§ Amendments made: No. 210, in page 54, line 4, after ' Dwellings ', insert ' Acquisition'.
§
No. 212, in page 54, line 15, column 3, at beginning, insert—
'In section 17(2)(b) and (3), the words "with the consent of the Secretary of State".'.
§
No. 213, in page 54, line 22, column 3, at end add—
'In section 177(1) the words from "artistic interest" to the end.
In section 177(2) the words ", and if required by the Secretary of State shall," and the words from ", and the authority" to the end.'.
§
No. 214, in page 54, line 31, column 3, at beginning insert—
'In section 5, in subsection (4), the words from the beginning to "fulfilled," and subsection (5).'.
§
No. 215, in page 54, line 31, column 3, leave out
', (3) and (4) ' and insert ' and in subsection
(2) the words from ' which ' to the end.'.
§
No. 219, in page 54, line 42, column 3, at end add—
'In section 111(1) the words "but which is not a controlled heritable security".'.
§
No. 216, in page 54, line 32, column 3, after ' 9,' insert
'(1). Section 24. Sections 29 and 30.'.
§
No. 217, in page 54, line 32, column 3, at end add—
'In section 36, the definition of "improvement".'.
§
No. 218, in page 54, line 34, column 3, add—
'In section 80(2) the words "(whether a controlled or regulated tenancy)".'.
§
No. 220, in page 54, line 51, column 3, at end add—
'Section 135(1).'.
§
No. 221, in page 54, line 52, column 3, at end add—
750
'In Schedule 3(i) in Case 5 the words from "or, in" to "1939," ; (ii) Case 6 (iii) in Case 9 the words "or as the case may be, Part V".'.
§
No. 222, in page 54, line 55, column 3, at end add—
'Schedules 16 and 17.
In Schedule 19, paragraphs 9, 10, 14(1)(c) and 19(1).'.
§ No. 223, in page 55, line 3, column 3, after ' paragraph 1 ', insert ' (1)'.
§
No. 224, in page 55, line 6, column 3, leave out ' in paragraph 4 ' and insert
'paragraphs 1(6) and 1(7) and 4'.
§ No. 225, in page 55, line 6, at end add—
| '1972 c. 46. | Housing financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1972. | In section 50, the definition of "controlled tenancy".' |
§ No. 231, in page 55, line 13, at end add—
| '1974 c. 51. | Rent Act 1974. | Section 1(3).'. |
§ No. 266, in page 55, line 6, at end add—
| '1972 c. 46 | Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1972. | In section 61(3 the words "subject to section 64 of this Act". |
| In section 62, in subsection (2) the words "and 64", in subsection (4) the words "or section 64(4)". | ||
| Sections 64 and 65'. |
§ No. 227, in page 55, line 8, at end add—
| '1974 c. 44 | Housing Act 1974. | In section 18, in subsection (2) the words "in such form as may be prescribed" and subsection (5).'. |
§ No. 228, in page 55, line 10, after 7 ', insert ' in subsection (1) the words "by that owner,"'.
§
No. 229, in page 55, line 12, column 3, at end add—
'In section 8, in subsection (1) the words "and in subsection (2) below" and subsection (2).
In section 9, in paragraph (b) of subsection (5) the words "by a member of the agricultural population".'.
§
No. 230, in page 55, line 13, at end add—
'In section 49(3), in the definition of "owner", the words "but in Part 1 includes such a lessee as is mentioned in section 2(3)(a) of this Act".'.
§ No. 232, in page 55, line 13, at end add—
| '1975 c. 21 | Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975. | In Schedule 7C, in the entry relating to the Housing (Scotland) Act 1966, in the first collumn, the words from "when" to the end of the column.' |
§ —[Mr. Rifkind.]
§ Motion made, and Question proposed. That the Bill be now read the Third time.
11.38 pm§ Mr. Russell Johnstonrose——
§ Mr. JohnstonIt is perfectly proper that an extremely important piece—
§ Mr. Stanley Orme (Salford, West)The hon. Member has not been present during the debate.
§ Mr. JohnstonI have been here all night. I would also point out to the right hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme), who is interrupting from a sedentary position on the Opposition Front Bench, that I was here at 2 o'clock this morning. I see no reason, simply because the right hon. Gentleman wishes to make rude objections from a sedentary position, why I should be denied the opportunity to make a contributioin on an important piece of Scottish legislation.
The House will recall that the Liberal Party voted for the Second Reading of the Bill.
§ Mr. Robert Kilroy-Silk (Ormskirk)Typical.
§ Mr. JohnstonIn speaking in that debate, I made it clear that we had significant reservations and, unless these were met in Committee, we could not support Third Reading—
§ Mr. JohnstonIf right hon. and hon. Gentlemen persist in interrupting, I 752 shall merely speak for longer. I do not intend to be intimidated.
I remind the House of what I said on 14 January, in concluding my speech on Second Reading :
The Secretary of State talked about absolute rights to purchase. I do not believe that there are absolute rights that are not necessarily conditioned by responsibilities to the community. One has also to protect the rural situation … Without these changes we cannot support the Bill is whole despite the fact that we accept the idea of sale in principle and welcome the proposals contained in other parts of the Bill."—[Official Report, 14 January 1980 ; Vol. 976, c. 1275.]That remains our position.The broad object of the Bill is radical. I compliment the Government on that. I welcome the intention of creating conditions in Scotland in which individual house ownership can be greatly extended. I believe that the proportion of public sector housing in Scotland is excessive. I accept that dramatic action is necessary to change the position. However, I do not accept that an across-the-board approach, which ignores existing housing needs and demands, and in the rural context ignores fundamental social criteria, is the right and just way to proceed. That fundamental flaw leads me, with regret, to vote against the Bill, although I am entirely in favour of the principle of council house sales, and accept the constructive character of much of the remainder of the Bill.
§ Mr. David SteelI am moved to speak on Third Reading only by the utterly intolerant attitude of some right hon. and hon. Members to my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness (Mr. Johnston). I have always felt that if one wanted a vote in favour of devolution in this House, the time to have it is in the middle of the night on the Report stage of a Scottish Bill. That is the time when English and Welsh Members are most sympathetic. I do not approve of the legislative procedures of this House, but we are stuck with them.
Those right hon. and hon. Members who do not represent Scottish constituencies should not be rude and intolerant, failing to listen to those of us who are concerned about the issues. [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Staffordshire, South-West (Mr. Cormack) had heard what the right hon. Member for 753 Salford, East (Mr. Orme) said from a sedentary position, he would be equally angry. The right hon. Gentleman has no cause to be pleased with the record of the Labour Government on improvement grants. If he had the housing in his constituency that I still have in mine, he would not say that it is an Adjournment debate matter when we are dealing with the level of improvement grants in Scotland. With his supposed record of social concern, he should recognise that I am attempting to speak for those who find it difficult to raise the money to improve their homes. That is why I put down an amendment.
Basically, I agree with what my hon. Friend says. The principle behind the Bill is good. The criticism of the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland made to me by local authorities is that he has been insufficiently flexible in listening to their representations on the financial implications of the Bill. He has not been willing to give local authorities the jurisdiction that they should have to consider the housing needs in their areas. What is good for Glasgow or Dundee is not necessarily good for Selkirkshire. I believe that the hon. Gentleman has been wrong in trying to impose a uniform system throughout the length and breadth of Scotland.
The problem concerns not only the financial implications. Despite the long debate yesterday on the impact on rural areas, there are still deep anxieties about
§ the effects of the Bill on housing stocks in rural areas and the ability of people to acquire council housing in the rural areas when they retire and leave tied cottages. Although I welcome the Secretary of State's assurance that he will look again at the restoration of buildings and conservation areas, there is no clear commitment to review the issue.
§ For these reasons, it is right that we should oppose the Bill on Third Reading.
11.44 pm§ Mr. Gordon WilsonIt is significant that at the end of this debate a large number of hon. Members from English constituencies show interest in Scottish housing. Had there been a Scottish Assembly or Parliament, such a Bill would not have come before it. The Government have refused to listen to the observation that the Bill is unbalanced and will cause disadvantage to the housing stock.
§ Mr. McQuarrieRubbish.
§ Mr. WilsonThe hon. Gentleman is an expert in that. He can speak for himself in the debate.
The Government do not have a mandate for the measure. Its terms are unacceptable to the people of Scotland.
§ Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time :—
§ The House divided : Ayes 272, Noes 214.
757| Division No. 360] | AYES | [11.45 pm |
| Adley, Robert | Brooke, Hon Peter | Cranborne, Viscount |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe) | Dean, Paul (North Somerset) |
| Alexander, Richard | Bruce-Gardyne, John | Dickens, Geoffrey |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Bryan, Sir Paul | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Ancram, Michael | Buchanan-Smith, Hon Alick | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
| Arnold, Tom | Buck, Antony | Dover, Denshore |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Budgen, Nick | Dunn, Robert (Dartford) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Bulmer, Esmond | Durant, Tony |
| Atkins, Robert (Preston North) | Burden, F. A. | Dykes, Hugh |
| Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East) | Butcher, John | Eden, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) | Butler, Hon Adam | Edwards, Rt Hon N. (Pembroke) |
| Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) | Cadbury, Jocelyn | Eggar, Timothy |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Carlisle, John (Luton West) | Emery, Peter |
| Bendall, Vivian | Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Eyre, Reginald |
| Benyon, Thomas (Abingdon) | Carlisle, Rt Hon Mark (Runcorn) | Fairbairn, Nicholas |
| Best, Keith | Chalker, Mrs. Lynda | Fairgrleve, Russell |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Channon, Paul | Faith, Mrs Shella |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Chapman, Sydney | Farr, John |
| Blackburn, John | Churchill, W. S. | Fenner, Mrs Peggy |
| Blaker, Peter | Clark, Hon Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) | Finsberg, Geoffrey |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Clark, Sir William (Croydon South) | Fisher, Sir Nigel |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh N) |
| Bottomley, Peter (Woolwich West) | Clegg, Sir Walter | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles |
| Bowden, Andrew | Cockeram, Eric | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Colvin, Michael | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Bright, Graham | Cope, John | Fox, Marcus |
| Brinton, Tim | Cormack, Patrick | Fraser, Peter (South Angus) |
| Brittan, Leon | Corrie, John | Fry, Peter |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher | Costain, A. P. | Gardiner, George (Raigate) |
| Gardner, Edward (South Fylde) | McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury) | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | McQuarrie, Albert | Rossi, Hugh |
| Goodhew, Victor | Madel, David | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy |
| Gow, Ian | Major, John | Scott, Nicholas |
| Gower, Sir Raymond | Marland, Paul | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Marlow, Tony | Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) |
| Gray, Hamish | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Greenway, Harry | Marten, Neil (Banbury) | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Grieve, Percy | Mates, Michael | Silvester Fred |
| Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St Edmunds) | Mather, Carol | Sims, Roger |
| Grist, Ian | Maude, Rt Hon Angus | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Grylls, Michael | Mawby, Ray | Smith, Dudley (War, and Leam'ton) |
| Gummer, John Salwyn | Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Speller, Tony |
| Hamilton, Hon Archie (Eps'm&Ew'll) | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Spicer, Michael (S Worcestershire) |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Mellor, David | Squire, Robin |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Hannam, John | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch) | Stanley, John |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Mills, lain (Meriden) | Steen, Anthony |
| Hastings, Stephen | Mills, Peter (West Devon) | Stevens, Martin |
| Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael | Miscampbell, Norman | Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) |
| Hawksley, Warren | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire) |
| Hayhoo, Barney | Moate, Roger | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Heddle, John | Monro, Hector | Tapsell, Peter |
| Henderson, Barry | Montgomery, Fergus | Taylor, Teddy (Southend East) |
| Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. | Moore, John | Tebbit, Norman |
| Hill, James | Morris, Michael (Northampton, Sth) | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham) | Morrison, Hon Charles (Devizes) | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter (Hendon S) |
| Holland, Philip (Carlton) | Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester) | Thompson, Donald |
| Hooson, Tom | Mudd, David | Thorne, Neil (Ilford South) |
| Hordern, Peter | Murphy, Christopher | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Myles, David | Townsend, Cyril D. (Eexleyheath) |
| Howell, Rt Hon David (Guildford) | Neale, Gerrard | Trippier, David |
| Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) | Needham, Richard | Trotter, Neville |
| Hunt, David (Wirral) | Nelson, Anthony | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) | Neubert, Michael | Viggers, Peter |
| Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) | Newton, Tony | Waddington, David |
| Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick | Normanton, Tom | Wakeham, John |
| Jessel, Toby | Nott, Rt Hon John | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Johnson Smith, Geoffrey | Onslow, Cranley | Walker, Bill (Perth & E Perthshire) |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Oppenheim Rt Hon Mrs Sally | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek |
| Kaberry, Sir Donald | Page, John (Harrow, West) | Wall, Patrick |
| Kershaw, Anthony | Page, Richard (SW Hertfordshire) | Walter, Gary |
| Kimball, Marcus | Parkinson, Cecil | Walters, Dennis |
| King, Rt Hon Tom | Parris, Mathew | Ward, John |
| Kitson, Sir Timothy | Patten, Christopher (Bath) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Knox, David | Patten, John (Oxford) | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Lamont, Norman | Pattle, Geoffrey | Wells, Bowen (Hert'rd & Stev'nage) |
| Lang, Ian | Pawsey, James | Wheeler, John |
| Langtord-Holt, Sir John | Pollock, Alexander | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Porter, George | Whitney, Raymond |
| Lawson, Nigel | Price, David (Eastlelgh) | Wickenden, Keith |
| Lee, John | Prior, Rt Hon James | Wilkinson, John |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Proctor, K. Harvey | Williams, Delwyn (Montgomery) |
| Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Pym, Rt Hon Francis | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Ralson, Timothy | Wolfson, Mark |
| Loveridge, John | Rathbone, Tim | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Lyell, Nicholas | Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal) | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| McCrindle, Robert | Rees-Davies, W. R. | |
| Macfarlane, Neil | Rhodes James, Robert | TELLERS FOR THE AYES : |
| MacGregor, John | Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Mr. Anthony Berry and |
| MacKay, John (Argyll) | Ridsdale, Julian | Mr. Spencer, Le Marchant. |
| Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Parnham) | Rifkind, Malcolm | |
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Crowther, J. S. |
| Adams, Allen | Brown, Ronald W. (Hackney S) | Cryer, Bob |
| Alton, David | Brown, Ron (Edinburgh, Leith) | Cunliffe, Lawrence |
| Anderson, Donald | Buchan, Norman | Cunningham, George (Islington S) |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) | Cunningham, Dr John (Whitehaven) |
| Armstrong, Rt Hon Ernest | Campbell, lan | Dalyell, Tam |
| Ashton, Joe | Campbell-Savours, Dale | Davidson, Arthur |
| Atkinson, Norman (H'gey, Tott'ham) | Cant, R. B. | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Carter-Jones, Lewis | Davies, Ifor (Gower) |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Cartwright, John | Davis, Clinton, (Hackney Central) |
| Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) | Clark, Dr David (South Shields) | Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford) |
| Beith, A. J. | Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Deakins, Eric |
| Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Cohen, Stanley | Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Coleman, Donald | Dempsey, James |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. | Dewar, Donald |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Conlan, Bernard | Dixon, Donald |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Cook, Robin F. | Debson, Frank |
| Bradley, Tom | Cowans, Harry | Dermand, Jack |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Cox, Tom (Wandsworth, Tooting) | Douglas, Dick |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Johnson, James (Hull West) | Roberts, Allan (Bootle) |
| Dubs, Alfred | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Roberts, Ernest (Hackney North) |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rhondda) | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) |
| Dunn, James A. (Liverpool, Kirkdale) | Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Robertson, George |
| Dunnetl, Jack | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Rodgers, Rt Hon William |
| Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Rooker, J. W. |
| Eastham, Ken | Kerr, Russell | Ross, Ernest (Dundee West) |
| Ellis, Raymond (NE Derbyshire) | Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) | Lambie, David | Ryman, John |
| English, Michael | Lamborn, Harry | Sever, John |
| Ennals, Rt Hon David | Leadbitter, Ted | Sheerman, Barry |
| Evans, loan (Aberdare) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert (A'ton-u-L) |
| Ewing, Harry | Lolthouse, Geoffrey | Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) |
| Field, Frank | Lyon, Alexander (York) | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C (Dulwich) |
| Fitch, Alan | Lyons, Edward (Bradford West) | Silverman, Julius |
| Flannery, Martin | Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson | Skinner, Dennis |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Smith, Rt Hon J. (North Lanarkshire) |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | McKay, Allen (Penistone) | Snape, Peter |
| Ford, Ben | McKelvey, William | Soley, Clive |
| Forrester, John | Maclennan, Robert | Spearing, Nigel |
| Foster, Derek | Magee, Bryan | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Foulkes, George | Marks, Kenneth | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Fraser, John (Lambeth, Norwood) | Marshall, Jim (Leicester South) | Strang, Gavin |
| Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Straw, Jack |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Maxton, John | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| George, Bruce | Meacher, Michael | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton West) |
| Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Ginsburg, David | Miller, Dr M. S. (East Kilbride) | Thomas, Mike (Newcastle East) |
| Graham, Ted | Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby) | Thomas, Dr Roger (Carmarthen) |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Mitchell, R. C. (Solon, Itchen) | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Grant, John (Islington C) | Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Tilley, John |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Morris, Rt Hon Charles (Openshaw) | Tinn, James |
| Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) | Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon) | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Hardy, Peter | Moyle, Rt Hon Roland | Walkins, David |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Newens, Stanley | Weetch, Ken |
| Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon | Wellbeloved, James |
| Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Ogden, Eric | Welsh, Michael |
| Haynes, Frank | O'HaMoran, Michael | White, Frank R.(Bury & Radcliffe) |
| Healey, Rt Hon Denis | O'Neill, Martin | White, James (Glasgow, Pollok) |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Hogg, Norman (E Dunbartonshire) | Owen, Rt Hon Dr David | Whitlock, William |
| Holland, Stuart (L'beth, Vauxhall) | Palmer, Arthur | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) |
| Home Robertson, John | Park, George | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee East) |
| Homewood, William | Parry, Robert | Winnick, David |
| Hooley, Frank | Pavitt, Laurie | Woodall, Alec |
| Horam, John | Pendry, Tom | Woolmer, Kenneth |
| Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H) | Penhallgon, David | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Howells, Geraint | Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) | Wright, Shella |
| Huckfield, Les | Prescott, John | Young, David (Bolton East) |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen North) | Race, Reg | |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Radice, Giles | TELLERS FOR THE NOES : |
| Janner, Hon Greville | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds South) | Mr. Hugh McCartney and |
| Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Richardson, Jo | Mr. George Morton. |
| John, Brynmor | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Bill read the Third time and passed.