HOUSING (REPAIRS AND RENTS) (SCOTLAND) BILL (Hansard, 17 May 1954)

HC Deb 17 May 1954 vol 527 cc1702-870 1702

§ Order for consideration, as amended (in the Standing Committee), read.

§ 3.41 p.m.

§ Motion made, and Question proposed. That the Bill be re-committed to a Committee of the whole House in respect of the Amendments to Clause 2, page 2, line 45; Clause 3, page 4, line 5; Clause 5, page 5, line 45; and of the new Clause (Limitation of liability of trustees, etc., for expenses of local authorities in certain cases) standing on the Notice Paper in the name of Mr. James Stuart. —[Mr.]. Stuart.]

§ Mr. Thomas Fraser (Hamilton)
May I ask why it has been proposed that this Bill should be recommitted to a Committee of the whole House? Since it was dealt with by the Scottish Grand Committee, it seems to me that, if it has to be recommitted, it ought to be recommitted to that Committee.

§ Mr. Speaker
It is quite in order to move the Motion which has been moved, and I shall put it to the House.

§ Mr. A. Woodburn (Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire)
Could we have a reply from the Secretary of State for Scotland on this matter?

§ The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. James Stuart)
I understand that it is necessary to recommit the Bill in connection with the Amendments set out on the Order Paper. The same procedure was followed on a Bill of the same nature relating to England. I was under the impression that this was a perfectly normal procedure.

§ Mr. James McInnes (Glasgow, Central)
Surely the right hon. Gentleman will not run away from the point which has been put to him? We all agree that it is necessary to recommit the Bill to a Committee, but the point at issue is whether it should be recommitted to a Committee of the whole House or to the Scottish Grand Committee. We desire to know why the right hon. Gentleman has not suggested that, since the Bill has already been before the Scottish Grand Committee, it should be recommitted in respect of these Clauses to the Scottish Grand Committee.

1703

§ Mr. Eric Fletcher (Islington, East)
As someone who is not a member of the Scottish Grand Committee, may I point out how very inconvenient it seems that this Bill, which affects Scotland, should be recommitted to a Committee of the whole House instead of to the Scottish Grand Committee, which obviously is much more fitted to deal with it than is a Committee of the whole House. I am sure that you would admit, Mr. Speaker, that it places hon. Members like myself in a difficulty if a Committee of the whole House is to examine a Scottish Bill, and I should have thought that it would have been simpler to deal with it in the Scottish Grand Committee. We have heard nothing from the Secretary of State to justify what seems to me to be a most remarkable, unprecedented and inconvenient procedure.

§ Mr. Hector Hughes (Aberdeen, North)
I wish to support the observations made by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn). It seems quite inconsistent and wrong that this Bill should be taken from one tribunal after being part heard and the hearing continued before another tribunal. It is as if a case in a court of law were partly heard by one learned judge and the rest of the hearing continued before another learned judge. The Scottish Grand Committee has dealt with the Bill up to the present and is fully qualified to deal with it. In my submission, it is not only illogical but entirely wrong to take the Bill from one jurisdiction and present it to another.
It is all very well for the Secretary of State to say that it is necessary to do this, but he did not explain why it is necessary. Is it being done under any Standing Order, any rule, or under any rule of logic? I hope, Mr. Speaker, that you will take this matter in hand and see that it is dealt with in a more logical way and a way more in accordance with reason.

§ Mr. Emrys Hughes (South Ayrshire)
I wish to put two reasons for opposing the Motion which might appeal to the Secretary of State. The first is that this Bill contains many technical phrases and descriptions which English hon. Members do not understand. That also is the opinion of many English Members. I submit that it is a reason why the Bill should be recommitted to the Scottish 1704 Grand Committee. I see the Attorney-General present, but even he, with his vast knowledge of legal matters, would be rather diffident in trying to interpret technical Scottish terms.
The other reason is that this is a day when there should be no party strife. In the atmosphere of the Resolution we have just passed, it would be fitting and appropriate for the House to adjourn. That would be achieved if the Secretary of State would agree to recommit this Bill to the Scottish Grand Committee. The people in all parts of Scotland are loyal constituents; they regard today as a day of rejoicing; but the Government are marring it by this Bill, which is designed to increase rents by 40 per cent. I suggest to the Secretary of State that the noble and generous thing for him to do would be to agree to recommit the Bill to the Scottish Grand Committee.

§ Mr. J. Stuart
No disrespect is meant or intended to the Scottish Grand Committee. All the Members of that Committee are Members of this House. It would have been possible—indeed it has happened with many Bills—to have taken this Bill in Committee of the whole House. If this Motion were agreed to, we would have a brief stage of recommittal followed by the Report stage and all hon. Members in the House would be entitled to take part in the proceedings. I cannot see that the fact that the Bill is dealt with in Committee of the whole House would exclude any hon. Member from Scotland from taking part in the proceedings.

Mr. Hector McNeil (Greenock)
If that argument advanced by the right hon. Gentleman is in any way applicable, it was applicable when the right hon. Gentleman, we think rightly, moved that this Bill be considered in the Scottish Grand Committee. The only reason he gives for following the proposed procedure is that this procedure was adopted in relation to the English Bill.

§ Mr. John Mackie (Galloway)
May I suggest that this is common form when any Bill has been before a Standing Committee. It does not matter whether it happens to be the Scottish Grand Committee, but in the case of any Bill it is open to the Minister to move the recommittal of the Bill to a Committee of 1705 the whole House. The right hon. Member knows quite well that no Member of the Scottish Grand Committee is thereby debarred from putting a point in which his or her constituents are interested.

Mr. McNeil
The hon. Member is quite wrong—

§ Mr. Mackie
No, I am not.

Mr. McNeil
If the hon. Member will listen, he will see that he is quite wrong in saying that it is the Minister who recommits a Bill; it is this House which recommits a Bill. This House has already committed an intricate Bill to the Scottish Grand Committee and that Committee, frequently with the help of the Government, has had lengthy and patient discussions on this Bill.
The Bill will have tremendous effects for the Scottish people. Now, because the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. Mackie) thinks it is common form—the Secretary of State was careful to say it was not common form—and because the right hon. Gentleman thinks that this would be the quickest way of disposing of the Bill—that is the only reason he has in his mind—we are asked to forgo all these complex discussions and to agree to very substantial changes in the Bill which, in the case of the Secretary of State's new Clause, is a very substantial Clause, closely related to the discussion which previously took place. In some part it is designed to meet the wishes of the Opposition, although I regret to say that it does not do so.
The right hon. Gentleman may not have meant to be disrespectful to the Scottish Grand Committee, he may not have meant to be disrespectful to the Scottish people, but the Scottish people will inevitably conclude that this is discourteous to them. Here is an organisation set up by the House, an organisation which has been thought, for most times of the year, most nearly to meet the wishes of the Scottish people and the wishes of the House. Just because the Government are a little short of time, or perhaps because some right hon. Gentleman is a little lacking in judgment, we are now asked, without any apology or explanation to revoke that procedure. I put it to you, Mr. Speaker, that the new Clause and these Amendments would get a much quieter, more reasonable— [Laughter]—if the right hon. and gallant 1706 Gentleman the Under-Secretary thinks that of the Scottish Grand Committee he had better tell his—

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Commander T. D. Galbraith)
No, I am laughing at you.

§ Mr. Speaker
I hope that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman was not laughing at me.

Commander Galbraith
Certainly not, Mr. Speaker. I should have said that I was laughing at the right hon. Gentleman.

Mr. McNeil
The right hon. and gallant Gentleman is entitled to be entertained by me at any time. I make no complaint if I entertain him, because it is quite plain that he has very little enter tainment in his present political office. But if the right hon. and gallant Gentle man is laughing at my conclusion, which I have offered to the House, that the Scottish Grand Committee would give this matter a more patient and more ex tended consideration, with a better under standing—

§ Mr. Hector Hughes
More skilled.

Mr. McNeil
Well, let the House judge. Our patience, our ability to discuss things quietly, and sometimes at some length, is well known to everyone, and if the right hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks that that is a weakness in the Scottish Grand Committee, he had better tell his constituents so. They will deal with him very directly upon that point.
It is because we feel so strongly, indeed so passionately, upon this point, that unless the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to give some reason to us and to the Scottish people why he thinks the Scottish Grand Committee is an inappropriate body, or unable or lacking in competence to deal with this matter, we shall have to divide against the Government's Motion, which has been offered to cursorily and with so little explanation.

§ Mr. William Ross (Kilmarnock)
lam still waiting for the Secretary of State to give some reason why this—

§ Mr. J. Stuart
The answer is that this is a perfectly normal process, and I shall certainly defend that to my constituents or to anybody else.

§ Mr. Ross
It is a perfectly normal process coming from a perfectly abnormal 1707 Secretary of State. We were led to believe that we were getting one day, which is very little, for the Report stage and Third Reading, but we now find that most of our time is to be taken up with something which the right hon. Gentleman should have done in Committee. One noted in Committee the right hon. Gentleman's reluctance to deal with Amendments either in the way of accepting or explaining them.
Here we are, at this stage, faced with four or five Amendments plus a complex new Clause, and we are told that they are to be dealt with by a Committee of the whole House. I want to know why the Bill is not to be committed once again to the Scottish Grand Committee. We have had no explanation at all from the Secretary of State, and I hope that we shall vote against the Motion.

§ Mr. John Rankin (Glasgow, Tradeston)
It seems to me that in following this procedure the Secretary of State has broken a promise which, through the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Joint Under-Secretary, he made to me in Committee. If he will look at the proceedings of the sixth sitting in Committee, he will find, as recorded in column 239, that he made a definite promise to reconsider, on Report, the matter which is the subject of an Amendment I have put down to the right hon. Gentleman's proposed Amendment to Clause 2, namely, in line 2, at the end, to insert "without delay." Now we find, when we come to what we understood would be the Report stage, that the Secretary of State is recommitting this Clause, and we find ourselves being asked to deal with it again in Committee. It seems to me that it is violating a distinct understanding which the right hon. Gentleman gave in Committee, and I hope he will have something to say about that matter.

§ Mr. John Taylor (West Lothian)
If we had been given any valid reason for this action it could be understood, and, I think, appreciated and agreed to by hon. Members on this side of the House who sit for Scottish constituencies. If the Secretary of State had argued that the deliberations in the Standing Committee had been unduly protracted, that Members had been guilty of time wasting, there might have been some reason or some excuse for the Motion now before us.
1708 I would remind the House that the comparable Bill for England and Wales was subject to a Guillotine and a timetable. On this Bill we agreed to avoid that unwelcome process, by mutual and sensible consent and arrangement. We took it to Standing Committee, and although the Committee stage was a long one, occupying 24 sittings spread over nine and a half weeks, nevertheless that was permissible and understandable in view of the fact that it is one of the most controversial Measures, indeed the most controversial Scottish Measure, to have come before the House in this Parliament.
We argued the matter out in Committee frankly and fully. I would again remind the Secretary of State that the Closure was formally moved on only six occasions, on four of which it was moved by the Opposition, in fact by myself, because I had cognisance of the arrangement, the tacit understanding, we had agreed upon, and I was anxious that we should adhere to the time-table to which we had agreed. In those circumstances we have co-operated as much as is reasonable on an unreasonable Bill of this description—as we regard it—and at this stage it is wrong that the Government should endeavour to force the Report and Third Reading stages through the whole House, which may involve a lengthy Sitting.
It would be much better for the Bill itself, for the interests of the people of Scotland and the interests and convenience of other Members of the House, if we were to take it in a slightly more leisurely and detailed manner in the proper atmosphere, in these circumstances, of a Standing Committee.

§ 4.0 p.m.

§ Mr. A. C. Manuel (Central Ayrshire)
It must be clear to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the Secretary of State for Scotland, and those associated with him who have had all the toil and moil of the preceding stages of the discussion on this Bill, that we are certainly not in agreement with what it is proposed to do today. When one considers that the Secretary of State for Scotland and his advisers at the Scottish Office have had to alter their attitude to the Bill in many respects, there is a case for saying that this stage of the proceedings ought to be continued 1709 in the Scottish Grand Committee. They have had to put many Amendments on the Order Paper, and because of those Amendments, one would assume that the discussion would continue in the Scottish Grand Committee.
I was not able to be present in the Chamber all the time, because of another engagement, but so far as I have heard this discussion, it does not appear to me that the the Secretary of State has justified his course of action today. I heard him say that a similar procedure was adopted with regard to the English Bill, and, accordingly, he thinks that we should accept it for the Scottish Bill. Is that the only argument which the right hon. Gentleman can advance? Are Scottish Members placidly to accept it because the English Bill was hammered through in a certain way? I know the right hon. Gentleman has been in many ways divorced from Scotland and its beliefs for many years, but surely he should recognise that if he pursues the course he is now advocating he will not start the Report stage with the good will of the House.
In the Scottish Grand Committee the right hon. Gentleman enjoyed a large measure of good will. Although we argued keenly, there was no real obstruction, as such, to this Measure. Even the Prime Minister, on one occasion, expressed his satisfaction at the pace at which the discussions were proceeding in the Scottish Grand Committee. I hope the Secretary of State will consider that, and recognise that this protest is a genuine one. We do not like the course we are pursuing. It appears to me that we are inevitably being shoved into an all-night Sitting in order to get Scottish business transacted in a reasonable manner.
Will the Secretary of State tell my hon. and right hon. Friends why he is proposing to take this course? Is it because of shortage of time? Are the Government afraid that they will not get the Bill? Do not the Government wish to risk it again in the Scottish Grand Committee? We had intimate discussions in that Committee which were entered into by hon. Members representing Northern Ireland constituencies. They voted for the Government on every occasion and I see that they are with us today. They will not enjoy the same sort of intimate ebb and flow of discussion as occurred in the Scottish Grand Committee.
1710 I hope that the Secretary of State will recognise their complete loyalty during the early stages of our discussions and realise that he is now throwing away so much voting fodder, which I consider to be a disgraceful action on his part. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give us a more reasonable and logical argument in favour of pursuing the course he now proposes to take instead of leaving the matter to the Scottish Grand Committee.

§ Mr. Cyril Bence (Dunbartonshire, East)
I sat through the meetings of the Scottish Grand Committee and experienced the great difficulty of securing definitions and explanations from the Lord Advocate on various matters. I now wish to ask whether we are to understand that if this Bill is committed to a Committee of the whole House we shall have to go through that process again for the benefit of English Members who may have little experience of Scottish law?
Will hon. Members representing English constituencies have to call upon the Lord Advocate time and again for an explanation of the terms used in order that they may be better able to judge the Amendments and the new Clause now on the Order Paper? If that is so, and remembering the great difficulty we had in the Committee in securing fulsome explanations from the Secretary of State, or the Joint Under-Secretaries or—even worse still—from the Lord Advocate, I can forsee tremendous difficulties arising. It took a long time to secure the necessary degree of lucidity for Scottish Members, and if we are to secure the same degree of lucidity for English Members, who may know little or nothing of Scottish law, I am afraid that our discussions will extend until tomorrow mid-day.
I think that it would be a great mistake to accept this Motion. I hope that hon. Members representing Scottish constituencies will resist it, and that the Bill will be recommitted to the Scottish Grand Committee. We could then have a Report stage in the House lasting for a day. We came here expecting that to happen, and I think we have been cheated. If hon. Members representing English constituencies are sufficiently interested to arrive at a decision upon these Amendments without full explanations of all the legal implications and effects of 1711 this Bill, I shall be very much surprised. If they do receive such explanations, the Scottish Members will have to sit quiet until all the English Members have been satisfied. We can then go on to debate the Amendments and the new Clause when the English Members feel themselves sufficiently equipped to come to a decision; but I cannot see that happening for a long time.

§ Mr. J. Stuart
In the hope that the House will then be prepared to proceed, perhaps I had better say that, with the exception of the new Clause, the Amendments on the Order Paper are designed to meet points raised by hon. Members opposite—

§ Mr. Ross
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Did the Secretary of State ask your permission to speak?

§ Mr. Speaker
No, the right hon. Gentleman did not, but assumed that it would be granted. In any case, the right hon. Gentleman has moved a substantive Motion and he has a right to reply.

§ Mr. Ross
But we have not yet finished with this debate, Sir.

§ Mr. Stuart
The Amendments are designed to meet points raised by hon. Members opposite. I do not think that any Minister, or anyone who has been a Minister, would wish to recommit a Bill if he could avoid doing so. But it is done in accordance with the Standing Orders of the House. It was not due to a desire on my part to recommit the Bill. I hope that we may make progress and that the House will now agree to proceed.

§ Mr. David J. Pryde (Midlothian and Peebles)
I am both shocked and disappointed at the Secretary of State for Scotland. The Government Amendments practically give us a new Bill altogether. I have considerable sympathy with the right hon. Gentleman for bringing the matter to the attention of the whole House, because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel) said in the Scottish Grand Committee, the right hon. Gentleman is like a certain bird which was left during the week-end with the cat. As the Financial Secretary to the Treasury said at the Dispatch Box earlier today, there were several "close shaves."
1712 We can visualise that what the Secretary of State wants to bring into play is not the one or two of a majority which was all he was able to scramble together in the Grand Committee; he wants to bring into full play all his manpower in order to take a short cut, like a certain figure in John Bunyan's "The Pilgrim's Progress"—a short cut to the heaven of the landlords. The Paper today tells us sufficient to enable us to say that the people of Scotland would be very pleased if the Government would take back all the Bill and let us start all over again.
It is evident that the Government are afraid to send the Bill back to the Grand Committee. They are asking English, Welsh and Irish Members to discuss something which is particular to Scotland. I suggest that the Government should follow the advice of my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) and recommit the Bill to the Grand Committee. We will go into the matter patiently. There is a hoodoo on the Bill, and it is doubtful whether it will become effective even though it be put on the Statute Book by force of votes. I appeal to the Government to give Scotland a fair deal and to send the Bill back to the Grand Committee where it can be discussed in detail.

§ Mr. Thomas Oswald (Edinburgh, Central)
I protest on behalf of my constituents, thousands of whom are subject to this thoroughly bad Bill. It has been said that the Government are rushing through legislation with indecent haste. I join with my colleagues in asking the Secretary of State to tell us why the Bill cannot be recommitted to the Grand Committee. It is apparent to the whole country that the Bill was in such bad shape that many Amendments were necessary to make it decent and respectable.
The situation today is that we are presented with new Clauses which it would take us the best part of two days to circumnavigate so that we could discover exactly what are the intentions of the Government. In addition, there are many Amendments in the name of right hon. and hon. Members opposite. Therefore, I suggest to the Secretary of State that he would be well advised to submit the Bill once again to the Scottish Grand Committee to give us an opportunity to 1713 make an attempt to digest the meaning of many of the new phrases which are to be introduced.
When we meet people in Scotland they want to know exactly what this legislation means and what the Government's intentions are. I plead with the Secretary of State to take, for once, some advice from the Opposition and to send the Bill back to the Grand Committee to give us the opportunity to consider the new Amendments so that we can assist the Government to make a bad Bill a little better. It is true that, on many occasions only because the Opposition brought forward good ideas, the Government have been able to put respectable legislation on the Statute Book. We ask the Government to recommit the Bill to the Grand Committee where it may be dealt with by people who understand Scottish legislation.

§ 4.15 p.m.

§ Mr. Ede (South Shields)
I wish to support my right hon. and hon. Friends from Scotland in this matter. The new Clause—[Limitation of liability of trustees, &c, for expenses of local authorities in certain cases.]—is something quite beyond the comprehension of an Englishman. If we have to deal with it in Committee of the whole House, without the assurance that it has received the consideration of our Scottish colleagues, I must say that we shall take some time. I consulted my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. D. Johnston) about two of the words in the Clause. I regret to say that he told me that while I pronounced one of them correctly as an Englishman, that was not the way in which a Scot would pronounce it.
There is a reference to "tutor" and to what I call "curator." They are people who, apparently, in Scotland in some way or other receive rents or are responsible for the receipt of rents. In view of my interpretation of the word "tutor," I should have liked to be able to consult the Educational Institute of Scotland to ascertain whether this is another way of imposing extraneous duties on members of the teaching profession—a matter which is greatly resented. I have not yet been able to get to the Scottish pronunciation of the word, but as far as "curator" is concerned I always thought that he was a person who looked after a museum, at any rate in England.
1714 This is, clearly, one of those pieces of legislation which was purposely brought before us in two separate Bills because of the difference of wording that Englishmen and Scotsmen employ in their legal enactments. We are now to forgo the whole of the advantage of having this new Clause first considered by our Scottish colleagues. When I am told that this is a normal process, I would say that, after all, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) was the first Secretary of State for Scotland to act under the revised Standing Orders of the House which referred Bills for their Second Reading or Committee stage to the Scottish Grand Committee.
I should have thought that, after the experience we are having today, it would be worth while considering whether the normal procedure ought not to be that when a Bill has been to the Scottish Grand Committee it should go back there if it has to be recommitted, so that we could have a clean Bill which had been considered by Scottish Members, aided by a few Members from England and Northern Ireland. We could have the assurance that the Bill had received their attention and was at least the result of collective Scottish views. I sincerely hope that the course suggested will be followed.

§ Mr. Charles Pannell (Leeds, West)
I wish to support what has been said by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede). The English Bill was referred to a Standing Committee. Despite the fact that many questions were asked—there was little filibustering, or none at all—when we got the Measure back to the Floor of the House we had to have a Guillotine to get rid of legislation that was ill-digested, ill-conceived and ill-considered upstairs.
The Measure with which we are dealing today is a purely Scottish Bill which employs Scottish legal terms. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence) is faced with many difficulties. He is a man of Welsh origin who became domiciled in Birmingham and was then chosen to represent a Scottish constituency. I understand that my hon. Friend almost had to learn the alphabet all over again. In order to represent the people of East Dunbartonshire, my hon. Friend felt it necessary for him to go and live in the constituency, 1715 and for him to have to live in that constituency is a very great hardship.
If the Government do not take the line suggested by the Opposition, they are making lobby-fodder for the English Members. The English Members really cannot take an intelligent part in the debate. If they offer any observations, they will merely give away the fact that they know nothing about the subject, or else they will have had briefs handed to them by Scotsmen who want them to filibuster. The English Members will be kept here to do no more than walk into the Lobbies to vote in Divisions on subjects about which they know nothing. We do not want that type of consideration given to a matter on the Floor of the House. The subject ought to have the leisurely, well-informed consideration which is given to Bills in Standing Committees.
I wonder whether the action which is being taken by the Government today might not be taken as a precedent in the case of the Town and Country Planning Bill which is now being considered by Standing Committee C. I am wondering whether, when the English Members on the Standing Committee have finished their deliberations on the Bill, Scottish hon. Members may not be reduced to lobby-fodder in the House on further proceedings of that Bill.
If there is anything at all in having a Scottish Standing Committee, and if it can be intelligently used—I sometimes have reason to doubt it—it seems to me that this is the sort of matter which should be considered by the Scottish Standing Committee and that the Committee stage ought not to be taken on the Floor of the House. I do not know whether there is a constitutional point in what I have said. There is, at any rate, a strong political point in that any method which would enable Scotsmen to mind their own business would be popular among other hon. Members on both sides of the House.

§ Mr. Gordon Walker (Smethwick)
As an English Member representing an English constituency, I have been unimpressed by the arguments so far used by the Secretary of State. All that he has said is that it is normal to do what he is proposing to do. I do not know enough about these things to know whether it is 1716 normal or not, but I have formed the impression from the debate that it ought not to be normal to do what he is proposing to do. It is in conflict with the spirit of the Standing Order which set up the Standing Committee, and if it has been normal in the past, it should cease to be normal from now on. The whole purpose of the Standing Order is that Scotsmen should discuss their own business among themselves in their own curious jargon. At all events, it is curious jargon to Englishmen, Welshmen and Northern Irishmen.

Commander Galbraith
Does the right hon. Gentleman recollect the Standing Order of which he is speaking? If he did, he might change his mind. It requires only 10 hon. Members to stand in their places and object in order to stop a Bill going to a Standing Committee. Therefore, what is all this talk about the sacrosanct manner in which Scottish Measures should be dealt with?

Mr. McNeil
Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman tell the House of any occasion on which 10 hon. Members have stood to oppose the Second Reading of a Scottish Bill being remitted to the Standing Committee?

Commander Galbraith
Am I not correct in thinking that the Opposition recently objected to another Bill going upstairs and insisted on its being taken on the Floor of the House? Does the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Greenock (Mr. McNeil) remember that? If he does, will he be good enough to apologise for the statement which he has made?

Mr. McNeil
We were then dealing, as we are now, with a Committee stage.

§ Mr. Gordon Walker
I am sorry to intervene between two Scotsmen, but this is just the sort of thing that ought to be going on in the Scottish Standing Committee. I have not understood any of it; it has been a very good example to prove that these things are much better settled in Standing Committee.
The Government really ought to spare hon. Members in a position such as I am from having to make decisions in the course of the proceedings on this Bill on matters which, unless they are explained to us at very great length, we shall not be able to understand. After all, non-Scottish Members are a majority of the 1717 House and our views ought to be regarded. The Government's proposal places a very grave imposition upon us and upon the Government. The Government will have to explain these things to us at considerable length, translating them all into the corresponding English legal terms.

§ Mr. William Hamilton (Fife, West)
The Secretary of State for Scotland anticipated that he would get the Motion through without any discussion. What has happened during the last hour ought to warn him about what will happen between now and breakfast time tomorrow.
My right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) expressed some alarm about the pronunciation and meaning of certain words in Scotland and in England. I anticipate that in the course of the debate my right hon. Friend will ask for an explanation not of sentences or phrases but of words. We have all had experience of the Lord Advocate explaining things to us in the Scottish Standing Committee. Goodness knows what will happen when he tries to explain to English, Welsh and Northern Irish hon. Members the meaning of a word in Scotland compared with its meaning in England. We shall be no further forward after his explanation.
I should have thought that the Government would have been a little sensitive to the results of the local elections. This Measure is of interest to Scotland and to nobody else. We have machinery designed for the specific purpose of sending legislation of this nature to the Scottish Standing Committee, and yet we have the Government flying in the face of that machinery, deliberately determined to organise its English, Northern Irish and Welsh manpower to force through the House a Bill which is of no conceivable interest to those hon. Members.
It is going too far for the Secretary of State to expect the Opposition meekly to accept what he has proposed. I frankly warn him that if he is determined to pursue this course he can be prepared for a very long sitting indeed, because our Welsh and Irish colleagues, no less than our English colleagues, are going to be very meticulous and will insist upon having every word, phrase, sentence and paragraph explained to them in full and in detail.

1718

§ Mr. T. Fraser
Lest the House be in fluenced by the remarks made by the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scot land when he interrupted my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) I should like to make the point clear. The reference was to Standing Order No. 60, under which a Bill may be referred to the Scottish Standing Committee for consideration in relation to the principle of the Bill—

§ Mr. Speaker
The hon. Member will tell me if I am wrong, but I believe that he has already spoken to the Motion.

§ Mr. Fraser
If you so rule, Mr. Speaker, I must, of course, resume my seat, but when I first rose I merely asked a question. I do not know whether that is regarded as a speech. I think the OFFICIAL REPORT will show that my remarks were confined to asking the right hon. Gentleman why this Bill had been referred to a Committee of the whole House, but if that is a speech, I must not make the remarks that I wanted to make.

§ 4.30 p.m.

§ Mr. Speaker
Technically, of course, it is a speech, but perhaps the hon. Gentleman, with the leave of the House, could make the point he wishes to put.

§ Mr. Fraser
May I ask the leave of the House to deal with a small point, which I regard as important, which was made by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Joint Under-Secretary? If I have that leave, may I say that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman pulled up my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) by saying that there was a Standing Order under which, if 10 hon. Members of the House rose in their places in objection, a Bill would not be referred to the Scottish Standing Committee. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman was referring to Standing Order No. 60.
I do not want to weary the House by reading the Standing Order, but the position under it is that a Bill which has received a certificate from you, Mr. Speaker, certifying that it relates specifically and exclusively to Scotland, may be referred to the Scottish Standing Committee for consideration in relation to the principle of the Bill. Then the Bill will come back here, the Second Reading will be taken formally by the House on a 1719 Motion moved by the Government, and the House can then divide upon the Second Reading.
That Standing Order was introduced on the initiative of my right hon. Friend the Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn), with the consent of the Opposition of those days, and agreed by the House, because it was considered desirable that, when we have a non-controversial and purely Scottish Measure, we should be able to have a discussion, on what is really the Second Reading stage of the Bill, by Scottish hon. Members, and should not weary the House with it at that stage. It always was the intention that, where there was a controversial Measure which related exclusively to Scotland, it should have its Second Reading here on the Floor of the House.
The Bill about which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman said the Opposition had objected to its going to the Scottish

1720

§ Standing Committee was the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Bill, which was seen to be a controversial and a major Measure. We said that we regarded it as a controversial and major Measure, and wanted to debate it on Second Reading on the Floor of the House and divide upon it. It was because of that fact that a Motion which had been put down by the Government without consulting the Opposition was later withdrawn by the Government. In the circumstances, I hope the House will not be unduly influenced by the intervention of the Joint Under-Secretary of State.

§ Mr. Edward Heath (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury)
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

§ Question put, "That the Question be now put."

§ The House divided: Ayes, 227; Noes, 196.

1723

Division No. 95.]	AYES	[4.35 p.m.
Alport, C. J. M.	Crouch, R. F.	Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry
Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)	Crowder, Sir John (Finohley)	Hornsby-Smith, Mist M. P.
Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton)	Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)	Horobin, I. M.
Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.	Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)	Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florense
Arbulhnol, John	Davidson, Viscountess	Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)
Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)	Deedes, W. F.	Howard, Hon. Groville (St. Ives)
Astor, Hon. J. J.	Digby, S. Wingfield	Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.	Dodds-Parker, A. D.	Hurd, A. R.
Banks, Col. C.	Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. MCA	Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)
Barlow, Sir John	Doughty, C. J. A.	Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.
Baxter, A. B.	Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm	Iremonger, T. L.
Beach, Maj. Hicks	Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.	Johnson, Erio (Blackley)
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)	Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)	Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)
Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)	Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.	Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.
Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)	Finlay, Graeme	Kerby, Capt. H. B
Bennett, William (Woodside)	Fisher, Nigel	Kerr, H. W.
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)	Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F	Lambert, Hon. G
Birch, Nigel	Flelcher-Cooke, C.	Lambton, Viscount
Bishop, F. P.	Fort, R.	Langford-Holt, J. A.
Black, C. W.	Foster, John	Legge-Bourke, Mai. E. A. H.
Boothby, Sir R. J. C.	Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)	Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.
Bossom, Sir A. C.	Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)	Lindsay, Martin
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.	Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)	Linstead, Sir H. N.
Boyle, Sir Edward	Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)	Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H	Garner-Evans, E. H.	Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.
Brooman-White, R. C.	George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd	Lucas, Sir Jooelyn (Portsmouth, S.)
Browne, Jack (Govan)	Glover, O.	Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)
Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T	Godber, J. B.	Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Bullard, D. G.	Gomme-Duncan, Col. A	McAddon, S. J.
Burden, F. F. A.	Gough, C. F. H.	McCorquodaie, Rt. Hon. M. S
Butcher, Sir Herbert	Gower, H. R.	Macdonald, Sir Peter
Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)	Graham, Sir Fergus	Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)
Campbell, Sir David	Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)	Maclay, Rt. Hon. John
Carr, Robert	Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)	Maclean, Fitzroy
Gary, Sir Robert	Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)	Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)
Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)	Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)	Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W)	Hay, John	Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)
Clyde, Rt. Hon. J. L.	Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.	Marlowe, A. A. H.
Cole, Norman	Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel	Marples, A. E.
Colegate, W. A.	Heath, Edward	Marshall, Douglas (Bodmis)
Conant, Maj. R. J. E.	Henderson, John (Cathcart)	Maude, Angus
Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert	Hinchingbrooke, Viscount	Maudling, R.
Cooper-Key, E. M.	Hirst, Geoffrey	Maydon, Lt.-Comdr S. L C
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)	Holland-Martin, C. J	Mcdlicotl, Brig. F
Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H F. C	Hope, Lord John	Mellor, Sir John
Molson, A. H. E.	Remnant, Hon. P.	Studholme, H. G.
Monckton, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter	Renton, D. L. M.	Summers, G. S.
Moore, Sir Thomas	Ridsdale, J. E.	Sutcliffe, Sir Harold
Nabarro, G. D. N.	Roberts, Peter (Heeley)	Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Neave, Airey	Robertson, Sir David	Teeling, W.
Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)	Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)	Thomas, Rt. Hon.. J. P. L. (Hereford)
Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)	Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)	Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)
Nield, Basil (Chester)	Roper, Sir Harold	Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)
Nugent, G. Ft. H.	Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard	Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)
Oakshott, H. D.	Russell. R. S.	Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)
O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)	Ryder, Capt. R. E. D	Touche, Sir Gordon
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.	Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.	Turner, H, F. L.
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.	Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas	Turton, R. H.
Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)	Scott, R. Donald	Tweedsmuir, Lady
Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weslon-super-Mare)	Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.	Vane, W. M. F.
Page, R. G.	Shepherd, William	Vaughan-Morgan, J. K
Peake, Rt. Hon. 0.	Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)	Vosper, D. F.
Peto, Brig. C. H. M	Smithers, Peter (Winchester)	Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Peyton, J. W. W.	Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)	Wall, P. H. B.
Pickthorn, K. W. M.	Snadden, W. McN.	Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)
Pilkington, Capt. R A	Soames, Capt. C.	Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.
Pitman, I. J.	Spearman, A. C. M.	Watkinson, H. A.
Pitt, Miss E. M.	Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)	Wellwood, W.
Powell, J. Enoch	Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.)	Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)
Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)	Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard	Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)
Prior-Palmer, Brig. 0. L	Stevens, G. P.	Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Profumo, J. D.	Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)	Wills, G.
Raikes, Sir Victor	Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)	Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Ramsden, J. E.	Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.
Rayner, Brig. R.	Storey, S.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Redmayne, M.	Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)	Mr. Robert Allan and Mr. Legh.
Rees-Davies, W	Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)
NOES
Acland, Sir Richard	Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)	Key, Rt. Hon. C. W
Albu, A. H.	Finch, H. J.	King, Dr. H. M.
Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)	Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)	Kinley, J.
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)	Follick, M.	Lawson, G. M.
Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)	Foot, M. M.	Lee, Frederick (Newton)
Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.	Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)	Lewis, Arthur
Bacon, Miss Alice	Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.	Lindgren, G. S.
Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.	Gooch, E. G.	Lipton, Lt.-Col. M
Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.	Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.	Logan, D. G.
Bence, C. R.	Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)	MacColl, J. E.
Benn, Hon. Wedgwood	Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.	Mclnnes, J.
Bing, G. H. C.	Grey, C. F.	McKay, John (Wallsend)
Blackburn, F.	Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)	McLeavy, F.
Blenkinsop, A.	Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)	McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.
Blyton, w. R	Grimond, J.	MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)
Bowden, H. W	Hale, Leslie	Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)
Bowen, E. R.	Halt, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Coine Valley)	Mann, Mrs. Jean
Bowles, F. G.	Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)	Manuel, A. C.
Brook, Dryden (Halifax)	Hamilton, W. W.	Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.	Hannan, W	Mason, Roy
Brown, Thomas (Ince)	Hargreaves, A.	Mellish, R. J
Burke, W. A.	Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)	Messer, Sir F.
Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)	Hastings, S.	Mikardo, Ian
Callaghan, L. J.	Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)	Mitchison, G. R
Carmichael, J.	Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)	Moody, A. S
Champion, A. J.	Herbison, Miss M.	Morgan, Dr. H, B. W.
Chapman, W. D.	Hobson, C. R.	Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.)
Chetwynd, G. R	Holman, P.	Moyle, A.
Clunie, J.	Holmes, Horace	Murray, J. D.
Coldrick, W.	Holt, A. F.	Neal, Harold (Bolsover)
Collick, P. H.	Houghton, Douglas	Oliver, G. H.
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)	Hoy, J. H.	Oswald, T.
Crosland, C. A. R.	Hudson, James (Eating, N.)	Padley, W. E.
Crossman, R. H. S.	Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)	Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)
Cullen, Mrs. A.	Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)	Palmer, A. M. F.
Daines, P.	Hynd, H. (Aocrington)	Parmell, Charles
Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.	Hynd J. B. (Attercliffe)	Pargiter, G. A
Darling, George (Hillsborough)	Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)	Parker, J.
Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)	Isaacs, Rt. Hen G A.	Parkin, B. T.
Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)	Janner, B.	Pearson, A.
Deer, G.	Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.	Plummer, Sir Leslie
Delargy, H. J.	Jenkins, R. H. (Steohford)	Popplewell, E.
Dodds, N. N.	Johnson, James (Rugby)	Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwioh)	Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)	Proctor, W. T.
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C	Jones, David (Hartlepool)	Pryde, D. J.
Edelman, M.	Jones, Jack (Rotherham)	Pursey, Cmdr. H
Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)	Jones, T. W (Merioneth)	Rankin, John
Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)	Keenan, W	Reeves, J.
Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)	Kenyon, C.	Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

1722

1723

Reid, William (Camlachie)	Sparks, J. A.	Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)	Steele, T.	White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)	Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.	White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)	Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)	Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.
Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)	Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.	Willey, F. T.
Ross, William	Sylvester, G. O.	Williams, David (Neath)
Royle, C.	Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)	Williams, Ronald (Wigan)
Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E	Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)	Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll'y)
Short, E. W.	Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)	Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)
Shurmer, P. L. E.	Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)	Willis, E. G
Silverman, Julius (Erdington)	Tomney, F.	Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)
Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)	Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn	Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)
Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)	Usborne, H. C.	Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Skeffington, A. M.	Viant, S. P.	Wyatt, W. L.
Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)	Warbey, W. N.	Yates, V. F.
Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)	Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford G.)
Snow, J. w.	Weitzman, D	TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
		Mr. Wilkins and Mr. John Taylor.

§ Question put accordingly.

1724

§ The House divided: Ayes, 228; Noes, 202.

1727

Division No. 96.]	AYES	[4.42 p.m.
Alport, C. J. M.	Fisher, Nigel	Macdonald, Sir Peter
Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)	Fleetwood-Hesketh, R F	Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)
Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton)	Fletcher-Cooke, C	Maclay, Rt. Hon. John
Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.	Fort, R.	Maclean, Filzroy
Arbuthnot, John	Foster, John	Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)
Assheton, RL Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)	Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)	Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)
Astor, Hon. J. J.	Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)	Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.	Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T D (Pollok)	Marlowe, A. A. H.
Banks, Col. C.	Galbraith, T. G. 0. (Hillhead)	Marples, A. E
Barlow, Sir John	Garner-Evans, E. H.	Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)
Baxter, A. B.	George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G Lloyd	Maude, Angus
Beach, Maj. Hicks	Glover, D.	Maudling, R.
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)	Godber, J.	Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.
Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)	Gomme-Duncan, Col A	Medlicott, Brig. F.
Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)	Gough, C. F. H.	Mellor, Sir John
Bennett, William (Woodside)	Gower, H. R.	Molson, A. H. E.
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)	Graham, Sir Fergus	Monckton, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter
Birch, Nigel	Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)	Moore, Sir Thomas
Bishop, F. P	Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)	Nabarro, G. D. N.
Black, C. W.	Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)	Neave, Airey
Boothby, Sir R. J. G.	Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)	Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)
Bossom, Sir A. C.	Hay, John	Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.	Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.	Nield, Basil (Chester)
Boyle, Sir Edward	Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel	Nugent, G. R. H.
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H	Heath, Edward	Oakshott, H. D.
Brooman-White, R. C.	Henderson, John (Cathcart)	O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)
Browne, Jack (Govan)	Hinchingbrooke, Viscount	Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.
Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G T	Hirst, Geoffrey	Orr. Capt. L. P. S.
Bullard, D. G.	Holland-Martin, C J	Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)
Burden, F. F. A.	Hope, Lord John	Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare)
Butcher, Sir Herbert	Hopkinson, Rt. Hon Henry	Page, R. G.
Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)	Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.	Peake, Rt. Hon. O.
Campbell, Sir David	Horobin, I. M.	Peto, Brig. C. H. M.
Carr, Robert	Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence	Peyton, J. W. W.
Cary, Sir Robert	Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)	Pickthorn, K. W. M.
Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)	Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)	Pilkington, Capt. R. A.
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)	Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)	Pitman, I. J.
Clyde, Rt. Hon. J. L	Hurd, A. R.	Pitt, Miss E. M.
Cote, Norman	Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)	Powell, J. Enoch
Colegate, W. A.	Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M	Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)
Conant, Maj. R. J. E.	Iremonger, T. L.	Prior-Palmer, Brig. 0. L.
Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert	Johnson, Eric (Blackley)	Profumo, J. O.
Cooper-Key, E. M.	Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)	Raikes, Sir Victor
Craddock, Beresford (Speltnorne)	Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W	Ramsden, J. E.
Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.	Kerby, Capt. H, B	Rayner, Brig. R
Crouch, R. F.	Kerr, H. W.	Redmayne, M.
Crowder, Sir John (Finchiey)	Lambert, Hon. G.	Rees-Davies, W. R
Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)	Lambton, Viscount	Remnant, Hon. P
Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)	Langford-Holt, J. A.	Renton, D. L. M
Davidson, Viscountess	Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.	Ridsdale, J. E.
Deedes, W. F.	Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T	Roberts, Peter (Heeley)
Digby, S. Wingfield	Lindsay, Martin	Robertson, Sir David
Dodds-Parker, A. D	Limstead, Sir H. N.	Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA	Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E)	Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)
Doughty, C. J. A.	Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.	Roper, Sir Harold
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm	Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)	Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard
Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.	Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)	Russell, R. S.
Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)	Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh	Ryder, Capt. R. E. D
Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.	McAdden, S. J.	Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.
Finlay, Graeme	McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.	Savory, Prof Sir Douglas
Scott, R. Donald	Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)	Vaughan-Morgan, J. K
Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.	Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)	Vosper, D. F.
Shepherd, William	Studholme, H. G.	Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)	Summers, G. S.	Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marytebone)
Smithers, Peter (Winchester)	Sutclifle, Sir Harold	Wall, P. H. B.
Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)	Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)	Ward, Miss* I. (Tynemouth)
Snadden, W. McN.	Teeling, W.	Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C
Soames, Capt. C.	Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)	Watkimson, H. A.
Spearman, A. C. M.	Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)	Wellwood, W.
Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)	Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)	Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)
Spans, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.)	Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)	Williams, Paul (Sunder land, S.)
Stanley, Capl. Hon. Richard	Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)	Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Stevens, G. P.	Touche, Sir Gordon	Wills, Gerald
Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)	Turner, H. F. L.	Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)	Turton, R. H.
Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.	Tweedsmuir, Lady	TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Storey, S.	Vane, W. M. F.	Mr. Robert Allan and Mr. Legli.
NOES
Acland, Sir Richard	Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)	Moyre, A.
Albu, A. H,	Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)	Murray, J. D.
Alten, Arthur (Bosworth)	Grimond, J.	Neal, Harold (Bolsover)
Allen, Soholefield (Crewe)	Hale, Leslie	Oliver, G. H.
Anderson, Frank (Wihitehaven)	Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)	Oswald, T.
Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.	Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)	Padley, W. E.
Bacon, Miss Alice	Hamilton, W. W	Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)
Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.	Hannan, W.	Palmer, A. M. F.
Ballenger, Rt. Hon. F. J	Hargreaves, A.	Pannell, Charles
Bence, C. R.	Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)	Pargiter, G. A.
Benn, Hon. Wedgwood	Hastings, S.	Parker, J.
Benson, G.	Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)	Parkin, B. T.
Bing, G. H. C.	Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)	Pearson, A.
Blackburn, F.	Herbison, Miss M.	Plummer, Sir Leslie
Blenkinsop, A.	Hobson, C. R.	Popplewell, E.
Blyton, W. R.	Holman, P,	Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Bowden, H. W.	Holmes, Horace	Proctor, W. T.
Bowen, E. R.	Holt, A. F.	Pryde, D. J.
Bowies, F. G.	Houghton, Douglas	Pursey, Cmdr. H
Brook, Dryden (Halifax)	Hoy, J. H.	Rankin, John
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.	Hudson, James (Eating, N.)	Reeves, J.
Brown, Thomas (Ince)	Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)	Reid, Thomas (Swindon)
Burke, W. A.	Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)	Reid, William (Camlachie)
Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)	Hynd, H. (Accrington)	Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Callaghan, L. J.	Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)	Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon),
Cermichael, J.	Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)	Robinson, Kenneth (St. Panoras, N.)
Champion, A. J.	Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.	Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)
Chapman, W. D.	Janner, B.	Ross, William
Chetwynd, G R.	Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.	Royle, C.
Clunie, J.	Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)	Shinwsll, Rt. Hon. E.
Coidriok, W.	Johnson, James (Rugby)	Short, E. W.
Collick, P. H.	Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)	Shurmer, P. L. E.
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)	Jones, David (Hartlepool)	Silverman, Julius (Erdington)
Crosland, C. A. R.	Jones, Jack (Rotherham)	Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Crossman, R. H. S	Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)	Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)
Cullen, Mrs. A.	Keenan, W.	Skeffington, A. M.
Dines, P.	Kenyon, C.	Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)
Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.	Key, Rt. Hon. C. W	Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)
Darling, George (Hillsborough)	King, Dr. H. M.	Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)
Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)	Kinley, J.	Snow, J. W.
Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)	Lawson, G. M.	Sparks, J. A
Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)	Lee, Frederick (Newton)	Steele, T.
Deer, G.	Lewis, Arthur	Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.
Delargy, H. J.	Lindgren, G. S.	Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)
Dodds, N. N.	Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.	Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E
Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)	Logan, D. G.	Sylvester, G. O.
Ede, Rt Hon. J. C	MacColl, J. E.	Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Edelman, M.	Mclnnes. J.	Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)
Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)	McKay, John (Wallsend)	Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)
Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)	McLeavy, F.	Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)	McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.	Tomney, F.
Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)	MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)	Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lyrnn
Finch, H. J.	Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)	Usborne, H. C.
Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)	Mann, Mrs. Jean	Viant, S. P.
Follick, M.	Manuel, A. C.	Warbey, W. N.
Foot, M. M.	Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A	Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)
Forman, J. C.	Mason, Roy	Weitzman, D.
Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)	Mellisti, R. J.	Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N	Messer, Sir F.	White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Gooch, E. G.	Mikardo, Ian	White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.	Mitchison, G. R	Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.
Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)	Moody, A. S	Wigg, George
Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R	Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.	Wihcock, Group Capt. CAB
Grey. C. F.	Morrison, Rt. Hon. H (Lewisham, S)	Willey. F T

1726

1727

Williams, David (Neath)	Willis, E. G.	Wyatl, W. L.
Williams, Ronald (Wigan)	Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huylon)	Yales, V. F.
Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'M'y)	Winlerboltom, Richard (Brightside)
Williatm, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)	Woodburn, Rl. Hon. A.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
		Mr. Wilkins and Mr. John Taylor.