HC Deb 24 June 1947 vol 439 cc217-27
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. Gaits-kell)

I beg to move, in page 4, line 8, to leave out "such." and to insert "electrical."

This Amendment, the one immediately following it and the next but one could, perhaps, be considered together with your permission, Mr. Speaker. The three Amendments are necessary in order to make it clear that the powers of the boards to instal, repair, maintain or remove electrical plant or fittings, as the case may be, shall not be restricted to plant supplied by themselves only. It is generally agreed that such a restriction would be undesirable.

Amendment agreed to;

Consequential Amendments made.

Mr. Gaitskell

I beg to move, in page 4, line 8, at the end, to insert: "and (c) to carry on all such activities as it may appear to the Authority to be requisite, advantageous, or convenient for them to carry on for or in connection with the performance of their duties under the foregoing Section or with a view to making the best use of any assets vested. in them by or under this Act. The circumstances in which I move this Amendment are a trifle peculiar. If you happen to have read this Bill, Sir, and recall it to your mind as originally drafted, you will no doubt have observed that paragraph (c), which we now seek to insert, was in the original Bill. After a lengthy Debate in Committee about the merits of this paragraph, which the Opposition moved to delete, a vote took place. It so happened that in the vote, a majority, composed entirely of hon. Members of the Labour Party, were found to have voted in favour of the deletion of the paragraph. At the same time, all the hon. Members of the Opposition voted the other way. It might be thought that the Opposition had acted in some perfidious manner in voting that way, but I would not suggest such a thing. I think that we were all sheep together, with the exception of my hon. Friend the Member for Reading (Mr. Mikardo) who was a lone wolf. He stood on his own and voted the right way.

The case for re-inserting the paragraph is that it is usual in the few Bills of this kind to give fairly wide powers to boards to carry on a number of different activities. These words are practically identical with those in the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act. Words of this kind are necessary because a body in the position of an electricity board, either the Central Authority or an area board, may have to conduct a number of activities. I mentioned in the Committee that a publicity campaign would be covered by a provision of this sort. Similar activities would be the sale of waste clinker, the provision of a canteen service for employees, the provision of hospitals and of houses in remote areas, and, no doubt, there are many other activities which would be covered by words of this kind. In Committee the Opposition objected to the paragraph being drawn in such wide terms, but when one is dealing with a large and important body of this kind it is difficult to restrict the provision. One would have to compose an enormous list of possible activities, which I think would be out of the question. It is hardly conceivable that we can now anticipate everything that the Authority might properly, and in accordance with the general spirit of the Bill, wish to do in the future. I think I need mention only one other point. The paragraph refers to: making the best use of any assets vested in them by or under this Act. That is a reference to the non-electricity assests which, to some extent, even with the Amendments which have been made in Committee and with other Amendments which might be made hereafter, will still exist. For example, there may be some gas undertakings which will vest in the boards, and it will be necessary for the boards to have power to dispose of them. This paragraph provides that power.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter (Kingston-upon-Thames)

The Parliamentary Secretary referred with becoming modesty to the contretemps in the Standing Committee. and I can assure him that no hon. Member on this side of the House is in any position to attempt to score off him and his hon. Friends on that point. But I do think the Parliamentary Secretary carried his modesty a little far when he referred to this paragraph as providing the boards with "fairly wide powers." "Fairly wide powers" is a very modest description of a provision which confers on the Authority a substantial power to carry on any transaction of any sort that it so desires. It would have been more honest if this paragraph had been drafted: The Boards may do anything they like. Those words would have substantially the same effect as the proposed paragraph, and at the same time they would have been perfectly open and above board.

It is difficult to visualise any activity in which the boards would not be empowered to indulge under this paragraph. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary did not wish to mislead the House when he said its provisions were fairly similar to the corresponding provision in the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act. I am afraid that is not so. The relevant provision of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act is Section I (2) and, in particular, paragraphs (d) and (e) The material and comparable provision is contained in paragraph (e,) which says: any activities which can advantageously be carried on by the Board with a view to making the best use of any of the assets vested in them by this Act.

Mr. Gaitskell

If the hon. Gentleman will read the first part of the passage from which he has quoted, he will see that the words are practically identical.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The Parliamentary Secretary has referred to the "first part." There are four preceding paragraphs. I will read them all if he so wishes. Which has he in mind?

Mr. Gaitskell

The part before paragraph (a.)

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The words are: The functions of the National Coal Board …shall include the carrying on of all such activities as it may appeal to the Board to be requisite, advantageous or convenient for them to carry on for Os in connection with the discharge of their duties under the preceding Subsection and in particular, but without prejudice to the generality of this Section— It is obvious that those words are much narrower than the provisions of this Bill. In this Bill anything that appears to the Authority to be advantageous is permissible. That means that there is no limit at all. No one desires to inhibit the Electricity Authority from performing any necessary functions in connection with the generation and distribution of electricity, but what calls for explanation is the desire to arm the Central Authority with powers to carry on almost any other industrial process. Is it the intention of the Government that it should, or are the Government merely following their now habitual process of taking every possible power in every possible Bill in case somebody later on may want to use it? I think we are entitled to know what are the intentions of the Government, as under this Bill the Government will have power to issue directions to the Authority.

I am glad the Parliamentary Secretary did not call in aid on this occasion, as he will recollect he called in aid on the Committee stage, a wholly fallacious comparison between statutory powers and the memorandum of association of a company, because I imagine the abandonment of that argument means that the Parliamentary Secretary has now been convinced of its fallacious nature. I suggest that the proper comparison with the powers given to this statutory monopoly is with' the powers given under Private Bill procedure in this House to public utility companies. The Parliamentary Secretary will know that in all such cases the applicant for the powers has to satisfy the Select Committee of the real need for every power before it is given. This Electricity Authority is in many cases actually replacing the public utility companies operating under these private Acts of Parliament and, therefore, the analogy is exact. The Electricity Authority should be in substantially the same position as those public utility companies—that is to say, fully entitled to any powers for which it can make out a reasonable case, but not entitled to take wide and sweeping powers to do almost anything it wishes.

In his habitually disarming way the Parliamentary Secretary may have led the House to think that the discussion on this Amendment arises solely owing to the amusing little contretemps in the Standing Committee, but it goes further. It goes to the root of the purpose of these public monopoly corporations. Are they, or are they not, to be confined to the particular function which was the intention of this House in setting them up—that is to say, dealing with electricity—or are they to have carte blanche to wander over the whole sphere of industry, competing at will with other State monopolies, or even with that diminishing but still vigorous class, the private enterprise firm? We are entitled to know, and the Parliamentary Secretary has not told us. He has simply asked for these powers, said that the necessity for the request arose merely because of an accident, and sat down. I hope that before we give to this Authority and to the Minister who controls it these amazingly extensive powers, we shall be told why they are required and for what purpose it is intended they shall be used.

4.0 p.m.

Mr. Raikes (Liverpool, Wavertree)

I feel bound to say a word on this matter because I had the privilege on another occasion of moving the deletion of these words, and of having the Government reject my Amendment and the Committee accept it, although it was also the one occasion when I voted against myself. I rather regret the Government have turned from the path they then took in voting against themselves. The Parliamentary Secretary knows perfectly well that he is proposing an omnibus proviso. When that was suggested earlier today he dissented and I notice that he shook 'his head with considerable vigour. But the Parliamentary Secretary, even if he has not reached that stage of wisdom which I remember he could bring to the Bill in the mornings, in regard to matters in general, will understand, I hope, that the memorandum of a limited company really has very little effect in practice, because those companies are already very limited in scope in other ways and for other reasons. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) has pointed out that the electricity boards are more comparable to public utility companies than to anything else, and that this Amendment gives the Board wider powers than they have ever had. It is completely contrary to Parliamentary practice that powers should be given so wide as these and I would close, because I do not want to talk at length at this stage, by making one quotation which, I think, does set out the difference between an omnibus clause in a memorandum and other such powers: In general, the distinction between the objects clause in a memorandum and powers granted by Parliament is, that the first defines the purposes for which the company may apply its members' funds, and the second defines the powers which the company may exercise as against the rest of the world, being powers which it could not normally exercise without the authority of Parliament. I think that is a fair definition, and I am bound to say that the Amendment goes very far beyond the usual practice.

Mr. Norman Bower (Harrow, West)

I should like to reinforce what my hon. Friends have said. A similar provision was inserted in the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, and although it may not have gone quite so wide as this, it certainly was, in my opinion, too wide. Now we have this paragraph in this Bill which goes even wider. I can quite understand why it is the Government's point of view to insert powers of this kind in their nationalisation Bills. When they nationalise an industry or a service—the coal mines, or electricity, or transport— it is a large and formidable undertaking. To get the nationalisation Bill through Parliament is a difficult job and takes a long time, and they can get only one or, at the most, two Bills of that size and complexity through Parliament in a single Session. Therefore, it is extremely convenient to extend the field of nationalisation almost without limit by the backdoor and by a process of pure administration, such as can be done by inserting wide and unlimited powers of this kind in a nationalisation Bill. It is, in fact, what the Government are doing. They ought to be perfectly frank about it and admit it, and it ought to be placed on record, for that is really what their object appears to be—to extend the field of nationalisation to an almost unlimited extent by putting in a small and apparently harmless provision of this kind in a nationalisation Bill

Colonel Clarke (East Grinstead)

The disappearance of this paragraph in Committee was somewhat surprising, but it was welcome. As it stands, I think, it neutralises a great deal of the work that was done in trying to define the duties and functions of the Board. A very great deal of detailed work will be rendered valueless as a result of this Amendment. Although I do not like statutory rules and -orders I do suggest that, if more elasticity is wanted, it might be better in this' case instead of having these words, to allow statutory rules and orders which might be considered in this House. Once these words are put into the Bill great powers will be given that cannot be questioned in any way.

Mr. R. S. Hudson

The Parliamentary Secretary, when defending the restoration of this paragraph, justified it on two grounds. He said that it was necessary in order to enable the Authority to carry on such things as canteens or to provide residences for workers in out of the way places. In order to do that, this paragraph is entirely unnecessary; because in Clause 47 specific provision is made for the Authority to consult with the associa- tions of employees, and so forth, with a view to the provision of welfare activities; and, clearly, the provision of a canteen comes within welfare. Therefore, the Authority, under the terms of the Bill as it stands, would have ample powers to do that. He went on to say that the other object of this Amendment is to enable the Boards, when they take over the assets of certain holdings which have nothing to do with electricity, to sell them to the best advantage. We would not query that at all; but it is quite unnecessary, in order to enable the Central Authority to sell assets that are not connected with the generation or distribution of electricity, to give them these extremely wide powers; it is not necessary to give them these powers to carry out that very narrow purpose. Therefore, the Government Front Bench have made out no case for this Amendment.

Ithas been the practice of Parliament throughout the history of Bills dealing with electricity, conferring powers either on local authorities or on private companies, to specify in great detail the powers and duties that are to be exercised by the local authorities as undertakers or by companies. These powers, which resemble ordinary omnibus powers in an ordinary public company's memorandum, are entirely new in the history of this House and in the history of the generation and distribution of electricity in this country, and are quite clearly unnecessary for the efficient functioning of the Centra] Authority. In these circumstances I regret very much the Government have seen fit to put down this Amendment, and to try to reverse the decision made upstairs. Certainly, on the arguments that have been put forward, I think any dispassionate reader of the Debate, or anyone who has listened to the Debate so far, will agree that no case for the Amendment has been made out.

Mr. Turner-Samuels (Gloucester)

I do not think that this Amendment ought to be allowed to go by with what the right hon. Gentleman has just now said uncorrected. What it provides is quite clear. Clause 47 says that the Central Authority may seek consultation with any organisation in order to promote and encourage welfare matters, not to set up canteens. That is an entirely different matter.

Mr. Hudson

Perhaps, with the permission of the House, I might read it again. Clause 47 reads: the promotion and encouragement of measures affecting the safety, health and welfare … Quite clearly, the establishment of canteens is a measure affecting the welfare

of persons employed in the factory or generating station concerned.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 243; Noes, 99.

Division No. 275. AYES [4.11 p.m.
Adams, Richard (Balham) Gaitskell, H. T. N. Messer, F.
Alpass, J. H. Ganley, Mrs. C. S Middleton, Mrs. L.
Anderson, A. (Motherwell) Gibbins, J. Mikardo, Ian
Anderson, F (Whitehaven) Glanville, J. E. (Consett) Moody, A S
Attewell, H. C. Goodrich, H. E. Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)
Austin, H. Lewis Gordon-Walker, P. C. Morris, P.(Swansea, W.)
Awbery, S. S. Greenwood, A. W J (Heywood) Morrison, Rt. Hon H. (L'wish'm, E.)
Ayles, W H Grey, C. F. Moyle, A.
Ayrton Gould, Mis. B Grierson, E Murray, J. D
Bacon, Miss A. Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley) Nally, W
Barstow, P. G Guest, Dr. L. Haden Neal, H. (Claycross.)
Barton, C. Guntar, R. J Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)
Battley. J. R. Guy, W H Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Beattie, J. (Belfast, W.) Haire, John E (Wycombe) Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)
Bechervaise, A. E Hale, Leslie Oldfield, W. H
Berry, H. Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R. Oliver, G H
Beswick, F. Hannan, W (Maryhill) Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Binns, J. Hardy, E. A. Palmer, A M. F.
Blyton, W. R. Harrison, J. Parker, J
Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton) Hastings, Dr. Somerville Parkin, B. T
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge) Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick) Paton, J. (Norwich)
Bramall, E. A. Herbison, Miss M. Peart, Thomas F.
Brook, D (Halifax) Hobson, C. R. Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)
Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell) Holman, P. Popplewell, E.
Brown, T. J. (Ince) Holmes, H. E (HemsworthJ Porter, G. (Leeds)
Bruce, Major D. W. T. House, G Price, M. Philips
Buchanan, G. Hoy, J. Pritt, D. N.
Butler, H W. (Hackney, S.) Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.) Proctor, W. T
Callaghan, James Hughes, Hector (Abe'deen, N.) Pryde, D. J.
Carmichael, James Hughes, H D. (Wolverhampton, W) Pursey, Cmdr H
Castle, Mrs. B. A. Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme) Randall, H. E
Champion, A. J. Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.) Ranger, J.
Chater, D. Janner, B. Rankin, J.
Chetwynd, G. R Jay, D. P. T Rees-Williams. D. R
Cluse, W. S. Jeger, G (Winchester) Rhodes, H.
Cocks, F. S Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Paneras, S.E.) Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Collindridge, F. Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools) Royle, C.
Collins, V. J. Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin) Sargood, R
Colman, Miss G. M. Kendall, W. D. Scollan, T.
Comyns, Dr. L. Kenyon, C. Sharp, Granville
Corbet, Mrs F K: (Camb'well, N.W) King, E. M. Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.
Corlett, Dr J. Kinley, J. Shurmer, P.
Corvedale, Viscount Kirby, B. V. Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Cove, W. G. Lang, G. Simmons, C. J.
Daggar, G. Lavers, S. Skeffington, A. M.
Davies, Ernest (Enfield) Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J Skeffington-Lodge, T. C
Davies, Hayden (St. Pancras, S.W.) Lee, F. (Hulme) Skinnard, F. W.
Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) Lee, Miss J (Cannock) Smith, C. (Colchester)
Deer, G. Lever, N. H. Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S)
Delargy, H. [...] Levy, B. W. Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)
Diamond, J Lewis, A. W J. (Upton) Snow, Capt. J W
Dodds, N N Lewis, J. (Bolton) Solley, L. J.
Denovan, T. Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. Soskice, Maj. Sir F
Driberg, T. E. N. Logan, D. G Sparks, J. A.
Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich) Longden, F Stamford, W
Dumpleton, C. W Lyne, A. W Steele, T.
Dye, S. McAdam, W. Stephen, C
Ede, Rt. Hon. J C McEntee, V. La T Stokes, R. R
Edelman, M. McGhee, H. G. Stross, Dr B.
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C (Bedwellty) Mack, J. D. Stubbs, A. E.
Evans, E. (Lowestoft) McKay, J (Wallsend) Swingler, S.
Evans, John (Ogmore) McKinlay, A S Sylvester, G. 0.
Evans, S. N. (Wednetbury) McLeavy, F Symonds, A L
Ewart, R. Macpherson, T. (Romford) Taylor, H. B (Mansfield)
Farthing, W. J Mainwaring, W H Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Fernyhough, E. Mann, Mrs. J. Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)
Field, Captain W. J Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.) Thomas, I. 0. (Wrekin)
Follick, M. Manning, Mrs L. (Epping) Thomas, John R. (Dover)
Foot, M. M. Mathers, G Thomson, Rt. Hon. G R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)
Forman, J. C. Medland, H. M Thorneycrofl Harry (Clayton)
Freeman, Peter (Newport) Mellish, R J Thurtle, Ernest
Tiffany, S. Watkins, T. E. Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)
Timmons, J. Watson, W. M. Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)
Titterington, M. F. Webb, M. (Bradford, C.) Williams, W. R (Heston)
Tolley, L. Wells, P. L. (Faversham) Willis, E.
Turner-Samuels, M Westwood, Rt. Hon. J. Wills, Mrs. E A
Usborne, Henry White, H (Derbyshire, N.E.) Woods, G. S
Vernon, Maj W. F. Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W Wyatt, W.
Viant, S. P. Wigg, Col G. E. Yates, V F
Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst) Wilkes, L.
Wallace, H W. (Walthamstow, E.) Wilkins, W. A. TELLERS FOK THE AYES:
Warbey, W. N. Willey, F. T (Sunderland) Mr. Pearson and Mr. Dairies.
NOES.
Amory, D. Heathcoat Head, Brig. A. H. Neven-Spence, Sir B
Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C. Nicholson, G
Baldwin, A E. Henderson, John (Cathcart) Noble, Comdr. A. H. P
Barlow, Sir J. Hope, Lord J. Peake, Rt. Hon. 0.
Beechman, N. A. Howard, Hon. A. Peto, Brig. C. H. M.
Birch, Nigel Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport) Pickthorn, K.
Bower, N. Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'gh, W) Raikes, H. V.
Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.) Ramsay, Maj. S.
Braithwaite, Lt-Comdr. J. G. Jarvis, Sir J. Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Keeling, E. H Roberts, H. (Handsworth)
Bullock, Capt. M. Kerr, Sir J. Graham Robinson, Wing-Comdr. Roland
Butcher, H. W. Lambert, Hon. G Ropner, Col. L.
Challen, C. Lancaster, Col. C. G. Ross Sir R. D. (Londonderry)
Channon, H Law, Rt. Hon. R. K. Savory, Prof. D. L.
Clarke, Col. R. S. Lipson, D. L Scott, Lord W.
Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G. Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.) Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)
Corbett, Lt.-Col. U. (Ludlow) Low, Brig. A. R. W. Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E Lucas-Tooth, Sir H. Snadden, W, M.
Crowder, Capt. John E. MacAndrew, Col. Sir C. Spearman, A. C. M
Cuthbert, W. N. McCallum, Maj. D. Spence, H. R.
Davidson, Viscountess Macdonald, Sir P. (I of Wight) Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)
De la Bère, R. McKie, J. H. (Galloway) Studholme, H. G.
Digby, S. W. MacLeod, J. Thornton-Kemsley, G N
Dodds-Parker, A. D. Macmlllan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) Thorp, LT.-CoI, R. A. F
Duthie, W. S. Macphprson, N. (Dumfries) Touche, G. C.
Eccles, D. M. Maitland, Comdr. J. W. Wadsworth, G
Eden, Rt. Hon. A. Marlowe, A. A. H. Walker-Smith, D
Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L. Marshall, D. (Bodmin) Ward, Hon. G. R
Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone) Marshall, S. H. (Sutton) Webbe, Sir H. (Abbey)
Galbraith, Cmdr. T D. Medlioott, F. Wheatley, Colonel M J
Gammans, L. D. Mellor, Sir J.
Grant, Lady Moore. Lt -Col. Sir T. TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Grimston, R. V. Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen) Mr. Drewe and Major Conant.
Hare, Hon. J H (Woodbridge) Morris-Jones, Sir H.
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Westwood)

I beg to move, in page 5, line 16, after "shall," to insert: subject to the provisions of the Act of 1943. This Amendment makes it clear that the specific provisions of the Hydro-Electric Development (Scotland) Act, 1943, are not superseded by the new provisions in this Bill.

Amendment agreed to.