§ Sir W. DAVISON(by Private Notice)asked the Prime Minister whether the Bill which will embody in precise detail what are officially described as the "Articles of Agreement for a Treaty between Great Britain and Ireland" will be open for amendment by Parliament, or whether the provisions of such Bill will have to be accepted by Parliament without alteration or rejection, as in the case of a treaty with a foreign State?
§ Mr. W. THORNEBefore the right hon. Gentleman answers that question, will he give us any guarantee that bricklayers in Ireland will be called upon to lay so many bricks a day?
§ The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Lloyd George)Parliament has, of course, power to effect any change it desires in the terms of the instrument, but it is clear that any alterations made in the Agreement on either side would, in the 127 absence of the consent of both parties, destroy the pact, and negotiations would have to be re-opened with all the risk that would involve to the prospects of a settlement.
§ Sir W. DAVISONIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that that gives quite a different complexion to the statement he made in the House on the 27th October? The right hon. Gentleman was asked then by the hon. and learned Member for York (Sir J. Butcher):
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question as to whether the terms of settlement are to be open to revision and alteration by Parliament?The Prime Minister replied:Most distinctly. It will be quite impossible to have a settlement except with the full consent of Parliament. The whole of the terms will be submitted to Parliament on the assumption that there is a settlement, and every provision will have to be ratified by Parliament even to the smallest detail."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th October, 1921; col. 1025, Vol. 147.]
§ The PRIME MINISTERI do not think that there is anything inconsistent in the answer I gave then and the answer I give now. Nothing that the Government can do prevents Parliament altering any provisions, however minute, but Parliament will have to act with the same sense of responsibility as that with which the Government acts, with the knowledge that if there be an alteration, it does re-open the whole pact for further negotiations.
§ Major O'NEILLWill the Bill which is to be introduced set out the details of this Agreement, or is it to be a short Bill merely ratifying the Treaty, as is the case with a treaty with a foreign power?
§ The PRIME MINISTERI should not like to give an answer, as obviously the matter will have to be considered very carefully with the Parliamentary draftsmen together with the legal advisers, and there has not been time to go into that question.
§ Mr. SEXTONDoes the right hon. Gentleman not think that these questions have been deliberately put with the object of preventing the ratification of the Treaty?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member must not impute motives to his fellow-Members.
§ Captain Viscount CURZONMay I ask whether it is an Agreement or a Treaty?
§ The PRIME MINISTERIt is an Agreement in the nature of a Treaty, exactly in the same way as the "Articles of Agreement" entered into by the Act of Union was called a Treaty by both parties in this House.
§ Lieut.-Colonel CROFTArising out of the original reply of the right hon. Gentleman, is not the effect then, that even if a majority of this House desire to improve that Measure, practically their hands are fettered—the hands of the House of Commons are being tied?
§ The PRIME MINISTERThey will be fettered in the same sense exactly as the representatives of the Irish people on the other side; that is, whoever on either side alters the pact must do it with the full knowledge that it means re-opening the negotiations, and what is true of this side is equally true of the other side. If alterations are to be made here, my hon. Friend may depend upon it that alterations will be urged upon the other side; and, if they are made, they must be made on both sides with a full knowledge of what the results will be.
§ Sir J. BUTCHERIs there any constitutional precedent for this result, namely, that when a Bill is brought before this House for fundamentally altering the constitution of Great Britain and Ireland, the hands of the House of Commons should be absolutely tied, and the House prevented from making any Amendment, except under the conditions which the right hon. Gentleman now states?
§ The PRIME MINISTERThere are no conditions affecting the rights and privileges of this House, but I repeat again that the House, when it comes to consider Amendments to be moved, must do so with a full sense and full recognition of what the effect of the Amendments will be.
§ Sir J. BUTCHERDo I understand that the effect of an Amendment carried in this House—carried at the wish of the great majority of independent Members of this House—will be to destroy the Agreement altogether, and is that not fettering the action of the House?
§ Sir W. DAVISON rose—
§ Mr. SPEAKERHon. Members are now arguing the matter. The effect of Amendment is a matter of argument when the time comes.
§ Sir W. DAVISONThat is not the point I was going to put. I was going to ask the Prime Minister whether he would not, at any rate, see that the title was made correct. At present it reads, "Treaty between Great Britain and Ireland." It is not a Treaty between Great Britain and Ireland.