§ 4.8 p.m.
§ Mr. Tam Dalyell (West Lothian)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide that the holders of the offices of Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, Secretary of State for the Home Department, Secretary of State for the Environment, Secretary of State for Education and Science, Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, Secretary of State for Social Services and Secretary of State for Defence shall not be Members of the House of Lords.A couple of sentences are adequate to move this Ten-Minute Bill relating to the debarment of Secretaries of State in the House of Lords. It rests on the simple proposition that the political heads of great Departments of State, who may be chairmen of important and key committees of Cabinet, should be subject to the scrutiny and, if necessary, the ribaldry and hostility of the House of Commons, the elected Members of Parliament.
§ 4.9 p.m.
§ Mr. W. F. Deedes (Ashford)Having heard so little from the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell), we must judge the purpose of his Bill from the words on the Order Paper. The impression I get from those words is that this is a bad idea.
It seems to me prima facie—and in the absence of a speech from the hon. Gentleman it is prima facie—a bad idea for three reasons. In the first place, if his intentions are in line with the words on the Order Paper, he would unnecessarily tie the hands of future Prime Ministers of both sides of the House in forming their administrations. This is something which neither by tradition nor by Statute has ever been contemplated before.
These matters are now regulated by the Ministerial Salaries Consolidation Act, 1965. That Measure was progressed by the Labour Party, and was an omnibus constructed to carry the very large party of Ministers which entered the Labour Administration in 1964. It is not strictly relevant to the hon. Member's Motion, but if I remember rightly a number of Ministers were travelling without warrants 466 until the Measure was passed. The 1965 Act was passed to empower the appointment of up to 91 Ministers and, as the hon. Gentleman knows quite well, it is that Act which determines which Minis-terms shall be in the House of Lords. In reality, today, under that Act, passed by the progressive Labour Government, there is need for only one Minister in the House of Lords, and that is the Lord Chancellor. That is the effect of the 1965 Act.
My second reason for suggesting that the hon. Member's proposal is not very good is that such a Measure would almost certainly have an ephemeral role. The hon. Gentleman has chosen, among other Ministers, to name those in charge of three Departments which are new creations: Environment, Trade and Industry and Social Services are all creations of the present Government. It may be that in the late 1990s, when the hon. Gentlemen's party may return to power, though it is doubtful, they will have the wisdom to carry on these Departments as we have designed them, but this is unlikely. Environment, in my own time, has had about 12 different aliases, and is likely to have as many more. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows this to be true.
I find one surprising omission from the hon. Gentleman's list of those who may not sit in another place—he has omitted Wales. Imagine the concern of Welsh Members if on the day of a Welsh debate here they were confronted with an Under-Secretary. That might start something.
Speaking seriously, there are over the years constantly changing needs in this regard to which the hon. Gentleman seeks to give some rather inflexible statutory authority. In the time of Lord Attlee's Government it was found desirable to have in the Lords the Minister in charge of Commonwealth Affairs—Lord Addison. In the time of the Leader of the Opposition's first Government the noble Lord, Lord Longford, was in the Lords as Secretary of State for the Colonies, and in our time we have had the Secretary of State for Education and Science there.
My third and strongest reason for opposing the hon. Gentleman's idea is that there may well be a case for reforming 467 the House of Lords, but there is no case for undermining it by proposals of this kind. The hon. Gentleman may argue that this cock should not be allowed to fight, but there is no case for pulling out its tail feathers, which is just what his proposal would do. If we accept a bicameral system we should accept that there must be a sensible apportionment of Ministers between this House and the other place. We have always left it to the Prime Minister of the day on both sides to make that apportionment, and we have made him answerable to this House for his apportionment.
In 1960, when his Foreign Secretary went there and the House of Commons took exception to it there was a debate,
§ and the late Hugh Gaitskell raised against the then Prime Minister, Mr. Harold Macmillan, the elevation of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary to that office when he was in the House of Lords, but said that this matter should remain the prerogative of the Prime Minister subject to the correction of this House rather than that it should be subject to the sort of Statute proposed by the hon. Gentleman, which would ossify in a very short space of time.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business):—
§ The House divided: Ayes 90, Noes 171.
469| Division No. 339.] | AYES | [4.14 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Hamling, William | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles |
| Barnett, Joel | Hardy, Peter | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Harper, Joseph | Prescott, John |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Heffer, Eric S. | Probert, Arthur |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Ress, Merlyn (Leeds, S.) |
| Booth, Albert | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) |
| Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | John, Brynmor | Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N.E.) |
| Buchan, Norman | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.) | Small, William |
| Clark, David (Colne Valley) | Judd, Frank | Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Kaufman, Gerald | Spearing, Nigel |
| Darling, Bt. Hn. George | Kerr, Russell | Steel, David |
| Davies, C. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Lawson, George | Stewart, Donald (Western Isles) |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Lee, Rt. Hn. Freder'ck | Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham) |
| Deakins, Eric | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.) | Stoddart, David (Swindon) |
| Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Taverne, Dick |
| Doig, Peter | Mackenzie, Gregor | Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.) |
| Dormand, J. D. | Maclennan, Robert | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Marks, Kenneth | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Tuck, Raphael |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Mendelson, John | Wainwright, Edwin |
| Evans, Fred | Mikardo, Ian | Wallace George |
| Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Millan, Bruce | Watkins, David |
| Forrester, John | Miller, Dr. M. S. | Weitzman, David |
| Freeson, Reginald | ||
| Garrett W. E. | Molloy, William | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Golding, John | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Woof, Robert |
| Gourlay, Harry | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick | |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Ogden, Eric | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) | Oram, Bert | Mr. Robert Sheldon and |
| Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Orbach, Maurice | Mr. James Wellbeloved. |
| NOES | ||
| Adley, Robert | Campbell, Rt. Hn. C.(Moray & Nairn) | Douglas-Home Rt. Hn. Sir Alec |
| Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian | Carlisle, Mark | Drayson, G. B. |
| Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) | Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Dykes, Hugh |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Cary, Sir Robert | Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) |
| Balniel, Lord | Channon, Paul | Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) |
| Bell, Ronald | Chapman, Sydney | Eyre, Reginald |
| Benyon, W. | Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher | Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Chichester-Clark, R. | Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton) |
| Body, Richard | Churchill, W. S. | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles |
| Boscawen, Robert | Clark, William (Surrey, E.) | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Clegg, Walter | Fortescue, Tim |
| Bowden, Andrew | Cockeram, Eric | Fowler, Norman |
| Braine, Bernard | Coombs, Derek | Fox, Marcus |
| Bray, Ronald | Cormack, Patrick | Fry, Peter |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Critchley, Julian | Gardner, Edward |
| Bruce-Cardyne, J. | Crouch, David | Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M) | Curran, Charles | Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. |
| Burden, F. A. | Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. | Goodhew, Victor |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Gorst, John |
| Gower, Raymond | Mac Arthur, Ian | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) | McCrindle, R. A. | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) |
| Green, Alan | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Rossi, Hugh (Homsey) |
| Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | McMaster, Stanley | Rost, Peter |
| Gummer, Selwyn | Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Gurden, Harold | Madel, David | Sharpies, Richard |
| Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Mather, Carol | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Mawby, Ray | Shelton, William (Clapham) |
| Hannam, John (Exeter) | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Hawkins, Paul | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Spence, John |
| Heseltine, Michael | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper) |
| Hicks, Robert | Moate, Roger | Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.) |
| Higgins, Terence L. | ||
| Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) | Molyneaux, James | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom |
| Hill, James (Southampton, Test) | Money, Ernle | Sutcliffe, John |
| Holland, Philip | Monks, Mrs. Connie | Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart) |
| Holt, Miss Mary | Monro, Hector | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Hornby, Richard | Montgomery, Fergus | Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.) |
| Hornsby-Smith. Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia | Mudd, David | Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret |
| Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) | Murton, Oscar | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| Howell, David (Guildford) | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) | Neave, Airey | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| James, David | Normanton, Tom | van Straubenzee, w, R. |
| Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Onslow, Cranley | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Jennings, J. C. (Burton) | Osborn, John | Waddington, David |
| Jessel, Toby | Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Jopling, Michael | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith | Page, John (Harrow, W.) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Kershaw, Anthony | Peel, John | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Kilfedder, James | Percival, Ian | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Pike, Miss Mervyn | White, Roger (Gravesend) |
| Kinsey, J. R. | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Kitson, Timothy | Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L. | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Knox, David | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis | Worsley, Marcus |
| Lambton, Antony | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James | Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R. |
| Lane, David | Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter | Younger, Hn. George |
| Le Marchant, Spencer | Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) | |
| Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Rees, Peter (Dover) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Longden, Gilbert | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Miss Joan Hall and |
| Luce, R. N. | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas | Mr. Ivor Stanbrook. |