted in addition to fair wear and tear. It is better omitted. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 47:

Page 7, line 19, leave out subsection (5).

The noble Earl said: With the leave of the Committee, in moving Amendment No. 47 I shall speak to Amendment No. 50, as together they move a provision on discharge from Clause 16 to Clause 17 where it more logically belongs.

The removal and addition of text means that Clause 17 now provides that a man entitled to discharge under Clause 16 may only be discharged once he is released from permanent or full-time service. Clause 17 had previously applied only to a man who was not in permanent or full-time service. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 48:

Page 7, line 23, after ("man") insert ("of a reserve force").

The noble Earl said: This amendment is another drafting point which provides that the use of the term "man" is qualified as being "of a reserve force". It ensures that the use of "man" in Clause 16(5) is understood.

Clause 16(6) provides that a man who becomes entitled for discharge should be discharged with all convenient speed under the orders and regulations under Clause 4. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 49:

Page 7, line 24, at end insert ("(and shall continue as a man of that force until actually discharged)").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment I shall speak also to Amendments 51 and 52. These amendments are designed to tidy up the text. Amendments Nos. 49 and 52 transfer the substance of Clause 18(1) into Clause 16(6), with some saving of words. Amendment No. 51 is a minor drafting point which clarifies the phrase "that order" in Clause 17(3) by specifying it as a call-out order.

Clause 16(6) thus now provides that a man entitled to discharge shall be discharged with all convenient speed, although he will continue to be a member of a reserve force until actually discharged.

Clause 18 provides for the rights of men on being discharged. The removal of the subsection (1) means its scope is slightly narrower, providing that a man serving outside the United Kingdom who is to be discharged is entitled to be returned to the United Kingdom free of charge. It also provides that he would be entitled to free travel, either to the place where he was attested or to his intended place of residence in the United Kingdom. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.

4 p.m.

Clause 17 [Postponement of discharge]:

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 50 and 51:

Page 7, line 25, at beginning insert— ("( ) Where, at the time he would (apart from this section) become entitled to be discharged under section 16, a man is in permanent service or full-time service under a full-time service commitment, he shall not be entitled to be discharged until he is released from that service."). Page 7, line 39, after ("that") insert ("call-out").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 18 [Rights of men on being discharged]:

The Deputy Chairman of Committees

Amendment No. 52 has been spoken to by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I would remind the noble Lord, Lord Williams, that if it is agreed to, he will be unable to move, as he would not wish to, Amendment No. 53.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 52:

Page 7, line 40, leave out subsection (1).

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 53 not moved.]

Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 19 agreed to.

Clause 20 agreed to.

Clause 21 [Obligatory training of members of the reserve forces]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 54:

Page 9, line 14, leave out ("sections 22 and") and insert ("section").

The noble Earl said: This amendment paves the way for the collection together into a schedule of the provisions of the Bill relating to members of the reserve forces who have reserve rights to retaining their liabilities under the current legislation. In speaking to this amendment I should also like to speak to Amendments Nos. 65, 97, 117 and 187. The schedule has now been formalised but, in deference to the House and the Committee, it has not yet been tabled. The Government will be tabling it at the earliest reasonable opportunity but it is consequential upon these amendments. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 21, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 22 negatived.

Clause 23 agreed to.

Clause 24 [Commitments to a period of full-time service]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 55:

Page 10, line 13. leave out ("undertaking") and Insert ("to undertake").

The noble Earl said: In speaking to this amendment I should also like to speak to Amendment No. 57. These amendments effect no substantive change to the Bill. They are designed to clarify what the reservist does when he enters into the two different types of written commitment, whether for a period of full-time service, or for additional duties. In both cases, the changes make it clear that the written commitment is to perform the period of full-time service in the case of Clause 24, and to perform the duties specified for the period or periods specified in the case of Clause 25. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 56 not moved.]

On Question, Whether Clause 24, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?

Earl Bathurst

Regarding Clause 24, I regret that I did not have the opportunity of being at Second Reading. But it is fairly complicated to read through these duties of a reserve forces member. Will he or she be able to be called out by his unit for a purpose of national emergency or disaster somewhat in the same way as the National Guard in the United States? Is that in here or in these amendments? I am just asking for clarification.

Earl Howe

The Bill provides for the reserve forces to be used in the way the noble Earl suggests. It is a change to the current legislation that has been widely welcomed by the reserve forces.

Earl Bathurst

I thank the noble Earl. It is not totally clear here, but whether the rest of the country is aware of this matter or the TA itself I would wonder. But that is another point.

Lord Craig of Radley

I draw attention once again to the use of the word "person" three times in Clause 24 and suggest that the noble Earl the Minister gives consideration to that.

Earl Bathurst

It is better than "personnel".

Earl Howe

I am grateful to the eagle eye of the noble and gallant Lord and I shall take his point away with me.

Clause 24, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 25 [Additional duties commitments]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 57:

Page 11, line 22, leave out ("undertaking").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 58 not moved.]

Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 26 [Parliamentary control of commitments]:

[Amendment No. 59 not moved.]

Lord Williams of Elvel moved Amendments Nos. 60 and 61:

Page 12, line 24, leave out ("any of the reserve land and air") and insert ("each of the reserve").

Page 12, line 29, leave out from first ("and") to ("force") in line 30 and insert ("men of a reserve").

The noble Lord said: I have already spoken to Amendments Nos. 60 and 61. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 26, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 27 agreed to.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees

I must now make a personal statement. I had not anticipated that we would proceed with such speed with the Bill and I have not marked up my copy of the Marshalled List from this point onwards. Therefore I shall have to ask the Committee's indulgence for any mistakes which may easily trip from my lips. We will hope for the best!

Clause 28 [Special agreements]:

[Amendments Nos. 62 and 63 not moved.]

Clause 28 agreed to.

Clause 29 agreed to.

Clause 30 [Consent of new employer]:

[Amendment No. 64 not moved.]

Clause 30 agreed to.

4.15 p.m.

Clause 31 [Termination of special agreements]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No.65:

Page 15, leave out lines 12 and 13.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 31, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 32 [Call-out notices]:

[Amendments Nos. 66 and 67 not moved.]

Clause 33 agreed to.

Clause 34 [Release from service:]

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 68:

Page 17, line 9, leave out ("his services are no longer required by Her Majesty") and insert ("he is no longer required by Her Majesty to be in that service").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment, I should like to speak also to Amendments Nos. 106, 141 and 164.

Amendment No. 68 is a minor redrafting amendment. It avoids any inference that, at the point of release from permanent service, Her Majesty should dispense with an individual's services altogether. The new words focus on permanent service as the service from which the individual is released. Amendments Nos. 141 and 165 serve an identical purpose. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 69:

Page 17, line 30, leave out ("current") and insert ("relevant").

The noble Earl said: My Lords, in moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 107, 142, and 141.

Amendment No. 69 effects a minor change of wording which fits better with the language of the sections mentioned in Clause 34. Amendments Nos. 107, 142, and 171 achieve the same purpose in Clauses 48, 63 and 75 respectively. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 34, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 35 [Exercise of functions by authorised officers]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 70:

Page 17, line 35, leave out ("authorised").

The noble Earl said: My Lords, in moving this amendment, I wish also to speak to a number of other amendments; namely, Amendments Nos. 72, 73, 74, 109, 110, 111, 112, 143, 144, 145, 146, 177, 178, 179 and 180. The effect of all these amendments is exactly the same—they all remove the word "authorised" from the description of the officers to whom the Secretary of State may delegate his functions. As presently drafted, the Bill provides that the Secretary of State may delegate his powers to authorised officers. Strictly speaking, before the officers concerned have been authorised to exercise the powers the Secretary of State can delegate to them, they are not authorised officers. This implies that the authorisation and delegation are separate processes involving authorisation first, followed by delegation of the appropriate functions. The amendment clarifies that there is no need for the officers concerned to be formally authorised before the Secretary of State can delegate his functions to them. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 71 not moved.]

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 72, 73 and 74:

Page 17, line 36, leave out ("authorised").

Page 17, line 43, leave out ("authorised").

Page 18, line 1, leave out ("authorised").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 35, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 36 [Parliamentary control of numbers and reports]:

[Amendment No. 75 not moved.]

Clause 36 agreed to.

[Amendments Nos. 76 and 77 not moved.]

Clause 37 [Interpretation of Part IV]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 78:

Page 18, line 32, leave out ("for services") and insert ("of service").

The noble Earl said: This is a technical amendment to insert the correct description of a contract of employment into Clause 37 (2). I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 79:

Page 18, line 37, at end insert—

("(3A) Regulations under subsection (3) shall be made by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.").

The noble Earl said: In speaking to Amendment No. 79, I shall also speak to Amendment No. 80. A reservist who enters into a special agreement has to obtain the consent of his employer. He may have more than one employer. To avoid those for whom he works on a casual or informal basis having a disproportionate influence on whether or not he enters into this special agreement, it is considered that he only needs to obtain the consent of an employer for whom he carries out a significant amount of work. The Bill defines a relevant employer as somebody for whom the reservist works for more than 14 hours a week.

The Bill provides for regulations to be made to reduce the figure below 14 hours but not to increase it above that figure. Power is also given to make detailed regulations as to whether a particular contract normally involves more than 14 hours work or not.

The Bill provided for parliamentary control over both sets of regulations through negative resolution procedure. This remains appropriate for the detailed regulations governing the definition of when a particular contract involves 14 hours' service or not. However, the importance of the regulations under subsection (5) which can alter the 14 hours' figure are sufficiently important for the affirmative procedure to apply so that Parliament may have a more ready opportunity to consider their effect on the relationship between the interests of the employer, the reservist and the reserve forces. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 80:

Page 18, line 42, leave out subsection (5) arid insert—

("(5) An order under subsection (4) shall he made by statutory instrument; but no such instrument shall be made unless a draft of it has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.).

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 37, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 38 [Purpose of Part V]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 81:

Page 19, line 4, leave out ("of registered employers").

The noble Earl said: In speaking to this amendment, I also wish to speak to Amendments Nos. 85, 88, 89, 99, 100, 103, 108, 114, 115 and 166. This group affects Clauses 38, 39, 42, 46, 48, 50 and 51 and introduces a new clause. The amendments stem from a question raised with me by noble Lords on the Benches opposite about the need for employers of special members to be registered. Having reviewed the provisions, we have concluded that the concept of registration should be removed. In consequence, we have needed to redefine the relationships between the Secretary of State, employers and their employees which bind the provisions of Part V together. These relationships will now set the scope of persons who are eligible to become sponsored reservists. The definition we intend to adopt is the existence of an arrangement between an employer and the Secretary of State. Such arrangements will usually be contracts, but we have not used the term because that will not invariably be the case. In the absence of the concept of registration, we also need to qualify various references to employers and employees throughout Part V. My Lords, contractors who have agreed to arrangements which involve the sponsored reserve concept may wish to engage subcontractors or self-employed persons. Provided that they meet with our approval, we would not wish to inhibit that. This was catered for under the registered employer mechanism, but the redefinition of relationships requires new provisions to keep the options of prime contractors open.

Amendment No.114, which inserts a new clause, contains these provisions. Also included in this new clause is the existing material dealing with Crown servants which is in Amendment No.116 and that is deleted from Clause 51(2). I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No.82:

Page 19, line 10, leave out from ("force") to end of line 12 and insert ("specified in the agreement.").

The noble Earl said: In speaking to Amendment No. 82, I should also like to speak to Amendments Nos. 91, 92, 93 and 95. This group affects Clauses 38 and 39. These amendments stem from a concern that, although signed, employee agreements will not come into force until a date specified in the agreement. That date could well be after the signing, thus creating a period of no obligation on the part of the parties involved. Amendment No. 91 removes from Clause 39(3) the requirement to stipulate the date on which the agreement is to come into force, in order that it may come into force upon signing.

Amendments Nos. 82 and 92, 93 and 95 are a consequence of this change because when a member of the reserved force became a special member, he was dependent on the date that the agreement came into force. Under the new arrangement this will not always be possible, as in order to be a special member of a reserve force, an employee must—if he is not already a member—first join the force. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 83:

Page 19, line 15, leave out ("and").

The noble Earl said: In speaking to Amendment No. 83 I should also like to speak to Amendments Nos. 84 and 96. This group affects Clauses 38 and 41. Amendments Nos. 84 and 96 draw together in Clause 38(3) the provisions on the scope of orders and regulations made under Clause 4 relating to Part V of the Bill, and logically transfer to the same clause the statutory requirement to consult before making certain regulations. For completeness, Amendment No. 84 also adds two new provisions. The first permits regulations to provide special terms and conditions of service applicable to the period between the cessation of a special member's Clause 41(1) liabilities and his discharge from a reserve force. This provision is required to ensure that appropriate terms and conditions of service can apply to a special member immediately his liabilities to be called and to train cease. I should emphasise that the regulations will not be able to create an obligation on him to train or be called out. The second creates an obligation to consult with representatives of the self-employed before making regulations on terms and conditions of service. This is a logical consequence of expressly extending the coverage of Part V to the self-employed. These provisions are required to ensure that terms and conditions of service are not too onerous for either special members who are self-employed or for any special member immediately his liabilities to be called out and to train cease. Amendment No. 83 is a minor consequential drafting change. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 84:

Page 19, line 18, at end insert—

1. ("(c) enabling the making of requests by a special member (whether before or after ceasing to be subject to the liability mentioned in section 41(1)) for permission to continue as a member of his force on ceasing to be a special member;
2. (d) as to any terms and conditions applicable to a special member who has ceased to be subject to the liability mentioned in section 41(1);
3. (e) as to the terms and conditions on which persons resume or begin service as ordinary members of a reserve force by virtue of section (Discharge etc. of special members no longer liable to be called out or to train).

() Before orders or regulations under section 4 are made as to the terms and conditions of service of special members of a reserve force, the Secretary of State or, in the case of regulations the Defence Council, shall consult—

1. (a) one or more bodies appearing to that authority to represent the interests of employers concerned with the supply of goods or services to the armed forces;
2. (b) one or more bodies or persons appearing to that authority to represent the interests of employees of such employers; and
3. (c) one or more bodies or persons appearing to that authority to represent the interests of self-employed persons concerned with the supply of goods or services to the armed forces.")

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 38, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 39 [Entry into agreements]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 85:

Page 19, line 20, leave out subsection (I) and insert—

("(1) An employee agreement may be entered into by any employee in pursuance of arrangements made between his employer and the Secretary of State").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendments No. 86 and 87 not moved.]

Earl Howe moved Amendments No. 88 and 89:

Page 19, line 22, leave out ("a registered employer") and insert ("an employer who has made any such arrangements").

Page 19, line 23, leave out ("his") and insert ("that").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 90:

Page 19, line 24, at end insert—

("(2A) Where an authorised person is satisfied at the time a person enters into an employee agreement that his employer has consented to his entering into the agreement, the validity of the agreement shall not be affected by any failure to comply with subsection (2); and a document purporting to be a certificate signed by the authorised person stating that he is so satisfied shall be evidence of that fact.

(2B) In subsection (2A) "authorised person" means a person authorised by or in accordance with directions of the Defence Council for the purpose of exercising the functions mentioned in that subsection.

The noble Earl said: This amendment adds to Clause 39 provisions applying to the validity of employee agreements in respect of employer's consent, which are similar to those for special agreements in Clause 29(2), provided a person authorised by the Defence Council for the purpose is satisfied that employer consent has been given. Such things as a technical defect in the giving of consent, or, for example, the presentation of a bogus letter purporting to give an employer's consent, will not invalidate the agreement. However, if that were the case the employer would be able to seek to have the agreement terminated.

The amendment is necessary to protect the armed forces from an unexpected loss of support at perhaps a vital time, resulting from a claim that employer consent was not properly given. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendments No. 91 to 93:

Page 19, line 25, leave out from ("shall") to ("if") in line 29.

Page 19, line 30, after ("agreement,") insert ("specify").

Page 19, line 31, leave out ("concerned") and insert ("specified in the agreement").

The noble Earl said: I have spoken to these amendments. I wish to move them en bloc.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

[Amendment No. 94 not moved.]

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 95:

Page 19, line 39, leave out subsection (5) and insert—

1. ("(5) On entering into an employee agreement a person who is already a member of the reserve force concerned shall become a special member of that force.
2. (6) Where a person entering into an employee agreement is not already a member of the reserve force concerned—
1. (a) he shall become a special member of the force concerned on enlisting in or becoming an officer of that force; but
2. (b) the agreement shall lapse if he has not enlisted in or become an officer of that force on or before the date specified in the agreement.
3. (7) An employee agreement entered into by any person shall terminate—
   1. (a) on his entering into another employee agreement;
   2. (b) on his ceasing to be a member of the reserve force concerned; or
   3. (c) on his resuming service as, or becoming, an ordinary member of that force in accordance with section (Discharge etc. of special members no longer liable to be called out or to train).").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 39, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 40 [Termination of agreements]:

On Question, Whether Clause 40 shall stand part of the Bill?

Earl Howe

In directing your Lordships' attention to Clause 40, perhaps I may point out that Amendment No. 95 logically moves all the provisions contained in Clause 40 into Clause 39(5). I would therefore suggest to the Committee that Clause 40 be omitted.

Clause 40 negatived.

Clause 41 [Service as a special member]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 96:

Page 20, line 21, leave out subsection (3).

The noble Earl said: I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 97:

Page 20, line 36, leave out ("21 and 22") and insert ("and 21").

The noble Earl said: Again, I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 41, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 42 [Cessation of liability to be called out or to train]:

[Amendment No. 98 not moved.]

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 99 and 100:

Page 20, line 43, leave out ("a registered employer") and insert ("the employer whose consent was required to his entry into the employee agreement").

Page 21, line 20, at end insert—

("( ) The Secretary of State shall give a notice under subsection (1)(d) if it appears to him that his arrangements with the special member's employer have ceased to have effect.").

The noble Earl said: These amendments have already been spoken to with Amendment No. 81. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 101:

Page 21, line 25, leave out ("to the Secretary of State").

The noble Earl said: Amendment No. 101 is a drafting change to make the wording consistent. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 42, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 43 [Discharge etc. of special members]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 102:

Leave out Clause 43 and insert the following new Clause—

1. (".—(I) This section applies when a man of a reserve force who is a special member ("the man") ceases by virtue of section 42 to be subject to the liability mentioned in section 41(1).
2. (2) The man shall be discharged with all convenient speed in such manner as may be prescribed unless he enters into a new employee agreement or continues as an ordinary member in accordance with subsection (3) or (4).
3. (3) If the man—
   1. (a) was an ordinary member of the reserve force concerned immediately before becoming a special member; and
   2. (b) was then serving for a term which has not expired,
   he shall resume his service as an ordinary member (and so cease to be a special member) in accordance with orders or regulations under section 4.
CWH 19
4. (4) If the man has been given permission by an authorised officer to continue as a member on ceasing to be a special member he shall, unless he resumes service under subsection (3), become an ordinary member (and so cease to be a special member) in accordance with orders or regulations under section 4.
5. (5) Nothing in this section affects the exercise of any power apart from this section to discharge a man of a reserve force or the operation of section 14(2) in relation to a man who is discharged.").

The noble Earl said: This amendment inserts a new clause which replaces Clauses 43 to 45. It does not change the substance of the Bill in any way. However, it does simplify greatly the provisions relating to the discharge of special members no longer able to be called out or to train, and those relating to individuals continuing in reserve service as ordinary members when their liabilities cease. In essence, the new clause, which the amendment seeks to insert, provides for the practical effects of Clauses 43 to 45 in a greatly simplified form. The simplification achieved is best appreciated by comparing the amended version of Part V with the original tabled version. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 43, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 44 negatived.

Clause 45 negatived.

Clause 46 [Call out of special members]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 103:

Page 22, line 42, leave out ("registered").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendments Nos. 104 and 105 not moved.]

Clause 46, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 47 agreed to.

Clause 48 [Release from service]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 106:

Page 24, line 25, leave out ("his services are no longer required by Her Majesty") and insert ("he is no longer required by Her Majesty to be in that service").

The noble Earl said: I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 107 and 108:

Page 25, line 7, leave out ("current") and insert ("relevant").

Page 25, line 10, leave out ("his employer") and insert ("the employer whose consent was required for his entering into the agreement").

The noble Earl said: I have already spoken to these amendments. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 48, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 49 [Exercise of functions by authorised officers]:

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 109 to 112:

Page 25, line 16, leave out ("authorised").

Page 25, line 17, leave out ("authorised").

Page 25, line 24, leave out ("authorised").

Page 25, line 25, leave out ("authorised").

The noble Earl said: I spoke to these amendments with Amendment No.70. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 49, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 50 [Parliamentary control of numbers and reports]:

[Amendment No. 113 not moved.]

Clause 50 agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 114:

After Clause 50, insert the following new clause—

APPLICATION OF PART V TO CROWN SERVANTS, EMPLOYEES OF

SUB-CONTRACTORS AND SELF-EMPLOYED PERSONS

(".—(1) This Part shall have effect in relation to any Crown servant as if he were employed under a contract of service with such person as may be specified in directions made by the Secretary of State as his employer for the purposes of this Part.

1. (2) In this Part—
1. (a) references to arrangements between an employer and the Secretary of State include references to arrangements between another person and the Secretary of State in pursuance of which the employer supplies, or is to supply, goods or services to or for the benefit of the armed forces; and
2. (b) references to an employer who has made arrangements with the Secretary of State include references to an employer who supplies, or is to supply, goods or services to or for the benefit of the armed forces in pursuance of arrangements made by another person and the Secretary of State.
2. (3) This Part shall have effect in relation to any person who is self-employed as if—
1. (a) references to an employee were references to a self-employed person;
2. (b) references to arrangements between an employer and the Secretary of State were references to arrangements—
1. (i) between the self-employed person and the Secretary of State; or
2. (ii) between another person and the Secretary of State in pursuance of which the self-employed person concerned supplies, or is to supply, goods or services to or for the benefit of the armed forces;
3. (c) any requirement for the written consent of an employer were omitted;
4. (d) section 42(1)(b) were omitted.").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 51 [Interpretation of Part V]:

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 115 and 116:

Page 26, leave out lines 7 to 9

Page 26, line 10, leave out subsection (2).

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 51, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 52 [Liability of members of reserve forces under call-out orders]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 117:

Page 26, line 31, leave out ("section 53").

The noble Earl said: I have already spoken to this Amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment to.

[Amendments Nos. 118 and 119 not moved.]

Clause 52, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 53 [Liability of existing members of reserve and regular forces]:

[Amendment No. 120 not moved.]

On Question, Whether Clause 53 shall stand part of the Bill?

Earl Howe

Your Lordships will recall that my remarks in relation to Clause 21 render this clause unnecessary.

Clause 53 negatived.

Clause 54 [Geographical extent of liability to service on call out]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 121:

Page 27, line 35, leave out subsection (3) and insert—

("(3) The terms of service of a person who makes an election under subsection (2) are modified to the extent required by the election.").

The noble Earl said: The existing subsection (3) of this clause is less than clear. It has therefore been redrafted. That does not have any substantive effect on the working of the Bill. Subsection (2) allows a reservist who has a liability only to serve in the United Kingdom or an area of the United Kingdom to elect to serve worldwide. The amended subsection (3) makes it clear that if the reservist chooses an election varying his terms of service in this way, they are modified to the extent that the election requires. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

4.45 p.m.

Clause 54, as amended, agreed.

Clause 55 [Call out for national danger, great emergency or attack on the UK]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 122:

Page 28, line 14, leave out ("If an order") and insert ("Where an order under subsection (5)").

The noble Earl said: In speaking to this amendment, I would also like to speak to Amendments Nos. 123, 130, 131, 136, 137, 152 and 153. These amendments are tabled in the interests of clarity. They do not have any substantive effect on the Bill. The structure of the Bill means that, for consistency, the same changes must be made to four pairs of clauses.

In each of those clauses there is in the Bill, as drafted, a reference in Clauses 55(6), 57(6) and 71(8) to an order revoking a call-out order, or an order revoking a recall order in the case of 71(8). In each of Clauses 55(6)(a), 57(6)(a), and 71(8)(a), there is a reference to a revocation order. These terms are not defined in the Bill. The amendments simply make it clear that, in each case, the order referred to in each subsection is an order made under Clauses 55(5), 57(5), 59(5) and 71(7) respectively. These clauses deal with call out and recall a nd it is important that their provisions are clear and unambiguous. I therefore commend them to the Committee.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 123:

Page 28, line 18, leave out ("revocation order") and insert ("order under subsection (5)").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

On Question, Whether Clause 55, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?

Earl Bathurst

I wish to refer to the point about call-out at home for emergency service and to ask why it is that under this provision it is Her Majesty the Queen who will make the call-out, whereas elsewhere it is the Secretary of State who does this most tiresome and difficult thing for the reserve forces. Here I see that it is Her Majesty who is referred to. I do not, of course, expect an answer now.

Earl Howe

I believe I can be of help to the noble Earl. The provision to which he refers or for which he is looking is actually contained in Clause 59 of the Bill, which is the provision for the reserve forces to be used in disaster relief and events of that kind. The difference between the two methods of call-out simply reflects the difference in gravity between the two types of event, and Her Majesty's consent is required for the more serious type of event.

[Amendment No. 124 not moved.]

Clause 55, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 56 [Maximum duration of service on call out under section 55]:

[Amendment No. 125 not moved.]

Clause 56 agreed to.

Clause 57 [Call out for warlike operations]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 126:

Page 30, line 6, leave out from ("to") to ("order") in line 7 and insert ("paragraph (a) or to any").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment I should like to speak also to Amendments Nos. 127, 128 and 129. These are minor drafting points which clarify the expression of Clause 57 without changing its effect in the least. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 127 to 131:

Page 30, line 14, leave out from ("(2)(a)") to end of line.

Page 30, line 16, leave out ("that subsection") and insert ("subsection (3)").

Page 30, line 17, leave out ("so specified") and insert ("specified in the call-out order").

Page 30, line 21, leave out ("If an order") and insert ("Where an order under subsection (5)").

Page 30, line 25, leave out ("revocation order") and insert ("order under subsection (5)").

The noble Earl said: I beg to move the amendments en bloc.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 57, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 58 agreed to.

Clause 59 [Call out for certain operations]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 132:

Page 32, line 6, leave out from ("to") to ("order") in line 7 and insert ("paragraph (a) or to any").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment, I should like to speak also to Amendments Nos. 133, 134 and 135. Again, these are minor drafting amendments. They improve the clarity of Clause 59 without changing its meaning. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 133 to 137:

Page 32, line 14, leave out from ("(2)(a)") to end of line.

Page 32, line 16, leave out ("that subsection") and insert ("subsection (3)").

Page 32, line 17, leave out ("so specified") and insert ("specified in the call-out order").

Page 32, line 21, leave out ("If an order") and insert ("Where an order under subsection (5)").

Page 32, line 25, leave out ("revocation order") and insert ("order under subsection (5)").

The noble Earl said: I have already spoken to these amendments. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 59, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 60 [Maximum duration of service on call out under section 59]:

[Amendment No. 138 not moved.]

Clause 60 agreed to.

Clause 61 [Call-out notices]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 139:

Page 34, line 29, leave out second ("under").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment, I should like to speak also to Amendment No. 140. These two amendments need to be made to correct minor errors in the original draft of the Bill. The first amendment merely deletes the word "under" which has been repeated unnecessarily in Clause 61. The second amendment deletes a phrase which was included in error in the same clause. Without the amendment the sense of the subsection is lost. I offer my apologies to the Committee for the error. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 140:

Page 34, line 30, leave out from ("section") to end of line 31.

The noble Earl said: I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 61, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 62 agreed to.

Clause 63 [Period of service and release]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 141:

Page 35, line 31, leave out ("his services are no longer required by Her Majesty") and insert ("he is no longer required by Her Majesty to be in that service").

The noble Earl said: I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 63, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 64 agreed to.

Clause 65 agreed to.

Clause 66 [Exercise of functions by authorised officers]:

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 143 to 146:

Page 36, line 42, leave out ("authorised").

Page 36, line 43, leave out ("authorised").

Page 37, line 5, leave out ("authorised").

Page 37, line 6, leave out ("authorised").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 66, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 67 agreed to.

Clause 68 [Liability to recall]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 147:

Page 37, line 31, after ("been") insert ("released or").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment, I should like to speak also to Amendments Nos. 149, 154, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 181, 188, 189 and 247. Part VII deals with those ex-regular service personnel who are not members of a reserve force but who nevertheless have a liability to recall.

A man who is liable to recall rejoins the appropriate regular service for the period of permanent service, leaves it at the end of that period and reverts to being a civilian. The term for a man leaving a regular force, whether following a regular service or recall, is "discharge".

An officer who is not in a reserve force does not cease to be an officer at the end of a period of permanent service following recall. He remains an officer for as long as his commission persists.

Accordingly, it is not appropriate to use the term "discharge" for officers. Instead, they are "released from permanent service".

The distinction is a technical one. In accordance with the general policy of the Bill, officers and men are, as far as possible, dealt with in a similar manner. The other changes are consequential. It is necessary to have a slightly different definition of "man" in Part VII. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 148 not moved.]

Clause 68, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 69 [Persons who may be recalled under Part VII]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 149:

Page 38, line 17, leave out ("man mentioned in subsection (1)") and insert ("person falling within subsection (1)(b)").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 69, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 70 agreed to.

Clause 71 [Recall for national danger, great emergency or attack on the UK]:

[Amendment No. 150 not moved.]

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 151:

Page 39, line 41, at end insert ("is made").

The noble Earl said: With the leave of the Committee shall take this amendment on its own. It is a minor drafting point inserting two words omitted by mistake. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 152 to 154:

Page 39, line 44, leave out ("When an order") and insert ("Where an order under subsection (7)").

Page 40, line I, leave out ("revocation order") and insert ("order under subsection (7)").

Page 40, line 4, at beginning insert ("released or").

The noble Earl said: I have already spoken to these amendments. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

[Amendment No. 155 not moved.]

Clause 71, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 72 [Maximum duration of service on recall]:

5 p.m.

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 156 to 162:

Page 40, line 16, leave out from ("are") to end of line 17 and insert ("entitled to be released from service (in the case of officers) or discharged (in the case of men)"). Page 40, line 18, leave out subsection (2) and insert— ("(2) A person is (if not released or discharged sooner) entitled to be released from service or discharged when his current service under the recall order, or his current service and any relevant service in aggregate, exceeds 3 years."). Page 40, line 23, after ("be") insert ("released or"). Page 40, line 26, after ("be") insert ("released or"). Page 40, line 35, after ("be") insert ("released or"). Page 40, line 38, after second ("be") insert ("released or"). Page 40, line 41, leave out from ("be") to ("at") and insert ("released from service or discharged").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 72, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 73 and 74 agreed to.

Clause 75 [Period of service and release]:

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 163 and 164:

Page 42, line 34, leave out from ("until") to end of line and insert ("released from service or discharged"). Page 42, line 35, leave out from ("be") to ("with") in line 36 and insert ("released or discharged").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 165:

Page 42, line 37, leave out from beginning to ("or") and insert ("he is no longer required by Her Majesty to be in that service").

The noble Earl said: I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 166:

Page 42, line 37, after ("not") insert ("released or").

The noble Earl said: I was under the impression that I had spoken to this amendment but I am afraid I cannot find it on the list. I am advised that I spoke to it with Amendment No. 147. I beg to move.

Lord Mottistone

I agree with that.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees

Does the noble Earl wish to move the amendment?

Earl Howe

I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 1167:

Page 42, line 38, after ("be") insert ("released or").

The noble Earl said: Amendment No. 167 was spoken to with Amendment No. 166. It is the same amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 168:

Page 42, leave out line 42 and insert— ("(3) The Defence Council may by regulations").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment I should like to speak also to Amendments Nos. 174, 175, 182, 183 and 248. The purpose of these amendments is to ensure that there is appropriate legal authority for the making of regulations for those liable to recall under Part VII. As they are not members of any reserve force, they do not come within the scope of Clause 4. The amendment to Clause 128 is intended to reflect that fact.

Since Clause 4 cannot apply to those liable to recall, it is necessary to provide an appropriate authority for the making of regulations—the Defence Council. As it will be responsible for most of the regulations made for those who are covered by Clause 4, it seems sensible to make it responsible for those not covered by it as well.

The remaining amendments refer to the Defence Council as the appropriate authority for making the regulations concerned, and introduce the words "of any persons" to make it clear that such regulations can only reduce or relax the liability of those persons liable to recall. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 169:

Page 43, line 5, after ("be") insert ("released or").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 170:

Page 43, line I I, after first ("be") insert ("released or").

The noble Earl said: I spoke to this amendment with Amendment No. 147. It is exactly the same in substance as the other amendments that we have already passed. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 171:

Page 43, line 15, leave out ("current") and insert ("relevant").

The noble Earl said: I spoke to this with Amendment No. 69. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 172:

Page 43, line 18, leave out ("discharged from that service") insert ("released from service or discharged").

The noble Earl said: I have already spoken to this amendment and, although the amendments do not feature on the groupings list, I am advised that they were included in the group headed by Amendment No. 147.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees

I am sorry to have to correct the noble Earl but they were not included in that grouping.

Lord Williams of Elvel

I am forsaking my Trappist vows just for this purpose. In the grouping list issued by the Government Whip's Office, Amendment No. 172 heads a group which includes Amendments Nos. 192 and 193, and I hope very much that the Committee will be guided by that.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees

The Chairman is guided by that because he does not recollect that Amendments Nos. 172, 192 or 193 were spoken to when previous amendments were moved, so I suggest that the noble Earl might be good enough to move them. I do not believe he will have too serious trouble.

Earl Howe

I have already moved the amendment.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 173:

Page 43, line 20, leave out ("a service offence") and insert ("an offence under service law").

The noble Earl said: This is a minor drafting amendment which replaces the term "a service offence" with ones that are apparently more familiar to the services. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 75, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 76 [Power to exempt persons from or relax recall liability]:

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 174 and 175:

Page 43, line 25, leave out from beginning to ("relaxing") in line 28 and insert ("The Defence Council may by regulations make provision—

1. (a) securing that, in such cases as may be prescribed, persons otherwise liable to be recalled are exempt from that liability; and
2. (b)")

Page 43, line 29, after ("liability") insert ("of any persons").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 76, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 77 [Exercise of functions by authorised officers]:

[Amendment No. 176 not moved.]

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 177 to 180:

Page 43, line 32, leave out ("authorised"). Page 43, line 33, leave out ("authorised"). Page 43, line 40, leave out ("authorised"). Page 43, line 41, leave out ("authorised").

The noble Earl said: I spoke to these amendments with Amendment No. 70. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 77, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 78 agreed to.

Clause 79 [Interpretation of Part VII]:

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 181 to 183:

Page 44, line 31, at end insert— (""man" means a person of either sex who is of or below the rank or rate of warrant officer;"). Page 44, line 31, at end insert— (""prescribed" means prescribed in regulations made by the Defence Council;"). Page 44, line 36, at end insert— ("(2) Regulations made by the Defence Council under this Part may include incidental or supplementary provision and shall be laid before Parliament after being made.").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 79, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 80 [Individual exemptions etc. from call out]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 184:

Page 45, line 20, leave out ("any other provision") and insert ("any provision of Part VI;

(f) if the original notice was served under Part VI and the person concerned has entered into a special agreement, an exemption from liability to be called out under Part IV.").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment, I should like to speak also to Amendments. Nos. 185 and 186. All these amendments ensure that the provision for regulations enabling individuals to seek deferral of or exemption from call-out before acceptance into service is provided for under the required parts of the Bill. These are technical amendments which ensure that the regulations may cover all the possible combinations of call-out and exemptions. Those added here are exemptions under Part IV if exempted or released from call-out under Part VI. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 185 and 186:

Page 45, line 32, leave out from ("the") to end of line 33 and insert ("same provision of Part VI as the order under which he is currently serving,"). Page 45, line 34, leave out from ("under") to end of line 35 and insert ("any provision of Part VI; (e) if a determination is given that he is entitled to be released from service under Part VI and provision such as is mentioned in section 82(2)(db) applies in his case, an exemption from liability to be called out under Part IV.").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 187:

Page 45, line 36, leave out subsection (5).

The noble Earl said: I spoke to this amendment with Amendment No. 54. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 80, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 81 [Individual exemptions etc. from recall]:

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 188 and 189:

Page 45, line 44, after ("to") insert ("release or"). Page 46, line 15, leave out from ("be") to end of line 16 and insert ("released from service or discharged").

The noble Earl said: I spoke to these amendments with Amendment No. 147. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 81, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 82 [Effect of exemptions etc.]:

5.15 p.m.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 190:

Page 46, line 41, leave out ("in relation to any") and insert ("for").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment I should like to speak also to Amendment No. 191.

Clause 82 defines the main scope of the exemption regulations. I believe that Amendments Nos. 190 and 191 to the clause are straightforward and should not present any difficulties.

Amendment No. 190 is a minor drafting amendment. Amendment No. 191 is more complicated, but again has been made to improve the clause. Its main effect is to permit an individual who is released or discharged after making an application under Clauses 80 or 81 to be Treated for the purposes of Clause 31 as if he had never been accepted into the service. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 191:

Page 46, leave out lines 43 to 47 and insert ("to lapse as mentioned in paragraph (c);

1. (da) for persons released from service under Part IV in pursuance of a determination of entitlement to release to be treated for the purposes of section 31(3) as if they had not been in that service and released;
2. (db) for persons released from service under Part VI in pursuance of a determination of entitlement to release to be treated for the purposes of section 3l(I)(d) as if they had not been in that service;").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 82, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 83 [Regulations under sections 80 and 81: supplementary]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 192:

Page 47, line 38, leave out ("58(10)") and insert ("58(11)").

The noble Earl said: The amendment is a minor one and ensures that Clause 83 (3)(b)(i) has the correct cross-reference in order that its provisions can operate correctly. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 193:

Page 47, line 44, after ("be") insert ("released or").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 83, as amended, agreed to.

[Amendment No. 194 not moved.]

Clause 84 agreed to.

Clause 85 [Payments to individuals in respect of call out or recall]:

[Amendment No. 195 not moved.]

Clause 85 agreed to.

Clause 86 agreed to.

Clause 87 [Regulations under sections 85 and 86: supplementary]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 196:

Page 50, line 11, leave out subsection (5) and insert—

("( ) The regulations may also make provision for claims by or in respect of—

1. (a) persons recalled under the Reserve Forces Act 1980, or
2. (b) officers recalled otherwise than under this Act,

corresponding to the provision which may be made for claims by or in respect of persons recalled under Part VII.").

The noble Earl said: This amendment restates the provision for those liable to be recalled under existing legislation but without mention of call-out. This is because recall will not be included in the new transitional schedule that I mentioned earlier. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 87, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 88 [Power to suspend payments due to national danger or great emergency]:

[Amendment No. 197 not moved.]

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 198:

Page 50, leave out lines 36 and 37 and insert ("which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament").

The noble Earl said: This amendment addresses concerns expressed to me privately by noble Lords that the process of suspending payments under Clause 88(4) is too ponderous.

The proposed amendment ensures that any order to suspend payments can take immediate effect. Reflecting the seriousness of such a decision, it continues to provide for Parliament to approve such a step under the negative resolution procedure. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 88, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 89 to 93 agreed to.

Clause 94 [Membership of tribunals etc.]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 199:

Page 52, line 34, leave out ("assessor") and insert ("officer").

The noble Earl said: This is a very minor drafting point. Clause 94(2) refers to "officer". The word "assessor" was introduced in error. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 94, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 95 [General power to make rules]:

[Amendments Nos. 200 and 201 not moved.]

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 202:

Page 53, line 7, at beginning insert ("enabling or").

The noble Earl said: This amendment avoids any suggestion that hearings of the Appeal Tribunal will usually be held in private. That option must have an appeal available. Evidence might have a security classification, be commercially sensitive or indeed be intensely private in nature. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 95, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 96 agreed to.

Clause 97 [Offences against orders and regulations under section 4]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 203:

Page 53, line 40, leave out ("such orders or regulations") and insert ("orders or regulations under section 4").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment, I wish to speak also to Amendments Nos. 204, 205 and 206. These amendments do not in any way extend the scope of the offences provided in Clause 97. They simply close a possible loophole which might have arisen if the various elements of the offence had been provided for in separate orders or regulations. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 204 to 206:

Page 53, line 44, leave out ("such orders or regulations") and insert ("orders or regulations under section 4"). Page 54, line 2, leave out ("such orders or regulations") and insert ("orders or regulations under section 4"). Page 54, line 4, leave out ("such orders or regulations") and insert ("orders or regulations under section 4").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 207:

Page 54, line 6, leave out ("and liable to be tried") and insert ("triable"). The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 208. These are two minor amendments which save a few words in the Bill. They do not change the substance. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 208:

Page 54, line 10, leave out from ("punishment") to end of line 11 and insert ("provided for by service law;").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 209:

Page 54, leave out lines 18 and 19.

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 238. These amendments simply move a proposition from Clause 97 to Clause 107. In Clause 107 it applies to offences under Clause 97 and also under other clauses. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 97, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 98 [Failure to attend for service, duty or training]:

[Amendment No. 210 not moved.]

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 211:

Page 54, line 36, leave out from ("himself") to ("or") in line 37 and insert ("to a person specified in the call-out notice or to any other authorised officer").

The noble Earl said: This amendment changes the wording of the offence in Clause 98 to match the wording used when call-out notices are defined; for example, in Clause 61(3). I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 212:

Page 54, line 42, at end insert—

1. ("(I A) Subsection (1) applies to a person liable to recall as it applies to a member of a reserve force—
1. (a) with the substitution for references to a call-out notice of references to a recall notice; and
2. (b) as if paragraph (a) of that subsection referred to the time and place specified in the recall notice under section 73(3)(c).
2. (1B) An offence under this section is triable by court-martial or summarily by a civil court.").

The noble Earl said: Persons liable for recall under the Reserve Forces Act 1980 commit an offence if they fail to comply with a recall notice which is served on them; but the offence of failure to attend for service, etc. under Clause 98 of this Bill only applies to members of reserve forces. Persons liable to recall are not members of a reserve force. This amendment cures the omission by treating those served with a recall notice as if they were members of a reserve force served with a call-out notice. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 213:

Page 54, line 43, leave out subsections (2) to (5).

The noble Earl said: In speaking to Amendment No. 213 I shall speak also to Amendment No. 214. I shall not yet speak to Amendment No. 215. These two amendments make no substantive change to the Bill. They have two purposes: the first is to separate the offences in the new Clause 98(a) from those in the existing Clause 98 as amended. The second is to improve clarity. No substantive change is involved. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 98, as amended, agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 214:

After Clause 98, insert the following new clause—

FAILURE TO ATTEND FOR DUTY OR TRAINING

.—(1) A member of a reserve force who has entered into a full time service commitment or an additional duties commitment and, without leave lawfully granted or reasonable excuse, fails to appear at the time and place at which he is required to attend—

1. (a) in the case of a full-time service commitment, to begin the period of full-time service contemplated by the commitment;
2. (b) in the case of an additional duties commitment, to begin a period of service under the commitment,

is guilty, according to the circumstances, of desertion or absence without leave.

1. (2) A member of a reserve force who—
CWH 33
1. (a) is required to undergo a period of training in accordance with section 21, a special agreement or an employee agreement (or any other requirement applicable to special members), and
2. (b) fails, without leave lawfully granted or reasonable excuse, to appear at any time and place at which he is required to attend,
2. is guilty of absence without leave.
3. (3) An offence under this section is triable by court-martial or summarily by a civil court.").

The noble Earl said: I have spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 99 [Punishment etc. of offences of desertion or absence without leave]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 215:

Page 55, line 24, leave out subsections (1) and (2) and insert— ("( ) An offence under section 37 or 38 of the Army Act 1955 or the Air Force Act 1955 or section 16 or 17 of the Naval Discipline Act 1957 (offences under service law of desertion or absence without leave) committed by a member of a reserve force is triable summarily by a civil court as well as by court-martial. ( ) A member of a reserve force convicted by court-martial of an offence under section 98(1) or (Failure to attend for duty or training)(I) is punishable as for an offence under service law of absence without leave (as the case may be). ( ) A member of a reserve force convicted by a civil court of—

1. (a) an offence under section 98(1) or (Failure to attend for duty or training)(1), or
2. (b) an offence under service law of desertion or absence without leave,

is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale (or both). ( ) A person convicted of an offence under section (Failure to attend for duty or training)(2) is liable—

1. (a) if convicted by court-martial, to the same punishment as for an offence under service law of desertion or absence without leave;
2. (b) if convicted by a civil court, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale (or both).

( ) A person convicted by a civil court of an offence mentioned in this section, if sentenced to a term of imprisonment or if such a term is imposed in default of payment of any fine, is liable to be taken into military, air-force or naval custody (as the case may require).").

The noble Earl said: I am grateful to the Committee for allowing me to depart from the groupings as published. This amendment is introduced to improve the clarity of the Bill by referring explicitly to offences of desertion or absence without leave, rather than only referring back to the appropriate sections of the Service Discipline Acts, and to make some minor consequential changes arising out of the revision of Clause 98, and the insertion of a new Clause 98(a).

The purpose of the Clause, which is to specify the maximum penalties for offences of desertion or absence without leave, remains unchanged. It also removes the erroneous references to "man" in subsections (1)(a), (b) and (c), and subsection (2) of Clause 99 as drafted. It is the intention that all offences should apply equally to officers and men, and the amended draft reflects this policy by making the offences apply to members of a reserve force. There is no other substantive change.

I should like to apologise to the Committee for the error in the original text. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 216:

Page 55, line 44, leave out ("is found guilty") and insert ("or a person liable to recall is convicted").

The noble Earl said: In speaking to this amendment I should like to speak also to Amendments Nos. 217 to 220 inclusive and 222 to 225 inclusive. Some of these amendments are consequential to an earlier amendment which made the offences under Clause 98 apply to those liable to recall, as they already did to members of the reserve forces. The other change is in Clause 102 and modifies the clause so that procuring or inciting a member of a reserve force to become an absentee without leave is an offence, as it already is in connection with a deserter. The other amendments make a number of minor drafting changes. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 217:

Page 55, line 47, after ("of') insert ("release from permanent service or").

The noble Earl said: I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 99, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 100 agreed to.

Clause 101 [Treatment of deserters etc.]:

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 218 to 220:

Page 56, line 7, at end insert—

("(1A) Schedule 2 shall apply to a person liable to recall who is a suspected deserter or absentee without leave by virtue of this Part and is not otherwise subject to service law as it applies to a member of a reserve force."). Page 56, line 8, after ("force") insert ("or a person liable to recall"). Page 56, line 11, leave out ("as provided by section 98") and insert ("in accordance with this Part").

The noble Earl said: I have already spoken to these amendments. I beg to move en bloc.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 101, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 102 [Inducing a person to desert or absent himself]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 221:

Page 56, line 13, leave out from ("means") to end of line 16 and insert— ("(a) procures or persuades, or attempts to procure or persuade. a member of a reserve force to commit an offence of desertion or absence without leave;").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 222 to 225:

Page 56, line 19, after ("deserter") insert ("or an absentee without leave"). Page 56, line 20, after ("deserter") insert ("or absentee").

Page 56, line 22, leave out from ("offence") to end of line 24 and insert— ("(1A) A person who,

1. (a) procures or persuades, or attempts to procure or persuade, a person liable to recall to commit an offence of desertion or absence without leave; or
2. (b) knowing that such a person is about to commit such an offence, aids or assists him in so doing; or
3. (c) knowing a person liable to recall to be a deserter or absentee without leave, procures or persuades or assists him to remain a deserter or absentee, or assists in his rescue from custody,

is guilty of an offence.

(1B) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) or (IA) is liable on summary conviction—

1. (a) in the case of an offence involving an offence of desertion or a deserter, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale (or both); and
2. (b) in the case of an offence of absence without leave or an absentee without leave, to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.").

Page 56, line 25, leave out subsection (2).

The noble Earl said: I have already spoken to these amendments. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 102, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 103 [Record of illegal absence]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 226:

Page 56, line 33, leave out ("the man's") and insert ("his").

The noble Earl said: With this amendment I should like to speak to Amendments Nos. 227 and 231. These are minor drafting amendments. By replacing the words "man" or "man's" with pronouns they allow the effect of "member" in the first line of Clause 103(1) to be carried through the clause. The result is that the procedures apply to officers as well as to men. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 227:

Page 56, line 34, leave out ("the man") and insert ("he").

The noble Earl said: I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 228:

Page 56, line 43, leave out from ("Act") to end of line 44 and insert ("fails, without leave lawfully granted, to do anything mentioned in section 98(1)(a), (b) or (c);

(aa) having entered into a full-time service commitment fails, without leave lawfully granted, to appear at any time or place at which he is required to attend to begin the period of full-time service contemplated by the commitment;

(ab) having entered into an additional duties commitment fails, without leave lawfully granted, to appear at any time or place at which he is required to begin a period of duty under the commitment;").

The noble Earl said: Clause 103 provides for the investigation and recording of unlawful absences. It is only right that those who have committed themselves to perform full-time service or additional duties should be subject to these provisions in the same way as persons who are called out are. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 229:

Page 57, line 1, leave out ("in accordance with section 21").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment I shall speak also to Amendment No. 230. The omission of the reference to Clause 21 covered by Amendment No. 229 means that Clause 103 applies to training that is required as opposed to voluntary under any clause. The amendment rectifies that. The clarification of the word "fails" in Amendment No. 230 is simply a point of drafting. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 230 and 231:

Page 57, line 2, leave out ("fails") and insert ("as mentioned in section (Failure to attend for duty or training)(2) fails, without leave lawfully granted,"). Page 57, line 4, leave out ("the man's") and insert ("his").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 103, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 104 [Trial of offences]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 232:

Page 57, line 8, leave out from ("which") to end and insert ("is by virtue of this Part triable").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 233:

Page 57, line 11, leave out ("his commanding officer") and insert ("an officer having power to deal with the case)").

The noble Earl said: This is another small, technical amendment. It takes account of the fact that various classes of case may under service law be disposed of summarily by officers who are not the commanding officer. For minor offences, an officer subordinate to the commanding officer may conduct the proceedings. In some other cases, a superior officer is involved. I beg to move.

Lord Mottistone

A subordinate officer when I was in the navy did not just mean an officer who was subordinate. My noble friend may care to examine the matter to see whether the right word is being used.

Earl Howe

I may have used the wrong expression in connection with the navy. If so, I apologise to my noble friend. However, I believe that the sense of the amendment is clear. It refers to "an officer having power to deal with the case". I was merely trying to clarify what that meant and, if I did so in incorrect naval terms I apologise to the Committee.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 104, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 105 [Jurisdiction of courts]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 234:

Page 57, leave out lines 25 to 34 and insert ("imposed under this Part by a court-martial shall be paid to such authority as may be prescribed.").

The noble Earl said: This amendment replaces the long and rather outdated wording of Clause 105(3) with something shorter having the same practical effect. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 105, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 106 [Trial of offences by civil court]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 235:

Page 57, line 42, leave out from ("under") to ("committed") in line 43 and insert ("service law (other than an offence of desertion or absence without leave)").

The noble Earl said: With leave of the Committee I shall speak to this amendment on its own. It is a small technical change to avoid any overlap between Clause 106 and Clause 99 as amended. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 106, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 107 [Offences triable by court-martial or civil court]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 236:

Page 58, line 3, after ("court-martial") insert ("(or by an officer having power to deal summarily with the case)").

The noble Earl said: I shall also speak to Amendment No. 237. Amendment No. 236 is a minor drafting amendment, as is the other. It draws the effect of subsection (2) into subsection (I) and clarifies the implications at the same time. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 237 and 238:

Page 58, line 4, leave out subsection (2),

Page 58, line 6, at end insert—

("( ) It is immaterial, for the purposes of any provision of this Part making an offence triable by court-martial, whether the person concerned is otherwise subject to service law.").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 107, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 108 [Time for institution of proceedings]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 239:

Page 58, line 11, leave out ("punishable under this Part") and insert ("under this Act or under service law").

The noble Earl said: This is a minor technical change which allows for two points. First, there are offences not just in Part X but also, for example, in Part VIII, to which Clause 108 should apply. Secondly, it makes explicit the previous implication that Clause 108 applies to offences under service law. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 108, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 109 [Evidence]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 240:

Page 58, line 26, leave out ("Part") and insert ("Act").

The noble Earl said: This amendment extends the proposition about evidence in Clause 109(3) to documents covered by all of the Bill instead of just Part X of the Bill. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 109, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 110 to 112 agreed to.

Clause 113 [General duties of associations]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 241:

Page 59, line 31, leave out ("military") arid insert ("land").

The noble Earl said: This is a minor drafting amendment. The associations provide no real support to the Royal Navy and Royal Marines, hence the need to refer to land and air forces. Some support is provided to the reserve naval and marine forces and paragraph (b) provides for this. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 113, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 114 [Powers and duties assignable to associations]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 242:

Page 60, line 22, after ("or") insert ("on duty or when").

The noble Earl said: Clause 114(2) describes the powers and duties which may be transferred to the TAVRAs and goes on to list these. This amendment revises the ambit of paragraph (a) which provides for the organisation of units of the Territorial Army and Royal Auxiliary Air Force. The amendment revises paragraph (a) so that it provides that the associations shall not be responsible for the organisation of units when on duty as well as when training or in permanent service, which is already provided under paragraph (a). I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 114, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 115 to 117 agreed to.

Clause 118 [Regulations as to associations]:

[Amendments No. 243 and 244 not moved.]

Clause 118 agreed to.

Clause 119 agreed to.

Clauses 120, 121 and 122 agreed to.

Clause 123 [Safeguard of employment for members of reserve forces]:

[Amendment No. 245 not moved.]

Clause 123 agreed to.

Clauses 124 and 125 agreed to.

Clause 126 [Absence for voting]:

[Amendment No. 246 not moved.]

Clause 126 agreed to.

Clause 127 agreed to.

Clause 128 [Interpretation]:

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 247 and 248:

Page 65, line 16, after (""man"") insert ("(except in Part VII)").

Page 65, line 18, after ("means") insert ("(except in Part VII)").

The noble Earl said: I have already spoken to Amendments Nos. 247 and 248. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 249:

Page 65, line 22, at end insert ("(but does not include the Royal Marines)").

The noble Earl said: This minor amendment corrects the definition of "regular army". The Army Act deals with the regular forces, which are the regular army and the Royal Marines. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 250:

Page 65, line 30, at end insert—

(""special member" means a member of a reserve force who is, by virtue of Part V, a special member of that force;").

The noble Earl said: Amendment No. 250 adds a definition of a term used in the Bill. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 251:

Page 65, line 30, at end insert—

(""term of compulsory service" has the meaning given by section 14(5);").

The noble Earl said: I spoke to this with Amendment No. 32. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 128, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 129 agreed to.

On Question, Whether Clause 130 shall stand part of the Bill?

Earl Howe

The Committee will recall the remarks which accompanied my coverage of Clause 21 and will realise that this Clause is now unnecessary.

Clause 130 negatived.

Clauses 131 to 133 agreed to.

Schedule 1 [Enlistment]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 252:

Page 68, leave out lines 16 to 25 and insert ("by a person with—

1. (a) parental responsibility (within the meaning of the Children Act 1989 or the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995) for the person offering to enlist; or
2. (b) parental responsibilities (within the meaning of section 1(3) of the Children (Scotland) Act 1995) in relation to that person.").

The noble Earl said: This amendment replaces a long description of the person who should give consent to the enlistment of a person under the specified minimum age, with something much shorter. The new words rest on the Children Act 1989, and the equivalent provisions in Scotland and Northern Ireland. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 253:

Page 69, line 10, leave out from ("3") to the end of line 11.

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment I shall speak also to Amendment No. 258. These two amendments remove references to the receipt of pay by certain reservists, affecting their enlistment status. They were carried forward from the 1980 Act, but on reflection that seems anomalous. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 254 not moved.]

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 255:

Page 69, line 36, leave out from beginning to second ("the") and insert ("If no claim under sub-paragraph (3) or (4) is made within 3 months from the date on which he signed the declaration,").

The noble Earl said: With the leave of the Committee I shall also speak to Amendments Nos. 256 and 257. These amendments improve the slightly archaic wording of Schedule 1(4)(6), which was derived from the Reserve Forces Act 1980. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendments Nos. 256, 257 and 258:

Page 69, line 37, leave out from ("deemed") to ("to"). Page 69, line 40, leave out ("in pursuance of") and insert ("under"). Page 69, leave out lines 42 to 47.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 259:

Page 70, line 3, after ("knowingly") insert ("or recklessly").

The noble Earl said: This small amendment makes the Schedule 5 offence consistent with others in the Bill and with usual practice. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 260:

Page 70, line 24, at end insert—

("(2) In this paragraph "civil court" has the same meaning as in Part X.").

The noble Earl said: This amendment shows the need to include a separate definition of civil court in Schedule 1. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule 2 [Deserters and absentees without leave]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 261:

Page 70, line 44, leave out ("land or air").

The noble Earl said: This amendment completes the process of making Schedule 2 apply equally to all the reserve forces. The words "land and air" escaped the draftsman's blue pencil when the schedule was prepared. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees

There is an error in the Marshalled List. I should call Amendment No. 262 before Amendment No. 261A.

[Amendment No. 262 not moved.]

[Amendment No. 261A not moved.]

Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule 3 [Evidence]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 263:

Page 73, line 16. leave out ("criminal"). The noble Earl said: This minor amendment allows for the fact that not all the proceedings covered by Schedule 3 could properly be described as criminal. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 3, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule 4 [Provisions of schemes for the constitution of associations]:

Lord Mottistone moved Amendment No. 264:

Page 76, line 47, leave out ("or Deputy Governor").

The noble Lord said: As I have just completed a happy appointment as Governor of the Isle of Wight I feel that I might take some of your Lordships' time to explain the reasons for the amendment. I was most surprised to see provision made for Deputy Governors to be ex officio members of relevant territorial associations. Your Lordships may be interested to know that Lords, Captains and Governors of the Isle of Wight with similar responsibilities to those of Lord Lieutenants with regard to ensuring loyalty to the Crown and where necessary raising the militia were first appointed by Norman kings in 1066, some 500 years before Lord Lieutenants were introduced by the Tudors. There is some record in the Isle of Wight of Deputy Governors being appointed in the 17th century, but none in this century by either Princess Beatrice, who was Governor for 50 years from the 1890s to her death in the 1940s. or her immediate successor in the 1950s, the Duke of Wellington, or his successor in the sixties and seventies, Lord Mountbatten.

From studying earlier legislation, it seems to me that the provision for Deputy Governors was formally introduced into law at the request of Viscount Eversley, an ex-Speaker of another place, whose titles died with him. He was the Governor of the Isle of Wight in the 1880s at the time of the passing of the Militia Act 1882 which introduced Deputy Governors in a large way.

So far as we know in the Isle of Wight, none of the Viscount's successors has found it necessary to implement the provisions of the Act with regard to deputies.

It seems to me that there is therefore no need for mention in the Bill. It is perhaps of interest' that Governors are appointed by the Queen. They have sometimes been royal persons, sometimes distinguished persons from mainland England and sometimes even islanders like myself. The present Queen takes great personal interest in these appointments and the governorship of the Isle of Wight reverts to the Crown between appointments. That is the case at present, as I retired about a month ago. I beg to move.

Earl Howe

My noble friend Lord Mottistone is an acknowledged and respected champion of the Isle of Wight and having listened to his very cogent argument I am perfectly content on behalf of the Government to accept his amendment. I might add that the reference to the Deputy Governor in this context first appeared in Section 39(4) of the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act 1907, so my noble friend's amendment would achieve a long overdue correction of the statute book on this small, but of course highly significant, point.

Lord Mottistone

I have to intervene to say that the first time that the Deputy Governors were mentioned was in Section 49 of the Militia Act 1882!

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 265:

Page 77, line 8, after ("Marines") insert ("or the Royal Marines Reserve").

The noble Earl said: I will speak also, with the leave of the Committee, to Amendment No. 266. These minor amendments make it explicit rather than implicit that current or former membership of the Royal Naval Reserve and Royal Marines Reserve is a qualification for the appropriate category of membership of the Territorial, Auxiliary and Volunteer Reserve Associations. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 266:

Page 77, line 14, after ("Navy") insert ("or the Royal Naval Reserve").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 4, as amended, agreed to.

Schedules 5 to 8 agreed to.

Schedule 9 [Minor and consequential amendments]:

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 267:

Page 90, leave out lines 1 to 8.

The noble Earl said: This amendment removes material which is now covered more fully in Schedule 7. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 9, as amended, agreed to.

The remaining schedule agreed to.

Lord Williams of Elvel

We are corning to the end of this rather extraordinary Committee. I am grateful, if I may say so, to the Chairman for conducting proceedings of a somewhat farcical nature in the way that he has done. I hope now that the Government have a Bill after more than two hours of the Committee's time. I hope the Government now have a Bill that they can seriously put before the Committee. As the Bill has only been in draft for about six months, and in consultation for perhaps longer than that, that of course is an achievement. But I hope very much that on Thursday we can get on to the main business of the Committee which is discussing Opposition and other noble Lords' amendments and arguments to the Government's Bill.

Earl Howe

I am conscious of the number of government amendments and, of course, that is to be regretted, but I also feel that the noble Lord is being a little less than generous in regard to the amendments brought forward specifically at his behest which we have made great efforts to include. While I take his point and I regret the time that this has taken, I do believe that the majority of the amendments which I have moved this afternoon have been of a minor, technical or drafting nature which have been quickly dealt with.

Bill to be reported with amendments.

The Committee adjourned at twenty minutes before six o'clock.