§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
§ Clause 4:—
§ MR. VILLIERS (Brighton)moved an Amendment the effect of which would be to allow Cowper-Temple instruction to be given side by side with denominational teaching. He said he wished his speech could be as short as his Amendment, but he was afraid that was impossible, as it was only to leave out the word "the" in the second line on page 3. The Amendment might appear a very trivial one, but the Committee would see that it had far-reaching results. There was nothing in the whole of the Bill against Cowper-Temple instruction until they reached this clause. If a school became a transferred school ipso facto Cowper-Temple teaching was allowed. By this clause facilities were granted, under certain conditions, for special religious instruction 960 to be given, and the clause then referred to that instruction as the religious instruction of the school that was to say, the whole, not part, of the religious instruction. If the hon. Members would read the clause they would see it inferred that, when once facilities were granted, those facilities would cover the whole field of religious instruction given in the school. As the clause now stood no provision whatever was made for the minority; when facilities were granted the local authority must either turn the children out or allow them to remain—he did not say to be converted or perverted, but verted to another denomination than that to which their parents belonged. But if the clause were without that little word "the" there was nothing whatever to prevent the local authorities from giving Cowper-Temple instruction alongside of denominational teaching if they considered the circumstances warranted it. In the case of a school of 400 children, though it might be able to prove its four-fifths, the local authority might say "why should the minority" (and one-fifth of 400 meant eighty children), "why should these eighty children be compelled to cross perhaps three more dangerous crossings or go another half mile, with the only alternative of becoming little Anglicans or Roman Catholics?" A mother thought more of one dangerous crossing than all the "isms" in the world. In a case of that kind local authorities might easily refuse these facilities, but, on the other hand, if this small word in the clause were omitted they might say, "Yes, we will grant you your facilities, because we find there is another room in the school where Cowper-Temple instruction can be given, and there is nothing in the Bill to prevent it. Here, to his mind, was an Amendment which ought to appeal to, all those in favour of popular control, because it gave the local authority more power to deal with exceptional cases. The ballot mitigated the coercion of the priest, and this Amendment would relieve the coercion of circumstances. He did not believe the local authority would use this power in any frivolous or partial way. The Amendment in many instances would favour the denominations by enabling them to receive facilities which they otherwise would not obtain, and the minority would be protected. He thought the Committee would see that the Amendment had a good deal 961 to be said for it. By getting rid of the definite article they could change the clause into a different article. If the Government accepted the Amendment it would go a long way towards converting the irritating "claws" into velvet paws.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 3, line 2, to leave out the word 'the.'"—(Mr. Villiers.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'the' stand part of the clause."
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. BIRRELL, Bristol, N.)said the Amendment was wholly inconsistent with Clause 4, which, whether people liked it or not, was to secure teaching of a denominational character. The whole object of the clause was to secure that the schools which fulfilled the very rigorous condition laid down in subsection (b) should be allowed to have the denominational teaching which was desired and no other. He did not think they could take into their consideration the question of the minority children for which no provision was made under the four-fifths clause. They went to the school because they liked it, and if they did not wish to they need not go. To accept the Amendment of his hon. friend would be to destroy to a considerable degree the denominational basis and the intention of the clause; therefore it was impossible for the Government to accept it.
§ LORD R. CECIL (Marylebone, E.)said it certainly appeared to him that the course indicated in the Amendment was a very desirable one to adopt in the interests of a real and true settlement. He felt sure that they would have ultimately
§ to come round to that settlement, because there was no other. He hoped that the Government, after carefully considering the matter more fully, would conclude that it was in the interests of that peace which they professed so much to desire that they should accept the solution suggested in the Amendment.
§ LORD MORPETH (Birmingham, S.)complained that Clause 4 was so restricted as to be almost valueless. They were told that it had to be so restricted in order to protect the children in single school areas. There was practically no school in England or Wales which had not more than one class room, and more than one teacher, and it would be perfectly easy to take the minority of the scholars into another room, and have them taught separately, without any injustice being done. The Amendment would enable the Government to sweep away one of the worst restrictions in the Clause, namely, that which limited it to certain areas by taking an arbitrary fraction of the parents, and saying that only where that fraction existed should denominational facilities be given. The Amendment made for elasticity and freedom in giving such religious teaching as was desired by the parents of the children.
§ MR. ASHLEY (Lancashire, Blackpool)considered that the Amendment would enable the children in a minority in a four-fifths school to receive religious instruction if their parents wished it.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided. Ayes, 344; Noes, 87. (Division List, No. 157.)
965| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire) |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Barnes, G. N. | Blake, Edward |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Barran, Rowland Hirst | Boland, John |
| Adkins, W. Rylands | Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Brace, William |
| Agnew, George William | Beale, W. P. | Branch, James |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Beauchamp, E. | Brigg, John |
| Alden, Percy | Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) | Bright, J. A. |
| Ambrose, Robert | Bellairs, Carlyon | Brocklehurst, W. D. |
| Armitage, R. | Benn, John Williams (Devonp'rt | Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Bennt W. (T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo. | Brunner, Sir John T. (Cheshire) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Bennett, E. N. | Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeen |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Bertram, Julius | Burke, E. Haviland- |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Bethell, J. H. (Essex Romford) | Burns, Rt. Hon. John |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Billson, Alfred | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Chas. |
| Byles, William Pollard | Hammond, John | M'Micking, Major G. |
| Cairns, Thomas | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis | Manfield, Harry (Northants) |
| Cameron, Robert | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Marnham, F. S. |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) | Massie, J. |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Harmsworth,R. L.(Caithness-sh | Meagher, Michael |
| Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight | Harrington, Timothy | Meehan, Patrick A. |
| Cawley, Frederick | Hart-Davies, T. | Menzies, Walter |
| Chance, Frederick William | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Harwood, George | Mond, A. |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Montagu, E. S. |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Mooney, J. J. |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Haworth, Arthur A. | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) |
| Clarke, C. Goddard | Hayden, John Patrick | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) |
| Cleland, J. W. | Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Morley, Rt. Hon. John |
| Clough, W. | Hazelton, Richard | Morrell, Philip |
| Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.) | Hedges, A. Paget | Morse, L. L. |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Helme, Norval Watson | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Murnaghan, George |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.) | Murphy, John |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Higham, John Sharp | Murray, James |
| Corbett, CH. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd | Hobart, Sir Robert | Myer, Horatio |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Nicholls, George |
| Cory, Clifford John | Hodge, John | Nolan, Joseph |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Hogan, Michael | Norman, Nenry |
| Cowan, W. H. | Holland, Sir William Henry | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Crombie, John William | Hooper, A. G. | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Crossley, William J. | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid) |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset,N.) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co. | Hudson, Walter | O'Brien, William (Cork) |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Illingworth, Percy H. | O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.) |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Jacoby, James Alfred | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Delany, William | Jardine, Sir J. | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Jones, David Brynmor(Swans'a) | O'Dowd, John |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.) | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Hare, Patrick |
| Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras,N. | Jones, William(Carnarvonshire) | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Dillon, John | Jowett, F. W. | O'Kelly,James (Roscommon, N |
| Dolan, Charles Joseph | Kekewich, Sir George | O'Malley, William |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Kelley, George D. | O'Mara, James |
| Duckworth, James | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Duffy, William J. | Kilbride, Denis | O'Shee, James John |
| Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Kincaid-Smith, Captain | Palmer, Sir Charles Marks |
| Dunne, Major E.Martin(Walsall) | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Kitson, Sir James | Partington, Oswald |
| Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward | Laidlaw, Robert | Paul, Herbert |
| Erskine, David C. | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Lamont, Norman | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Everett, R. Lacey | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid | Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Perks, Robert William |
| Fenwick, Charles | Lea, HughCecil (St. Pancras, E.) | Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Leese, SirJosephF, (Accrington) | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) |
| Field, William | Lehmann, R. C. | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | Lever,A. Levy(Essex, Harwich) | Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral) | Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Levy, Maurice | Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.) |
| Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter | Lewis, John Herbert | Radford, G. H. |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Raphael, Herbert H. |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Lundon, W. | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) |
| Fullerton, Hugh | Lough, Thomas | Reddy, M. |
| Furness, Sir Christopher | Lupton, Arnold | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Gibb, James (Harrow) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Gill, A. H. | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Rees, J. D. |
| Ginnell, L. | Macdonald, J.M. (FalkirkB'ghs | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. HerbertJohn | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Richards, Thos. (W.Monm'th) |
| Glendinning, R. G. | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mptn, |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Macpherson, J. T. | Richardson, A. |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.) | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Greenwood, Hamar (York) | MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal,E.) | Ridsdale, E: A. |
| Grove, Archibald | M'Callum, John M. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Gulland, Hon. W. | M'Crae, George | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Halpin, J. | M'Kenna, Reginald | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee |
| Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd | Steadman, W. C. | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Watt, H. Anderson. |
| Robinson, S. | Strachey, Sir Edward | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Robson, Sir William Snowdon | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Roche, Augustine (Cork) | Stuart, James (Sunderland) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Roche, John (Galway, East) | Sullivan, Donal | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Rose, Charles Day | Summerbell, T. | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Rowlands, J. | Sutherland, J. E. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Runciman, Walter | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) | Whitehead, Rowland |
| Russell, T. W. | Taylor. John W. (Durham) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | Taylor,Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | Tennant,SirEdward(Salisb'ry) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Scarisbrick, T. T. L. | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Sears, J. E. | Thomas,SirA. (Glamorgan,E.) | Williams. J (Glamorgan) |
| Shackleton, David James | Thomasson, Franklin | Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarth'n |
| Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) | Thorne, William | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) | Tomkinson, James | Williamson, A. |
| Shipman, Dr. John G. | Toulmin, George | Wilson, John Durham, Mid) |
| Silcock, Thomas Ball | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | Verney, F.W. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Sloan, Thomas Henry | Vivian, Henry | Winfrey, R. |
| Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Walker, H. De. R (Leicester) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim,S.) | Wallace Robert | Woodhouse,Sir J.T. (Huddersf'd |
| Snowden, P. | Walters, John Tudor | Woodhouse,Sir J.T. (Huddersf'd |
| Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) | Young, Samuel |
| Soares, Ernest J. | Ward, W.Dudley(Southampton | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Spicer, Albert | Wardle, George J. | Whiteley, and Mr. J. A |
| Stanger, H. Y. | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. | Pease. |
| Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn.Sir Alex. F | Dalrymple, Viscount | Middlemore, John Throgmorton |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Dixon, Sir Daniel | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield |
| Ashley, W. W. | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Duncan,Robert (Lanark Govan | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Balfour,Rt.Hn.A.J.(City Lond.) | Faber, George Denison (York) | Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Fardell, Sir T. George | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Fell, Arthur | Rawlinson, John Frederick P. |
| Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester) | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Ropner, Col. Sir Robert |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. | Forster, Henry William | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter |
| Beach,Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Heaton, John Henniker | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hervey, F.W.F.(Bury S.Ed'mds | Starkey, John R. |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Hill, HenryStaveley(Staff'sh.) | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Houston, Robert Paterson | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Hutton, Alfred Eddison | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt.Hn.Col.W. | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Turnour, Viscount |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Lee, ArthurH.(Hants.,Fareham | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Chamberlain,Rt. Hon. J.(Birm.) | Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col. A.R. | Willoughby, de Eresby, Lord |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham) | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Younger, George |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Magnus, Sir Philip | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Marks, H. H. (Kent) | Villiers and Viscount Mor- |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | peth. |
| Cross, Alexander | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ MR. BIRRELLmoved to insert words in Section 1 (a) requiring that the wishes of the parents in regard to extended facilities for special religious instruction should be ascertained as the result of a ballot taken in accordance with regula- 966 tions made for the purpose by the Board of Education. So far as he understood there had been no great opposition in regard to this proposal. He thought the only point they had to consider was whether the Board of Education should 967 not be left free to make the rules necessary for taking the ballot. He moved this Amendment because he believed this to be the best way of removing all suspicion as to the result they wished to make plain—namely, that the wishes of the parents had been consulted genuinely and properly, and without extraneous pressure. That was a suspicion which was easily raised in people's breasts, whether it was justified or not. This would be a valuable safeguard of subsection (a). He believed the ballot was generally recognised as the best means now known of getting the unbiassed opinion of a locality. He begged to move.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 3, line 7, after the word 'that,' to insert the words 'as the result of a ballot taken as to the wishes of the parents in accordance with regulations made for the purpose by the Board of Education it appears that.'"— (Mr. Birrell.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ MR. A. J. BALFOUR (City of London)did not raise any abstract objection to the ballot, but he thought the Government left the matter far too vague. The object of the right hon. Gentleman was to ascertain the wishes of the parents, uninfluenced by any extraneous persuasion or any question of pressure from any extraneous authority. His complaint was that this was a very unfair and unsatisfactory way of getting at the truth in the matter. He thought that, if the Government were reluctant to introduce into the Bill the regulations which they proposed to issue, they ought, at all events, to lay on the Table of the House before the Bill got much further, and certainly before it passed the Report stage, the kind of instructions which would be sent round to the various schools. There were two points in particular to which he attached importance and which he asked the right hon. Gentleman to consider. In the first place, the ballot ought to be taken by a thoroughly independent and impartial body. They should not be a body which had a distinct motive to arrive at one result rather than another. The right hon. Gentleman had truly said that it was very easy to raise suspicion that pressure had been put on individuals in regard to their votes. It was also very easy to raise suspicion that the decision had not been taken fairly, and 968 therefore it was very important that the method of taking the ballot should be independent of all parties, including the local authority. There was another and far more important point, and that was as to the kind of question to be put to the parents. The right hon. Gentleman had probably interested himself with the problem of the referendum as applied to political matters in some States. This was the referendum, and as the only answer to the question asked would be "Aye," or "No," everything turned on the form in which the question was prepared. It was absolutely necessary that the question put should be one which really elicited the point whether the parents desired the teaching in a particular school to go on in the future as in the past. The Government ought to tell the Committee in what form they thought the referendum should be put to the parents; it should be in one simple, clear form.
§ MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)said he had no objection to the ballot; on the contrary, he favoured it; but he thought the points put by the Leader of the Opposition were of vital importance. Really they could not come to any decision on the matter until they knew what kind of question was going to be put. It was perfectly possible, without any deep design, that the parents might not know what was meant by the question they would have to ballot upon; for example, if they were simply asked whether they desired special facilities under Clause 4. The point put by the right hon. Gentleman was a reasonable and most important one, and they should have, before the Bill passed out of Committee, a draft of the regulations that were to obtain with regard to the taking of the ballot. The question put should be simple and should not be framed with any desire to carry out one particular view. He was sure that the Minister for Education would be able to give an assurance that the ballot would not be taken by people who were thoroughly hostile to the granting of the facilities. There was one other point. In order to take this ballot it would be necessary to keep in every school a complete register of parents. He did not say that that was a very difficult task; but it was absolutely essential to the carrying out of Clause 4, 969 whether they had a ballot or not. When he advocated a committee of parents one difficulty that was raised against him was the impossibility of keeping a register of parents. But Clause 4 could not be put into operation at all unless a register of parents was kept very carefully He confessed that if a plan could be devised by which a committee of parents could be fairly elected to represent the schools it would be a very much simpler scheme than that proposed by the Minister for Education.
§ MR. STUART (Sunderland)said that certain alterations would be necessary in this subsection if the words proposed by the Minister for Education were adopted. So long as Subsection (a) stood as originally framed it would be quite easy to carry it out; but the moment the ballot was introduced it would be impossible to say whether it was four-fifths of the parents or four-fifths of the children. If the ballot of which he approved was introduced, the remainder of the clause must be altered so as to make it possible to determine what was meant by the ballot.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that the point raised by the hon. Gentleman was important, and he took shame to himself that he had not seen it before. He was not anxious to find a case against the ballot; but, after all, it was the children they had to consider. The Bill was originally framed on the right lines according to the number of children that would be affected, and not the number of parents. The new proposal entirely destroyed the old form of the clause.
§ MR. STUARTsaid that the difficulty could be met by issuing ballot forms according to the number of children.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not know what the rural voter was going to do if he had to deal not only with the ballot but with plural voting. But he thought the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman was well worth considering.
§ SIR GILBERT PARKER (Gravesend)said that the Committee were at a disadvantage in not having before them the regulations for taking the ballot. In 970 the Public Libraries Act, if a ballot was taken, another ballot could not be taken until a certain number of years had elapsed. Under this subsection, was the judgment of the parents of a particular locality to be final?
§ MR. PERKS (Lincolnshire, Louth)said that each child would be-supplied with a little voting paper to take home for the purpose of the ballot. The ballot would be according to the number of children and not the number of parents. From the beginning he had been opposed to the clause. He believed it was a bad clause. The more it was examined the more impossible it would be found. He did not agree with the Leader of the Opposition that the number of children should govern this question at all. It should be four-fifths of the parents of the children. The clause would enable a parent if he had six children to give three ballot papers: in one direction and three in another. [An HON. MEMBER: Why not?] It would balance one-half of a family against the other. He mentioned these points to show how hopelessly unsatisfactory the clause was.
§ MR. BIRRELLsaid that the animus of his hon. friend the Member for Louth, which was no doubt genuine, was to be judged by his objection to every line and word in the clause. The discussion showed that the Government were wise to leave the matter to be decided by regulations, though he admitted that the regulations should be within the knowledge of the Committee before they parted company with the Bill. He did not agree with what had been said about the local authorities. He could not imagine that the ballot was to be taken away from the local authorities because someone attributed to them a desire that the result should be of a particular kind which would not require them to give the four-fifths facilities. He did not think that that was a fair way of putting it. The ballot-box, once put into operation, provided that the question put was a proper one, was above all suspicion. That had always been the method of the ballot-box. It did not matter who provided it, the ballot-box was not open to the charge of animus. The question 971 of importance was that in every part of the country the form of the question should be the same, and that in that sense it should be statutory. The noble Lord the Member for East Marylebone had an Amendment in which he gave his own view as to the form of the question which should be put—a very natural, proper and sensible question, viz.:—
Do you wish the religious instruction in the school where your children attend to remain of the same character as it is now?But the feeling of the Government was that, if it were possible, the form in which the question was put should be very closely identified with the form of the Statute itself. He did not say that that was absolutely essential, but it was the view of experts. The subject, however, would be most carefully considered, and an opportunity would be given to discuss the form of the question before they parted with the Bill in this House. In regard to the point raised by his hon friend behind him they had always intended that the parent should have as many ballot balls or forms as he had children, so that the parent of six children should have six times the voting power of the parent of one child. Let them hope that six would be the maximum. He was not putting any limit to the fecundity of the population of the country; he only said that the school age was limited from five to thirteen years, and, therefore, that of itself would limit the number of children of any one parent in average attendance at school at one and the same time. Therefore, there was no difficulty in that way. He insisted that this was a question of the children, and not of the parents. It was the number of children in the schools that determined its denominational character. It was not the parents sitting at home: it was not a question of stocks and roots which were more or less prolific; but a question of the number of children in the schools. If he might use language with which he was formerly more familiar than now, they should decide this question per capita and not per stirpes. He fully recognised the absolute necessity that the question to be put should appear in the regulations, and that it should be one and the same question for all parts of the country; and he would see that the 972 regulations were placed on the Table of the House as soon as possible.
§ MR. VERNEY (Buckinghamshire, N.)said that the real difficulty underlying this particular part of the subject was the making of regulations on an unstable basis. There could hardly be a more fluctuating and uncertain basis for calculation of the four-fifths than the numbers of children going to a school or leaving it. The parents of four-fifths of the children at a school in August would probably have a very different proportion of the children in September after the summer holidays. What was really wanted to be known was the opinions of a large majority of the parents, not those of their children. The strength of a parent's religious convictions did not depend upon the number of his children at school. The gratuitous introduction of such an extremely unstable basis of calculation of the four-fifths was unfortunate arid would lead to unnecessary confusion in a case where the element of stability was very important to prevent the constant recurrence of religious squabbling.
THE CHAIRMANsaid that they were now discussing the question of the ballot. The point raised by the hon. Member would come later on.
§ MR. VERNEYsaid that in that case he would reserve his remarks till a later period.
§ SIR E. CARSON (Dublin University)inquired whether when the word "parents" was used it meant both parents or only one parent; that was to say, was the mother as well as the father included.
§ MR. BIRRELLsaid the word meant the responsible parent under the Act of 1870.
§ SIR E. CARSONpointed out that the Act of 1870 did not give any definition of the word "parents." If the Bill were left as it stood, the matter would be quite open, and this would lead to utter absurdity. Supposing there were six children in the family, would there be six votes; and, if so, who was to exercise them the father or the mother?
§ MR. BIRRELLOne or the other.
§ SIR E. CARSONinsisted that some provision dealing with this matter ought to be inserted in the Bill.
§ MR. BLAKE (Longford, S.)quite agreed that the Committee should take a strong line upon this matter and see that the questions put to parents in regard to voting were intelligible and such as the rural population could understand.
§ LORD R. CECILhoped that the right hon. Gentleman would, in dealing with this matter, be guided by his own common sense and would not take the advice of experts. He could not but regret that the right hon. Gentleman had introduced the ballot in this matter, as he thought the scheme was more workable before than since its introduction, Let him put a difficulty which the Tight hon. Gentleman would see was a Teal one which would arise under paragraphs (a) and (b). Under paragraph (a) it had to be ascertained that the parents of at least four-fifths of the children attending the schools desired the facilities, and under paragraph (b) it had to be ascertained that there was public school accommodation in schools not affected by a permission given under the section for the children attending the schools whose parents did not desire those facilities. That meant that in taking the vote they had to take into account the number of parents of children who were in favour of the continuance of the facilities in the schools, and then the facilities would be afforded if there was school accommodation for the remainder of the children. Let them take the case of a school in which there was no definite accommodation for any of the children in the matter of religious instruction except with regard to those children whose parents were satisfied with the religious instruction already afforded in the school. Because one parent was lazy and failed to record his vote, were the whole of the other children to be deprived of these facilities? The sub-sections assumed that there must be a unanimous vote. He also wished to ask a question as to an Amendment which appeared on the Paper in the name of 974 the President of the Board of Education. It ran—
Where the local education authority refuse to agree to an arrangement offered to them by the owners of the schoolhouse of an existing voluntary school as respects the use of the schoolhouse, and the school is one in respect of which extended facilities could be granted under this section, and are desired, the owners of the schoolhouse may appeal to the Board of Education, and that Board may, if they think fit, after considering the circumstances of the case, and the wishes of the parents of children attending the school as to the continuance of the school with extended facilities, by order, make an arrangement under this Act with respect to the use of the schoolhouse on such terms and conditions as may be contained in the order, including, if thought fit, a condition requiring extended facilities to be afforded, but if under any special circumstances of the case the Board think it expedient, they may, instead of making such an arrangement, make an order allowing the school to continue as a State-aided school. Provided that—There was little there about the parents, but the main reference was to the local education authority. How were they going to discover the will of the parent under that proposal? No machinery seemed to be contemplated. The provision seemed to have been inserted to meet the unreasoning fear of the Nonconformists that the parson of the parish was a sort of dragon going about seeking whom he might devour.
§ MR. BIRRELLsaid he could not distinguish between reasonable and unreasonable parsons. He could only deal with what he found existing. He had had experience of the class of parson— whom he hoped formed the majority of the clergy of the country—who were the noblest of their species; who were loved by everybody in their parishes, and could do almost anything they liked with everybody in them. He had had experience of that class of parson, but there were other members of the clergy with whom it was almost impossible to get on, as he knew very well as a Nonconformist. As to the noble Lord, what was his first point? It went on the supposition that there would not be public school accommodation for one child.
§ LORD R. CECILsaid that, as he took it, there must be unanimity where there was no other school accommodation.
§ MR. BIRRELLdid not think the noble Lord's fears would be realised having regard to the limits which they had fixed by this clause, namely, that it only applied in urban areas. The argument of the noble Lord as to the injustice was very far fetched. The parents could come in upon the local inquiry, and the conditions of the local inquiry were that at least four-fifths of the parents of the children should desire these facilities. Whether the parents desired them would form part of the inquiry. He had indicated to the noble Lord the other day that he was quite willing to insert words to secure the rights of parents and of the owners of schools to raise the matter when it came to a question of a local inquiry, but the local inquiry necessitated a ballot.
§ SIR E. CARSONwished to know how they were to ascertain under sub-section (b) if the parents did not desire it.
§ MR. BIRRELLsaid the matter was easy enough. They knew the children in the schools and their parents, and the inquiry would show whether four-fifths of the parents desired the facilities or not.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURdid not think the right hon. Gentleman appreciated his noble friend's point. It might be arguable whether it was fair to destroy the denominational organisation of a school because one child could not find accommodation for religious instruction in the neighbourhood. The ballot would tell them whether four-fifths of the parents desired denominational teaching, but there was nothing to show that those who abstained from the ballot did not also desire denominational teaching. It was essential, if the Government were to carry out their own plan, to discover not only whether the parents desired accommodation, but whether any of the parents desired accommodation elsewhere. Then abstention might and probably would be a matter to be taken into account. As he understood, what his noble friend desired was that mere abstention from the ballot should not be taken as an indication of a preference for another kind of school.
§ MR. BIRRELLsaid he did not agree with the right hon. Gentleman in this matter. Let them suppose that in a school of 100 children they took a ballot. The ballot showed that the parents of eighty of the children had' an active desire for denominational facilities and the parents of twenty did not vote. In that case accommodation must be provided for those twenty children in some other school. They did not desire the facilities. It was the active desire indicated by the vote that showed who desired facilities, and if the parents of the twenty did not care to take the trouble to go to the poll he knew of no other way to deal with the point. The Bill said they could get the facilities and advantages if they showed an active desire, by vote, for them. If they did not vote it must be taken that they did not desire them. Then sub-section (b) said that the eighty could not have their four-fifths facilities unless there was another school in the neighbourhood to which the twenty children who did not desire these facilities might go.
§ MR. WYNDHAM (Dover)asked whether it was suggested that a man who was on a bed of sickness and who was in favour of facilities being given was to go and vote, or were they to assume there was unanimity. The fair way to vote would be to put the 'ayes" into one box and the "noes" into another.
§ MR. DILLONsaid that the President of the Board had laid down the most astounding doctrine he had ever heard of. The right hon. Gentleman had lately been before a constituency. Supposing the doctrine he had laid down was applied in that constituency would he be willing to count every voter who did not vote as a man who did not want him as a Member? It was precisely the same thing. There were always a certain proportion of men who did not vote in a Parliamentary election, and what the right hon. Gentleman wanted to do in this case was to take all those who did not vote and count them on one side of the issue. A more unfair and astonishing doctrine he had never heard of. Anyone who had had any experience of elections knew perfectly well that a perfect 977 vote was never obtained; that for some reason or other people would neglect to vote. To take everybody who for some reason or other could not vote, the sick, the dying, the absent on a journey, sailors, soldiers, commercial travellers and people of all kinds whose business took them away at the time of voting, and say that they were all to be counted as being against the facilities would turn the whole thing into an absolute mockery, and do a double injustice, because not only would they count those who did not vote as being against the facilities, but their children would be counted as children who would not remain in the schools. A great number would not vote because they belonged to a different religion, and although they had no objection to the facilities would rather see the facilities given without their active cooperation. Yet these people were to be counted as being against the facilities.
§ MR. SAMUEL EVANS (Glamorganshire, Mid.)said he thought the hon. Member had entirely misplaced the analogy of the constituency and the election. The issue was not the same. Let them take a school of 100 children. If they had only ten persons going to vote for these facilities, and there were less than two on the other side, that would decide the issue, whereas the clause said "the parents of four-fifths of the children" had expressed a desire for these facilities. It was not a question to be decided by a majority of those who went to the poll, so to speak. That was not the clause. The clause said that they should not have facilities unless the parents of four-fifths of the children desired them. It was a perfectly simple clause. It allowed people with strong views to claim these facilities, and the least those people could do if they desired the facilities was to express their desire by ballot. In a school of 100 children if the parents of eighty of them voted for the facilities they could have them if they showed there was sufficient school accommodation in the district for the twenty children the parents of whom did not desire the facilities. That was as he understood the clause.
§ SIR E. CARSONsaid the hon. and learned Member had apparently mis- 978 taken the point of his hon. friend. This point was one of real substance. Let the Committee consider the case put by the hon. Gentleman where; they had the votes of four-fifths of the parents of the 100 children in the school, and there remained twenty children who might be the children of four parents. Were they going to deprive the children of that school of special facilities because there was no other school in the neighbourhood to which the twenty children could go? Could anything be more monstrous? Supposing they communicated with those who were sick and could not vote and they were found to be unanimously in favour of the facilities, were they going to say that that was a school that should not have facilities? Supposing they had a unanimous school, of which there were many, the second school would not be availed of. Were they going to leave the whole question of facilities to the mere accident of health or absence? That would be not only a wanton absurdity but a monstrous injustice. The clause did not say the parents who did not vote or who happened to be ill or away, but the parents who did not desire these facilities. What they objected to was the right hon. Gentleman Setting up new machinery specially for ascertaining whether there were any parents who did not desire those facilities. One ballot at all events would not do for ascertaining two absolutely different questions. Personally he considered the whole question of the ballot in this matte absolutely foolish and inapplicable. But if they adhered to the principle of the ballot they had as much right to obtain accurately the views of those who did not desire the facilities as of those who did, and he suggested it would be much better to have the ballot under (b) than (a). It was much more proper to assume that a man did not vote because he was satisfied with existing arrangements than that he wanted something different. No answer had yet been given to this point. If they left the proposal as it was under the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment they would leave it in a state, not only of absolute confusion, but of absolute injustice. The right hon. Gentleman really must tell them how he was going to ascertain the parents of those who did not desire the facilities, 979 He could not be satisfied with the assumption that the sick and absent did not desire the facilities. That was not an argument which the right hon. Gentleman would use in any other assembly than the House of Commons. Unless machinery was set up, or the machinery was made applicable only to (b), he hoped his hon. friends on the Opposition side of the House at all events would persist until they got some logical method of determining questions which the right hon. Gentleman had himself raised.
§ THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir W. ROBSON,) South Shieldssaid hon. Gentlemen opposite were making great difficulties about what was inherent in every election. They all knew that persons who did not go to the ballot were ignored in the result of the election; they were not counted either on the one side or on the other. But the Government here had done better than in the case of the ordinary elections. Hon. Gentlemen opposite could have scarcely considered the fact of the public inquiry. The local authority had to settle two problems which he dared say were accompanied in the mode of settlement by some disadvantages. They had first to ascertain whether four-fifths of the parents desired the special facilities. They found that out by means of the ballot. The Government were not making any unreasonable assumption when they said that people who did not take advantage of the opportunity of expressing their desire did not possess that desire. There were no means by which to ascertain the feelings and opinions of people who would not go to vote. The local authority would have fulfilled its duty if it had found out how many persons desired facilities. It had next to consider the case of the persons who had not expressed their desire. For that purpose it had to look round and see whether there was school accommodation for the children of parents who did not desire the facilities. Let them take a case in which eighty parents out of 100 had declared themselves in favour of facilities. The question would then arise whether there was public school accommodation for the children of the twenty non-desiring parents. That was for the local authority to consider. The non-desiring parents 980 might appear at the public inquiry and say that the local authoritty need not trouble very much about the public school accommodation for their children. The Government had gone far beyond the ordinary electoral system in attempting to ascertain the wish of every parent— of those who desired facilities, and then of those who did not. To hear hon. Gentlemen speak about absent and sick parents, one would imagine that a general election must be invalid because a large number of persons entitled to vote were not at the polls. It was absolutely impossible to devise better means to ascertain the public will than the electoral machine, but the Bill supplemented those methods by a public inquiry which would ensure that every substantial body of parents in the area had their wishes expressed.
§ MR. CAVE (Surrey, Kingston)said he would give a concrete case. Let them take a school three miles or more from any other school, so that it was impossible to find alternate accommodation, and suppose that the parents of ninety-nine children out of 100 voted for Church of England teaching, but the parent of the remaining child, although a member of the Church of England, was absent, or ill, or for some reason would not vote. In such a case the whole thing would fall to the ground, because it was impossible in the instance he had put to fulfil the condition in sub-section (b). The point which the Solicitor-General put did not meet the difficulty at all. The hon. and learned Gentleman had said there would be a public inquiry at which the dissenting parents or any parent who did not vote could state their views. But this was a case of balloting. Nobody knew, and nobody would be entitled to know, who were the parents who had not voted or what were their opinions. Even supposing that a man did come forward and say that he waived condition (b), there was no provision in the Bill for giving effect to that waiver. The whole thing was unreasonable and unworkable. If there was to be a vote it should be held in such a way as to ascertain not only those who desired the facilities, but those who objected to them, and desired to have other forms of religious instruction. 981 He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would re-consider the whole matter.
THE CHAIRMANpointed out that the Committee were getting a little away from the Amendment regarding the ballot on sub-section (a), and drifting into a discussion on questions which could only be met by Amendments to subsection (b).
§ MR. STUARTsaid a great deal of what had been said by hon. Gentlemen, was criticism of what did not exist in the clause, although it was intended to be read or introduced into it. As the clause stood the ballot only applied to (a). It had been stated that the position would be ascertained at a public inquiry. If it was intended to be ascertained by ballot it should read "parents who have not expressed their desire to have those facilities."
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the hon. Member for Sunderland was mistaken as to the position in which the Committee found itself. The position had been illustrated by two speeches which were wholly inconsistent. The principle laid down by the Minister for Education was that every parent who did not vote in favour of facilities was supposed to be hostile. But that was not the version given by the Solicitor-General, who put forward a new theory) viz., that the proper method was the ballot, and in that way they would discover whether 80 per cent, of the parents did or did not require the facilities. The ballot was good enough for them, but there was another method of discovering those who did not want the facilities. Why was the ballot to be used to investigate the number who did want facilities and the public inquiry to find out the number who did not? Was there ever such an absurd scheme put forward?
§ SIR W. ROBSONsaid that was not his statement. He referred to subsection (b) which laid upon the local authority the duty of ascertaining whether there was public school accommodation in schools not affected by a permission given under the section for the children attending the school whose parents did not desire the facilities.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he thought that point was not in order. It was the business of the local authority by an investigation to discover the number of parents who really wanted their children to go elsewhere. Two methods were deliberately adopted by the Government. There was the ballot for those who desired denominational education and the public inquiry for those who did not. He thought that was ridiculous. The Government must feel that something would have to be done to meet this case. Were 90 per cent, of the children in a school to be deprived of denominational education because 10 per cent, were indifferent? Was that the policy of the Government? If so, could it stand criticism in any assembly which was net bound by the peculiar difficulties under which the Committee were now labouring? Could the Government hold that position for a moment but for the closure? Would they not be driven from it in hopeless rout? They could not support their case by any argument that would hold water before an impartial assembly. Was it, therefore, not advisable that the Government should devise some Amendment in the next few lines which would meet the justice and the equities of the case?
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH, Fife, E.)said he wished to point out what the intention of the Government was in introducing the Bill. Most of the criticism of the Leader of the Opposition had been addressed to the Clause. For what purpose was the parent introduced? Because it was the first condition preceding the granting of these facilities that the parents of at least four-fifths of the children should desire them. The original Bill provided no machinery for this purpose but the local inquiry, and so the Government thought, in the interests of accuracy and to avoid misconceptions, it would be better to determine that question by the machinery now provided. That was the Amendment which was now before the Committee. Then there arose the second of the two conditions on the fulfilment of which the enjoyment of the facilities depended. The right hon. Gentleman had said they were going to ignore 983 the ballot or misuse it in determining that question, but he contradicted that. Prima facie persons who had not expressed their desire by voting in the ballot were persons who might be assumed not to desire it. ["No"] That was only common sense. He did not think it would be right to assume from the fact that a man had not voted that that was conclusive on this point. A man might be away or ill, and there might be a number of reasons which would prevent him from exercising his vote, and for that reason it was very desirable that a public inquiry should be held in order that persons of this kind could come forward.
§ SIR WILLIAM ANSONBut the ballot follows the local inquiry.
§ MR. ASQUITHNot at all. But if there was any difficulty in that respect it could be put right. It was the intention of the Government that the ballot should be not conclusive proof that there was a four-fifths majority, but prima facie evidence that persons who did not vote "Aye" were persons who were not desirous of extended facilities. The local inquiry was supplementary, and might very well enable the local authority to determine whether or not in such cases as the right hon. Gentleman had now put extended facilities were wanted and could be given.
§ MR. BLAKE (Longford, S.)said this was not an ordinary ballot. It was a case in which four-fifths of the whole body of the electors were required to vote in order that the local authority might be induced to take a certain course in regard to the providing of facilities. It was clear, therefore, that the ballot would not represent the whole number of those who desired facilities. By taking a ballot they did not get the opinion of those parents who did not vote on account of sickness, absence on duty, or otherwise, and who always formed a considerable proportion of the whole body of electors. A local inquiry was a more elastic method of ascertaining the views of the parents, because the decision arrived at did not necessarily depend on the presence of every parent who desired to express an 984 opinion as in the case of a ballot. As a rule, almost invariably, there would be a larger number really and genuinely desiring facilities than those whose votes were recorded at the polls. The discussion in its present form was due to the statement which the Minister for Education had made as to the construction to be put on the result of the ballot. What had aroused feeling in the Committee Was the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that all the parents who did not, from whatever cause, say "Yes" were to be taken as saying "No." There must be a distinct assurance given that no such view would be taken, otherwise great injustice would be inflicted, and this clause-would become less operative for the purpose for which it was said to be intended than anybody could have expected.
§ MR. LAURENCE HARDY (Kent, Ashford)said he should like to bring before the Committee a concrete case which took place within four miles of where he lived in an urban district. In connection with a school attended by 300 children there was an inquiry to ascertain the desire of the parents with respect to religious instruction. The question put to them was in the very words contained in the Amendment proposed by the noble Lord, namely—
Do you wish the religious instruction in the school which your children attend to remain of the same character as it is now.The answers were not given under the ballot. All but seven of the parents answered the question in the affirmative, and further inquiry showed that of these seven parents four were Roman Catholics who, though in favour of religious instruction being given in the school, stated that they could not be expected to give their assent to the form of instruction which was given. The other three parents gave no answer, but there was no dissent on their part. This concrete case showed that instances of great difficulty would arise under the ballot. Were they to understand that the accommodation under sub-section (b) which was to be found in schools unconnected with extended facilities would only apply to the children of those who appeared at the public inquiry.
§ MR. LAURENCE HARDYsaid the Committee should have a clear statement from the Government as to what was really meant by ballot under the clause. The opinions of parents should not be judged by the fact of their voting or not voting.
§ Mr. BIRRELLsaid that the point before him earlier in the afternoon, when he got a little beyond the rules of order, was sub-section (a). He certainly said, and it was a view which was perfectly clear on the reading of the clause itself, that the parents of the children attending the school would have actively to make known their wishes. The fact to be determined under the very wording of the clause was that the parents of at least four-fifths of the children attending the school desired facilities, and if parents did not exercise their vote they could not be said by any possible rule of law, or equity, or common sense, to desire facilities. That was the whole concession of the clause, which was based upon the denominational anxiety of the parents. They were to express actively by vote in the ballot what their wishes were in the matter. Under sub-section (b) a public inquiry was to be held to ascertain whether or not there was sufficient accommodation in the schools for the number of children whose parents did not express a desire for facilities. In that inquiry nothing would be easier than to have evidence afforded that would go to show that parents who had not voted were not desirous of accommodation elsewhere. Parents who had not voted on account of ill-health, or for other reasons, could be represented at the public inquiry held to ascertain whether or not there was public school accommodation for the children who would be excluded by the denominational feelings of their parents from attending the four-fifths schools. A public inquiry would be a very foolish inquiry if it did not deal with the actual facts of the case. So far as sub-section (a) was concerned, he could not withdraw in any way from what he had said—that the only way of indicating 986 a desire to obtain the facilities was by recording a vote.
§ MR. WYNDHAMsaid that the proposal of the President of the Board of Education was a totally impracticable one. If it were adopted, an inquiry would in every case destroy any advantage supposed to be gained from the ballot. Unless there were as many votes given as there were children attending the school, there was a prima facie assumption, according to the argument of right hon. Gentleman opposite, that the remainder did not actually desire those facilities and the local authority was to consider whether there was the accommodation needed for the children represented by the absent voters; A 100 per cent, poll was unknown, so that in every case there would be this investigation or inquiry, which would embrace the consideration of why certain parents did not put in their votes. But how were they going to discover who did not vote? They could not have a scrutiny of a ballot of this character. At the local inquiry every man must be asked whether he had voted, and whether he had exhausted the whole of his voting power.
§ SIR HENRY FOWLER (Wolverhampton, E.)said he had rarely heard a more extraordinary statement than that to which the Committee had just listened. It was based on a misunderstanding of the whole situation both before and after the ballot. Let him recall to the Committee where they stood, and what promises were made by his right hon. friend at the commencement of the debate. His right hon. friend had distinctly stated that the regulations for the ballot—the whole machinery to be adopted—would be placed on the Table of the House before the Bill left the House of Commons. He had pledged himself to that, and yet a couple of hours had been spent in discussing what the regulations ought to be and in putting into his right hon., friend's mouth remarks which he did not make. This hurried on the guillotine more rapidly, and excluded consideration of other matters.
§ MR. WYNDHAMsaid that if the right hon. Gentleman wished to charge him 987 with having spoken in order to waste time, he was under a complete misapprehension. He had listened carefully to all that had fallen from the Minister for Education, and he did not think that he had misrepresented him by a single word.
§ SIR HENRY FOWLERrepudiated having made any charge against the right hon. Gentleman. What he had said was that the effect of this protracted debate on a detail not before the Committee, and which would come up at a subsequent stage, was a waste of time having regard to the serious questions which remained undiscussed. The whole of these proceedings depended upon the proving of a fact. It was that four-fifths of the parents of the children attending the school desired the school to go on as before. That was the fact to be ascertained; there was no contest. Let them take a concrete illustration. Suppose 100 children attended a school, before the owners of that school could claim that denominational education should be continued as before he must prove that the parents of eighty of the children were in favour of that course. If the fact were not proved there was an end of it. The matter was a very simple one. His right hon. friend would tell the Committee the machinery by which the ballot was to be worked. If the initial fact was proved, then the next stage was the submission of this demand by statutory right to the local authority to consider whether the claim should be granted. One of the terms of the inquiry then to be made was whether there was proper accommodation for the children who would not attend a four-fifths school.
§ SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that the Bill provided that there must be a public inquiry before the ballot took place. [MINISTERIAL cries of "No, no."]
§ SIR HENRY FOWLERmaintained that the initial procedure was to ascertain whether there were four-fifths in favour of the denominational education. It was easy to make paradoxical points regarding cases which did not happen in real life. No local authority having the knowledge that there was accommodation for the children remaining would split hairs in a manner totally contrary to common sense 988 and common judgment. There would be no occasion to argue whether the non-voters were for or against. As to the machinery of the ballot, the local authorities were quite capable, from long experience, of taking a ballot so as to secure absolute impartiality. If the eighty out of 100 were in favour of these facilities being extended they would have to be granted.
§ SIR THOMAS ESMONDEsuggested that it would be simpler to add an Amendment which would make it perfectly clear that the question should be decided by the parents who voted.
§ MR. HAROLD COX (Preston)appealed to the Government to ask themselves what their object was in inserting this clause in the Bill. Who was it that they wished to protect? Surely they wished to protect the minority who were not content with the denominational teaching given in the schools. There was no necessity to protect the majority who were content with the existing denominational teaching. They were satisfied with the status quo. The only injustice arose in regard to those who were dissatisfied with the status quo, and therefore they ought to ascertain the feelings of the minority and not of the majority.
§ SIR GILBERT PARKER (Gravesend)wished to know if he was correct in understanding the right hon. Gentleman to say that his interpretation of the clause was that if four-fifths of the parents of the children attending the school desired them, the facilities would be granted. Hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House had always understood that if accommodation was not found for the other fifth, that was to say, for the twenty out of the 100, the four-fifths could not enjoy the facilities.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMOND (Clare, E.)complained that he had not received a sufficient answer to his question whether the word "parents" included the mothers. He would like to have an answer to that question, because it was the most important that could be asked in regard to the Bill. The parents of many of the children 989 were working people and the fathers might be obliged to be absent at the time a ballot was taken. What he wanted to know was whether in such cases the mother of the children would be allowed to give the vote in regard to the facilities.
§ SIR W. ROBSONsaid that perhaps he might be allowed to answer the question, which he was sure he did not wish to evade. The ballot would be taken in accordance with regulations to be made by the Board, which would prescribe the method. Prima facie, the word "parent" would mean the father, who was, of course, the guardian of the child, but it would be quite open to the Board to prescribe a means by which the wish of the father could be ascertained by the vote of the mother. All these points would be carefully considered.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURrose to a point of order, and to clear up the situation wished to know whether it was possible at this stage to raise an Amendment by which the particular matters which the Opposition cared about could be brought to issue. They could not be brought to issue by merely voting for the actual Amendment before the Committee, and if it was not possible to amend that Amendment so as to make the issue a precise one, he would suggest that they should not rely upon this Amendment, but should wait until they arrived at Sub-section (b) to see whether the matter could not be raised in a precise and specific form.
THE CHAIRMANsaid it was not possible to reply to a question regarding an Amendment not before him. Until he saw the Amendment he could not possibly decide upon it. He had no Amendment before him, but undoubtedly many of the objections and criticisms which had been raised would be dealt with by Amendments to sub-section (b).
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that that being so, he thought they would do better not to divide at this point, but that they should raise the question on sub-section (b). Then they could take a division in a more decisive form;
§ MR. EVELYN CECIL (Aston Manor)moved to substitute "a reasonable number of parents" for "the parents of at least four-fifths." He said that the discussion which they had had showed that circumstances might arise which would make it undesirable to have a hard and fast line. There was no virtue in the particular fraction of four-fifths, and a more elastic proposal would remove many difficulties. He did not himself understand upon what ground this particular fraction had been fixed upon, I and he thought they were entitled I to ask for some explanation. The other day he suggested some considerations which he thought showed that facilities should be granted to a much smaller number than four-fifths of the parents. In Prussia there was a specific provision to the effect that special religious instruction should be given if it was desired for pupils to the number of twelve, which was usually a far smaller number than four-fifths of the whole school. The effect of that provision was that special religious instruction should be afforded if there was a minority of twelve pupils. In our industrial schools special denominational teaching was given in cases where the proportion was much less. At Osborne Naval College, with 420 cadets, special teaching was allowed for eighteen Roman Catholics among them, and he was assured by the authorities that there would be no difficulty in giving special denominational teaching to any cadets of the Free Churches all together. If the right hon. Gentleman's Regulations under the Act were applied to this college, however, these eighteen cadets would not have the instruction they desired. The authorities at Osborne College had told him that no hitch of any kind had occurred, and that there would be no difficulty or interference with discipline in providing special religious instruction for all the three Churches.
§ DR. MACNAMARA (Camberwell, N.)Who said that?
§ MR. EVELYN CECILThe authorities
§ DR. MACNAMARAWho are the authorities?
§ MR. EVELYN CECILThe commander and the chaplain.
§ DR. MACNAMARAOh! The chaplain.
§ MR. EVELYN CECILsaid the chaplain and those engaged in the work had actual knowledge, and although it might be easy to jeer at the working of the school, without having any knowledge of the actual facts, he put this case forward, not as a conclusive instance, but as one instance where an infinitely smaller figure than four-fifths obtained. But he should like to appeal to the specific statements made by the President of the Board of Education himself. The right hon. Gentleman had given some study to this question in an article in the Independent Review of October, 1903. Fe there wrote—
The parents really must, whether they like it or not, conquer their shyness, and, making their first appearance in this ancient and horrid controversy, tell us, when they send Tom and June to school, whether they wish them to receive any, and, if any, what, religious instruction. There is no elm nee of the multiplication of strange parental religions. We are not an imaginative people. Jews, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and Dissenters (in a lump) will usually exhaust the list.He knew that he seemed to be always engaged in bringing up the ghosts of the right hon. Gentleman's former utterances when he bad not the honour of sitting in this House or upon the Treasury Bench, and they were the very arguments which were now brought forward by the Opposition. There was no merit in four-fifths, no virtue in it. What if a fluctuating local population made four-fifths possible in one month and not in the next? He ventured to submit to the Committee that it would be much better to accept his Amendment that "a reasonable number" should be substituted for "four-fifths." He suggested that the right hon. Gentleman should make the experiment. If it failed, then another method might be adopted. But there was no reason why it should fail. It had been tried in many cases with success, and in his opinion there was no reason why the Government should 992 not accept the Amendment he now moved.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 3, line 7, to leave out the words 'the parents of at least four-fifths,' and insert the words 'a reasonable number of parents.'"—(Mr. Evelyn Cecil.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
§ MR. BIRRELLobserved that the hon. Member had quoted from something he wrote years ago. If the hon. Member would take steps that he should occupy in this country an autocratic position with power of issuing a mandamus every one was bound to obey, then he would undertake to deal with this religious question without any assistance or interference from the hon. Member or anybody else in the House. But the measure he was now supporting was a Government measure in which he had a part, but it was a joint operation, and he was not to be debarred by any individual expressions made some years ago, to the general purport and good sense of which, however, he still adhered. The hon. Member did not like "four-fifths." But would the hon. Member I be good enough to say what was "a reasonable number?"
§ MR. EVELYN CECILTo be ascertained in the locality.
§ MR. BIRRELLdid not call that a reasonable suggestion—that what was a reasonable number was to be ascertained by the local authority or by a jury. In his opinion, Parliament must assume some responsibility in this matter. Parliament must determine the conditions under which these facilities were to be granted. The Government, therefore, had chosen a number which would secure that the school, in order to have extended facilities, must be a school of an overwhelmingly denominational character. Hon. Gentlemen opposite, however, thought that wherever there was a child needing denominational instruction, that child ought to be able to get it under a national system of education. That would be a perfectly rational system, 993 but it was not the scheme of this Bill, and it was not the scheme for which the great majority of the people of this country had voted. The hon. Member must recognise that the Government could not bring in a Bill of that description. What they had done at great pains and labour—ill-requited pains and unrecognised labour—was to introduce this Clause 4. That it was not a perfect denominational clause, he quite agreed. But still, as Dr. Johnson said about the dancing dogs—"It is not a wonder that the dog dances well—the wonder is that it dances at all!" And so with regard to this clause—the wonder was that it should be where it was at all. It was a highly exceptional clause dealing with a highly exceptional circumstance. The main circumstance was that the school to have these exceptional facilities must be beyond all question a clear denominational school. They could not have nice inquiries or fine discriminations; they had to deal coarsely by putting a large number which should prove beyond any doubt that the school was a denominational one. He was there to defend "four-fifths" simply on those grounds. There must be an overwhelming majority if the school was to continue on its way as a denominational school. The Government had constructed the clause for the benefit of schools whose character was overwhelming and not likely to change; and they must adhere to it.
§ MR. BUTCHER (Cambridge University)said whatever might be said of this fraction, one thing was clear, and that was that the privileges acquired under it were of a most precarious character. The migration of a few families to another quarter of the town would destroy the proportion, all the more because four-fifths of the children were a more unstable quantity than four-fifths of the parents. Again, an influx of undenominational children into a denominational school would have a similar effect. Even a single hostile individual who desired to upset the arrangement could easily disturb the balance by bringing in a batch of children from outside. Then there was the fact that under the Bill the permission could be withdrawn at six months' notice. So that the system was set up upon the shifting basis of a 994 constantly varying fraction, which might be four-fifths to-day and two-thirds tomorrow. He did not believe that the desired end could be attained by any rigid fraction. This four-fifths fraction opened up a new chapter in the history of religious toleration and liberty. It marked the arithmetical point at which parental wishes might assert themselves, and rights of conscience might have a voice. Why should the Government express the principle of toleration in the form of this unheard of fraction? The reason was only too apparent. The arithmetical expression was an evasive expression; it put in the language of arithmetic with seeming mathematical coldness and impartiality what the Government dared not say in plain English. What they meant was that the Church of England was not to participate in the religious liberty that was extended to other denominations; that whereas 75 per cent, of the Church of England schools were to be excluded, the Roman Catholic schools, to the extent of 75 per cent. and more, were to be included. He did not wish to rob the Roman Catholics of a single school which was now in their possession. Those schools had been built by them out of hard-won earnings and from a devoted piety, and they ought every one of them to remain without question. All he said was, let the Church of England have the equality and similar privilege to that which was given to other denominations. He did not think that Irish Members asked for exclusive privileges. He heard the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool recently insist on the claim of all creeds for religious equality. The quarrel of English Churchmen was not with the Members on the Irish Benches, with whom they were in hearty sympathy; their quarrel was with the Government, who resorted to a fraction which was not only evasive, but cowardly, and designed to strike a blow at the Church of England. From another point of view, this fraction inflicted peculiar hardship on the Established Church. The Church had set herself a great national task, before any other denomination had taken up the work of education. She had sought to educate not only her own children, but all others who wished to 995 receive her instruction. If she had not attempted to discharge this national duty, and had not thrown wide her doors to thousands of children of other denominations who wished to partake of that education; if, on the contrary, she had taken a sectarian view of her position, and given an instruction rigidly and exclusively denominational, then she would have come within the privileges of the four-fifths clause. The fact that the Church required a smaller fraction was proof that she had been ministering to the needs of different denominations. The magnitude of her work was the measure of her offence. She was penalised for her comprehensiveness, and put under disabilities because, being the Church of the nation, she had attempted to do a national work.
One more point. The limit of "four-fifths" in this clause taken in connection with the limit of the "urban area" meant the break up of one great portion of the organised religious life of England. He knew that hon. Gentleman opposite were not inclined to look upon the voluntary schools in this light. They thought of them, absurd as was the idea, as turning out little seminaries for expert theologians. But there was another side of these voluntary schools which ought not to be ignored. The children there learnt that they belonged to a religious community, that they were members of a body; and in later years surely it was no small thing when one thought of their lonely and unsheltered lives in the great industrial centres, of their isolation and temptations, that they should be able to feel that they were members of a spiritual family, and that they had behind them a great background of fellowship and organic life, and all those mutual aids which to young people were the greatest possible help towards right living. Hon. Gentlemen opposite said, "Children cooped up in denominational pens—how can they become good citizens"? To him the argument was quite the opposite To train the sense of corporate life was in itself a great education in citizenship, and on the whole those who were most loyal to their own denomination proved also most true in their allegiance to the community. From the point of view of the State and of its moral welfare, he maintained that they could not afford to loosen the ties that 996 bound people to the religious organisations to which they belonged, and the words now under discussion did tend to loosen and to dissolve that vital bond.
§ MR. LANE-FOX (Yorkshire, W.R., Barkston Ash)said he could tell the Minister for Education what a reasonable number was. It seemed to him that one-half was distinctly a reasonable number. The limit in the Bill allowed considerable advantages to Roman Catholics, but it also inflicted considerable disadvantages on the Church of England. Grievances which were peculiar to the Church of England were not receiving the same attention from the Government that other grievances were, and he asserted that their grievances would not be attended to unless they pointed out that Roman Catholics had serious grievances in this matter too. He thought the limitation distinctly excluded from the operation of the clause a great majority of the schools of the Church of England. Many Members had hoped that under this clause they would see the redemption of the pledges made by Ministers up and down the country, but every Amendment was being rejected and every shred of hope taken from them. They were left in the position, if this limitation were passed, that a large number of their schools had only obtained the so-called miserable advantages under Clause 3. They were placed under a serious disadvantage. They could not in view of the great majority against them protest effectively in this House. They must leave it to another place, if they thought fit, to remodel this clause until the elements of justice appeared in it. The arbitrary limitation was absolutely unjustified, and he hoped it would suffer the fate it deserved, at the hands either of this or of some other Parliament.
MR. POWER (Waterford, E.)could not under stand why the Government was so wedded to this clause. According to the hon. and learned Member for South Longford, it would ruin no less than 235 of the Catholic schools as they at present existed. He at first thought that that was rather an exaggeration, and he had taken the trouble to visit three schools in the neighbourhood in which he lodged. 997 Those three visits more than confirmed the accuracy of his hon. and learned friend's statement. The first school was in Kensington Square, kept by Catholic nuns. It was a small school with only 114 children on the roll, and out of that number there were twenty - eight Protestants. Therefore, although the school had been built with Catholic money for the education of Catholic children, it would cease to be a Catholic school, because if it came to a question of voting, a number of the parents of the children would decline to vote. Consequently there would not be the majority necessary to enable the school to be continued as at present. The second case he inquired into was at Fulham. He had also visited the schools connected with the Oratory Church. He took those schools because they were the nearest to him. They were very large schools built at a cost of £20,000. In the girls' school there were 165 girls, and twenty-two of them were not Catholics; whilst there were 180 in the infants' school, forty-five of them not being Catholics. That gave sixty-seven of these children as non-Catholic, and applying the four-fifths rule these big schools, built largely by the pence of the poor, would cease to be Catholic schools, and they would be giving a kind of education there which was never intended by the founders. The first duty of the State was to see that a proper education was given to all classes of the community, and if the State failed in that respect it failed in regard to one of its most important functions. They believed in a Catholic atmosphere in the schools because they believed that it had a good influence on the minds of the young. He maintained that unless the proposed fraction was altered, they would be doing a great injury to the poorest of the poor. The people of this country never did understand Catholic tenets and principles, but Catholics were proud of the sacrifices made in the past by the poor people who had gone before them. They hoped to be able to keep the schools created by those who had been expelled from their own country, and every effort would be used to secure the perpetuation of schools founded by the self-sacrifice of 998 their own countrymen. Hence they would oppose this four-fifths clause.
§ LORD MORPETHsaid they had been told that this was an honest Bill. Although many hon. Members on the Ministerial side had declared that they were anxious to give genuine facilities to those who desired definite religious teaching, nevertheless many barriers were interposed between that promise and its realisation. So many difficulties had been placed in the way that in many cases it would be impossible to obtain such teaching. Four-fifths was an exceedingly high proportion. The Minister for Education had asked what was a reasonable proportion. At any rate he should say that it ought to be less than four-fifths, but he was in favour of leaving the matter to the local authority to determine. He was aware that some hon. Members regarded local authorities with a certain amount of suspicion, but his experience of them was that they were tar more tolerant than the majority on the Ministerial side of the House. There was hardly a local authority in the country that would refuse to give the facilities permitted by this Bill, and even more than was proposed by the Government. The local authority upon which he had the honour of serving had through the County Council Committee asked that the limitations in Clause 4 should be struck out. He felt sure that if the question was left to the local authorities they would give a far more liberal-minded interpretation than the Government had done. Why not leave it to the local authority to determine whether there was a genuine demand to continue the denominational nature of the school? According to the law as it stood it had not in the past been in the power of denominational schools to refuse to admit the children of other denominations, and for that reason there were in the Catholic and Anglican schools of Great Britain a good many children who did not belong to those particular churches. Would it not be a great hardship upon those churches, which had been doing the work of the State and educating the children of all classes who were sent to them, if they were penalised and told under 999 this Bill that they were not to give definite religious teaching in these schools? All those who had had any experience of administering education before the year 1902 knew that although the children might be sent to any school in which places were vacant, yet in Roman Catholic schools those places were not always considered available, and school boards were allowed to build extra schools, although at the time there were places available in the Catholic schools. With regard to the Church of England schools no such considerations held good, and they had a large number of children who did not belong to that church at all. He thought that fact alone ought to induce the Government to give a generous recognition of these services, and not to insist upon placing the proportion so high as four-fifths. Accordingly, he was in favour of leaving to the local authorities the definition of "a reasonable number," feeling assured that it would be fixed by them at less than four-fifths.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDhoped the Government would yield so far at least as to substitute "three-fourths" for "four-fifths." He had the fullest confidence in the desire of the Minister for Education to do what was reasonable and fair, but surely it was not fair or reasonable to say that unless four-fifths of the children attending a denominational school were of its particular denomination the religious character of the school should be entirely changed? He thought the President of the Board of Education ought to make some Amendment which would safeguard these schools against an undoubted injustice. He did not see anything particularly magical in the fraction four-fifths. If the vote did not show four-fifths, would the Solicitor-General say that it was a fair and reasonable thing that the whole character of the school should be altered, end that the opinion of the great majority of parents should be ignored? He firmly believed that it was the intention of the President of the Board of Education to deal perfectly frankly and fairly by the denominational schools in this matter, and to keep them denominational if the great majority of the parents wished it. His point was that it 1000 would be a monstrous thing in regard to a Catholic school, where there were nearly four-fifths who desired that extended facilities should be given, that the facilities should be refused simply because there were five or six votes less than the required number. The words "a reasonable number of parents" in the Amendment might not be the proper words to use. They were very vague, and might give rise to a great deal of trouble, but he appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to take some step in order that Catholic schools which were very nearly up to the four-fifths should not be penalised because of the absence of a voter here and there, and because the schools had so recommended themselves that the children of parents belonging to other denominations were sent to them. There were many such schools, conducted by nuns and under the supervision of priests, where there were numbers of Protestant children, on the clear and honourable understanding that nothing should be done to change their religion—an understanding always most scrupulously carried out. He asked the Minister for Education to see whether it was not possible to insert some Amendment which would prevent this hard-and fast provision from excluding from extended facilities schools which were serving their purpose properly, not only in the eyes of Catholics, but in the eyes of a considerable number of Protestants as well. Reference had been made to what mysterious people in "another place" were going to do to this Bill. He dissociated himself entirely from hon. Gentlemen above the gangway on the Opposition side who were always threatening the Government in that way. It was an intolerable thing that the representatives of the people should be threatened and badgered as to what was going to be done in another place. He did not like it at all, but if a reasonable thing was not done here, undoubtedly it would be done in another place. He appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to safeguard these schools against an undoubted injustice, and do nothing to bolster up another place.
§ MR. BIRRELLassured the hon. Gentleman that he most firmly believed that the Protestant parents who sent their children for well-defined comprehensible 1001 reasons to Roman Catholic schools because of their praiseworthy excellence would be found among those who would vote for those schools continuing to be conducted as before. A child of his own attended for many years a Roman Catholic school; he received the utmost kindness there; and he looked back upon the time he spent there, and always would do, as among the happiest periods of his life. He was now in New Zealand, and, as far as he could discover, he was to-day the strongest of Protestants. If while his child was there he himself could have been called upon to exercise the referendum, he should certainly have expressed his opinion at the ballot box that the school should continue as it was, unaltered in any respect. Therefore, he could not agree that Protestant parents would abstain from expressing their opinion in the like sense as opportunity should arise. He agreed that it would be a great miscarriage of justice if a school was deprived of facilities under this clause by reason of the fact that a number of children who belonged to another denomination went to it. As to the four-fifths, he could not in any way go back upon what he had said. The greatest possible pressure had been put upon him by persons whose views he did not share, who had pointed out that the number of Anglican schools that would be benefited under this provision was very large. He did not mind how large it was. The number of actual schools that would fall within the purview of this clause was much more numerous in the case of the Church of England than in that of the Church of Rome. It was with that object they wanted Clause 4 to operate as widely as possible within the limits which appeared on the Bill as drafted. He could not hold out any hope that the proportion would be reduced.
§ MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN (Birmingham, W.)said he doubted very much whether the hon. Gentleman the Member for Waterford would derive much comfort from the interesting personal experience which had just been related by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education, and which led him to believe that Protestants attending Catholic schools would after this Act was passed go out of their 1002 way to ask that exceptional treatment should be given to those schools. All he could say was that that seemed to indicate to him a great amount of religious liberality and toleration, but not any very strenuous Protestantism.
§ MR. BIRRELLWhy not? If any person for whom I am responsible is sent to a Catholic school, I do not know that that interferes with my position.
§ MR. J. CHAMBERLAINsaid he dared say not. He always understood that the object of establishing a denominational and especially a Church school was to promote in the minds of the children an attachment to the denominational religion for which the school had been created. When the right hon. Gentleman spoke as to his readiness to accept for his own children Roman Catholic teaching, would he in the event of this Bill being passed petition that the Roman Catholic teaching should be continued in the school? He confessed he did not know on what authority the right hon. Gentleman could imagine that there would be no tampering with the Protestant faith of his son in a Catholic school. On the contrary he should have thought that the mere atmosphere of the school would have tended to sap the Protestant faith of his son.
§ MR. BIRRELLIt did not have that result on my son.
§ MR. J. CHAMBERLAINsaid he should doubt whether that son was, as they were told, a very strong Protestant.
§ MR. BIRRELLA good Protestant.
§ MR. J. CHAMBERLAINsaid he doubted very much whether the son would support the policy which was now supported by his father. But this seemed to him to be rather humorous than serious.
§ MR. BIRRELLThere is nothing humorous about it.
§ MR. J. CHAMBERLAINsaid it did not afford to his mind an assurance that the people who attended these denominational schools and did not agree with the denominational teaching in them would 1003 go out of their way to ask that the denominational teaching should be continued. He did not think that any such argument as that could be sustained even if supported by the personal experience of the right hon. Gentleman. At the same time let him say to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Waterford that they on the Opposition benches entirely understood his position. He had made it perfectly clear that the Irish Party did not care for the Anglican case, but for their own case, which they were specially called upon to defend.
§ MR. J. CHAMBERLAINasked what had that got to do with it? He was puzzled to know in what possible way the hon. Gentleman made that observation relevant to the argument.
§ MR. BYLESI asked for information as to in what way you differentiate what you call "our case" from the case of the Roman Catholics.
§ MR. J. CHAMBERLAINsaid he perfectly understood that the hon. Gentleman and the Irish Nationalist Party differentiated the cases, and that while they argued for their own position they did not carry the argument so far as to include the case of those who desired Protestant denominational teaching. They on that side of the House were more liberal, because all they asked for themselves they were ready to concede to Roman Catholics and other denominations.
§ MR. DILLONClause 3 is of no use to us. [Cries of "Oh."]
§ MR. J. CHAMBERLAINsaid that what he was arguing for now was the inclusion in Clause 4 of all schools which were proved to be denominational, whether Catholic or Anglican. What the Opposition asked for was justice and full reciprocity on the part of the Irish Members. The great importance of this discussion was the light it showed on the genesis of the Bill. For himself, speaking as a Unitarian, he said that he was not one of those who had ever attached the great importance so many of his 1004 friends did to denominational teaching. He had said in public and in this House that he had never taken exception to the ordinary teaching given under the Cowper-Temple clause. He must say that with such experience as he had had of the working classes of the country he thought the great bulk of them were not so greatly interested as many people imagined in what was called sectarian teaching. That was not a new statement on his part. But if that experience of his was accepted to that extent perhaps his experience would be accepted a little further. There was one thing on which they might always appeal to the democracy of this country, and that was the eternal principles of common justice. He opposed this Bill because he thought that it was unjust, and there was no clause of it which was more distinctively unjust than Clause 4; and no part of the clause was more unjust than the particular limitation of the four-fifths provision which had been ingeniously introduced in order to include the Catholic and exclude the Anglican schools. Did hon. Members think that when, sooner or later, this matter was again carried to the country—as it would be—they could persuade those who cared nothing whatever about denominations that it was a just arrangement which allowed to Catholic schools in the proportion of three-fourths certain privileges which were withheld from Anglican Protestant schools? If they did, they would find themselves very much mistaken. But there was another injustice. The reason the Government were making for the exceptions to Clause 4 was that there were a number of parents who desired denominational teaching—Catholic or Anglican. How could they justly say that because a man sent his children to a school where 80 per cent, were of one denomination the children should have the religious instruction the parents desired, but that it should be denied if only 79 per cent, were of that one denomination? He was sure that the men in the street, who, after all, dictated the policy of the country, would not support such an injustice. They would say that there must be some intention quite different from that which was 1005 avowedly on the face of those proceedings. The hon. Member for Cambridge University had put with great force the peculiar hardship of some denominational schools that were to be punished because of their liberalism and generosity to others outside those for whose special benefit the schools had been built. He would give an illustration of which he personally knew the facts. A large denominational school had recently been built at great expense entirely for denominational purposes— Church of England—and in that school one-third of the pupils were Nonconformists. Therefore that school would not come within the four-fifths provision, although there were board schools, Wesleyan schools, and Roman Catholic schools all round. The Nonconformist pupils only went to the Church of England school because the secular education was better there than in the others. He was not blaming them in the least, but under this clause the fact that those pupils chose to go to this denominational school would deprive it of the benefits of Clause 4. That was unjust. Supposing the managers of the school, knowing what would happen, were to say before the Bill passed that they would no longer accept the Nonconformist children in the Church school? What would be the result? Some of the parents would recognise the justice of that decision and would send their children to the public elementary or the Nonconformist school. Others might appeal to the Board of Education and claim that their children should be received in schools in which religious instruction was given of which they disapproved. Could the Board of Education in justice force these children back into the Church schools, and six months afterwards allow the parents of these children to vote against the continuance of the instruction for which the school was established? The proposition in the Bill was absolutely indefensible. No such policy could possibly afford a permanent settlement. He did not threaten hon. Members with what might happen elsewhere, but sooner or later the Government would have to go to the people who, they said, had given them their mandate. He should like very much to have that 1006 opportunity. Dr. Clifford, whose personal acquaintance he did not enjoy, but who appeared to speak of him generally by his Christian name, said at a public meeting the other day, "They all knew what Joey wanted." He was not certain that Dr. Clifford knew all that he wanted, but he was quite right if he thought he wanted a general election on this point as soon as possible. He almost challenged hon. Members to agree with him that the result of such an election would not constitute anything like unanimous approval of a policy which on the face of it was unjust, unreasonable, unfair, and could not be defended.
§ MR. GIBBS (Bristol, W.)said the provisions of the Bill were very drastic, and it seemed to him that under them these schools would be diverted from the main object for which they were built. Those who were responsible for them would be denied the just right to give that religious teaching to which those attending the schools had always been accustomed. A great deal had been said about the safeguards which were going to be given to the voluntary schools under this clause, but when they came to be considered they appeared to him to be absolutely illusory. It seemed to him that the proportion of four-fifths could apply only to schools where the children in attendance were all of one denomination. In other cases the minority would be able to prevent any denominational teaching at all being given. He could very well imagine how, if this Bill became law, there would be no more denominational teaching. The right hon. Gentleman and his supporters denied that the Bill was an attack upon the Church of England. He could only say that he wished that they on the Opposition side of the House could avoid believing that it was such an attack. But what other conclusion could they come to if this proportion of four-fifths was persisted in? The Church of England had many schools, and in numbers of them there were children of all denominations, but unless four-fifths of the parents of the children desired it denominational teaching could not be given. He felt sure that this provision would exclude denominational teaching from hundreds if not thousands of Church 1007 schools. Surely where the parents of half the scholars desired to have denominational religious instruction it should be given as before. Eighty per cent, was too large a percentage, and if it was persisted in in one school the children there would get denominational teaching, while in another of a precisely similar character they would not obtain it, although the children of the Anglican denomination constituted the great majority of the children attending it. He thought the clause was built upon a very shifting foundation. There were cases, moreover, in which, although the schools might obtain the privilege
§ at first, shortly afterwards the four-fifths might be reduced to three-fourths, and they would lose the right of giving denominational religious teaching. The percentage was so great that it appeared to him to be altogether unreasonable, and he appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to insert the fraction of one-half, or if he could not do that, something more reasonable than four-fifths.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 312; Noes, 142. (Division List No. 158.)
1011| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Cameron, Robert | Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter |
| Adkins, W. Ryland | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Fuller, John Michael F. |
| Agnew, George William | Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight | Fullerton, Hugh |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Cawley Frederick | Gibb, James (Harrow) |
| Alden, Percy | Chance, Frederick William | Gill, A. H. |
| Allen, A.Acland(Christchurch) | Channing, Francis Allston | Gladstone, Rt Hn. HerbertJohn |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Cheetham, John Frederick | Glendinning, R. G. |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Glover, Thomas |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Churchill, Winston Spencer | Goddard, Daniel Ford |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Clarke, C. Goddard | Grant, Corrie |
| Astbury, John Meir | Cleland, J. W. | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Clough, W. | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Coats, SirT.Glen(Renfrew, W.) | Gulland, John W. |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. |
| Barlow, John Emmott(Somerset | Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Corbett, CH. (Sussex,E. Grinst'd | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) |
| Barnard, E. B. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) |
| Barnes, G. N. | Cory, Clifford John | Hart-Davies, T. |
| Beale, W. P. | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) |
| Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) | Cowan, W. H. | Harwood, George |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Cremer, William Randal | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) |
| Benn, John Williams(Devonp'rt | Crombie, John William | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |
| Benn,W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo.) | Crosfield, A. H. | Haworth, Arthur A. |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Crossley, William J. | Hazel, Dr. A. E. |
| Bertram, Julius | Davies, David(Montgomery Co. | Hedges, A. Paget |
| Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford) | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Helme, Norval Watson |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Billson, Alfred | Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon Augustine | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Henry, Charles S. |
| Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire) | Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) |
| Bolton, T. D. (Derbysbire,N. E. | Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N | Higham, John Sharp |
| Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Dobson, Thomas W. | Hobart, Sir Robert |
| Brace, William | Dodd, W. H. | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. |
| Bramsdon, T. A. | Duckworth, James | Hodge, John |
| Branch, James | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Holden, E. Hopkinson |
| Brigg, John | Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Hooper, A. G. |
| Brocklehurst, W. D. | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) |
| Brooke, Stopford | Dunne, Major E.Martin(Walsall | Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset,N. |
| Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs.,Leigh) | Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) | Horniman, Emslie John |
| Bryce, Rt.Hn.James (Aberdeen | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Bryce, J.A.(Inverness Burghs) | Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward | Hudson, Walter |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Evans, Samuel T. | Hutton, Alfred Eddison |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Eve, Harry Trelawney | Hyde, Clarendon |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Everett, R. Lacey | Illingworth, Percy H. |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Faber, G. H. (Boston) | Jackson, R. S. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas. | Fenwick, Charles | Jacoby, James Alfred |
| Byles, William Pollard | Ferens, T. R. | Jardine, Sir J. |
| Cairns, Thomas | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | Johnson, John (Gateshead) |
| Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | Napier, T. B. | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea | Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Jones, William(Carnarvonshire | Nicholls, George | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Jowett, F. W. | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) |
| Kekewich, Sir George | Nuttall, Harry | Stuart, James (Sunderland) |
| Kelley, George D. | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Summerbell, T. |
| King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Parker, James (Halifax) | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Kitson, Sir James | Paul, Herbert | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Laidlaw, Robert | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe) |
| Lambert, George | Pearson, W.H.M.(Suffolk,Eye) | Thomas, Abel(Carmarthen, E.) |
| Lamont, Norman | Perks, Robert William | Thomas, SirA.(Glamorgan, E.) |
| Lawson, Sir Wilfrid | Philipps, Col.Ivor(S'thampton) | Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset E |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Philipps, J. Wynford(Permbroke | Tomkinson, James |
| Lea, HughCecil(St. Pancras, E.) | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Torrance, A. M. |
| Leese, SirJosephF(Accrington) | Price, C.E.(Edinb'gh,Central) | Toulmin, George |
| Lehmann, R. C. | Price, RobertJohn(Norfolk,E.) | Verney, F. W. |
| Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich) | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) | Vivian, Henry |
| Lever, W.H.(Cheshire, Wirral) | Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford,E.) | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) |
| Levy, Maurice | Radford, G. H. | Walsh, Stephen |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Raphael, Herbert H. | Walton, SirJohnL.(Leeds,S.) |
| Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | Ward, John(Stokeupon Trent) |
| Lough, Thomas | Renton, Major Leslie | Ward, W.Dudley(Southampton |
| Lupton, Arnold | Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th | Wardle, George J. |
| Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n) | Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan) |
| Lynch, H. B. | Richardson, A. | Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney) |
| Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Rickett, J. Compton | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Watt, H. Anderson |
| Mackarness, Frederic G | Robertson, Rt.Hn.E.(Dundee) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Robertson, Sir G.Scott(Bradf'rd | White, George (Norfolk) |
| M'Arthur, William | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| M'Callum, John M. | Robson, Sir William Snowdon | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| M'Crae, George | Rose, Charles Day | Whitehead, Rowland |
| M'Kenna, Reginald | Rowlands, J. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Runciman, Walter | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| M'Micking, Major G. | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Manfield, Harry (Northants) | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Mansfield, H.Rendall(Lincoln) | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Marks, G.Croydon(Launceston) | Schwann, Chas.E.(Manchester) | Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarth'n |
| Marnham, F. J. | Sears, J. E. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Seaverns, J. H. | Williamson, A. |
| Massie, J. | Seddon, J. | Wills, Arthur Walters |
| Menzies, Walter | Seely, Major J. B. | Wilson, HenryJ.(York, W.R.) |
| Micklem, Nathaniel | Shackleton, David James | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Molteno, Percy Alport | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras,S.) |
| Mond, A. | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Money, L. G. Chiozza | Silcock, Thomas Ball | Winfrey, R. |
| Montagu, E. S. | Simon, John Allsebrook | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Sloan, Thomas Henry | Woodhouse, SirJT(Huddersf'd |
| Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen) | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Morley, Rt. Hon. John | Snowden, P. | |
| Morrell, Philip | Soares, Ernest J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Morse, L. L. | Spicer, Albert | Whiteley and Mr. J. A. |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Stanger, H. Y. | Pease. |
| Murray, James | Stanley, Hn.A.Lyulph(Chesh.) | |
| Myer, Horatio | Steadman, W. C. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork,N.E.) | Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Carlile, E. Hildred |
| Ambrose, Robert | Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Cecil, Evelyn (Ashton Manor) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Bignold, Sir Arthur | Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Blake, Edward | Cecil, Lord R.(Marylebone, E.) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Boland, John | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon.J.(Birm. |
| Ashley, W. W. | Bowles, G. Stewart | Clancy, John Joseph |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hn. Sir H. | Boyle, Sir Edward | Coates, E.Feetham(Lewisham) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Bridgeman, W. Clive | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E. |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Burdett-Coutts, W. | Cogan, Denis J. |
| Balfour, RtHn.A.J.(CityLond.) | Burke, E. Haviland- | Condon, Thomas Joseph |
| Baring, Hon. Guy(Winchester) | Butcher, Samuel Henry | Courthope, G. Loyd |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. | Cox, Harold |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N |
| Crean, Eugene | Keswick, William | O'Malley, William |
| Cross, Alexander | Kilbride, Denis | O'Mara, James |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Delany, William | Lane-Fox, G. R. | O'Shee, James John |
| Devlin Charles Ramsay(Galway | Lee, ArthurH. (Hants., Fareham | Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington |
| Dillon, John | Long, Col.Charles W.(Evesham) | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Dixon, Sir Daniel | Lundon, W. | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Dolan, Charles Joseph | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Rawlinson, John Frederick P. |
| Donelan, Captain A. | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Reddy, M. |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Du Cros, Harvey | MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal,E.) | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Duffy, William J. | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Roche, Augustine (Cork) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | M'Kean, John | Roche, John (Galway, East) |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | M'Killop, W. | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Magnus, Sir Philip | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Fell, Arthur | Meagher, Michael | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Meehan, Patrick A. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Starkey, John R. |
| Forster, Henry William | Mooney, J. J. | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) | Murnaghan, George | Sullivan, Donal |
| Ginnell, L. | Murphy, John | Talbot, Rt. Hn.J G.(Oxf'd Univ. |
| Haddock, George R. | Nicholson, Wm.G.(Petersfield) | Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Halpin, J. | Nield, Herbert | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Hammond, John | Nolan, Joseph | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Harrington, Timothy | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. | O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Hay, Hon. Claude George | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Hayden, John Patrick | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Young, Samuel |
| Hazleton, Richard | O'Doherty, Philip | |
| Helmsley, Viscount | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir |
| Hogan, Michael | O'Dowd, John | Alexander Acland-Hood and |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Hare, Patrick | Viscount Valentia. |
| Kennaway, Rt. Hn.Sir JohnH. | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
§ SIR THOMAS ESMONDE (Wexford, N.)in moving to insert after the word "schools," in line 8, the words "whose parents voted in the ballot." said that his object was to remove the difficulty which arose previously when the right hon. Gentleman explained the principle of the ballot and the method by which the decision should be arrived at. The right hon. Gentleman's suggestion was that they should reverse the usual practice in all matters of election and allow the question to be decided by those who did not vote. When a question was to be decided by ballot it seemed to him a contradiction in terms to say that the decision should be arrived at by those who took no part in it. The proposals of the clause meant that the status of the schools would be altered. That being so, he thought that those who desired to alter their status should have the courage of their convictions and vote for the change. He begged to move.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 3, line 8, after the word 'schools,' to insert the words 'whose parents voted in the ballot'."—(Sir Thomas Esmonde.)
§ Question proposed "That those words be inserted."
§ MR. DILLONsaid the Solicitor-General had just now stated that if a voter did not go to an election he was ignored. That was just the point. If a man did not vote he should not be regarded, and that was the exact purport of the Amendment. When an election took place for this purpose those who did not vote ought to be treated as non-existent, and the only parents they had a right to consider when they adopted the method of the ballot were those who voted. The Amendment was the logical consequence of the ballot. As the clause originally stood there was provided a perfectly elastic method of inquiry which might be presumed to be an exhaustive inquiry as to the views of the parents. There was nothing in the clause to prevent the local authority taking a week or a fortnight to discover the views of the parents or to give time to those who were absent or sick to have their views ascertained. But when they introduced a ballot which must take place between certain specified hours and in a 1013 certain specified place they altered the whole condition of the problem and increased against those who demanded facilities the necessary proportion, because in order to produce at the ballot a proportion of four-fifths it would be necessary to have five-sixths or seven-eighths of the voters to secure the four-fifths if the whole of the parents were to be taken into account. He gathered from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that it was the intention of the Government to count as against the granting of facilities everybody who did not vote. He himself thought the proportion of those who would be unable to vote at a given time would be exceedingly large. Workmen were not masters of their own time. A man engaged in the building trade might be at the other end of the country on a job. He could not see that the right hon. Gentleman had advanced a single argument in favour of his project of counting all those who did not vote as against these facilities. Would it not be more just and more generous to count them as in favour of the facilities. That would, he thought, be far more reasonable, because those who objected to them would be sure to come up and record their objection. Therefore, if those who did not vote were to be counted at all, they should be counted as being in favour of the clause. That, however, was not the Amendment before the Committee. The Amendment of his hon. friend imported common sense into this question and only said that if resort was made to the ballot the question should be governed by the ordinary laws of the ballot.
§ MR. BIRRELLsaid that the effect of this Amendment had been discussed some time ago, and another Amendment was to be moved on sub-section (b). He was sorry that there was this difference of opinion. He had never assumed that it would arise, because he thought that the point was perfectly plain. The Committee was not dealing with an ordinary election, but with a clause which imposed on certain persons, if they were anxious to obtain special facilities, the duty of accurately expressing their desire that these special facilities should be granted. He now saw that hon. 1014 Members opposite took another view. The essence of the matter was that these additional facilities should be obtained by an active expression of a desire on the part of the parents, and, therefore, it was not possible for the Government to accede to the Amendment. He agreed that every precaution must be taken to see that the wishes of the parents were expressed and that it would be a monstrous thing that, because a man was absent from home, the mother, who was looking after the children, should not have the right of representing him in the ballot. It was intended that the mother should have this right, and he hoped that there would be no difficulty about that point. The only other point of hardship was that a certain number of parents might have been prevented from expressing their opinions, and that it would be wrong to assume that such parents insisted upon having accommodation for their children elsewhere. Until he saw the Amendment that was to be moved he would content himself by saying that words could be inserted to make it plain that at the public inquiry any parent who did not vote in the ballot would have an opportunity to be represented and to indicate that he had no desire for accommodation for his child. The authority in charge of the public inquiry would be able to deal with the actual facts of the case, and would be able to ascertain what public accommodation was needed. But he adhered to the view he had always expressed, that there was an obligation imposed on the parents to make known their desires, and they could not assume in that respect that silence gave consent.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNOR (Liverpool, Scotland)said the President of the Board of Education expected from human nature what had never occurred in the whole history of mankind. Where-ever voting took place and under whatever circumstances it took place there would always be a large percentage of voters who would not trouble to record their opinions. He took the case of the electoral contests in the north of Ireland. He doubted whether there was any place in the world where there was such a fanatical desire on the part of men to record their votes Let them take West Belfast, for instance, which was 1015 one of the great electoral battle grounds on the north of Ireland. Had 100 per cent, of the electors ever recorded their votes there? He believed the record on one occasion was 96 per cent, and everybody thought that a perfect marvel. Now the right hon. Gentleman proposed that not 90 or 95 per cent, but 100 per cent, of the people must record their votes on this question on one side. The minority was more likely to be indifferent than active. The Minister for Education was aware that the number of Protestant children in the Catholic schools was large. When in Wales the other day, in the very heart of the Nonconformist country, he was told there was a Catholic school which had many Protestant children attending it. Therefore they were face to face with this extraordinary situation, that because a Catholic school rightly or wrongly attracted a large number of Protestant children the Catholic parents must vote 100 per cent, while the Protestant parents were not called upon to vote. He thought the proposition had only to be stated in order to show its absurdity. It was perfectly reasonable that the desire for additional facilities should be genuine and active, but between that and the statement that every single one in favour of these additional facilities must vote and would vote was the gap between human nature according to the dreams of the romancer and human nature in reality. A French statesman once said that the majority of men were either sluggards, cowards, or rogues. He would not accept the proposition, but he thought inactivity and apathy were very strong attributes of human nature. The Protestant parents were more likely not to vote than to vote. The Minister for Education seemed rather to admire the Protestant parent who sent his child to a Roman Catholic school, but there were two points of view in regard to that. He should certainly not advise the Catholic parent who had the opportunity of sending his child to a Catholic school to send it to a Protestant school. That would show an ignoble view of the highest considerations of religion. Therefore, so far as this Protestant minority was concerned, they began with a number of people who were indifferent 1016 in the matter of religious feeling, and that being so, the probability was in favour of their not voting and the more difficult it would make the case for the Catholics. No man felt more strongly than he did the extraordinary spirit of sacrifice Catholics in this country had made for the erection of their schools, and they would make every effort to retain them. But to say that 100 per cent. would vote was too much. The proposal of his hon. friend was a fair compromise. Let the test be the number of parents who actually voted.
§ LORD BALCARRES (Lancashire, Chorley)said the Opposition were ready to support the Amendment which had just been placed before the Committee. He really thought that the position taken up by the President of the Board of Education was quite untenable. They were not dealing with an ordinary election. In this case if any person failed to vote, for whatever reason, whether apathy, illness, or absence, that fact would militate against facilities being granted. They could not but remember that in the old days of the School Board elections the average poll was 25 per cent. In 1902, when it was proposed to substitute another authority for the school boards, it was said that the reason why the large balance of the electors did not record their votes was that they were satisfied, and that they did not think it necessary to record their votes. He did not think the parents of other denominations who sent their children to Catholic or Church of England schools would care to state in writing whether they approved of the Roman Catholic or the Church of England creeds or vice versa. He felt sure that those parents would not desire to state on paper whether they approved of those doctrines or not.
§ MR. BIRRELLThere is no question of dogma in it at all. The questions put to the parents will not involve in any form religious beliefs.
§ LORD BALCARRESsaid he was glad to have that assurance. This provision required not merely an 80 per cent. majority of those actually voting, but 1017 substantially a unanimous vote of everybody concerned before the facilities could be obtained, and that was really a very great hardship on those who wished to maintain denominational teaching. The President of the Board of Education had stated, "We all desire that these facilities, if they are facilities at all, shall be real and not a sham." He felt that the limitations were so serious and onerous that the facilities offered under such conditions really would be of very small avail, if not entirely useless.
§ MR. PERKS (Lincolnshire, Louth)said he did not think that the Catholic Church need feel any grave anxiety on account of this particular provision in rural districts. The district which he represented had in it five Catholic schools and four of them were small village schools which would not be affected. The only urban district which would be affected had a Catholic school with only thirty - four children. The singular thing was that the four Catholic schools in the four villages which would be affected by Clause 3 had each a larger number of Catholic children than the school in the urban district which would come under the purview of this clause. So that in regard to this clause which was intended to benefit the Catholic Church the practical effect would be that four of the schools would get no benefit at all, and the urban district school with thirty-four children in attendance would alone benefit. He did not, however, think it would be any use giving the protection of the ballot, and then encouraging a lot of people to make an inquiry to discover how they had voted, or even to discover whether they had voted or not. It would not be in accordance with the principle of the ballot if they allowed a canvass to discover whether they had voted or not in order that their views might be submitted to some local inquiry. The clause was extremely unpopular and would cause no end of trouble.
§ MR. SHACKLETONsaid his only fear was that they were going to have far too much for and against upon this question. It would be a very dangerous thing to have a state of things under which the 1018 electors would have to decide for or against a Church or a Catholic school. All this appeared to him to be absolutely unnecessary. The groundwork of the Bill, as he understood it, was to have ordinary schools under the Cowper-Temple principle. Clause 4 granted an exception, in regard to schools which could prove that they had four-fifths of the parents in favour of facilities. If such a question was put in his district he should not vote at all, because he did not want the exception, and that appeared to him to be a reasonable position to take up. If only those voted under this clause who were required to express an opinion then a majority of 80 per cent, would settle the question. That to him was a common-sense reading of the proposal. The Minister for Education had never said that the other 20 per cent. should be deducted, although he did say that the number who did not vote would be an indication that they did not want those facilities. At the public inquiry, if any parent could show that he was absent for any just reason which prevented him voting, and that he was in favour of this clause being made operative, no public authority would refuse to take his vote. The position would be that he would have to prove that he was unable to register his vote on the occasion when the ballot was taken. Certainly a register should be kept of those who had voted.
§ MR. BURDETT-COUTTS (Westminster)said this was really the right place for an Amendment of this kind to come in. The Minister for Education had suggested postponing it to another part of the clause; but it was necessary to define what was meant by the words "the parents of four-fifths of the children," and the Amendment did that. The hon. Member for the Clitheroe Division seemed to think that it was a very simple matter, but he would put this question to him: Supposing there was a law or regulation which said that a grant of money by a local authority for certain purposes must be sanctioned by a two-thirds majority, would that mean two-thirds of those voting or two-thirds of the whole body?
§ MR. SHACKLETONThat is for and against—a different thing altogether.
§ MR. BURDETT-COUTTSNot at all. The question is: Does it mean two-thirds of the whole local authority, or two-thirds of the members who vote?
§ MR. SHACKLETONTwo-thirds of the people who vote, certainly.
§ MR. BURDETT-COUTTSsaid the hon. Member had answered that it meant two-thirds of the people who voted. That was exactly what the supporters of the Amendment wished to have. Four-fifths of the parents—he used the shortest phrase—should be defined as meaning four-fifths of the parents who voted on the question. That appeared to him to be the only fair way of getting at an accurate estimate which would enable a decision to be come to. He would venture to give the Committee an illustration, drawn from his own experiences. Some years ago before the extinction of the Metropolitan Board of Works, he was engaged in a project of public benefit, which required a large sum of money. This had to be obtained from various public sources, and all the contributions were made dependent on a contribution from a vestry. They carried the proposal by a two-thirds majority of those present, and voting at a meeting of the vestry. Then it was objected that a two-thirds majority, not of those voting, but of the whole vestry, was required to sanction the expenditure. The law left the matter in doubt, and for want of a clear definition of the words "a two-thirds majority" the whole project was hung up for some time. He submitted that no such doubt ought to attach to this clause, and therefore he supported the Amendment. He could not find any logical reason put forward by the Government for treating the ballot in this matter on different lines from the ballot in every other matter in which it was resorted to in this country. As to the remarks of the Solicitor-General, they only led to the conclusion that we ought to amend our electoral system so that in future a candidate should be elected to this House by the majority of the constituency and not by the majority of those who voted.
1020 That was the principle applied in this Bill, and it seemed to him altogether unreasonable, illogical, confusing and likely to leave a legal doubt about the meaning of the words.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid he was certain that, so far as Catholics were concerned, the matter was of such importance that the vote would be exhaustive; but he thought the Amendment of his hon. friend should be supported, not because it was required, but to safeguard cases of what would be undoubted hardship and injustice if a man who was unable to register his vote was to be regarded as opposed to what in reality everyone knew he desired. When he was in Australia last year one of the things most largely commented upon to the detriment of the Labour Party there was that a small percentage of the electors went to the poll, and it was assumed that those who did not take the trouble to vote were against the Labour Party. Nothing could be more untrue. The vast majority of those who did not vote were in sympathy with the Labour Party, and they did not go to the poll because of the distance, or because it was unnecessary to swell the majority, or because they were prevented from voting by the conditions of their ordinary everyday life. The proposition here laid down, that a man who did not vote for a proposition must necessarily be against it, was. a new and dangerous doctrine, and he did not subscribe to it. The Government wanted to put the Catholic elector in this position. If he was prevented from registering his vote at a stated time and place, he was to be regarded as against the suggestion that the religion in which he believed should be taught to his children in the school. It was an unfair suggestion, and one which would work with great injustice in the case of many people. The Government ought to reconsider the matter. What could be fairer than the Amendment which said that the votes which were cast should count, and that the votes which were not cast should not count? He did not know why the Government should lay down the astounding proposition that every man who did not register his vote must 1021 be taken to be against the proposition voted on.
§ MR. GARDNER (Berkshire, Wokingham)said there had been some confusion in the discussion. They were not to have a ballot at all. They were to have a mixture of open voting and ballot voting. Moreover, the parents were not counted, but the children. The vote in the ballot was to be valued according to the number of children a parent had in the school. The result would be very curious. In a school of 200 children, if ten parents, each with four children, did not vote, it would vitiate the whole election, and the rest of the parents could not have what they wanted. The only way out of the difficulty was that those who wished to express their opinion as to what should be done should give their votes personally, and only their votes should be counted.
§ MR. J. WARD (Stoke-on-Trent)said he understood that the whole tendency and meaning of the clause was to give to the parents representing four-fifths of the children attending the school an opportunity of secretly registering their request for special facilities. He did not understand that there was to be a canvass of all the parents to ask them to give a vote for or against, because that would breed bad feeling. It was a subject which ought not to be under discussion in any shape or form. The Amendment was absolutely absurd.
§ MR. H. R. MANSFIELD (Lincolnshire, Spalding)said he could not see what good the ballot was to be if it was only to register "for," and not "against." He himself had seen letters which had been sent to parents by their children from school, saying that it was the desire of the Government to get rid of the Bible out of the schools and asking the parents to vote against any such decision. He believed any amount of influence would be brought to bear on parents not to vote against. That was pernicious, and that was why they wanted the ballot to enable the people, under the secrecy of the ballot, to vote for or against the proposal. If all those who did not vote were to be brought up to a public inquiry to give their reason as to why 1022 they did not vote, then indeed there was an end of the ballot. He hoped the Government would continue the policy of the ballot right through to the end, and that they would not weaken. Some Members of the Ministerial Party viewed with alarm the concessions already made; they had all gone one way, and he hoped that the right of the parents to speak by the ballot, without the eye of the clergyman or the trustees being upon them, would be preserved.
§ SIR W. ROBSONsaid he wanted to say a word on the functions of the inquiry which was to be held after the ballot had taken place. There were two elements to be ascertained—not only the wishes of the parents in regard to facilities, but also the number of parents who desired other accommodation. The number of absentees from the ballot would be smaller than the number usual in an ordinary election, the regulations being drawn up for the purpose of giving every opportunity for the wishes of parents to be ascertained. So much did the noble Lord the Member for Chorley fear that his co-religionists would not come up to the ballot, that he said that if this Amendment were not passed the facilities given to the Church of England schools would be worthless. According, then, to the opinion of the noble Lord, the parents in the Church of England did not care for the facilities.
§ LORD BALCARRESsaid he gave most emphatic repudiation to that remark.
§ SIR W. ROBSONsaid that the noble Lord could not deny that that was the effect of his words. He had got the words down. Let the Committee consider what the effect of them was. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham in speaking of denominational schools made a statement with which they were all familiar, but he doubted very much whether the country and the Committee had weighed its importance. The right hon. Gentleman said that he had no sympathy with those who laid stress upon ordinary facilities. That was an attitude which seemed to be shared by the hon. Member for East Mayo, who said that the ordinary facilities were of no advantage to them, but they must have distinct facilities. 1023 The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, therefore, sympathised with those who said that the ordinary facilities were of no use, because he said that what the denominationalists desired was not merely the teaching of their special creeds, but that there should be something mysterious, unstable and intangible, which formed the atmosphere of the school and which they wished to preserve.
§ LORD R. CECILrose to order and asked if this argument had anything to do with the Amendment.
§ SIR W. ROBSONsaid he would not pursue the matter further if the noble Lord objected, especially as he felt that he was taking up time which might be used by Members of the Opposition. All that he would say was that they had also to consider this "atmosphere" in regard to the minority. They had to consider it not only in regard to the four-fifths, but also in regard to the one-fifth, who, it seemed, were ex hypothesi to be kept in an atmosphere which was dangerous to their creed.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid that those children could go to places where their own creed was taught.
§ SIR W. ROBSONsaid the hon. Member was not quite right, because they were dealing with schools which were part of a national system of education, and many of the children were there under compulsion. Therefore they ought not only to consider the four-fifths, but the one fifth.
§ MR. RAWLINSON (Cambridge University)appealed to the Government to reconsider their attitude to this Amendment and thus avoid doing the injustice to the scheme of the Bill in its original form,
§ and also to the managers of voluntary schools. This scheme of the ballot was introduced at the last moment and it seemed to him that it was indifferently understood by hon. Members and by the Government. His view was that a ballot based on a special register such as that provided by the Government's Amendments on the Paper was absolutely inapplicable in a case of this kind Unless they could obtain the votes, not of 80 per cent of the parents who were interested, many of whom might have removed from the district during the six months before the ballot was taken, but of 80 per cent of the people on this special register, the clause would become inoperative. Great injustice would be done to the denominational schools if the Amendment was not adopted.
§ MR. NIELD (Middlesex, Ealing)said they were still left in a state of considerable doubt and obscurity as to the meaning of the word "parents," in relation to this ballot which was suggested and by this clause intended to be set up. We had had a variety of electoral systems, but we had never had such a machinery as was now suggested by the Government for ascertaining the views of the majority of the parents of the children. It seemed to him that the Government had set up an artificially constructed ballot in order to make the position of the parents who desired the continuance of denominational teaching as difficult as possible. He ventured to say that a system in which the number of persons who had not recorded their votes was to be taken into account had never been known in the electoral system of this country.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 158; Noes, 295. (Division List No. 159.)
1029| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Baldwin, Alfred | Beckett, Hon. Gervase |
| Acland-Hood, Rt.Hn.SirAlex F. | Balfour, Rt HnA.J.(City Lond.) | Bignold, Sir Arthur |
| Ambrose, Robert | Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Blake, Edward |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Banner, John S. Harmood- | Boland, John |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester) | Bowles, G. Stewart |
| Ashley, W. W. | Barnes, G. N. | Boyle, Sir Edward |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hon.SirH. | Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Bridgeman, W. Clive |
| Balcarres, Lord | Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Burdett-Coutts, W. |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Harrington, Timothy | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Dowd, John |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Hazleton, Richard | O'Hare, Patrick |
| Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W. | Hogan, Michael | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Houston, Robert Paterson | O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N. |
| Cecil, Lord R.(Marylebone, E.) | Jowett, F. W. | O'Malley, William |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.(Birm. | Joyce, Michael | O'Mara, James |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kelley, George D. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham) | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | O'Shee, James John |
| Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Paul, Herbert |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W. | Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Keswick, William | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Kilbride, Denis | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Cox, Harold | King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull) | Rawlinson, John Fredrick P. |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Reddy, M. |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Redmond, John E.(Waterford) |
| Crean, Eugene | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Crosfield, A. H. | Lockwood, RtHn. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Cross, Alexander | Lundon, W. | Roche, Augustine (Cork) |
| Delany, William | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Roche, John (Galway, East) |
| Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galway | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Dillon, John | MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down, S.) | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter |
| Dixon, Sir Daniel | MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal,E.) | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Dolan, Charles Joseph | M'Kean, John | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Doughty, Sir George | M'Killop, W. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Magnus, Sir Philip | Seddon, J. |
| Du Cros, Harvey | Masterman, C. F. G. | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Duffy, William J. | Meagher, Michael | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Duncan, Robert(Lanark Govan | Meehan, Patrick A. | Snowden, P. |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Starkey, John R. |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Fell, Arthur | Mooney, J. J. | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Ffrench, Peter | Morpeth, Viscount | Sullivan, Donal |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Murnaghan, George | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Murphy, John | Valentia, Viscount |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Nield, Herbert | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Forster, Henry William | Nolan, Joseph | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Ginnell, L. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Young, Samuel |
| Glover, Thomas | O'Brien, William (Cork) | Younger, George |
| Haddock, George R. | O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W. | |
| Halpin, J. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir |
| Hammond, John | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Thomas Esmonde and Cap- |
| Hardy, Laurence(KentAshford | O'Doherty, Philip | tain Donelan. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Bertram, Julius | Cairns, Thomas |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford) | Cameron, Robert |
| Adkins, W. Ryland | Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. |
| Agnew, George William | Billson, Alfred | Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Cawley, Frederick |
| Alden, Percy | Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire) | Chance, Frederick William |
| Allen, A. Acland(Christchurch) | Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E.) | Channing, Francis Allston |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Cheetham, John Frederick |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Brace, William | Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. |
| Astbury, John Meir | Bramsdon, T. A. | Clarke, C. Goddard |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Branch, James | Cleland, J. W. |
| Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.) | Brigg, John | Clough, W. |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Brocklehurst, W. D. | Coats, SirT.Glen(Renfrew, W.) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Brooke, Stopford | Cobbold, Felix Thornley |
| Barlow John Emmott(Somerset | Brunner, J. F. L.(Lancs., Leigh) | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Bryce, RtHn. James(Aberdeen) | Collins, SirWm. J. (S. Pancras, W. |
| Barnard, E. B. | Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs) | Cooper, G. J. |
| Beale, W. P. | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow) |
| Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Corbett, CH(Sussex, E. Grinst'd |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Burnyeat, J. D. W. | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) |
| Benn, John Williams (Devonp'rt | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |
| Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo. | Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles | Cory, Clifford John |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Byles, William Pollard | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. |
| Cowan, W. H. | Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpton. |
| Cremer, William Randal | Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea) | Richardson, A. |
| Crombie, John William | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Crooks, William | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Crossley, William J. | Kekewich, Sir George | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee) |
| Davies, David(MontgomeryCo. | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Kitson, Sir James | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Laidlaw, Robert | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Rose, Charles Day |
| Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lambert, George | Rowlands, J. |
| Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Lamont, Norman | Russell, T. W. |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | Layland-Barratt, Francia | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N. | Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.) | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Leese, SirJosephF. (Accrington. | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Dobson, Thomas W. | Lehmann, K. C. | Schwann, Chas. E. (Manchester |
| Dodd, W. H. | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich | Sears, J. E. |
| Duckworth, James | Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) | Seaverns, J. H. |
| Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness | Levy, Maurice | Shackleton, David James |
| Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Lewis, John Herbert | Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) |
| Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Lough, Thomas | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Silcock, Thomas Ball |
| Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) | Lynch, H. B. | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward | Macdonald. J. M. (FalkirkB'ghs) | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | Maclean, Donald | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Everett, R. Lacey | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Spicer, Albert |
| Faber, G. H. (Boston) | M'Arthur, William | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Fenwick, Charles | M'Callum, John M. | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) |
| Ferens, T. R. | M'Crae, George | Steadman, W. C. |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter | M'Micking, Major G. | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Manfield, Harry (Northants) | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Mansfield, H. Rendall(Lincoln) | Stuart, James (Sunderland) |
| Fullerton, Hugh | Marks, G.Croydon(Launceston) | Summerbell, T. |
| Gibb, James (Harrow) | Marnham, F. J. | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Gill, A. H. | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Glendinning, R. G. | Massie, J. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Menzies, Walter | Taylor, Theodore C (Radcliffe) |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Micklem, Nathaniel | Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury |
| Greenwood. Hamar (York) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Mond, A. | Thompson,J.W.H.(Somerset,E. |
| Gulland, John W. | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Tillett, Louis John |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Montagu, E. S. | Tomkinson, James |
| Hare curt, Rt. Hon. Lewis | Montgomery, H. H. | Torrance, A. M. |
| Hardy. George A. (Suffolk) | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Toulmin, George |
| Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Worc'r) | Morrell, Philip | Verney, F. W. |
| Hart-Davies, T. | Morse, L. L. | Vivian, Henry |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Murray, James | Wallace, Robert |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Myer, Horatio | Walsh, Stephen |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Napier, T. B. | Walters, John Tudor |
| Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) | Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent |
| Hedges, A. Paget | Newnes, Sir G. (Swansea) | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton. |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Nicholls, George | Wardle, George J. |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney). |
| Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.) | Nuttall, Harry | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Parker, James (Halifax) | Watt, H. Anderson |
| Higham, John Sharp | Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Hodge, John | Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk,Eye | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Holden, E. Hopkinson | Perks, Robert William | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Hooper, A. G. | Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton) | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke | Whitehead, Rowland |
| Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Whitley, J.H. (Halifax) |
| Horniman, Emslie John | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Pollard, Dr. | Wiles, Thomas |
| Hutton, Alfred Eddison | Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Hyde, Clarendon | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | Priestley, W.E.B. (Bradford,E. | Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthen) |
| Jackson, R. S. | Radford, G. H. | |
| Jacoby, James Alfred | Raphael, Herbert H. | Williamson, A |
| Jardine, Sir J. | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | Wills, Arthur Walters |
| Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th) | Wilson, H, J. (York. W. R.) |
| Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) | Winfrey, R | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr |
| Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon | Whiteley and Mr. J. A. |
| Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) | Woodhouse, Sir J. T.(Huddersf'd | Pease. |
| Wilson, W. T (Westhoughton) | Yoxall, James Henry |
§ LORD R. CECILsaid he desired to move the Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Dublin—to leave out the words "public schools" from the first line of paragraph (b). The object was that it should not be necessary to find for the children of the minority another school altogether, provided that sufficient accommodation was afforded either in the four-fifths school itself or somewhere else, for giving them the religious instruction they required. The object of paragraph (b) was quite plain. The theory of the paragraph was that in single school areas it was not fair that the school should be a four-fifths school, or, in other words that there must be provision for the teaching of a Nonconformist child other than in a Church school. Something would have to be done to alter the clause as it stood. What did it amount to? That where three-fourths of the children were members of the Church of England and one-quarter members of the Nonconformist body then they could take from the three-fourths the religious instruction they desired and force upon them the religious instruction which only one-fourth of the children attending the school desired. That did not appear to him to be justice. It was the duty of the Government as far as possible to provide that no child attending a public elementary school should suffer in any way by this Bill in the matter of religious instruction, and to see that every child should receive the religious instruction that its parents desired. If the Amendment were carried no doubt that idea would be nearly secured. The only solution which hon. Members would be compelled to adopt sooner or later, unless they accepted what was proposed in this Amendment, would be one involving purely secular teaching. In that way they would as nearly as possible secure all children against the injustice of receiving religious instruction which they did not require. It was of the utmost importance to provide in every way for meeting the religious objections of the parents. Although the 1030 clause was by no means a perfect one, it contained the germ of a settlement, and it was a matter of satisfaction to him that its principle had been upheld by the Party opposite, believing, as he did, that sooner or later they would be compelled to make that principle a reality in the education of the country.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 3, line 9, to leave out the work is 'public school,' "—(Lord R. Cecil.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
§ MR. DILLONsaid the Amendment raised an exceedingly important question—the question why it should be made a condition of giving these extended facilities that the children whose parents did not desire the facilities should have to be accommodated in other schools. It was made a complaint by Nonconformists against Clause 4 that these children were to be turned out of the schools. He did not see why this requirement should apply in the case of schools into which the minority had entered willingly. The parents, unasked, had sent their children to those schools with the present religious instruction in full swing, and therefore, it was perfectly clear that there was no conscientious difficulty. By the very structure of the clause it only applied to schools into which these children went, not from compulsion but from choice. He would ask hon. Gentlemen opposite to apply the principle of fair play and equal treatment in this matter. Let them take the ordinary provided schools. There they had a system which had been described by Dr. Clifford as civic Protestantism. Did they insist before they allowed this civic Protestantism to be taught in this country that there should be other school accommodation? If they did not, where was the equality and fair play? Where was. the justice of compelling the minority in a provided school, where civic Protestantism was taught to remain there, through want of other accommodation, 1031 and of saying that denominational schools should not have the right to teach the religion of the Church of England or Catholic religion to four-fifths, until the other children found accommodation in other schools? That was not justice. In the vast majority of schools that came under Clause 4, where children of another religion went into the schools of their own freewill, accepting the religious instruction given, there was no justice or reason in insisting as a condition of the continuation of the instruction that accommodation should be found in other schools for those children.
§ MR. ALFRED HUTTON (Yorkshire, W.R., Morley)understood there might be some difficulty in dealing with the one-fifth children whose parents did not fall in with the religious education given in the denominational school. The alternative school was supposed to be an adequate provision for them, but he thought hon. Members were now pretty well aware that the law was not the only compulsory force which drove the children into a particular school. Distance, convenience, and safety were strong forces which sometimes compelled their entrance into schools their parents might not otherwise choose. If it was intended by this Amendment that Church of England teaching or Cowper-Temple teaching might be given inside a Roman Catholic school, in some other class-room, at the same time as the extended facilities teaching was given by the authorised person, he saw no reason for opposing the suggestion. He preferred undenominational education, but he was bound to say that as Clause 4 gave very large facilities for those who preferred denominational education he could not see why the Government should not accept the offer now made by the hon. Member for East Mayo. If the matter were pressed to a division he would go into the lobby with the hon. Member.
§ MR. J. CHAMBERLAINsaid he gathered from the nature of the cheers on the other side of the House that they anticipated the welcome which he desired to give to the speech that had just been delivered. He only desired to point out to the hon. Member for the Morley Division that the 1032 suggestion had been made by other speakers besides the Member for East Mayo, and by no one more earnestly than by himself. The proposal was for universal facilities, and he joined in pressing on the Government the solution which he had already suggested. Whether or not there should be entire separation between religious and secular instruction, so far as payment either out of taxes or rates was concerned, there should be universal facilities for those who dissented from the teaching in any given school to secure for their children the kind of religious education which they desired. Where children, owing to reasons of distance, convenience, and the like, were sent for secular education to a school at which religious instruction was given of which their parents did not approve, it would be very unsafe to rely upon those parents to support the managers in securing the continuance of the religious instruction now given.
§ MR. BIRRELLsaid the construction which the right hon. Gentleman put upon the Amendment was that it would make facilities universal. That was a course which the Government could not adopt. They had made the course they had taken perfectly plain. It was part and parcel of the proposals of Clause 4 that the facilities should not be extended unless there was in the area where the four-fifths school was set up, undenominational accommodation in a public school for the children who did not desire the facilities. This was a very difficult Amendment to deal with. It started off by leaving out the words "public school." Those words had a technical meaning. Parliament, by Section 5 of the Act of 1870, had required the provision of a sufficient amount of public school accommodation without payment of a fee. It was essential that there should be in an area where a four-fifths school was set up sufficient public-school accommodation—accommodation in a school where no fee was charged— for the children whose parents did not desire these facilities. That was one technical reason why it was impossible to accept the Amendment. The Bill proceeded on the assumption that the children were not required to go to the four-fifths school, and, if their parents 1033 refused, that there should be public school accommodation elsewhere. It was not proposed, as the hon. Member for East Mayo suggested, that the one-fifth should be turned out, but only that there should be another school to which they could go if they wanted to.
§ MR. DILLONSupposing they all declared they did not want to go, must they still have the other accommodation provided for them?
§ MR. BIRRELLsaid no, and that was not the point. The objection to the noble Lord's proposal was that the one-fifth might be kept in the school against their will. If they were satisfied with the school they could vote for it, and that school would then get the facilities. But it was perfectly plain that if they were dissatisfied, and did not want their children educated in the school with these extended facilities, it was part and parcel, a sine qua non of the proposal of the Government that there should be a public school within the area in which they could receive their secular instruction. The Government view was that in the four-fifths school there might be denominational teaching every day in the week, and they did not wish to introduce into these four-fifths schools what was called the "Cowper-Temple religion." Neither did they wish to compel any child to receive this denominational teaching if its parents objected to it. Therefore, anyone who had made a study of Clause 4 would see that it was impossible for the Government to accept this Amendment.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the right hon. Gentleman had spoken of those who had made a special study of Clause 4. A great many of them had made a special study of the clause, but they had seldom had a more difficult subject for investigation, and since the Government had set to work to amend it, the clause had become perfectly unintelligible. The right hon. Gentleman, with a confidence which really surprised him, had spoken as if the Committee were seised of the method by which the Education Department and the local authority were to make themselves acquainted with the 1034 wishes of the one-fifth minority. They had not the least notion how the opinion of the one-fifth was to be ascertained. Would the Government destroy the denominational character of a school where there was one-fifth of a different denomination, but who did not want to go anywhere else? The Bill required other accommodation to be found for the minority. Why go to that expense if the existing accommodation were satisfactory? Why, if there were no other accommodation, destroy the denominational character of the school? The right hon. Gentleman was ingenious in his defence of Clause 4. Whenever it was criticised, he said with engaging frankness that it was a wretched, indefensible, and inconsistent clause, but that its critics ought to be thankful for having any clause at all. By rejecting an Amendment evidently calculated to carry out the wishes of the parents, the right hon. Gentleman had excited the disgust of the hon. Member for Morley, who spoke for the Nonconformists. [Cries of "No."] The hon. Member used to speak for the Nonconformists, and his fate was a sad example of the mutability of human fortunes. The hon. Member had lapsed into a generous and tolerant attitude towards those who did not agree with him in their religious and educational views. What was the result? Faithful service extending over many years, laborious efforts made all through the protracted debates of 1902 against the iniquitous provisions of a flagitious measure—all these were vain, one lapse into generosity had wiped out the services of years. The hon. Member would be driven in the long run to take his place among the small but faithful band of Liberal Churchmen, or even to cross the floor of the House and utter his criticisms of the Government in a less chilling atmosphere and amid less hostile surroundings. But though the right hon. Gentleman was obdurate to persuasion, the case submitted was difficult to resist-There was the case of the school mentioned by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham—a school built, recently, entirely out of Church funds, in the neighbourhood of board schools and yet containing a considerable number of Nonconformist children. The Government asserted that the parents of these 1035 children would, if they preferred a denominational to a Board School for their children, vote for the continuance of the denominational system. Surely, that was the last course which knowledge of human nature suggested as probable. By the provisions of the Bill the Government, while surely doing all they could for the one-third of Nonconformist children who voluntarily went to that school, might have some consideration for the two-thirds whose money had been spent in providing the school, seeing that it remained in the possession of the denomination as a denominational school, with the power of having special facilities for the two-thirds of the school children adhering to the denomination. The right hon. Gentleman had said that the Amendment was contrary to the plan of the Government. This procedure had been adopted by the Government throughout these debates. He believed that the clause was genuinely intended as some relief to the denominationalists, and as such he had intended to welcome it. But when he found that everything which prevented the clause from being a delusion was rejected, that everything which turned a sham into a reality was cast aside with scorn, he did not know whether he would not express his own feelings worse by supporting the clause than by voting against it. The right hon. Gentleman had shown no attempt to meet the Opposition, neither had he attempted to make the clause a reality. ["Oh, oh."] The right hon. Gentleman's xcuse was that this was an undeominational Bill, and a denominational
§ clause stuck into it was an anomaly, and, being an anomaly, they could not expect the work to be artistically perfect. Was, then, the clause worthy the support of the Committee in its present shape? ["No."] In view of the line which the right hon. Gentleman had taken, it was a very difficult question to answer; but it was clear that no denomination would really gain by the clause unless it was profoundly amended at some later stage of the Bill. Unfortunately, the Opposition were not in a position to compel the production of these Amendments on the Committee stage, as might have been the case had there been greater opportunities of discussion. There were cases in which no Government could stand the reiterated expression of unanswerable arguments. The arguments were unanswerable, but they could not be reiterated, and in Committee the Clause would pass with all its imperfections upon it. But if it remained permanently in the shape in which the Government desired to pass it at present, the idea that it was a valuable concession to certain great interests in the country was a complete delusion. Change would have to be introduced in it at future stages, and they must be real and substantial if they were to carry out the policy which the Government themselves professed.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 367; Noes, 197. (Division list No. 160.)
1041| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Brace, William |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Barnard, E. B. | Bramsdon, T. A. |
| Adkins, W. Ryland | Barnes, G. N. | Branch, James |
| Agnew, George William | Barran, Rowland Hirst | Brigg, John |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Beauchamp, E. | Brocklehurst, W D. |
| Alden, Percy | Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) | Brodie, H. C. |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Bellairs, Carlyon | Brooke, Stopford |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Benn, John Williams(Devonp'rt | Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh) |
| Armitage, R. | Benn, W. (T'wr HamletsS. Geo.) | Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen) |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Bennett, E. N. | Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Berridge, T. H. D. | Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. | Bertram, Julius | Buckmaster, Stanley O. |
| Astbury, John Meir | Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford) | Burns, Rt. Hon. John |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Burnyeat, J. D. W. |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Billson, Alfred | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Baker, J. A. (Finsbury, E.) | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas. |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire) | Cairns, Thomas |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Bolton, T. D.(Derbyshire, N.E.) | Cameron, Robert |
| Barlow, John E. (Somerset) | Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. |
| Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard K. | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | M'Arthur, William, |
| Cawley, Frederick | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richird B. | M'Cullum, John M. |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis | M'Crae, George |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | M'Kenna, Reginald |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) | M Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Harmsworth, R.L.(Caith'ss-sh) | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) |
| Clarke, C. Goddard | Hart-Davies, T. | M'Micking, Major G. |
| Cleland, J. W. | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Mallet, Charles E. |
| Clough, W. | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Manfield, Harry (Northants) |
| Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew. W.) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Mansfield, H. Randall (Lincoln) |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Haworth, Arthur A. | Markham, Arthur Basil |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Marks, G. Croydon (Launcest'n) |
| Collins, Sir W.J.(S. Pancras, W.) | Hedges, A. Paget | Marnham, F. J. |
| Cooper, G. J. | Helme, Norval Watson | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Massie, J, |
| Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, E Grinst'd | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W. | Menzies, Walter |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon. S.) | Micklem, Nathaniel |
| Cory, Clifford John | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Higham, John Sharp | Mond, A. |
| Cowan, W. H. | Hobart, Sir Robert | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Cremer, William Randal | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Montagu, E. S. |
| Crombie, John William | Hodge, John | Montgomery, H. H. |
| Crooks, William | Holden, E. Hopkinson | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) |
| Cross, Alexander | Hooper, A. G. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) |
| Crossley, William J. | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Morley, Rt. Hon. John |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset, N. | Morrell, Philip |
| Davies, D. (Montgomery Co.) | Horniman, Emslie John | Morse, L. L. |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Horridge, Thomas Gardiner | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Murray, James |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Hyde, Clarendon | Myer, Horatio |
| Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Illingworth, Percy H. | Napier, T. B. |
| Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Newnes, F. (Notts. Bassetlaw) |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.) | Jackson, R. S. | Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) |
| Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N. | Jacoby, James Alfred | Nicholls, George |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Jardine, Sir J. | Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Norman, Henry |
| Dobson, Thomas W. | Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Dodd, W. H. | Jones, David B. (Swansea) | Nuttall, Harry |
| Duckworth, James | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) |
| Duncan, C.(Barrow-inFurness) | Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Jowett, F. W. | Partington, Oswald |
| Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Kearley, Hudson E. | Paul, Herbert |
| Dunne, Maj. E. Martin(Walsall) | Kekewich, Sir George | Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) |
| Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) | Kelley, George D. | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Kincaid-Smith, Captain | Pearson, W.H-M.(Suffolk, Eye) |
| Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Perks, Robert William |
| Erskine, David C. | Kitson, Sir James | Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton) |
| Evans, Samuel T. | Laidlaw, Robert | Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke) |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) |
| Everett, R. Lacey | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Faber, G. H. (Boston) | Lambert, George | Pollard, Dr. |
| Fenwick, Charles | Lamont, Norman | Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) |
| Ferens, T. R. | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid | Price, Robert John (Norfolk.E. |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) |
| Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter | Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E. | Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E. |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Leese, Sir J. A. (Accrington) | Radford, G. H |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Lehmann, R. C. | Rainy, A. Rollaud |
| Fullerton, Hugh | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) | Raphael, Herbert H- |
| Furness, Sir Christopher | Lever, W. H.(Cheshire, Wirral) | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) |
| Gibb, James (Harrow) | Levy, Maurice | Rees, J. D. |
| Gill, A. H. | Lewis, John Herbert | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herb. John | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Renton, Major Leslie |
| Glendinning, R. G. | Lough, Thomas | Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th) |
| Glover, Thomas | Lupton, Arnold | Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mp'n) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Richardson, A. |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Greenwood, Hamar (York) | Lynch, H. B. | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln) |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Grove, Archibald | Mackarness, Frederic C. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) |
| Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Maclean, Donald | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee) |
| Gulland, John W. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradf'rd |
| Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. |
| Robinson, S. | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Robson, Sir William Snowdon | Strachey, Sir Edward | Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney) |
| Rose, Charles Bay | Strauss, B. S. (Mile End) | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Rowlands, J. | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) | Watt, H. Anderson |
| Runciman, Walter | Stuart, James (Sunderland) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Russell, T. W. | Summerbell, T. | Weir, James Galloway |
| Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | Sutherland, J. E. | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland) | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Scarisbrick, T. T. L. | Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe) | Whitehead, Rowland |
| Schwann, C. Duncan. (Hyde) | Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Schwann, Chas. E. (Manchester) | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Sears, J. E. | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Seaverns, J. H. | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Seddon, J. | Thomasson, Franklin | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Seely, Major J. B. | Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E. | Williams, L. (Carmarthen) |
| Shackleton, David James | Tillett, Louis John | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) | Tomkinson, James | Williamson, A. |
| Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) | Torrance, A. M. | Wills, Arthur Walters |
| Shipman, Dr. John G. | Toulmin, George | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Silcock, Thomas Ball | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N. |
| Simon, John Allsebrook | Verney, F. W. | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | Villiers, Ernest Amherst | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)' |
| Sloan, Thomas Henry | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) | Winfrey, R. |
| Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Wallace, Robert | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Snowden, P. | Walsh, Stephen. | Woodhouse, SirJ. T. (Huddersf'd. |
| Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Walters, John Tudor | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Soares, Ernest J. | Walton, Sir J. L. (Leeds, S.) | |
| Spicer, Albert | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Stanger, H. Y. | Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent) | Whiteley and Mr. J. A. |
| Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) | Ward, W. Dudley(Southampt'n) | Pease. |
| Steadman, W. C. | Wardle, George J. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.) | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A(Worc. | Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Chance, Frederick William | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Clancy, John Joseph | Ginnell, L. |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham) | Haddock, George R. |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Halpin, J. |
| Ashley, W. W. | Cogan, Denis J. | Hammond, John |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H. | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Harrington, Timothy |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Courthope, G. Loyd | Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. |
| Balfour, Rt. HnAJ(City Lond.) | Cox, Harold | Harwood, George |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Craig, Captain James (Down,E. | Hay, Hon. Claude George |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Craik, Sir Henry | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Banner, John S. Harmood | Crean, Eugene | Hazleton, Richard |
| Baring, Hn. Guy (Winchester) | Dalrymple, Viscount | Heaton, John Henniker |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Delany, William | Helmsley, Viscount |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway) | Hervey, F.W.F.(BurySEdm'ds) |
| Beach, Hn. Michael HughHicks | Dillon, John | Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Dixon, Sir Daniel | Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.) |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred D. | Hogan, Michael |
| Blake, Edward | Dolan, Charles Joseph | Hornby, Sir William Henry |
| Boland, John | Donelan, Captain A. | Houston, Robert Paterson |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Doughty, Sir George | Hutton, Alfred Eddison |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Joyce, Michael |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Duffy, William J. | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Duncan, Robert (Lanark. Govan | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Kenyon-Slaney. Rt. Hon. Col. W. |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Faber, George Denison (York) | Keswick, William |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. | Fardell, Sir T. George | Kilbride, Denis |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Farrell, James Patrick | King, Sir HenrySeymour(Hull) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Fell, Arthur | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. |
| Cave, George | Ffrench, Peter | Lane-Fox, G. R. |
| Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W. | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey | Fletcher, J. S. | Lee, ArthurH (Hants, Fareham) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Flynn, James Christopher | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R. |
| Chamberlain, Rt, Hn. J. (Birm.) | Forster, Henry William | Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) |
| Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin S) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Lowe, Sir Francis William | O'Brien, Wm. (Cork) | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Lundon, W. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) | Saunderson, RtHn. Col. Edw. J. |
| Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Smith, FE. (Liverpool, Walton) |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. | O'Doherty, Philip | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.) | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| M'Calmont, Colonel James | O'Dowd, John | Starkey, John R. |
| M'Hugh, Patrick A. | O'Hare, Patrick | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Sullivan, Donal |
| M'Kean, John | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N | Talbot, RtHn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.) |
| M'Killop, W. | O'Malley, William | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Magnus, Sir Philip | O'Mara, James | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Marks, H. H. (Kent) | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Tumour, Viscount |
| Mason, James F. (Windsor) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard |
| Masterman, C. F. G. | O'Shee, James John | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) |
| Meagher, Michael | Pease, HerbertPike (Darlington | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Meehan, Patrick A. | Percy, Earl | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Power, Patrick Joseph | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Rawlinson, John Frederick P. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Mooney, J. J. | Reddy, M. | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Morpeth, Viscount | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Muntz, Sir Philip A. | Redmond, William (Clare) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Murnaghan, George | Remnant, James Farquharson | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Murphy, John | Roche, Augustine (Cork) | Young, Samuel |
| Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | Roche, John (Galway, East) | Younger, George |
| Nield, Herbert | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert | |
| Nolan, Joseph | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir |
| Nussey, Thomas Willans | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) | Alexander Acland-Hood and |
| O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid) | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) | Viscount Valentia. |
§ And, it being after half-past Ten of the clock, the Chairman proceeded to put the Question on the Amendments proposed by the Government of which notice had been given, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 18th June.
§
Amendment made—
In page 3, line 20, by inserting, after the word 'inquiry,' the words 'and cause a ballot to be taken.'"—(Mr. Birrell.)
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 360; Noes 200. (Division List No. 161.)
| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Barnard, E. B. | Branch, James |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Barnes, G. N. | Brigg, John |
| Adkins, W. Ryland | Barran, Rowland Hirst | Brocklehurst, W. D. |
| Agnew, George William | Beale, W. P. | Brodie, H. C. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Beauchamp, E. | Brooke, Stopford |
| Alden, Percy | Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) | Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh) |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Bellairs, Carlyon | Brunner, Sir John T.(Cheshire) |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Benn John Williams (Devonp'rt | Bryce, Rt. Hn. James Aberdeen) |
| Armitage, R. | Bennett, E. N. | Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs) |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Berridge, T. H. D. | Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Bertram, Julius | Buckmaster, Stanley O. |
| Asquith, RtHn. HerbertHenry | Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford) | Burns, Rt. Hon. John |
| Astbury, John Meir | Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Burnyeat, J. D. W. |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Billson, Alfred | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire | Byles, William Pollard |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Cairns, Thomas |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Cameron, Robert |
| Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset | Brace, William | Carr-Gomm, H. W. |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Bramsdon, T. A. | Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knigh |
| Cawley, Frederick | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | M'Micking, Major G. |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Mallet, Charles E. |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Manfield, Harry (Northants) |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Haworth, Arthur A. | Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Markham, Arthur Basil |
| Clarke, C. Goddard | Hedges, A. Paget | Marks, G.Croydon(Launceston) |
| Cleland, J. W. | Helme, Norval Watson | Marnham, F. J. |
| Clough, W. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) |
| Coats, SirT. Glen(Renfrew, W.) | Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.) | Massie, J. |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon.,S.) | Menzies, Walter |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Micklem, Nathaniel |
| Collins, SirWm.J.(S.Pancras, W | Higham, John Sharp | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Cooper, G. J. | Hobart, Sir Robert | Mond, A. |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Corbett, CH(Sussex, E.Grinst'd | Hodge, John | Montagu, E. S. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Holden, E. Hopkinson | Montgomery, H. H. |
| Cory, Clifford John | Holland, Sir William Henry | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Hooper, A. G. | Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen) |
| Cremer, William Randal | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Morley, Rt. Hon. John |
| Crombie, John William | Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset, N) | Morrell, Philip |
| Crooks, William | Horniman, Emslie John | Morse, L. L. |
| Cross, Alexander | Horridge, Thomas Gardner | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Crossley, William J. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Murray, James |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Hutton, Alfred Eddison | Myer, Horatio |
| Davies, David(MontgomeryCo. | Hyde, Clarendon | Napier, T. B. |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Illingworth, Percy H. | Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Jackson, R. S. | Nicholls, George |
| Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Jacoby, James Alfred | Nicholson, Chas.N.(Doncaster |
| Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Jardine, Sir J. | Norman, Henry |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.) | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Dickinson, W.H.(S.Pancrs,N.) | Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea | Nuttall, Harry |
| Dilke Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Dobson, Thomas W. | Jones, William(Carnarvonshire) | Paul, Herbert |
| Dodd, W. H. | Jowett, F. W. | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Duckworth, James | Kearley, Hudson E. | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Kekewich, Sir George | Pearson, W.H.M.(Suffolk, Eye) |
| Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Kelley, George D. | Philipps, Col.Ivor(S'thampton) |
| Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Kincaid-Smith, Captain | Philipps, J.Wynford(Pembroke |
| Dunne, Major E.Martin(Walsall | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Kitson, Sir James | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward | Laidlaw, Robert | Pollard, Dr. |
| Erskine, David C. | Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster | Price, C.E.(Edinburgh, Central) |
| Evans, Samuel T. | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Price, RobertJohn(Norfolk,E.) |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | Lambert, George | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) |
| Everett, R. Lacey | Lamont, Norman | Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.) |
| Faber, G. H. (Boston) | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid | Radford, G. H. |
| Fenwick, Charles | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Rainy, A. Holland |
| Ferens, T. R. | Lea, HughCecil(St. Pancras, E.) | Raphael, Herbert H. |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington) | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) |
| Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter | Lehmann, R. C. | Rees, J. D. |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich) | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Lever, W.H.(Cheshire, Wirral) | Renton, Major Leslie |
| Furness, Sir Christopher | Levy, Maurice | Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th |
| Gibb, James (Harrow) | Lewis, John Herbert | Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n) |
| Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Richardson, A. |
| Glendinning, R. G. | Lough, Thomas | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Lupton, Arnold | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Gooch, George Peabody | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Greenwood, Hamar (York) | Lynch, H. B. | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Macdonald, J. M.(FalkirkB'ghs | Robinson, S. |
| Grove, Archibald | Mackarness, Frederic C. | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Maclean, Donald | Rose, Charles Day |
| Gulland, John W. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Rowlands, J. |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | M'Arthur, William | Runciman, Walter |
| Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis | M'Callum, John M. | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | M'Crae, George | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Worc'r) | M'Kenna, Reginald | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Harmsworth, RL. (Caithn'ss-sh | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Scarisbrick, T. T. L. |
| Hart-Davies, T. | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) |
| Schwann, Cbas. E.(Manchester) | Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury | Weir, James Galloway |
| Sears, J. E. | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Seaverns, J. H. | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Shackleton, David James | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) | Thomasson, Franklin | Whitehead, Rowland |
| Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) | Thompson, J.W.H.(S'mers'tE, | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Shipman, Dr. John G. | Tillett, Louis John | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Silcock, Thomas Ball | Tomkinson, James | Wiles, Thomas |
| Simon, John Allsebrook | Torrance, A. M. | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | Toulmin, George | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Sloan, Thomas Henry | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Williams Llewelyn (Carmarth'n |
| Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Verney, F. W. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Snowdon, P. | Villiers, Ernest Amherst | Williamson, A. |
| Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Vivian, Henry | Wills, Arthur Walters |
| Soares, Ernest J. | Walker, H. De R.(Leicester) | Wilson, Hon.C.H.W.(Hull,W.) |
| Spicer, Albert | Wallace, Robert | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Stanger, H. Y. | Walsh, Stephen | Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh.N.) |
| Stanley, Hn.A.Lyulph(Chesh.) | Walters, John Tudor | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Steadman, W. C. | Walton, SirJohn L. (Leeds, S.) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) | Winfrey, R. |
| Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) | Ward, John(Stoke-upon-Trent) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Strachey, Sir Edward | Ward, W.Dudley(Southampton | Woodhouse, Sir JT(Hudd'rsfi' |
| Straus, B. S. (Mile End) | Wardle, George J. | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. | |
| Stuart, James (Sunderland) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Summerbell, T. | Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney) | Whiteley and Mr. J. A. |
| Sutherland, J. E. | Waterlow, D. S. | Pease. |
| Taylor, John W.(Durham) | Watt, H. Anderson | |
| Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork,N.E.) | Cogan, Denis J. | Hammond, John |
| Ambrose, Robert | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Harrington, Timothy |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Courthope, G. Loyd | Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Cowan, W. H. | Harwood, George |
| Ashley, W. W. | Craig, Captain James(Down,E.) | Hay, Hon. Claude George |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hon.SirH | Craik, Sir Henry | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Balcarres, Lord | Crean, Eugene | Hazleton, Richard |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Crosfield, A. H. | Heaton, John Henniker |
| Balfour, RtHnA.J.(CityLond.) | Dalrymple, Viscount | Helmsley, Viscount |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B.(Hornsey) | Delany, William | Hervey, F.W.F.(Bury S. Edm'ds |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galway | Hill, SirClement(Shrewsbury) |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Dillon, John | Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.) |
| Baring, Hon. Guy(Winchester) | Dixon, Sir Daniel | Hogan, Michael |
| Barrie, H.T.(Londonderry, N.) | Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon | Hornby, Sir William Henry |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Dolan, Charles Joseph | Houston, Robert Paterson |
| Beach, Hon. MichaelHughHicks | Donelan, Captain A. | Joyce, Michael |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Doughty, Sir George | Kennaway, Rt.Hn. SirJohnH. |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Blake, Edward | Du Cros, Harvey | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt.Hn.Col.W. |
| Boland, John | Duffy, William J. | Keswick, William |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Duncan, Robert(Lanark Govan) | Kilbride, Denis |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Esmonde, Sir Thomas | King, Sir HenrySeymour(Hull) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Faber, George Denison (York) | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Fardell, Sir T. George | Lane-Fox, G. R. |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Farrell, James Patrick | Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Fell, Arthur | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. | Ffrench, Peter | Lee, ArthurH.(Hants., Farehan |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Lockwood, Rt. Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham |
| Cave, George | Fletcher, J. S. | Long, Rt.Hn.Walter(Dublin,S. |
| Cavendish, Rt.Hon. VictorC.W. | Flynn, James Christopher | Lowe, Sir Francis William |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Forster, Henry William | Lundon, W. |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Fullerton, Hugh | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Chamberlain, Rt.Hon.J.(Birm.) | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down,S.) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn.J. A. (Worc | Ginnell, L. | MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal,S.) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Glover, Thomas | M'Calmont, Colonel James |
| Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham) | Haddock, George R. | M'Hugh, Patrick A. |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Halpin, J. | M'Iver, SirLewis(Edinburgh W. |
| M'Kean, John | O'Dowd, John | Seddon, J. |
| M'Killop, W. | O'Hare, Patrick | Seely, Major J. B. |
| Magnus, Sir Philip | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton) |
| Marks, H. H. (Kent) | O'Kelly, Jas. (Roseommon, N.) | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Mason, James F. (Windsor) | O Maliey, William | Smyth, Thos. F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Masterman, C. F. G. | O Mara, James | Starkey, John R. |
| Meagher, Michael | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Sullivan, Donal |
| Meehan, Patrick A. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Talbot, Rt. HnJ.G.(Oxf'd Univ |
| Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | O'Shee, James John | Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Percy, Earl | Turnour, Viscount |
| Mooney, J. J. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard |
| Morpeth, Viscount | Power, Patrick Joseph | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancash.) |
| Muntz, Sir Philip A. | Rawlinson, John FrederickPeel | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Murnaghan, George | Reddy, M. | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.) |
| Murphy, John | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | Redmond, William (Clare) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Nield, Herbert | Remnant, James Farquharson | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Nolan, Joseph | Roche, Augustine (Cork) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York,E.R.) |
| O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid. | Roche, John (Galway, East) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| O'Brien, William (Cork) | Rothschild, Hon.Lionel Walter | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) | Russell, T. W. | Young, Samuel |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) | Younger, George |
| O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) | |
| O'Doherty, Philip | Salter, Arthur Clavell | TELLERS FOR THE NOES:—Sir |
| O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | Alexander Acland-Hood and |
| O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Viscount Valentia. |
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 3, line 22, at the end, to insert the words 'extended facilities shall not be afforded under this section except where the use of the schoolhouse is given, or the schoolhouse is transferred, to the local education authority free of any rent or other payment.'"—(Mr. Birrell.)
§ Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
1047
§
Amendment made—
In page 3, line 25, by inserting, after the word 'inquiry,' the words 'and causing a ballot to be taken.' "—(Mr. Birrell.)
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 4, line 2, at the end, to add the words 'where the local education authority refuse to agree to an arrangement offered to them by the owners of the schoolhouse of an existing voluntary school as respects the use of the schoolhouse, and the school is one in respect of which extended facilities could be granted under this section, and are desired, the owners of the schoolhouse may appeal to the Board of Education, and that Board may, if they think fit, after considering the circumstances of the case, and the wishes of the parents of children attending the school as to the continuance of the school with extended facilities, by order, make an arrangement under this Act with respect to the use of the schoolhouse on such terms and conditions as may be contained in the order, including, if thought fit, a condition requiring extended facilities to be afforded, but if under any special circumstances of the case the Board think it expedient, they may, instead of making such an arrangement, make an order allowing the school to continue as a State-aided school. Provided that—
1048
'(a) An order shall not be made under this provision unless the schoolhouse is, in the opinion of the Board of Education, structurally suitable; and (b) An arrangement made by order for the use of a schoolhouse under this provision shall not have effect for more than five years.
'It shall be the duty of the local education authority to comply with any condition contained in any arrangement made by an order under this section.'"—(Mr. Birrell.)
§ Question proposed, "That the Amendment be made."
MR. STANLEY WILSON (Yorkshire, E.R., Holderness),on a point of order, said that at the commencement of the debate on Clause 4 the Chairman ruled an Amendment, which stood in the name of the noble Lord the Member for Chichester, out of order because the Committee had already settled by Clause 1 that every public elementary school should become a provided school. He therefore submitted that according to 1049 that ruling this Amendment also was out of order.
THE CHAIRMANsaid the ruling which he gave on the Amendment of the noble Lord the Member for Chichester was because the words he proposed would have left a very large class of schools in a condition which would have been a contravention of a decision to which the Committee had already come. In this case the matter was different. The ruling on which questions of this kind should be treated was that Amendments should not be allowed to introduce a system inconsistent with the principle already laid down. He must say in regard to this particular Amendment that lie could not in any case rule it out of
§ order, because he was not at all sure that the State-aided schools would be recognised as public elementary schools. That alone would prevent him from ruling it out of order; but even if that consideration were out of the way any conclusion to which they had come would not prevent an Amendment permitting standing out in exceptional cases. The effect of the Government Amendment was merely to add one other small exception of a very limited character to those already contained in Clause 38.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 318; Noes, 161. (Division List No. 162.)
1053| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Branch, James | Cory, Clifford John |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Brigg, John | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. |
| Adkins, W. Ryland | Bright, J. A. | Cowan, W. H. |
| Agnew, George William | Brocklehurst, W. D. | Cremer, William Randal |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Brodie, H. C. | Crombie, John William |
| Armitage, R. | Brooke, Stopford | Cross, Alexander |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Brunner, J.F. L. (Lancs. Leigh) | Crossley, William J. |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Brunner, Sir J. T. (Cheshire) | Dalziel, James Henry |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert H. | Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen) | Davies, David(MontgomeryCo. |
| Astbury, John Meir | Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs) | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) |
| Baker, J. A. (Finsbury, E.) | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Burnyeat, J. D. W. | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Dickinson, W.H.(St.Panras, N. |
| Barlow, John E. (Somerset) | Buxton, Rt. Hn.SydneyChas. | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Byles, William Pollard | Dobson, Thomas W. |
| Barnard, E. B. | Cairns, Thomas | Dodd, W. H. |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Cameron, Robert | Duckworth, James |
| Beale, W. P. | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) |
| Beauchamp, E. | Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard K. | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) |
| Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) | Cawley, Frederick | Dunne, Maj. E, Martin (Walsall |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Chance, Frederick William | Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) |
| Benn, John Williams(Devonp't | Cheetham, John Frederick | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) |
| Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets S.Geo | Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Ellis, Rt. Hn. John Edward |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Churchill, Winston Spencer | Erskine, David C. |
| Bertram, Julius | Clarke, C. Goddard: | Eve, Harry Trelawney |
| Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford) | Clough, W. | Everett, R. Lacey |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W. | Faber, G. H. (Boston) |
| Billson, Alfred | Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Fenwick, Charles |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace |
| Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh. | Cooper, G. J. | Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter |
| Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire.N.E. | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Fowler, Rt. Hon, Sir Henry |
| Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Corbett, C.H.(Sussex,EGrinst'd | Fuller, John Michael F. |
| Bramsdon, T. A. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Fullerton, Hugh |
| Gibb, James (Harrow) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John | Lynch, H. B. | Rose, Charles Day |
| Glendinning, R. G. | Macdonald,JM (Falkirk B'ghs.) | Rowlands, J. |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Mackarness, Frederic C. | Runciman, Walter |
| Gooch, George Peabody | M'Arthur, William | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland), |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | M'Callum, John M. | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Greenwood, Hamar (York) | M'Crae, George | Scarisbrick, T. T. L. |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | M'Kenna, Reginald | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Schwann, Chas.E (Manchester) |
| Grove, Archibald | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Sears, J.E. |
| Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | M'Micking, Major G. | Seaverns, J. H. |
| Gulland, John W. | Mallet, Charles E. | Seely, Major J. B. |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton- | Manfield, Harry (Northants) | Shaw, Charles Edw (Stafford) |
| Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis | Markham, Arthur Basil | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T.(Hawick, B.) |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) | Marnham, F. J. | Silcock, Thomas Ball |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithn's-ssh | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Simon, John Allsebrook |
| Hart-Davies, T. | Massie, J. | Sinclair, Rt, Hon. John |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Menzies, Walter. | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Micklem, Nathaniel | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Mond, A. | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Hedges, A. Paget | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Spicer, Albert |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Montagu, E. S. | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Henderson, J.M(Aberdeen, W.) | Montgomery, H. H. | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh) |
| Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon. S. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Steadman, W. C. |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Morley, Rt. Hon. John | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Higham, John Sharp | Morrell, Philip | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | Morse, L. L. | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) |
| Hodge, John | Murray, James | Stewart, James (Sunderland) |
| Holden, E. Hopkinson | Myer, Horatio | Sutherland, J. F. |
| Holland, Sir William Henry | Napier, T. B. | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Hooper, A. G. | Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffee |
| Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset,N. | Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) | Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury) |
| Horniman, Emslie John | Nicholls, George | Tennant, H J. (Berwickshire) |
| Horridge, Thomas Gardner | Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E) |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Norman, Henry | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E) |
| Hyde, Clarendon | Norton, Capt. Cecil Williams | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Thompson, J.W.H. (Somerset,E |
| Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Nuttall, Harry | Tomkinson, James |
| Jackson, R. S. | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Torrance, A. M. |
| Jacoby, James Alfred | Partington, Oswald | Toulmin, George |
| Jardine, Sir J. | Paul, Herbert | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Johnson, John (Gat shead) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) | Verney, F. W. |
| Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Villiers, Ernest Amherst |
| Jones, David B. (Swansea) | Pearson, Sir W.D. (Colchester) | Vivian, Henry |
| Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Pearson, W.HM(Suffolk, Eye) | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) |
| Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Philipps, Col Ivor(S'thampton) | Wallace, Robert |
| Kearley, Hudson E. | Philipps, J.Wynford(Pembroke | Walters, John Tudor |
| Kekewich, Sir George | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Walton, Sir J.L. (Leeds, S.) |
| Kincaid-Smith, Captain | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Pollard, Dr. | Ward, W. D. (Southampton) |
| Kitson, Sir James | Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E. | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Laidlaw, Robert | Rainy, A. Holland | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster) | Raphael, Herbert H. | Wason, John Catchart(Orkney |
| Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Lambert, George | Rees, J. D. | Watt, H. Anderson |
| Lamont, Norman | Rendall, Athelstan | Weir, James Galloway |
| Lawson, Sir Wilfrid | Renton, Major Leslie | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire |
| Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) | Rickett, J. Compton | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Lehmann, R. C. | Ridsdale, E. A. | Whitehead, Rowland |
| Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich | Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Levy, Maurice | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee) | Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthen |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Robertson, SirG Scott(Bradf'rd | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Williamson, A. |
| Lough, Thomas | Robinson, S. | Wills, Arthur Walters |
| Wilson, Hon. Ch. W. (Hull, W.) | Winfrey, R. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon | Whiteley and Mr. J. A. |
| Wilson, J. W(Worcestersh. N.) | Woodhouse, Sir JT(Huddersf'd | Pease. |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch | Fletcher, J. S. | Perks, Robert William |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Forster, Henry William | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) | Radford, G. H. |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Rawlinson, John Frederick P. |
| Ashley, W. W. | Gill, A. H. | Remnant, Jas. Farquharson |
| Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt. Hn. Sir H. | Glover, Thomas | Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'm't'n |
| Balcarres, Lord | Haddock, George R. | Richardson, A. |
| Balfour, Rt. HnA. J. (City Lond. | Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Harwood, George | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester) | Heaton, John Henniker | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Barnes, G. N. | Helmsley, Viscount | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Beach, Hn. Michael HughHicks | Hervey, F. W. F. (BurySEdm'ds | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) | Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hill, Henry Staveley (Stafl'sh. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Hornby, Sir William Henry | Seddon, J. |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Houston, Robert Paterson | Shackleton, David James |
| Brace, William | Hutton, Alfred Eddison | Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Jowett, F. W. | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Kelley, George D. | Snowden, P. |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | Starkey, John R. |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W. | Summerbell, T. |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Keswick, William | Talbot. Rt. Hn. J G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | King, Sir HenrySeymour(Hull) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Cave, George | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Thomson,W. Mitchell (Lanark) |
| Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W | Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras. E | Turnour, Viscount |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt. -Col. A. R. | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. | Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wor. | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin. S. | Walsh, Stephen |
| Cleland, J. W. | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent |
| Coates, E Feetham(Lewisham) | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Wardle, George J. |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Wiles, Thomas |
| Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.) | M'Calmont, Colonel James | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Craik, Sir Henry | M'lver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Crooks, William | Magnus, Sir Philip | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Crosfield, A. H. | Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Marks, H. H. (Kent) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Dixon, Sir Daniel | Masterman, C. F. G. | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred D. | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart |
| Doughty, Sir George | Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton | Wyndham, Rt. Hn. George |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Younger, George |
| Du Cros, Harvey | Morpeth, Viscount | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Muntz, Sir Philip A. | |
| Duncan, Robt. (Lanark, Govan | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | |
| Evans, Samuel T. | Nield, Herbert | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Faber George Denison (York) | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Sir Alexander Acland-Hood |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Parker, James (Halifax) | and Viscount Valentia. |
| Fell, Arthur | Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington) | |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Percy, Earl |
§
Amendment proposed—
After the words last added, to add the words (5) The parents of at least twenty
1054
children attending a transferred voluntary school, if aggrieved by the mode in which extended facilities are afforded by a local edu-
1055
cation authority, may appeal to the Board of Education, and that Board, if satisfied, after considering the circumstances of the case, that there are reasonable grounds for the appeal, may make an order allowing the school to continue as a State-aided school, and providing so far as necessary for the cancelling of any arrangement made with respect to the transfer or use of the schoolhouse and for any
§ other matter for which provision is required in connection with the order.'"—(Mr. Birrell.)
§ Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 392; Noes, 156. (Division List No. 163.)
1061| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork,N. E.) | Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Duckworth, James |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Duffy, William J. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Burke, E. Haviland- | Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) |
| Adkins, W. Ryland | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) |
| Agnew, George William | Burnyeat, J. D. W. | Dunne,Major E. Martin(Walsall |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) |
| Armitage, R. | Byles, William Pollard | Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Cairns, Thomas | Erskine, David C. |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Cameron, Robert | Esmonde, Sir Thomas |
| Asquith. Rt. Hn. HerbertHenry | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Eve, Harry Trelawney |
| Astbury, John Meir | Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight | Everett, R. Lacey |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Cawley, Frederick | Faber, G. H. (Boston) |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Chance, Frederick William | Farrell, James Patrick |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E. | Cheetham, John Frederick | Fenwick, Charles |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Ferens, T. R. |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Churchill, Winston Spencer | Ffrench, Peter |
| Barlow, John Emmott(Somerset | Clancy, John Joseph | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Clarke, C. Goddard | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
| Barnard, E. B. | Clough, W. | Flynn, James Christopher |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew, W.) | Foster, Rt. Hn. Sir Walter |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Cogan, Denis J. | Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry |
| Beale, W. P. | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Fuller, John Michael F. |
| Beauchamp, E. | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Fullerton, Hugh |
| Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne | Cooper, G. J. | Furness, Sir Christopher |
| Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Gibb, James (Harrow) |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Corbett,CH(Sussex,E. Grinst'd | Gilhooly, James |
| Benn,John Williams(Devonport | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Ginnell, L. |
| Benn,W. (T'w'r Hamlets. S. Geo. | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. |
| Bennett, E. N. | Cowan, W. H. | Glendinning, R. G. |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Crean, Eugene | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) |
| Bertram, Julius | Cremer, William Randal | Greenwood, Hamar (York) |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Crombie, John William | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward |
| Billson, Alfred | Cross, Alexander | Griffith, Ellis J. |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Crossley, William J. | Grove, Archibald |
| Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire | Dalziel, James Henry | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill |
| Boland, John | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Gulland, John W. |
| Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton |
| Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Halpin, J. |
| Bramsdon, T. A. | Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hammond, John |
| Branch, James | Delany, William | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis |
| Brigg, John | Devlin, CharlesRamsay(Galway | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) |
| Bright, J. A. | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) |
| Brocklehurst, W. D. | Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras N. | Harmsworth,R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh |
| Brodie, H. C. | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Harrington, Timothy |
| Brooke, Stopford | Dillon, John | Hart-Davies, T. |
| Brunner,J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Dobson, Thomas W. | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) |
| Brunner. Sir John T. (Cheshire) | Dodd, W. H. | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) |
| Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeen | Dolan, Charles Joseph | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |
| Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs) | Donelan, Captain A. | Haworth, Arthur A. |
| Hayden, John Patrick | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) |
| Hazel, Dr. A. E. | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Rainy, A. Holland |
| Hazleton, Richard | M'Micking, Major G. | Raphael, Herbert H. |
| Hedges, A. Paget | Mallet, Charles E. | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Manfield, Harry (Northants.) | Reddy, M. |
| Henderson,J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Markham, Arthur Basil | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon.,S.) | Marks,G. Groydon(Launceston) | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Marnham, F. J. | Rees, J. D. |
| Higham, John Sharp | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Rendall, Athlestan |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | Massie, J. | Renton, Major Leslie |
| Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Meagher, Michael | Richards, Thomas(W. Monm'th |
| Hodge, John | Meehan, Patrick A. | Richardson, A. |
| Hogan, Michael | Menzies, Walter | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Holden, E. Hopkinson | Micklem, Nathaniel | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Holland, Sir William Henry | Molteno, Percy Alport | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Hooper, A. G. | Mond, A | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee) |
| Hope,W. Bateman(Somerset,N. | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Robertson,SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd |
| Horniman, Emslie John | Montagu, E. S. | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Horridge, Thomas Gardner | Montgomery, H. H. | Robinson, S. |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Mooney, J. J. | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Hyde, Clarendon | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Roche, Augustine (Cork) |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Roche, John (Galway, East) |
| Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Morley, Rt. Hon. John | Rose, Charles Day |
| Jackson, R. S. | Morrell, Philip | Rowlands, J. |
| Jacoby, James Alfred | Morse, L. L. | Runciman, Walter |
| Jardine, Sir J. | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Murnaghan, George | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | Murphy, John | Scarisbrick, T. T. L. |
| Jones. David Brynmor(Swansea | Murray, James | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Myer, Horatio | Schwann, Chas. E. (Manchester) |
| Joyce, Michael | Napier, T. B. | Sears, J. E. |
| Kearley, Hudson E. | Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) | Seaverns, J. H. |
| Kekewich, Sir George | Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) | Seely, Major J. B. |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Nicholls, George | Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) |
| Kilbride, Denis | Nicholson, CharlesN(Doncaster | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B. |
| Kincaid-Smith, Captain | Nolan, Joseph | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Norman, Henry | Silcock, Thomas Ball |
| Kitson, Sir James | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Simon, John Allsebrook |
| Laidlaw, Robert | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John |
| Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) | Nuttall, Harry | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S. |
| Lambert, George | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Snowden, P. |
| Lamont, Norman | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Spicer, Albert |
| Lawson, Sir Wilfrid | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | O'Doherty, Philip | Stanley,Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) |
| Leese,Sir Joseph E. (Accrington | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Steadman, W. C. |
| Lehmann, R. C. | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Lever,A. Levy(Essex, Harwich) | O'Dowd, John | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) | O'Hare, Patrick | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Levy, Maurice | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) |
| Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | O'Malley, William | Stuart, James (Sunderland) |
| Lough, Thomas | O'Mara, James | Sullivan, Donal |
| Lundon, W. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | O'Shee, James John | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Partington, Oswald | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Lynch, H. B. | Paul, Herbert | Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury |
| Macdonald,J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs | Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Mackarness, Frederic C. | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester) | Thomas,Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S | Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye | Thomasson, Franklin |
| MacVeigh,Charles(Donegal, E.) | Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampt'n | Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset,E |
| M'Arthur, William | Phillips. J Wynford(Pembroke | Tomkinson, James |
| M'Callum, John M. | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Torrance, A. M. |
| M'Crae, George | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Toulmin, George |
| M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Pollard, Dr. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| M'Kean, John | Power, Patrick Joseph | Verney, F. W. |
| M'Kenna, Reginald | Price,C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Villiers, Ernest Amherst |
| M'Killop, W. | Price. Robert John(Norfolk, E.) | Vivian, Henry |
| Walker, H. De. R. (Leicester) | Weir, James Galloway | Wills, Arthur Walters |
| Wallace, Robert | White, George (Norfolk) | Wilson, Hon. C. H. W. (Hull, W.) |
| Walters, John Tudor | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N. |
| Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) | Winfrey, R. |
| Ward, W. Dudley (South'mpt'n | Whitehead, Rowland | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | Woodhouse, SirJ. T.(Hudd'rsfi'd |
| Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer | Young, Samuel |
| Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney) | Wiles, Thomas | |
| Waterlow, D. S. | Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthen | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Watt, H. Anderson | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. |
| Wedgwood, Josiah C. | Williamson, A. | A. Pease. |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Evans, Samuel T. | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Faber, George Denison (York) | Middlemore, J. Throgmorton |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Fardell, Sir T. George | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Fell, Arthur | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Ashley, W. W. | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Muntz, Sir Philip A. |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. | Fletcher, J. S. | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Forster, Henry William | Nield, Herbert |
| Balfour, RtHn. A. J. (CityLond.) | Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gill, A. H. | Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington) |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Glover, Thomas | Percy, Earl |
| Baring Hn. Guy (Winchester) | Haddock, George R. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashford | Radford, G. H. |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Harrison Broadley, Col. H. B. | Rawlinson, J. Frederick Peel |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Harwood, George | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Richards, T.F. (Wolverh'mpt'n |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Heaton, John Henniker | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Helmsley, Viscount | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Brace, William | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hervey,F. W. F. (BuryS. Edm'ds | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.) | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. | Hornby, Sir William Henry | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Houston, Robert Paterson | Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hutton, Alfred Eddison | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Cave, George | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Seddon, J. |
| Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W. | Jowett, F. W | Shackleton, David James |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Kelley, George D. | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E. | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W. | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. | Keswick, William | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc | King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull) | Starkey, John R. |
| Cleland, J. W. | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Summerbell, T. |
| Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham) | Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G(Oxf'd. Univ. |
| Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lee, ArthurH. (Hants., Fareham | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt. -Col. A.R. | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E. | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Turnour, Viscount |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Long. Rt Hn Walter(Dublin, S.) | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard |
| Crooks, William | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Davies, David(Montgomery Co. | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Walsh, Stephen |
| Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Ward, J. (Stoke-upon Trent) |
| Dixon, Sir Daniel | M'Calmont, Colonel James | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Dixon-Hartland, SirFred Dixon | M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh, W | Wardle, George J. |
| Doughty, Sir George | Magnus, Sir Philip | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- | Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Du Cros, Harvey | Marks, H. H. (Kent) | Williams, Col R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Duncan,C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan | Masterman, C E G. | Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E. R.) |
| Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir |
| Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm | Younger, George | Alexander Acland-Hood |
| Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart | Yoxall, James Henry | and Viscount Valentia. |
§
Amendment made—
By adding, after the words last added, the words '(6) Where an order is made under this section allowing a school to continue as a State-aided school, the Board of Education may, notwithstanding anything in this Act, pay to that school, although it is not a school provided by the local education authority, the Parliamentary grants which would be payable in respect of the school or the scholars in the school if it was a school so provided, so long as all other statutory conditions affecting the payment of grants, so far as applicable to the school, are complied with in the case of the school.'"—(Mr. Birrell.)
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 444; Noes, 118. (Division List No. 164.)
| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork. N.E.) | Benn,W. (T'W'rHamlets, S. Geo. | Cairns, Thomas |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Bennett, E. N. | Carr-Gomm, H. W. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Berridge, T. H. D. | Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight |
| Adkins, W. Ryland | Bertram, Julius | Cawley, Frederick |
| Agnew, George William | Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford | Chance, Frederick William |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Channing, Francis Allston |
| Alden, Percy | Billson, Alfred | Cheetham, John Frederick |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire) | Churchill, Winston Spencer |
| Ambrose, Robert | Boland, John | Clancy, John Joseph |
| Armitage, R. | Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Clarke, C. Goddard |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Cleland, J. W. |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Brace, William | Clough, W. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Bramsdon, T. A. | Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.) |
| Astbury, John Meir | Branch, James | Cobbold, Felix Thornley |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Brigg, John | Cogan, Denis J. |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Bright, J. A. | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E. | Brocklehurst, W. D. | Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W. |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Brodie, H. C. | Condon, Thomas Joseph |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Brooke, Stopford | Cooper, G. J. |
| Barlow, John Emmott (Somers't | Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh) | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Brunner, Sir John T. (Cheshire) | Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstd |
| Barnard, E. B. | Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeen) | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |
| Barnes, G. N. | Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs) | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Cowan, W. H. |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Crean, Eugene |
| Beale, W. P. | Burke, E. Haviland- | Cremer, William Randal |
| Beauchamp, E. | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Crombie, John William |
| Beaumont, Hubert (Eastbourne | Burnyeat, J. D. W. | Crooks, William |
| Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Crosfield, A. H. |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Chas. | Cross, Alexander |
| Benn, John Williams (Devonp'rt | Byles, William Pollard | Crossley, William J. |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co. | Harwood, George | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Mackarness, Frederic C. |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Maclean, Donald |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Haworth, Arthur A. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hayden, John Patrick | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Delany, William | Hazel, Dr. A. E. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. |
| Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway | Hazleton, Richard | MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.) |
| Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Hedges, A. Paget | M'Arthur, William |
| Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N. | Helme, Norval Watson | M'Callum, John M. |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | M'Crae, George |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W) | M'Hugh, Patrick A. |
| Dillon, John | Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon. S.) | M'Kean, John |
| Dobson, Thomas W. | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | M'Kenna, Reginald |
| Dodd, W. H. | Higham, John Sharp | M'Killop, W. |
| Dolan, Charles Joseph | Hobart, Sir Robert | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) |
| Duckworth, James | Hodge, John | M'Micking, Major G. |
| Duffy, William J. | Hogan, Michael | Mallett, Charles E. |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Holden, E. Hopkinson | Manfield, Harry (Northants) |
| Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Holland, Sir William Henry | Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) |
| Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Hooper, A. G. | Markham, Arthur Basil |
| Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall | Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N. | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) |
| Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) | Horniman, Emslie John | Marnham, F. J. |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Horridge, Thomas Gardner | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) |
| Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Massie, J. |
| Erskine, David C. | Hutton, Alfred Eddison | Masterman, C. F. G. |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Hyde, Clarendon | Meagher, Michael |
| Evans, Samuel T. | Illingworth, Percy H. | Meehan, Patrick A. |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | Issaacs, Rufus Daniel | Menzies, Walter |
| Everett, R. Lacey | Jackson, R. S. | Micklem, Nathaniel |
| Faber, G. H. (Boston) | Jacoby, James Alfred | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Jardine, Sir J. | Mond, A. |
| Fenwick, Charles | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Ferens, T. R. | Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | Montagu, E. S. |
| Ffrench, Peter | Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea | Montgomery, H. H. |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Mooney, J. J. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Jowett, F. W. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) |
| Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter | Joyce, Michael | Morrell, Philip |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Kearley, Hudson E. | Morse, L. L. |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Kekewich, Sir George | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Fullerton, Hugh | Kelley, George D. | Murnaghan, George |
| Furness, Sir Christopher | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Murphy, John |
| Gibb, James (Harrow) | Kilbride, Denis | Murray, James |
| Gilhooly, James | Kincaid-Smith, Captain | Myer, Horatio |
| Gill, A. H. | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Napier, T. B. |
| Ginnell, L. | Kitson, Sir James | Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | Laidlaw, Robert | Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) |
| Glendinning, R. G. | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) | Nicholls, George |
| Glover, Thomas | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Lambert, George | Nolan, Joseph |
| Gooch, George Peabody | Lamont, Norman | Norman, Henry |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Greenwood, Hamar (York) | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Nuttall, Harry |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.) | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid |
| Grove, Archibald | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. |
| Gulland, John W. | Lever, W. H (Cheshire, Wirral) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Levy, Maurice | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Halpin, J. | Lewis, John Herbert | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Hammond, John | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis | Lough, Thomas | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Lundon, W. | O'Dowd, John |
| Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) | Lupton, Arnold | O'Hare, Patrick |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Harrington, Timothy | Lyell, Charles Henry | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N |
| Hart-Davies, T. | Lynch, H. B. | O'Malley, William |
| O'Mara, James | Russell, T. W. | Toulmin, George |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| O'Shee, James John | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | Verney, F. W. |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Villiers, Ernest Amherst |
| Partington, Oswald | Scarisbrick, T. T. L. | Vivian, Henry |
| Paul, Herbert | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) |
| Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) | Schwann, Chas. E. (Manchester) | Wallace, Robert |
| Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Sears, J. E. | Walsh, Stephen |
| Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester) | Seaverns, J. H. | Walters, John Tudor |
| Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) | Seddon, J. | Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) |
| Perks, Robert William | Seely, Major J. B. | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton | Shackleton, David James | Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent |
| Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton |
| Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) | Wardle, George J. |
| Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Pollard, Dr. | Silcock, Thomas Ball | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Simon, John Allsebrook | Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E. | Sloan, Thomas Henry | Watt, H. Anderson |
| Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Rainy, A. Rolland | Snowden, P. | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Raphael, Herbert H. | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | Soares, Ernest J. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Reddy, M. | Spicer, Albert | White, Patrick (Meath, North), |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Stanger, H. Y. | Whitehead, Rowland |
| Redmond, William (Clare) | Stanley, Hn. A Lyulph (Chesh. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Rees, J. D. | Steadman, W. C. | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Rendall, Athelstan | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Renton, Major Leslie | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th | Strachey, Sir Edward | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Richardson, A. | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Rickett, J. Compton | Stuart, James (Sunderland) | Williamson, A. |
| Ridsdale, E. A. | Sullivan, Donal | Wills, Arthur Walters |
| Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Summerbell, T. | Wilson, Hon. C. H. W. (Hull, W.) |
| Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Sutherland, J. E. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) |
| Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'd | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Winfrey, R. |
| Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Robinson, S. | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) | Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd |
| Robson, Sir William Snowdon | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. | Young, Samuel |
| Roche, Augustine (Cork) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Roche, John (Galway, East) | Thomasson, Franklin | |
| Rose, Charles Day | Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Rowlands, J. | Tomkinson, James | Whiteley and Mr. J. A. |
| Runciman, Walter | Torrance, A. M. | Pease. |
| NOES. | ||
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Bowles, G. Stewart | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E. |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Boyle, Sir Edward | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Bridgeman, W. Clive | Courthope, G. Loyd |
| Ashley, W. W. | Burdett-Coutts, W. | Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.) |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. | Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. | Craik, Sir Henry |
| Balcarres, Lord | Carlile, E. Hildred | Dalrymple, Viscount |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond | Castlereagh, Viscount | Dixon, Sir Daniel |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Cave, George | Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Rt Hn. Victor C. W. | Doughty, Sir George |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Du Cros, Harvey |
| Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester | Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn, J. (Birm. | Faber, George Denison (York) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wor | Fardell, Sir T. George |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham) | Fell, Arthur |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S) | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Fletcher, J. S. | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Forster, Henry William | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J. |
| Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) | M'Calmont, Colonel James | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W. | Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton |
| Haddock, George R. | Magnus, Sir Philip | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Hardy, Laurence(Kent Ashford | Marks, H. H (Kent) | Starkey, John R. |
| Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Talbot Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'dUniv. |
| Hay, Hon. Claude George | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Heaton, John Henniker | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Helmsley, Viscount | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Turnour, Viscount |
| Hervey, F.W.F.(Bury S. Edm'ds | Morpeth, Viscount | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard |
| Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) | Muntz, Sir Philip A. | Walker, Col. W.H.(Lancashire |
| Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh. | Nicholson, Wm. G.(Petersfield) | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Hornby, Sir William Henry | Nield, Herbert | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.) |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W. | Percy, Earl | Wilson. A. Stanley(York, E.R.) |
| Keswick, William | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull) | Rawlinson, John Frederick P. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Lane-Fox, G. R. | Remnant, James Farquharson | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) | Ropnor, Colonel Sir Robert | |
| Lee, Arthur H.(Hants., Fareham | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir |
| Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. AR. | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) | Alexander Acland-Hood and |
| Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) | Viscount Valentia. |
§
Amendment proposed—
After the words last added, to add the words '(7) No child shall be reckoned, for the purposes of this section, as a child attending a school unless the child has attended the school with due regularity for at least six months in accordance with the code of minutes of the Board of Education for the time being in force in respect to public elementary schools, and if any question arises whether a child is a child attending a school for the purposes of this section that question shall be decided by the Board of Education.'"—(Mr. Birrell.)
§ Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
1067§ Question put, "That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
1068§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 415; Noes, 138. (Division List No. 165.)
1073| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E) | Billson, Alfred | Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew, W. |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Cobbold, Felix Thornley |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Boland, John | Cogan, Denis J. |
| Adkins, W. Ryland | Bolton, T.D.(Derybshire, N.E.) | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) |
| Agnew, George William | Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Condon, Thomas Joseph |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Brace, William | Cooper, G. J. |
| Alden, Percy | Bramsdon, T. A. | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Branch, James | Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, EGrinst'd |
| Armitage, R. | Brigg, John | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Brocklehurst, W. D. | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Brodie, H. C. | Cowan, W. H. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Brooke, Stopford | Crean, Eugene |
| Astbury, John Meir | Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh) | Cremer, William Randal |
| Atherley Jones, L. | Brunner, Sir John T. (Cheshire) | Crombie, John William |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen | Crooks, William |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E. | Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs) | Crosfield, A. H. |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Cross, Alexander |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Crossley, William J. |
| Barlow, John Emmott(Somerset | Burke, E. Haviland | Davies, David (Montgomery Co |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) |
| Barnes, G. N. | Burnyeat, J. D. W. | Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan) |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Buxton, Rt. Hn. Syndey Charles | Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S. |
| Beale, W. P. | Byles, William Pollard | Delany, William |
| Beauchamp, E. | Cairns, Thomas | Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galwy |
| Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) |
| Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) | Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight | Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Cawley, Frederick | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. |
| Benn, John Williams(Devonp'rt | Chance, Frederick William | Dillon, John |
| Benn, W (T'w'rHamlets,S. Geo. | Cheetham, John Frederick | Dobson, Thomas W. |
| Bennett, E. N. | Cherry, Rt Hon. R. R. | Dodd, W. H. |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Churchill, Winston Spencer | Dolan, Charles Joseph |
| Bertram, Julius | Clancy, John Joseph | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Bethell, J. H.(Essex, Romford) | Clarke, C. Goddard | Duckworth, James |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Cleland, J. W. | Duffy, William J. |
| Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness | Jackson, R. S. | Morse, L. L. |
| Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Jacoby, James Alfred | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Jardine, Sir J. | Murnaghan, George |
| Dunne, Major EMartin(Walsall | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Murphy, John |
| Edwards, Clemeat (Denbigh) | Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | Murray, James |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea | Myer, Horatio |
| Ellis, Et. Hon. John Edward | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Napier, T. B. |
| Erskine, David C. | Jones, William(Carnarvonshire) | Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw |
| Esmnonde, Sir Thomas | Jowett, F. W. | Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) |
| Evans, Samuel T. | Joyce, Michael | Nicholls, George |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | Kearley, Hudson E. | Nicholson, Charles N(Doncast'r |
| Everett, R. Lacey | Kekewich, Sir George | Nolan, Joseph |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Kelley, George D. | Norman, Henry |
| Fenwick, Charles | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Ferens, T. R. | Kilbride, Denis | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Ffrench, Peter | Kincaid-Smith, Captain | Nuttall, Harry |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Kitson, Sir James | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Laidlaw, Robert | O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W |
| Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Lambert, George | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Fullerton, Hugh | Lamont, Norman | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) |
| Furness, Sir Christopher | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Gilhooly, James | Layland-Barratt, Francis | O'Dowd, John |
| Gill, A. H. | Leese, Sir Joseph F(Accrington) | O'Hare, Patrick |
| Ginnell, L. | Lehmann, R. C. | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn HerbertJohn | Lever, A.Levy (Essex, Harwich | O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N |
| Glover, Thomas | Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral) | O'Malley, William |
| Gooch, George Peabody | Lewis, John Herbert | O'Mara, James |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | O Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Greenwood, Hamar (York) | Lough, Thomas | O'Shee, James John |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Lundon, W. | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Lyell, Charles Henry | Partington, Oswald |
| Grove, Archibald | Lynch, H. B. | Paul, Herbert |
| Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Gulland, John W. | Macdonald, J.M (Falkirk B'ghs | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Mackarness, Frederic C. | Pearson, Sir W. D.(Colchester) |
| Halpin, J. | Maclean, Donald | Pearson, W. H. M.(Suffolk, Eye) |
| Hammond, John | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S | Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal, E. | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke |
| Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcs'r | M'Arthur, William | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Harmsworth, R.L(Caithn'ssh | M'Callum, John M. | Pollard, Dr. |
| Harrington, Timothy | M'Crae, George | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Hart-Davies, T. | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Price. C.E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | M'Kean, John | Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E. |
| Harwood, George | M'Kenna, Reginald | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | M'Killop, W. | Priestley, W.E.B(Bradford, E. |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Rainy, A. Rolland |
| Hayden, John Patrick | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Raphael, Herbert H. |
| Hazleton, Richard | M'Micking, Major G. | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) |
| Hedges, A. Paget | Mallet, Charles E. | Reddy, M. |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Manfield, Harry (Northants) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Markham, Arthur Basil | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.) | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) | Rees, J. D. |
| Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon. S.) | Marnham, F. J. | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Renton, Major Leslie |
| Higham, John Sharp | Massie, J. | Richards, Thomas(W. Monm'th |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | Masterman, C. F. G. | Richards, T.F.(Wolverhampt'n |
| Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Meagher, Michael | Richardson, A. |
| Hodge, John | Meehan, Patrick A. | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Hogan, Michael | Menzies, Walter | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Holden, E. Hopkinson | Micklem, Nathaniel | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Hooper, A. G. | Molteno, Percy Alport | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N | Mond, A. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Horniman, Emslie John | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee |
| Horridge, Thomas Gardner | Montagu, E. S. | Robertson, Sir G Scott (Bradford |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Montgomery, H. H. | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Hyde, Clarendon | Mooney, J. J. | Robinson, S. |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Morrell, Philip | Roche, Augustine (Cork) |
| Roche, John (Galway, East) | Straus, B. S. (Mile End.) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney- |
| Rose, Charles Day | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Rowlands, J. | Stuart, James (Sunderland) | Watt, H. Anderson |
| Runciman, Walter | Sullivan, Donal | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Russell, T. W. | Summerbell, T. | Weir, James Galloway |
| Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | Sutherland, J. E. | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Scarisbrick, T. T. L. | Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe) | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) | Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Schwann, Chas. E.(Manchester | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) | Whitehead, Rowland |
| Sears, J. E. | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) | Whitley, J.H. (Halifax) |
| Seaverns, J. H. | Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Seddon, J. | Thomasson, Franklin | Wiles, Thomas |
| Seely, Major J. B. | Thompson, J.W.H(Somerset, E. | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Shackleton, David James | Tomkinson, James | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) | Torrance, A. M. | Williams, Llewellyn(Carm'rth'a |
| Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) | Toulmin, George | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Shipman, Dr. John G. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Williamson, A- |
| Silcock, Thomas Ball | Verney, F. W. | Wills, Arthur Walters |
| Simon, John Allsebrook | Villiers, Ernest Amherst | Wilson, Hn. C.H. W. (Hull, W.) |
| Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | Vivian, Henry | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) | Wilson, J.W(Worcestersh. N.) |
| Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S. | Wallace, Robert | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Snowdon, P. | Walsh, Stephen | Winfrey, R. |
| Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Walters, John Tudor | Wood, T. M' Kinnon |
| Soares, Ernest J. | Walton, Sir John L.(Leeds, S.) | Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf' d |
| Spicer, Albert | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) | Young, Samuel |
| Stanger, H. Y. | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent | |
| Stanley, Hn. A Lyulph (Chesh) | Ward, W. Dudley (S'thampton | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Wardle, George J. | Whiteley and Mr. J. A. |
| Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. | Pease. |
| Strachey, Sir Edward | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan | |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, Charles P.(Stroud) | Clough, W. | Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham | Hornby, Sir William Henry |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E | Houston, Robert Paterson |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Hutton, Alfred Eddison |
| Ashley, W. W. | Cory, Clifford John | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. | Courthope, G. Loyd | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W |
| Balcarres, Lord | Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.) | Keswick, William |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J(CityLond. | Craik, Sir Henry | King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey | Dalrymple, Viscount | Lane-Fox, G. R. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Dixon, Sir Daniel | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid |
| Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester) | Dixon-Hart land, Sir Fred Dixon | Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E. |
| Barnard, E. B. | Doughty, Sir George | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Levy, Maurice |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Du Cros, Harvey | Lockwoo,. Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan | Long, Col, Charles W(Evesham |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Faber, George Denison (York) | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S) |
| Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire | Fardell, Sir T. George | Lowe, Sir Francis William |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Fell, Arthur | Lupton, Arnold |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Fletcher, J. S. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Forster, Henry William | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Gibb, James (Harrow) | M'Calmont, Colonel James |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W. |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Glendinning, R. G. | Magnus, Sir Philip |
| Gastlereagh, Viscount | Haddock, George R. | Mansfield, H. Rendall(Lincoln). |
| Cave, George | Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd | Marks, H. H. (Kent) |
| Cavendish, Rt, Hn. Victor C. W. | Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. | Mason, James F. (Windsor) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Middlemore, John Throgmorton |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Heaton, John Henniker | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. | Helmsley, Viscount | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A(Worc. | Hervey, F.W.F(Bury S. Edm'ds | Muntz, Sir Philip A. |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
| Nield, Herbert | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E.R.) |
| Percy, Earl | Sloan, Thomas Henry | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Perks, Robert William | Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Starkey, John R. | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Radford, G. H. | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G(Oxf'd Univ. | Younger, George |
| Rawlinson, John Frederick P. | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Remnant, James Farquharson | Thornton, Percy M. | |
| Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert | Turnour, Viscount | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir |
| Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard | Alexander Acland-Hood |
| Rutherford, John (Lancashire) | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) | and Viscount Valentia. |
| Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) | Walrond, Hon. Lionel | |
| Salter, Arthur Clavell | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
§ Clause 5—
§
Amendment made—
In page 4, line 3, by leaving out the words 'take over' and inserting the words 'make an arrangement for the transfer to them, or the use by them, of the schoolhouse of.' "—(Mr. Birrell.)
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 4, line 8, at the end, to add the words 'but nothing in this section shall be
§
construed so as to apply the provisions of this Act allowing an appeal to the Board of Education in cases where a local education authority refuse to make an arrangement as respects the use of the schoolhouse of an existing voluntary school.'"—(Mr. Birrell.)
§ Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 352; Noes, 182. (Division List, No. 166.)
1079| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Billson, Alfred | Cleland, J.W. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine. | Clough, W. |
| Adkins, W. Ryland | Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire | Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew, W.) |
| Agnew, George William. | Bolton.T. D. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Cobbold, Felix Thornley |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Boulton, A C. F. (Ramsey) | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) |
| Alden, Percy | Brace, William | Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras, W |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Bramsdon, T. A. | Cooper, G. J. |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Branch, James | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) |
| Armitage, R. | Brigg, John | Corbett, C.H. (Sussex, E Grinst'd |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Brocklehurst, W. D. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Brodie, H. C. | Cory, Clifford John |
| Asquith, Rt. Ha. Herbert Henry | Brooke, Stopford | Cowan, W. H. |
| Astbury, John Meir | Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh) | Cremer, William Randal |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen | Crombie, John William |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Bryce, J. A.(Inverness Burghs) | Crooks, William |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Cross, Alexander |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | C'rossley, William J. |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Davies, David(Montgomery Co. |
| Barlow, John Emmott(Somerset | Burnyeat, J. D. W. | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Burt Rt. Hon. Thomas | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) |
| Barnard, E. B. | Buxton, Rt. Hon Sydney Charles | Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |
| Barnes, G. N. | Byles, William Pollard | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Cairns, Thomas | Dickinson.W. H. (St. Pancras, N. |
| Beale, W. P. | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. |
| Beauchamp, E. | Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) | Cawley, Frederick | Dobson, Thomas W. |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Chance, Frederick William | Dodd, W. H. |
| Benn, John Williams(Devonp'rt | Channing, Francis Allston | Duckworth, James |
| Bennett, E. N. | Cheetham, John Frederick | Duffy, William J. |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Farness) |
| Bertram, Julius | Churchill, Winston Spencer | Duncan, J. H. (York, Otloy) |
| Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford) | Clarke, C. Goddard | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) |
| Dunne, Major. E. Martin(Walsall | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) |
| Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) | Kitson, Sir James | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Laidlaw, Robert | Pollard, Dr. |
| Ellis, Bt. Hon. John Edward | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster | Price, C.E.(Edinburgh, Central) |
| Erskine, David C. | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.) |
| Evans, Samuel T. | Lambert, George | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | Lamont, Norman | Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E. |
| Everett, R. Lacey | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid | Rainy, A. Holland |
| Faber, G. H. (Boston) | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Raphael, Herbert H. |
| Fenwick, Charles | Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) |
| Ferens, T. R. | Lehmann, R. C. | Rees, J. D. |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | Lever, A Levy(Essex, Harwich) | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter | Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirra) | Renton, Major Leslie |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Levy, Maurice | Richards, Thomas W. Monm'th |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Lewis, John Herbert | Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n |
| Fullerton, Hugh | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Richardson, A. |
| Furness, Sir Christopher | Lough, Thomas | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Gibb, James (Harrow) | Lupton, Arnold | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Gill, A. H. | Luttreill, Hugh Fownes | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | Lyell, Charles Henry | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Glendinning, R. G. | Lynch, H. B. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) |
| Glover, Thomas | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. Dundee |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Macdonald, J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs | Robertson, Sir G. Scctt(Bradf'rd |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Mackarness, Frederic C. | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Greenwood, Hamar (York) | Maclean, Donald | Robinson, S. |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | M'Arthur, William | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | M'Callum, John M. | Rose, Charles Day |
| Grove, Archibald | M'Crae, George | Rowlands, J. |
| Gulland, John W. | M'Kenna, Reginald | Runciman, Walter |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | M'Micking, Major G. | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) |
| Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.) | Mallet, Charles E. | Schwann, Chas. E. (Manchester) |
| Harmsworth, R L(Caithn'ss-sh | Manfield, Harry (Northants) | Sears, J. E. |
| Hart-Davies, T. | Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) | Seaverns, J. H. |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Markham. Arthur Basil | Seely, Major J. B. |
| Harwood, George | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) | Shackleton, David James |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Marnham, F. J. | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. (Hawick, B.) |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Massie, J. | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Menzies, Walter | Silcock, Thomas Ball |
| Hedges, A. Paget | Micklem, Nathaniel | Simon, John Allsebrook |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Molteno, Percy Alport | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Mond, A. | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W. | Money, L, G. Chiozza | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S. | Montagu, E. S. | Snowden, P. |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Montgomery, H. H. | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Higham, John Sharp | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen | Spicer, Albert |
| Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Morrell, Philip | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Holden, E. Hopkinson | Morse, L. L. | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) |
| Hooper, A. G. | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N | Murray, James | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| Horniman, Emslie John | Myer, Horatio | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Horridge, Thomas Gardner | Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) |
| Hutton, Alfred Eddison | Nicholls, George | Stuart, James (Sutherland) |
| Hyde, Clarendon | Nicholson, Charles N.(Doncast'r | Summerbell, T. |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Nussey, Thomas William | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Jackson, R, S. | Nuttall, Harry | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Jacoby, James Alfred | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Jardine, Sir J. | Parker, James (Halifax) | Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury |
| Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Partington, Oswald | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | Paul, Herbert | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Jones, David Brynmor (Swanse | Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) | Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.) |
| Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester) | Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E |
| Jowett, F. W. | Pearson.W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) | Tomkinson, James |
| Kearley, Hudson E. | Perks, Robert William | Torrance, A. M. |
| Kelley, George D. | Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton) | Toulmin, George |
| Kincaid-Smith, Captain | Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Verney, F. W. | Waterlow, D. S. | Williamson, A. |
| Villiers, Ernest Amherst | Watt, H. Anderson | Wills, Arthur Walters |
| Vivian, Henry | Wedgwood, Josiah C. | Wilson, Hon. C.H.W.(Hull, W.) |
| Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) | Weir, James Galloway | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Wallace, Robert | White, George (Norfolk) | Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.) |
| Walsh, Stephen | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Walters, John Tudor | White, L'uke (York, E.R.) | Winfrey, R. |
| Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) | Whitehead, Rowland | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | Woodhouse, Sir J. T(Hudd'rsfi'd |
| Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer | |
| Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton | Wiles, Thomas | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Wardle, George J. | Wilkie, Alexander | Whiteley and Mr. J. A. |
| Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) | Pease. |
| Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) | Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarth'n | |
| Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. |
| Ambrose, Robert | Du Cros, Harvey | MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E. |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan | M'Calmont, Colonel James |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Esmonde, Sir Thomas | M'Hugh, Patrick A. |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Faber, George Denison (York) | M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W. |
| Ashley, W. W. | Fardell, Sir T. George | M'Kean, John |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt Hon. Sir H. | Farrell, James Patrick | M'Killop, W. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Fell, Arthur | Magnus, Sir Philip |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn, A.J.(City Lond.) | Ffrench, Peter | Marks, H. H. (Kent) |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Mason, James F. (Windsor) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Masterman, C. F. G. |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Fletcher, J. S. | Meagher, Michael |
| Baring, Hon. Guy(Winchester) | Flynn, James Christopher | Meehan, Patrick A. |
| Barrie, H. T.(Londonderry, N.) | Forster, Henry William | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Gilhooly, James | Mooney, J. J. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Ginnell, L. | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Benn, W.(T'w'r Hamlets, S.Geo | Haddock, George R. | Muntz, Sir Philip A. |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Halpin, J. | Murnaghan, George |
| Boland, John | Hammond, John | Murphy, John |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Harrington, Timothy | Nield, Herbert |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. | Nolan, Joseph |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hay, Hon. Claude George | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Hazleton, Richard | O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. | Heaton, John Henniker | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Helmsley, Viscount | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hervey, F.W.F(Bury S. Edm'ds | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Cave, George | Hill, Sir Clement(Shrewsbury) | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W. | Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.) | O'Dowd, John |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hogan, Michael | O'Hare, Patrick |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Hornby, Sir William Henry | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Houston, Robert Paterson | O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J.(Birm. | Joyce, Michael | O'Malley, William |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A(Worc. | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H | O'Mara, James |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col W. | O'Shee, James John |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Keswick, William | Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Kilbride, Denis | Percy, Earl |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull) | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Craig, Captain James(Down, E.) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Crean, Eugene | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Reddy, M. |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham | Redmond John E.(Waterford) |
| Delany, William | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R, | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galway | Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham | Remnant, James Farquhar son |
| Dillon, John | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S | Roche, Augustine (Cork) |
| Dixon, Sir Daniel | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Roche, John (Galway, East) |
| Dolan, Charles Joseph | Lundon, W. | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter |
| Doughty, Sir George | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Russell, T. W. |
| Rutherford, John (Lancashire) | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) |
| Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) | Thomson, W Mitchell-(Lanark) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Salter, Arthur Clavell | Thornton, Percy M. | Wortley, Rt Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Turnour, Viscount | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E.Howard | Young, Samuel |
| Seddon, J. | Walrond, Hon. Lionel | Younger, George |
| Smith, F.E. (Liverpool, Walton | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) | |
| Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir |
| Starkey, John R. | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) | Alexander Acland-Hood |
| Sullivan, Donal | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord | and Viscount Valentia. |
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Whereupon the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
§ Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.