HC Deb 10 July 1906 vol 160 cc741-849

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]

Clause 10:—

SIR WILLIAM ANSON (Oxford University)

moved the omission of subsection (1), in order to allow the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Education to make an addition to the clause by the insertion therein of the names of the Commissioners.

Amendment proposed— To omit sub-section (1)."—(Sir William Anson.)

Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. BIRRELL,) Bristol, N.

said this matter had escaped his attention. He was perfectly willing that the names should be inserted in the clause. He had not got all the titles of the Commissioners with him, so perhaps he might be allowed to move the insertion of the names, and add the dignities on Report.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— To leave out the words 'three Commissioners to be appointed by his Majesty' and to insert the words ' The Right Hon. Sir Arthur Wilson, K.C.I.E., Sir Hugh Owen, G.C.B., and Mr. Woreley-Taylor,'K.C.'"— (Mr. Birrell.)

Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause"— put, and negatived.

Words inserted.

LORD BALCARRES (Lancashire, Chorley)

next moved the omission of sub-section (3). He wished to know what estimate had been made of the expenses of the Commission and where the money was to come from. He brought forward his Motion in order to hear the opinion of the Government upon the matter. The noble Lord also wished to know whether a sub-commission would be appointed.

Amendment proposed— In page 6, line 14, to leave out' sub-section (3).' "—(Lord Balcarres.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

MR. BIRRELL

said it was, he believed, the intention of the Government that the remuneration of the Commissioners should come out of the million of money to be provided under Clause 12. The Resolution before the House was formulated in that way. The remuneration of the Commissioners would be settled as soon as an arrangement had boon made with these gentlemen, and he dared say the amount would be determined by the number of sittings they held, or something of that kind. That was the only answer he could give at the present time. With regard to the appointment of sub-commissioners, the Government did not contemplate taking such a step.

LORD BALCARRES

said that as Clause 12 stood in the Bill the million of money was to be distributed among the local education authorities, and unless the right hon. Gentleman meant that the three Commissioners were to be paid by the local authorities his arguments fell to the-ground. They had had a specific declaration from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that this million was not to be provided during the present financial year, and therefore there would be a gap during which the Commissioners would be engaged and it would be impossible to pay them the money owed them by the State. He thought they required some elucidation of the point; he did not know whether the right hon. Gentleman would give it them at the present time?

MR. BIRRELL

said he had already answered the Question according, he believed, to the view taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the matter.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR (City of London)

said that if those were the views of the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the matter it was evident the right hon. Gentleman had not read the Bill, or he would have realised that some change was necessary in Clause 12. He thought he could say what had happened without much difficulty. There had been a conversation between the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Education and the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The former had seen that it was impossible to get any more than a million pounds, and so the matter had been left there. He, however, contended that it could not be left there, and it was not sufficient that they should alter Clause 12; in fact Clause 12 should be left as it was as far as the present point was concerned, but a new section would have to be introduced specifically stating that these gentlemen were to receive remuneration by statute.

MR. BIRRELL

said they were, up to the present, quite in order. The Resolution provided for the million pounds and also for the remuneration of the Commissioners. If any inaccuracy had been committed it was by himself in saying that the remuneration of the Commission should come out of the million. It was provided that the remuneration of the Commissioners should come out of the public funds, and therefore it was not necessary to alter Clause 12. He would, he thought, be able to make clear to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that this remuneration would come from outside the million pounds.

LORD BALCARRES

pointed out that it was imperative that the monies to be provided for these gentlemen should be set out in the financial Estimates.

MR. BIRRELL

replied that it might be necessary to provide supplementary Estimates.

MR. STUART WORTLEY (Sheffield, Hallam)

asked whether it would not be necessary to have a supplementary Estimate for the remuneration of the Commission, on which the House might discuss its constitution.

MR. BIRRELL

That is most likely.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. ASHLEY (Lancashire, Blackpool)

moved an Amendment to subsection (5)— " To insert after the word ' Commissioners,' the words, ' each of them ' with the additional words ' subject to an appeal to the three Commissioners sitting together.'" He took it that the duties of the three Commissioners were to make inquiries into and examine trusts and then formulate schemes for the carrying on of the schools. The men who had to do this work must be men of high legal standing and men accustomed to the examination of witnesses, and under such circumstances the work to be done by these gentlemen could not be delegated to men in sub ordinate positions. Especially was this necessary in view of the fact that the court had power to inflict imprisonment for contempt of court. It seemed to him, however, that unless the clause was altered a great deal of the work of the Commission would have to be done by clerks. He was sure it was the desire of the Government that the Commissioners should decide each case upon its merits and to see that none received unjust treatment. There were 14,000 voluntary scoools in England and Wales, all of which, with the exception of 200 or300, were held under charitable trusts. Each one of these schools might come before the Commissioners—he did not say it was likely—but there was the possibility of their doing so. At any rate, lot them say that one in every ten would come before the Commission; that would mean that the Commissioners would have to make 1,400 schemes for that number of schools. Let them see what time the Commissioners had got. They were allowed two years under the Bill, so that they would have to dispose of these 1,400 schemes in two years. If they worked every day in the week, which they would not wish to do, they would have to make two schemes each day. The Commissioners, however, could not be expected to do that; they would want holidays, and, therefore, if they reckoned on 170 or 180 working days in the year it would then mean that they would have to make four schemes in one day. He asked the Committee to consider, under these circumstances, whether the Commissioners would be able to give full and adequate consideration to each scheme. He did not think they would, and therefore, the object of his Amendment—which was a perfectly friendly one—was that these Commissioners should have the power to work alone and make schemes alone, with the right of appeal to them sitting together in cases where trustees were of opinion that they had been unjustly dealt with. He thought that some such Amendment was necessary in the interest of the good working of the Act.

Amendment proposod— In page 6, line 20, after 'word ' Commissioners' to insert the word 'each of them, subject to an appeal to the three Commissioners sitting together.' ''—(Mr. Ashley.i>)

Question proposed " That those words be there inserted."

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

asked the right hon. Gentleman, before answering on the Amendment, to give some estimate of the amount of work which these Commissioners would be required to carry out. His hon. friend had contended that the amount of work was so great that if the Commissioners had to sit together they would never get through their task in the time allowed by the Bill. He confessed his hon. friend's Amendment frightened him. He had every confidence in the three gentlemen appointed. He thought they were all judicial men with great knowledge, but he had, however, greater confidence in the judgment arrived at by the three sitting together than the judgment of only one of them, even if there were the right of appeal to the whole body. He should be sorry to see such an Amendment adopted. If his hon. friend's contention was right, and the Government were also of opinion that the Commissioners could not get through their duties in the time allotted, then some other machinery must be tried than that comprised in the Bill, but he hoped it would not be the same as that advocated by his hon. friend the mover of the Amendment.

MR. BIRRELL

said he fully appreciated the remarks of his right hon. friend and of the hon. Member for Blackpool. The Government had made very cautious inquiries, and the advice they had obtained did not enable them to form any estimate of the work these gentlemen would have to do. It would all depend upon temper, the manner in which the negotiations were carried out under Clause 2, upon the general feeling of the district with regard to the Bill, and upon other circumstances over which it would be impossible for anyone to cast more than a cautious eye. Therefore, although he felt pretty certain that in many parts of the country the labour of the Commissioners would be limited to work quite within their capacity, he would not like to say in answer to the straightforward question of the right hon. Gentleman that they had been able to form any estimate which would provide an adequate answer. It was of the utmost importance that the decisions of the Court should be uniform and command respect. He at first thought of meeting the difficulty by appointing assistant Commissioners to make preliminary inquiries and report to the Commission; but on consideration he had come to the conclusion that that course would not be necessary. He should like to have an opportunity of consulting the three Commissioners as to what their view might be upon the subject. But personally he thought that, though the cases might be numerous, a few months of the work would enable the three Commissioners sitting together to discover that the things which they had to decide fell on the same lines. They would have the same kind of problem to solve in the different cases brought before them. They would soon, get to know, and the local authorities and trustees would also get to know what they had to do. Therefore on the whole he thought the Committee had better stand by the clause as it was. He would, however, take the opportunity of consulting with the Commissioners and seeing what their notions of procedure might be. They would consider the suggestion about appointing sub-Commissioners to visit places, collect information, and transmit it to the Commissioners for the purpose of enabling them to form their judgment, but he was not at all sure that that would be a satisfactory way of proceeding. The parties could state their case in writing, or in any other way that might be necessary. He thought, therefore, that he would not accept the Amendment. He ought, perhaps, to mention what he overlooked on a former occasion, that Mr. Worsley-Taylor's acceptance of the position of one of the Commissioners was. conditional on the state of his health, but he had reason to hope that that. gentleman would find it possible to undertake the duties.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said he could quite understand that the right hon. Gentleman could not give the Committee precise information as to the amount of work likely to fall on the Commissioners. There were a certain number of privately owned schools which, under no circumstances, would come before the Commission. Then there were certain schools held on mixed trusts which, as they now understood, will also be exempt. Then again there were certain circumstances in which the trustees might choose to go to the Board of Education, and not to the Commissioners. It might therefore be impossible to say what was the probable number of schools whose cases might be brought before the Commissioners, but could they not be told what was the proportion of schools privately owned to trust schools?

MR. TALBOT (Oxford University)

asked whether the Commissioners would always sit in London or whether they would be encouraged to go to places in the country as might seem desirable. He thought a great deal of friction might be avoided if they took the latter course. It was difficult to put on paper all the local conditions which ought to be taken into consideration. He might further suggest that the work of the Commissioners would be easier if more favourable terms were given to voluntary schools in respect of religious instruction.

MR. BIRRELL

said that so far as moving about was concerned it was a matter which would be left in the hands of the Commissioners. They would determine the places of meeting, and it was not proposed to lay down any rule on the subject. He did not anticipate that their duty would necessarily require to be performed in the atmosphere of the place. As to the question asked by the hon. Baronet, he did not think that the maximum number of schools about which controversy would arise, and which could by any possibility come before the Commission would be found to be very large. It was difficult to estimate the number.

LORD BALCARRES

said his impression was that in every doubtful case the parties would go to the Commission. The Minister for Education had clearly stated that the Commissioners were to sit together and not to be separated. He thought that would make the appointment of sub-Commissioners necessary—not men with executive power, but men, for instance, like the inspectors of the Board of Education, who would make inquiries as to matters of fact and report the results to the Commission itself. The right hon. Gentleman apparently thought that the Commissioners need not breathe the atmosphere of the locality in order to determine the nature of the school. He dared say they need not, but he would remind the right hon. Gentleman that the question of their procedure and place of meeting was within the discretion of the Commission itself. It would be a great hardship to the owners or trustees of schools if they were required in every case of dispute between themselves and the local education authority-to come to London to lay their case before the Commissioners. There should be statutory power given to the Commissioners to appoint sub-Commissioners, but he did not see that they had such power under the clause as it stood. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consider before the Report stage whether the words of the clause were sufficiently broad to enable the Commissioners to appoint sub-Commissioners.

LORD MORPETH (Birmingham, S.)

said he considered it very important that the Commission should go round to the various localities. They were more likely to come to an amicable understanding if they met the trustees and the representatives of the local education authorities on the spot. It would often be very difficult to get trustees and county councillors to come to London, and, therefore, he urged the right hon. Gentleman to introduce a provision in the Bill requiring the Commissioners to go about the country. He regarded with some doubt the policy of having assistant Commissioners. He thought there would be greater safety in going before the Commissioners themselves. The persons who gave the decisions should be the persons who heard the evidence and saw the trustees. If assistant Commissioners heard the evidence it would be almost certain that the decisions of the Commissioners would be coloured by the reports received from them. He would have more confidence if the Commission went down and heard all the evidence and saw' the persons concerned.

MR. PAUL (Northampton)

asked whether there was any reason to suppose that the legal effect of the trusts could only be estimated in the atmosphere of the place concerned.

MR. ASHLEY

said the Amendment had not received the support which he should have expected, but none of the speakers had suggested a more workable plan whereby the schemes could be got through in a reasonable time. He asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn

LORD HELMSLEY (Yorkshire, N. R., Thirsk)

moved an Amendment providing that the right to continue in force, after December 31st, 1908, the powers of the Commission should be vested in Parliament instead of His Majesty by Order in Council as the clause proposed. He thought this was a matter of some importance. The question whether the exceptional powers conferred on these Commissioners should be continued or not was one which Parliament should have an opportunity of discussing. Why was part of reviewing the work of the Commission taken away from Parliament? It was just as well, he submitted, when the question of the continuance of the Star Chamber arose that Parliament should have an opportunity of discussing their action during the time they had held office. He would not suggest to the Committee what should be decided by Orders in Council; but he would say that Orders in Council were intended to deal with minor details of administration and not with the body expressly set up by Parliament to carry out these functions. If Parliament set the Commission up, Parliament ought to have a say as to whether their services should be continued or not. Then as to subsection (3), which provided that the remuneration of the Commissioners and all expenses of the Commis. sion incurred in the execution of this Act should be paid out of monies provided by Parliament, that seemed to him, in itself, a sufficient justification for the Amendment.

Amendment proposed— In page 6, line 27, to leave out the words ' His Majesty may by Order in Council,' and insert' Parliament may ' "—(Viscount Helmsley.)

Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. BIRRELL

said that if the noble Lord had had to search through the proceedings of the Star Chamber as often as he had had in the course of his historical crazes, he would have had a respect for it, at all events inasmuch as its proceedings were consistent with the principles of the Tory Party. The Star Chamber was a prerogative Court, which the proposed Commission was not. This Commission was created by the authority of Parliament and the term "Star Chamber" ought not to be applied to it at all.

LORD HELMSLEY

said he was glad to note from the remarks of the right hon. The Minister for Education that this Commission was not, to be a Star Chamber.

MR. BIRRELL

said that at all events this Commission was created by the authority of Parliament and therefore was not open to any of the objections urged against the machinery of the ancient tribunal of the Star Chamber. He really thought that when the noble Lord saw that Parliament, having created this Court, having assigned to it certain business, having been obliged to say what was the amount of business the Court would have to do, and not knowing how long it would take the Court to do that business, it was only reasonable and proper that some means should exist of prolonging its existence for three, six, or twelve months. Fortunately there was at hand a very rational means by Orders in Council of prolonging the existence of the jurisdiction which this House had set up. The only reason the Government inserted those words was that they wished to put an end to the Commission when it had done its work, adding a reasonable precaution for providing for its prolongation if its work-was not concluded by the date inserted.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said he himself was going to suggest that without this sub-section a new Act of Parliament would be required if the Court did not do its work within one year. His noble friend only said that this machinery of Orders in Council should not be resorted to until necessity arose, and it only became necessary because of the insertion of a time limit. They could not imagine that the gentlemen composing the Court would unduly drag on their proceedings. There was no power to hurry them; and no power to delay them when they had a specific and well-defined job before them. Why then, put a limit to their time? Parliament had brought them into being and they were an absolutely independent tribunal. When the Court had done its work it should be dissolved by a natural process.

LORD HELMSLEY

begged leave to withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question, " That Clause 9, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.

Clause 10.

LORD R. CECIL (Marylebone, E.)

moved to insert after the words " charitable trusts," the words, " solely of an educational character." He understood that the position of the Government was that only trusts of an educational character should be handed over, but there was nothing in Clause 10 which directed anybody to have any regard to the trusts on which the school-houses were held; and, therefore, the heal educational authority could take possession of schoolhouses which were held under a loose trust. He consequently ventured to suggest to the Government that some such words as he had moved should be inserted if they wished to confine the operation of the clause to the schools which they really had in view. There were a large number of schoolhouses which were held partly for educational and partly for religious purposes, and it might well be that very great hardship would be inflicted upon those who wished to use the schoolhouses for purposes other than educational. They might for a whole year or longer be deprived of the use of the schoolhouse because the local educational authority chose to demand the use of it without I considering the effect upon the other persons interested.

Amendment proposed— In page 6, line2, after the words 'charitable trusts, to insert the words ' solely of an educational character.' "—(Lord R. Cecil.)

Question proposed, " That these words be there inserted."

MR. BIRRELL

said that a difficulty might arise between the local education authority and the trustees when the premises were held in trust for school or Church or other purposes. But in that sense the trust could not be held as a trust solely for educational purposes. All that was wanted was that the school premises should be held by the local education authority until the dispute had been settled by the Commission. There could be no interference with the other part of the trust. It was obvious that if the premises were used as a school for five days in the week the educational trust excluded other parts of the trust, which only came into operation when the premises were vacated as a school. The educational trust excluded the other charitable trust only when the educational trust was in operation, and when the educational trust was finished the other trust came into possession of the school premises. They could not do two things at once, at the same time and in the same place. The local education authority could only require the use of the school premises when these had been always dedicated to educational purposes. Therefore any interference with other trusts could not by any possibility arise. It would give rise to doubt and possible dissension to alter the words, and he could not see that the Amendment would make any legal difference.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said that he understood the object of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Education in inserting this clause was to avoid the inconvenience which would arise from schools being closed under the, provisions contained in the earlier portions of the Bill in consequence of failure to come to an arrangement before the 1st January, 1908. If a local authority temporarily used a school as a public elementary school it was, it seemed to him, bound to observe the conditions upon which the school was run before. He confessed that as he understood the clause he did not think his noble friend need be anxious as to the precise character of the user of the school. The school would be used under the precise conditions of a voluntary school upon which it was used before the Bill came into operation. It might be necessary to insert words later in the clause to ensure that these conditions were maintained.

MR. BURDETT-COUTTS (Westminster)

inquired what the effect of the clause would be upon a school, which on the passing of this Bill had converted itself into a certified school. Would it be possible for the local education authority to come in, if the public elementary school accommodation was insufficient, and interrupt the whole arrangements and progress of the certified school and take it for the purposes of public elementary school education?

THE SOLICITOR - GENERAL (Sir W. ROBSON,) South Shields

said the contingency contemplated by the hon. Gentleman could scarcely arise. If an existing voluntary school was changed into a certified school there would be no deficiency of school accommodation in regard to the district it served. Then this clause would not come into operation at all. If, however, it changed its character and the class of its scholars, a deficiency might arise and then it would be proper that this clause should operate and that the local education authority should have power to say that the teachers and scholars who had previously occupied a place in our national system of education no longer did so and that a deficiency had been caused without an opportunity being given to them of making it good. The local authority had a right to say that they should have adequate and proper notice that the premises were not available for the purpose of enabling them to give proper accommodation. If the trustees chose to alter the character of their school so as to make a deficiency in school accommodation, of course the powers of the local authority would come into force.

LORD R. CECIL

thought that in his desire to be brief he had not made himself clear. The point was this. The only limiting words in this clause were that the local education authority were to have the power to acquire the school-house for the purpose of carrying on a public elementary school, and they could only judge what the use of that would be to the local education authority by supposing that it would be carried on as a public elementary school. If the trustees thought that the local education authority were going beyond their powers and were not carrying on the school for the purposes if a public elementary school, and if the trustees appealed to a Court, that Court would say that the local education authority must be the judge, and they could not interfere if the authority told them that their user was necessary for the purpose of carrying on a public elementary school. If the Committee looked at sub-section (2) of the clause they would see that it was provided that while a schoolhouse was used under the powers given by the section, the same conditions and provisions should apply as where an arrangement was made for the use of a schoolhouse, except that the local education authority should permit the religious instruction given in the school to be of the same character as that previously given and also permit the teachers in the school to give that instruction as part of their duties. That, as he understood, with other provisions of the Bill, gave the local education authority power to carry out during the year they were in possession any alterations or improvements that they thought necessary for the purpose of carrying on a public elementary school, and they might so change the character of the building as to make it useless except for that purpose. That was a danger which should be guarded against. He thought the owners were entitled to have some restriction put upon the local education authority to prevent them from using their powers so as to unfit the school for the purpose for which it had hitherto been used. At the end of the period it must be remembered that the local education authority might not take over the school and they might be even building meanwhile another school to take its place.

MR. BIRRELL

did not think the noble Lord could be accused of repeating himself, as in his second speech he had said many things which he did not say in his first. As to that second part, for himself he must say he could not conceive that the use of the schoolhouse for the purpose of an elementary school by the local education authority would be any greater than it was by the authority previously existing. The user would be the same as it had been up to the present. Then the noble Lord raised another point and said that the local authority, having got possession of the school under this section, would proceed to spend a great amount of money upon it, and then, having spent that money, would go out at the end of the year and leave the result of their expenditure behind them. Local authorities might be pig-headed in the opinion of certain misguided persons, but they were not likely to spend money on a schoolhouse and then give up the results of their expenditure.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

did not think that the point of his noble friend had been met. The right hon. Gentleman had drawn a picture of the local authority spending vast sums of money upon improving another person's property, while all the time they were building another school. He did not conceive that his noble friend was referring to such a far-fetched case as that, but the pulling down of a partition or anything of that sort might do a vast amount of damage to a school for the purposes for which it was being used. He thought, however, that his noble friend would see that the proper place to raise his Amendment was lower down in the clause, and he thought he should reserve it.

LORD R. CECIL

asked leave to withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. CAVE (Surrey, Kingston)

moved to omit from page 6, line 34, the words, " without payment " with a view of inserting later on, in line 38. the words " And such use shall be had during such period in such manner and upon such terms as to payment and otherwise as shall be agreed between the local education authority and the owners of the schoolhouse, or in default of agreement shall be determined by the Board of Education." He did not see why, if rent was to be payable under Clause 2, it should not also be payable for the temporary user of the schools allowed by this clause. The school was being taken compulsorily and for a public purpose, and he thought that payment should be made to the trustees. As the clause stood the local education authority could say that, unless the trustees accepted the terms offered under Clause 2, they (the authority) would, under Clause 10, take the school for twelve months for nothing. That did not seem to be a very fair position in which to place the owners of the schools. The effect of such a proceeding would be that the whole thing would be hung up for twelve months and nobody could know what might happen at the end of that time, while at the same time no public money would be given by the local authority to the trustees of the school to enable them to carry out their trust. It might be asked what the trustees were going to spend the money on. They would incur heavy legal expenses during the year, and have no funds out of which to pay these expenses; they ought therefore to have a payment from this source.

AN HON. MEMBER

Do they get payment now?

MR. CAVE

said they did not get payment now, but they had their own property for their own use, and so long as they had that, no payment was required. When the State took away a man's property for State purposes, up to the present the State had always paid for it, and so far as he knew this was the first time that that principle had not been followed. Again, in the question of repairs, there ought to be an opportunity for a stipulation on the part of the owners that the local authority should not do any unnecessary damage, but should, during the operation of this clause, keep the building in repair. All these things ought to be settled by a fair agreement between the owners and the local authority; or, failing such agreement, by the Board of Education. He did not think the right hon. Gentleman understood how harsh and unfair these provisions appeared to those interested in these schools. He did not contend against this clause if properly amended, because he quite saw that in view of the passing of Clause 1, there ought to be some interval allowed during which the local authority should be allowed to see that the school was carried on, but while that might be necessary, he thought there should be some concession made in this matter to the owners. He did not ask for payment in all cases; what he asked the Committee to do was to leave the matter in the hands of the Board of Education.

Amendment proposed— In page 6, line 34, to leave out the words ' without payment.' "—(Mr. Cave.)

Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause.

MR. BIRRELL

said he was bound to confess that the speech of his hon. and learned friend, one of the most fair-minded men in the House, filled him almost with despair. Whatever he might have thought of the other clauses in this Bill he did think that Clause 10 would appeal to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. The hon. and learned Gentleman said they were taking the trustees' property away. Why, they were maintaining and repairing it; they were taking upon themselves the whole expense in regard to it; they were relieving the trustees of all pecuniary liability in respect of it. They were not touching, altering, or affecting the religious instruction that was going on in the school—["Oh."]—no, not during this year. It would go on exactly as it was going on ow—the same teachers, the same denominational conditions, and therefore they were putting money into the pocket of the owners. And then the hon. and learned Gentleman, whose character he admitted, said—he did not actually use the word "robbing"—they were for the first time in English history taking away property without paying for it. They were paying for it. Running a school was not a profitable occupation, like running a public-house. It was a public purpose which they fulfilled. They had assumed every possible obligation with regard to these schools, and he really did not see what more they could have done. He thought this was as fair and reasonable a clause as it was possible to have framed. The hon. and learned Gentleman's contention that the owners ought to have the money in their pockets for trust purposes was absolutely unreasonable, and he thought this was not an Amendment that should be pressed.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said that if the policy of the Government was what the right hon. Gentleman had just said, he did not think the Amendment need be pressed. But let it be understood that that was their policy, and that if they could show that in any single respect the position of the schools was not the same as in the time when the teaching was under the control of the managers, then the Government were bound in honour to see that that was put straight. That being the understanding, he would suggest that they need not divide on the Amendment.

MR. BIRRELL

We will see what the understanding is when we come to the clause.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

asked what, then, came of the argument of the right hon. Gentleman? If the right hon. Gentleman would tell them now that, if they could show that under the clause as it was drafted there could be a modification of the manner in which the school had been carried on up to this peculiar and special year, he would do his best to accept Amendments which would put that straight, then he would advise the withdrawal of this Amendment. But if the right hon. Gentleman would not give that pledge, what became of his argument, of his passionate denunciation of his hon. and learned friend?

MR. BIRRELL

said he had not in his mind every particular Amendment that might be on the Paper. He was dealing with the financial position of the school, and he said that it would be better off financially under these conditions than it was before, and that, therefore, he did not quite see how any claim for the

payment of rent could be made. The clause was framed in a fair spirit so as to secure that the religious teaching in the school should not be affected during the period it was temporarily under the control of the local authority.

MR. CAVE

, having regard to the right hon. Gentleman's speech, asked leave to withdraw the Amendment. [MINISTERIAL cries of " No."]

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

Then we will divide.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 343; Noes, 98. (Division List No. 205.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Acland, Francis Dyke Buxton,Rt. Hn. SydneyCharles Dobson, Thomas W.
Adkins, W. Ryland Byles, William Pollard Dolan, Charles Joseph
Ainsworth, John Stirling Cameron, Robert Donelan, Captain A.
Alden, Percy Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Duffy, William J.
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Carr Gomm, H. W. Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness
Ambrose, Robert Causton,Rt.Hn. Richard Knight Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)
Armitage, R. Cawley, Frederick Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)
Ashton, Thomas Gair Chance, Frederick William Dunne,Major E.Martin(Walsall.
Astbury, John Meir Channing, Francis Allston Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Cheetham, John Frederick Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Edwards, Frank (Radnor)
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Churchill, Winston Spencer Elibank, Master of
Barker, John Clancy, John Joseph Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Clarke, C. Goddard Erskine, David C.
Barnard, E. B. Clough, W. Essex, R. W.
Barnes, G. N. Clynes, J. R. Everett, R. Lacey
Barran, Rowland Hirst Coats, SirT.Glen. (Renfrew,W.) Faber, G. H. (Boston)
Beale, W. P. Cobbold, Felix Thornley Fenwick, Charles
Beauchamp, E. Cogar., D

is J.

 Ferens, T. R.
Beaumont. W. C B. (Hexham) Collins, SirW.J.(St.Pancras,W. Field, William
Beck, A. Cecil Condon, Thomas Joseph Fiennes, Hon. Eustace
Bell, Richard Cooper, G. J. Flavin, Michael Joseph
Bellairs, Carlyon Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd Flynn, James Christopher
Benn,W.(T'w'rHamlets, S.Geo. Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter
Bertram. Julius Cotton, Sir H. J. S Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Bethell, T. R. (Essex Maldon) Cowan, W. H. Fuller, John Michael F.
Billson, Alfred Cox, Harold Fullerton, Hugh
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Craig, Herbert J.(Tynemouth) Gardner,Col.Alan (Hereford,S.)
Black,Arthur W.(Bedfordshire) Crean, Eugene Gibb, James (Harrow)
Blake, Edward Cremer, William Randal Gill, A. H.
Boland, John Crombie, John William Ginnell, L.
Brace, William Crosfield, A. H. Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbert John
Bramsdon, T. A. Crossley, William J. Glendinning, R. G.
Brigg, John Cullinan, J. Goddard, Daniel Ford
Bright, J. A. Dalziel, James Henry Gooch, George Peabody
Brocklehurst, W. D. Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)
Brooke, Stopford Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Greenwood, Hamar (York)
Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh) Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Griffith, Ellis J.
Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Grove, Archibald
Bryce, J. A. (InvernessBurghs) Delany, William Gulland, John W.
Burke, E. Haviland- Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Dewar, John A- (Inverness-sh. Hall, Frederick
Burnyeat, J. D. W. Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N. Halpin, J.
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis Micklem, Nathaniel Seaverns, J. H.
Hardie, J. Keir (MerthyrTydvil) Molteno, Percy Alport Seddon, J.
Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Money, L. G. Chiozza Seely, Major J. B.
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Montagu, E. S. Shackleton, David James
Harwood, George Montgomery, H. G Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Mooney, J. J. Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Hayden, John Patrick Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Silcock, Thomas Ball
Hazel, Dr. A. E. Morrell, Philip Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Hedges, A. Paget Murphy, John Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Helme, Norval Watson Murray, James Snowden, P.
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Napier, T. B. Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Henderson, J. M.(Aberdeen,W.) Nicholls, George Soares, Ernest J.
Henry, Charles S. Nicholson, Chas. N (Doncast'r) Spicer, Sir Albert
Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Nolan, Joseph Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Higham, John Sharp Norman, Henry Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Hobart, Sir Robert Norton, Capt. Cecil William Strachey, Sir Edward
Hogan, Michael O'Brien,Kendal(TipperaryMid) Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Holden, E. Hopkinson O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Holland, Sir William Henry O'Connor, James (Wicklow,W.) Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Hooper, A. G. O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Sullivan, Donal
Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Summerbell, T.
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Hutton, Alfred Eddison O'Hare, Patrick Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Illingworth, Percy H. O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Jacoby, James Alfred O'Malley, William Tennant.SirEdward (Salisbury)
Jardine, Sir J. O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Johnson, John (Gateshead) O'Shee, James John Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Parker, James (Halifax) Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Jones, Leif (Appleby) Paul, Herbert Thomasson, Franklin
Jones, William(Carnarvonshire) Paulton, James Mellor Thompson, J. W.H.(Somerset,E
Kearley, Hudson E. Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) Tomkinson, James
Kennedy, Vincent Paul Pearce, William (Limehouse) Torrance, Sir A. M.
Kilbride, Denis Perks, Robert William Toulmin, George
Kincaid-Smith, Captain Philipps.Col.Ivor (S'thampton) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
King,Alfred John (Knutsford) Philipps,J.Wynford(Pembroke) Ure. Alexander
Kitson, Sir James Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Verney, F. W.
Laidlaw, Robert Pickersgill, Edward Hare Villiers, Ernest Amherst
Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster Power, Patrick Joseph Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Lambert, George Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Cent.) Wallace, Robert
Lamont, Norman Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E. Walsh, Stephen
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Priestley, W. E.B.(Bradford,E.) Walters, John Tudor
Lea. Hugh Cecil (St Pancras.E.) Rainy, A. Holland Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Lever,A.Levy (Essex, Harwich Raphael, Herbert H. Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Ward,John (Stoke upon Trent)
Levy, Maurice Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro' Wardle, George J.
Lewis, John Herbert Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Lough, Thomas Redmond, William (Clare) Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Lundon, W. Rees, J. D. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Lupton, Arnold Rendall, Athelstan Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Lutterell, Hugh Fownes Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n Whitbread, Howard
Lyell, Charles Henry Richardson, A. White, George (Norfolk)
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Ricket, J. Compton White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Macdonald,J. M. (FalkirkB'ghs Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Maclean, Donald Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) White, Patrick (Meath, North
Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee Whitehead, Rowland
MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. Robertson,SirG.Scott (Brad f'rd Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
M'Callum, John M. Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
M'Crae, George Robinson, S. Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
M'Kenna, Reginald Robson, Sir William Snowdon Williams, Llewelyu(Carmarthen
M'Killop, W. Roche John (Galway, East) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Roe, Sir Thomas Wilson, J.W. (Worcestersh.N.)
M'Micking, Major G. Rogers, F. E. Newman Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Mallet, Charles E. Runciman, Walter Winfrey, R.
Manfield, Harry (Northants) Russell, T. W. Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Huddersf'd
Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Young, Samuel
Marnham, F. J. Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Yoxall, James Henry
Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Massie, J. Scarisbrick, T. T. L. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Masterman, C. F. G. Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Meagher, Michael Schwann,Sir C. E. (Manchester)
Menzies, Walter Sears, J. E.
NOES.
Acland-Hood,RtHn.SirAlex. F. Du Cros, Harvey Nield, Herbert
Anson, Sir William Reynell Duncan,Robert (Lanark,Govan Pease,Herbert Pike (Darlington
Anstruther-Gray, Major Fell, Arthur Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Arnold-Forster.Rt Hn.HughO. Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne
Ashley, W. W. Fletcher, J. S. Ratcliff, Major R. F.
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hn.Sir H. Forster, Henry William Rawlinson,JohnFrederickPeel
Balcarres, Lord Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) Roberts,S (Sheffield.Ecclesall)
Balfour,Rt Hn. A. J(City Lond.) Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Gordon,SirW.Evans-(T'rHam. Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Haddock, George R. Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Banner, John S. Harmood- Hamilton, Marquess of Saunderson, RtHn. Col. Edw. J.
Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester) Hardy,Laurence(Kent,Ashford Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone W.)
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N.) Hay, Hon. Claude George Smith, Abel H.(Hertford,East
Beach,Hn Michael Hugh Hicks Helmsley, Viscount Starkey, John R.
Bignold, Sir Arthur Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds Stone, Sir Benjamin
Brotherton, Edward Allen Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Burdett Coutts, W. Hornby, Sir William Henry Talbot, Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxf'dUniv
Butcher, Samuel Henry Hunt, Rowland Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark.
Carlile, E. Hildred Kennaway,Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Thornton, Percy M.
Carson, Rt Hon. Sir Edw. H. Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn.Col.W. Turnour, Viscount
Castlereagh, Viscount Lane-Fox, G. R. Valentia, Viscount
Cavendish,Rt.Hn. Victor C.W. Law, Andrew Bonar(Dulwich) Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lee, ArthurH. (Hants.,Fareham Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Liddell, Henry Warde, Col. C. E.(Kent, Mid)
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone,E.) Lockwood, Rt.Hn Lt.-Col.A.R. Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham Long, Col.CharlesW.(Evesham) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E. Lonsdale, John Brownlee Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Lowe, Sir Francis William Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) MacIver, David (Liverpool) Wyndham, Rt.Hn. George
Craig, CharlesCurtis(Antrim,S. Magnus, Sir Philip Younger, George
raig,Captain James(Down,E.) Mason, James F. (Windsor)
Craik, Sir Henry Mildmay, Francis Bingham TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Cave and Mr. Bridgeman.
Dixon-Hartland,Sir FredDixon Morpeth, Viscount
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Nicholson, Wm. G.(Petersfield)

Question, "That the word 'ten ' be there inserted " —put, and agreed to.

MR. ASHLEY

moved to insert words in the clause limiting the use of the schoolhouse of an existing voluntary school held under charitable trusts, in so far as it was necessary for the purpose of carrying on a public elementary school " in accordance with the terms of the trust," till January 1st, 1909. The Minister for Education a few days ago had stated that it was his opinion that this clause would enable a voluntary school to be carried on during the year practically and substantially as it was now being carried on. There was, however, an important exception to that. Under the clause the local education authority might during the year dismiss the head or any teacher and appoint a teacher entirely opposed to the religious views of the trustees, and all he asked was that the Minister for Education should carry out what he was sure was he intention of the Government—that there should be continuity of policy during the year. It was no use for the right hon. Gentleman to make friendly and amicable speeches. The Commissioners could only interpret the Act; and they would not pay the slightest attention to speeches in this House.

Amendment proposed— In page 6, line 36, after the word ' school,' to insert the words ' in accordance with the terms of the trust.' "—(Mr. Ashley.)

Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."

MR. BIRRELL

said he did not think the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman would really do him or the cause he had at heart any good. It was not at all a desirable thing that the onus should be put upon the local education authority of interpreting the trust. A good many of these Church schools were not carried on according to any trusts whatever. If the local authority found it necessary to take over the school it would allow the same religious instruction to go on as before without any burrowing and diving into the trusts. He did not think that the insertion of these words would either be useful or effect the object which the hon. Member had in view. The general purpose of the clause was to preserve the continuity of the school. In case the school was not taken over nobody desired that its religious history should be rudely broken. He did not think any difficulties would arise, but if an alteration was necessary it should be made later on.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

agreed that if any precautions were necessary on this point they should be taken later in the clause. During the year the local authority would have taken over the greater number of the voluntary schools, and would use them as non-provided schools under Clauses 1 and 2 with full control over them. But side by side with them there would be those schools which the local authority were running on voluntary lines.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. CLOUGH (Yorkshire, W.R., Skipton)

said his Amendment extended the period to 1910 or such date as the Board of Education might decide. Apart from Clause 10, there was nothing in the Bill enabling the Local Education Authority to retain the use of the schoolhouses, pending the arrangements being completed under Clauses 2 and 8. The education authorities might want to look round to see whether they could procure sites in order to build schools before the present schools passed out of their hands. Under the local education authority of which he was a member, they had no fewer than 559 schools to be transferred, and although they hoped to draw up some agreement by which the bulk of them would be willingly, cheerfully, and promptly transferred, they had always to bear in mind that there were other pig-headed people besides local authorities and they sometimes came across pig-headed parsons, pig-headed diocesan authorities, and pig-headed trustees, and the transfer of the schools might take a little time. How long the Judicial Commission would be over its work even the President of the Board of Education said he could not forecast. Under the Bill the powers of the Commissioners might be extended indefinitely, and he submitted that there should be a little more elasticity with regard to the date. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed— In page 6, line 38, to leave out at the end of sub-section the word ' nine ' and to insert the words ' ten, or such later date as the Board of Education may in any case decide.' "—(Mr. Clough.)

Question proposed, " That the word ' nine ' stand part of the Clause."

DR. MACNAMARA (Camberwell, W.)

said he should support the substitution of ten for nine. That would be fair and reasonable and would give both parties time to look round. It would give more elasticity to the proceedings. It would also enable the teachers in the schools to look round and find other posts. He hoped the President of the Board of Education would see his way to alter the date from 1909 to 1910, although he could not agree to leaving the matter to the Board of Education to decide.

SIR FRANCIS POWELL

said he was not satisfied as to who was going to pay the expense of the repairs during this period under the clause.

THE CHAIRMAN

Order order ! That question does not arise on this Amendment.

LORD R. CECIL

hoped the Government would accept this Amendment, although he would prefer to leave the date to the local authority rather than to the Board of Education. If his suggestion were adopted it would give further elasticity instead of a hard and fast date. To him one year seemed insufficient to get through the considerable amount of negotiations that must take place under the Bill. The year 1909 would give a very short period for all the negotiations with reference to the transfer of the schools, and therefore some means of extending that period was absolutely essential, otherwise they would be brought to an absolute impasse. He hoped the Government would see their way to accept some such Amendment as would give them an extra year in which to conclude negotiations.

MR. BIRRELL

said that, considering the amount of work which the Board of Education would have to do in the future, he could not be a party to adding to their duties by leaving the Board to fix the date. He thought there was a great advantage in having a fixed period. He was quite willing under the circumstances to accept an amendment substituting " ten " for " nine."

MR. CLOUGH

said he should be pleased to move his Amendment in the amended form suggested.

LORD BALCARRES

Perhaps the hon. Member would have no objection to inserting the local authority in place of the Board of Education.

Question put and negatived.

LORD R. CECIL

moved to insert in the second sub-sect ion of the clause the words " not do anything which shall render the schoolhouse less fit for the other purposes of the trust and shall." His object was to make it clear that during the temporary possession of the schoolhouse, which was now extended to two years, the local education authority should do nothing which would interfere with its use for the other purposes for which it was held. He thought if the Minister for Education would bear in mind the exceedingly wide powers conferred upon the local education authority by Clause 2, he would see that in the case of a really hostile local education authority—and there were some—it was necessary that some words should be inserted for the protection of the beneficiaries of the trusts beyond the strictly educational trusts.

Amendment proposed— In page 7, line 4, after the word ' shall,' to insert the words ' not do anything which shall render the schoolhouse less fit for the other purposes of the trust and shall.' ''—(Lord R Cecil.)

Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."

MR. BIRRELL

said the Amendment raised a difficulty in his mind. As to the general purpose of the Amendment he quite agreed with the noble Lord, but it seemed to him that the insertion of these words might give rise to the possibility of disputes between the parties. Everybody would agree that it would be a most improper and unreasonable thing for the local education authority to put up anything of a permanent character which would interfere with the other uses of the schoolhouse during the time it was not used by the local education authority. On the other hand there were certain alterations which from time to time became necessary in the course of the conduct of a school—as, for example, a new class-room was constructed, or something was walled off, screened off, or partitioned off. Then a question might arise between the local education authority and the trustees as to whether that was in excess of their proper user. If the words of the Amendment were accepted disputes and discord would arise. That was the difficulty he felt. The local education authority had, after all, to discharge an educational duty, and it had to see that the premises were suitable for the particular purpose it had to carry out. Of course, a good deal would depend on the character of the alterations which the local education authority might make from time to time. He thought the words proposed by the noble Lord were rather stronger than the necessity of the case required, and that the safeguard which the noble Lord considered necessary would be given if words were inserted to provide that the alterations made should be such as to render the premises fit and proper for use as a school. He was entirely at one with the noble Lord in the general desire, yet he foresaw a source of irritation and litigation between the local authorities and the trustees of the school if the words proposed were inserted. The trustees might say that something had been done which was inconvenient for the other purposes of the school. Therefore, he hoped the noble Lord would not press the Amendment. He thought the matter was one of importance, and he would consider whether he could not introduce words which would limit as much as possible any friction between the parties. He did not want to tie the hands of the local authority. He could conceive that certain trustees might rot like any alteration. If the noble Lord would withdraw his Amendment he really would be very much obliged to him.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said the Minister for Education had made a most delicate appeal to his noble friend, but the right hon. Gentleman had forgotten that about half an hour ago he made light of the idea that any local authority would make alterations on any other body's property which was to be held, as was now provided, for two years. If the local authorities were not going to be such fools as to make alterations on somebody else's property, of which they had the use for two years, he could not see what objection the right hon. Gentleman had to this Amendment. Would he accept the Amendment if his noble friend proposed to put in the words " shall not make any permanent alteration which shall render the schoolhouse less fit for the other purposes of the trust? " He suggested these words as a compromise between the respective opinions of the right hon. Gentleman and his noble friend who appeared to be very close in the matter of policy.

MR. BIRRELL

said he had not had an opportunity of considering the words. He would like a little time for consideration. He thought the words suggested by the Leader of the Opposition were of the kind which should be introduced.

SIR FRANCIS POWELL

said this was really the same Amendment as he proposed on Clause 2. The objection raised by the Government on that occasion was that there was an appeal to the Board of Education. In this case they had a proposal of the same kind, but without the security provided under Clause 2.

MR. BIRRELL

This is a very different thing. This is temporary user.

SIR FRANCIS POWELL

said if it was temporary user it really could not be necessary that the local authority should enter upon expensive alterations which might cause great inconvenience. He, therefore, thought that some security of the kind proposed was necessary for the protection of the owners of the school. Was the cost of the repairs and maintenance to be borne by the local education authority or the owners?

LORD R. CECIL

thanked the Minister for Education for his promise to consider the matter. He asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD BALCARRES

moved an Amendment that it should be an obligation upon the local education authority to make certain that the religious teaching given in the school during the period of transfer was the same as that hitherto given. He thought that such an Amendment was very necessary. These schools under their existing conditions and status gave religious instruction of a particular character, and as they were going to be quasi transferred to the local education authority for a limited period pending a decision as to their ultimate fate by the Commissioners, he thought it only right that the local education authority should not content themselves with permitting the religious instruction previously given to be continued, but should secure that that instruction was really given. He imagined that this was an Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman would be prepared to accept in order to secure that the schools during the intervening period should continue substantially in the same position in regard to religious instruction until their status was decided by the Commission of three.

Amendment proposed— In page 7, line 5, to leave out the word ' permit' and insert the word ' cause.' "—(Lord Balcarres).

Question proposed, " That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR (Liverpool, East Toxteth)

said that throughout the discussions on the Bill they had used phrases such as " special religious instruction " and " religious instruction of the same kind as previously given," but they had had no reference to the particular religious teaching intended, nor was there any security that the teaching would continue of the same character. The Amendment proposed to make it obligatory on the local education authority to secure that the religious teaching given in the schools temporarily taken over should be of the same character as that previously given. But who was to determine whether it was of the same character? What an obligation to put on the local education authority ! It was perfectly true there were religious bodies with absolutely rigid, or, at any rate, well-defined, religious principles, about whose religious teaching no question could possibly arise. But that was not true of all religious bodies, and least of all was it true of the Church of England. He would be glad if the Minister for Education would turn his mind seriously to this aspect of the problem, leaving controversial matters for the more satisfying region of ecclesiastical research. He held in his hand the Report issued by the Royal Commission on Ecclesiastical Discipline in the Church of England— [OPPOSITION cries of "Order"]—and he would invite the Committee to consider the serious nature of the problems raised by that Report.

THE CHAIRMAN

said the question which the hon. Member was raising was not, in his opinion, relevant.

MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR

said they never knew what would happen in the Church, but the Amendment on the question was whether it should be obligatory on the local authority to make sure that the teaching of the Church of England continued to be of the same character as heretofore. However, the Report to which he referred showed that there was no security.

LORD R. CECIL

, on a point of order, asked if it could possibly be relevant to discuss the Report of the Royal Commission. The only question raised was whether the religious teaching was to be of the same character as had been given before, and in what way that was to be secured. The question whether there was a considerable variety of religious teaching in the Church of England was not germane to the subject.

THE CHAIRMAN

said that discussion on the Report of the Commission would, of course, be out of order, but the hon. Member had not yet begun to discuss it.

MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR

said he was only showing by illustration the difficulties which would fall on the local authority if the Amendment were carried. Under the Act of 1902 there was an appeal to the bishop as regards religious instruction, but they were going to alter that, and under the Bill there would be no appeal to the bishop. One clergyman might direct the teaching in his school without any reference whatever to the bishop of the diocese. This was really a very serious matter, because whenever bishops had tried to exert their authority they had met with extreme difficulty. He found on page 75 of this Report that—

THE CHAIRMAN

said the Amendment had nothing to do with lawlessness in the Church of England.

MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR

said that with all respect he submitted that the question of the continuity of a particular kind of religious teaching was involved, and the local authority was stepping into the shoes of the bishop. Therefore he was fairly justified in calling the attention of the Committee to the extreme difficulty which the bishops had experienced in regulating the affairs in their own dioceses. [OPPOSITION cries of " Order."]

THE CHAIRMAN

That does not arise.

MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR

said he did not wish to irritate hon. Members opposite, but would proceed to deal with specific allegations in regard to the character of the teaching. The Church of England was in the melting-pot, from a theological point of view, and therefore it was from that point of view that he wished to direct attention to the serious obligation there was to arrest unlawful teaching in Church of England schools. The Report said that in a large number of Churches there were illegal lights, incense and illegal practices in the service of the Holy Communion—

THE CHAIRMAN

said he could not see what that had to do with the question. He must warn the hon. Member that he was becoming highly irrelevant.

MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR

said he bowed to the Chairman's decision; but he would really advise the Committee to study the position in which they might find themselves in view of the serious character of the Report of the Commission, and the impossibility of the local authority accepting under the Bill duties which the bishops of the Church of England had been unwilling or incapable of discharging.

SIR E. CARSON

thought it would be better to leave the word " permit " as carrying the meaning that the local authority was to leave things alone.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said he really believed there was no difference between the policy of the Government and the desire of the Opposition in reference to this clause that there should be no change whatever in the schools during the transition period. His noble friend thought the effect of the words in the Bill would be to leave this open to the local authority. Perhaps this would be a convenient moment to ask the Government whether the trustees were to have control over the teachers, and give orders as to the hours when religious teaching should be given, or whether that would be left with the local authority. It might be convenient to have from the right hon. Gentleman a statement of the relations that were to subsist between the two co-ordinate authorities.

MR. BIRRELL

said the local authority would have to assume responsibility for the school, taking it over upon certain terms and carrying on the school work. It would be a condition that the local authority should have no option, but should permit religious instruction of the same character as that previously given, and should permit teachers to give that instruction as part of their duty. That clearly indicated that, although it would not be in the power of the trustees or managers to lengthen the time allotted for religious instruction, the local authority would stand by and permit the teachers to give the same religious instruction as had been given heretofore. The only thing of importance was that the local authority was not to interfere with the character of the religious teaching and it was to be of the same kind as it was before and given by the same teachers.

LORD BALCARRES

asked leave to withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD R. CECIL

moved to amend subsection (2) in order to provide that the local education authority shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, and so far as practicable, cause the teachers in the school to give religious instruction of the same character as that previously given as part of their duties.

Amendment proposed— In page 7, line 6, to leave out the word 'permit' and to insert the words ' subject to the provisions of this Act, and so far as practicable, cause.'

Question proposed, " That the word proposed to be left out to stand part of the Question."

MR. BIRRELL

said he preferred the word "permit" to the word "cause" for the reasons he had already given.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said his noble friend had moved an Amendment which raised a very specific question, namely, as to whether the managers or trustees were to be liable to give religious instruction as they were before and would be able to compel the teachers to give religious instruction during the time which they were now compelled to give it. They did not want anything more, but they did want that they should be compelled to do what they had done in the past. The Government had agreed that the managers should not be deprived of their existing machinery for carrying on religious education, but the subsection as it stood did not seem to him to carry out that object. On the other hand, he thought the words proposed in the Amendment were dangerous because they were limiting in their character. He desired that religious education should be given, not according to the provisions of the Bill, but according to what had hitherto taken place.

MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR

asked whether there was any power to appeal or to regulate the character of the religious instruction in these temporarily used voluntary schools. There was a great deal of curiosity on that point.

DR. MACNAMARA

said it appeared to him that they were getting into difficulty with this subsection. It was provided that while a schoolhouse was used under the powers given by this section the same conditions and provisions should apply as where an arrangement was made for the use of a schoolhouse, except that the local education authority should permit this religious instruction to be given. Therefore the present trustees and the managers would disappear, and it appeared to him that they could not under those circumstances compel the teacher to give this religious teaching if he did not wish to do so, because the only provision made was that the local education authority should " permit" the religious instruction given in the school to be of the same character as that previously given.

MR. BIRRELL

said the intention of the clause was that the religion of the school should not be interfered with, and, therefore, the local education authority was put under an obligation to permit the teachers to give religious instruction as heretofore. He hoped the hon. Member for North Camberwell agreed with that.

DR. MACNAMARA

No, I do not.

MR. BIRRELL

All I can say is that it is the intention of the clause that the local education authority shall be under an obligation to permit religious instruction of the same character as heretofore to be given.

DR. MACNAMARA

Oh, I thought you said the local authority could compel the teachers to give it.

MR. BIRRELL

Oh no, there is no power on the part of the local authority to compel the teachers to give religious instruction. The only compulsion is on the local authority to " permit" instruction to be given. The trustees are to be given the power to secure the continuance of the religious teaching in the schools.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said it was admitted by the Government that this religious teaching ought to go on, and that all the local authority had to do was to " permit " it to go on. Who had got the power to compel it?

DR. MACNAMARA

No one.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said that was the real point. The question was whether the managers would have the power to say that between certain times this religious instruction must be given. If they had not that power there was no security that the old system would be carried on. If they had that power, they would be able to see that the religious education was continued. At present the managers had that power, and if it was taken away there would, as he had said, be no security for the continuance of this kind of teaching.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said the teacher had been engaged to give this religious instruction, and when the school came under the provisions of the Bill the teacher would be paid, by the local authority and he was therefore in the service of that body. Could he not take advantage of the clause which said that the teacher was not to be required to give religious instruction? He asked whether the right hon. Gentleman would accept an Amendment to provide that the local education authority should enforce any requirement made by the managers on the teachers in the school to give that religious instruction as part of their duties. The teachers had been engaged by the managers to give this instruction, and, if the managers were displaced by the local authority, the power of the local authority should be brought to bear on the teachers at the instance of the managers.

MR. YOXALL (Nottingham, W.)

did not think the difficulty would be got over by the Amendment suggested. So long as the existing head teacher, who had been appointed to give this definite religious instruction, continued in the school, he could go on giving that instruction if he wished to do so. But, if he was removed and another head teacher arrived, then the question arose who would appoint, him, and whether he should be asked whether he would or would not give this religious instruction. That was in the nature of a temporary test. The difficulty might be got over, but he did not think it would be by the words suggested.

MR. BIRRELL

thought the difficulty would be got over when they came to consider subsequent Amendments with regard to the appointment of the teacher. He did not know that, during the period the schools were taken over, the foundation managers would be continued. He did not think they would. He had always had it in his mind that the appointment of the teacher would be entirely with the local authority, and one, at all events, of the subsequent Amendments would have to be accepted so as to provide that the local authority, in appointing a new teacher for these schools, would have to make the appointment in connection with the trusts of the schools, just in the same way as the foundation managers would have done if this Act had not been passed.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said that was most satisfactory as far as it went, but although it solved one difficulty it did not solve all. It would solve the difficulty of the character of the teaching to be given. It would ensure that the teacher would be of the denomination by which the school had been built and carried on, but it traversed the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman a few moments ago that all that was required was to leave these things alone. The clause insisted on the appointment of denominational teachers, and that might be the only way out of the difficulty, although he should have thought it would have been much more simple to have left the managers in the same position as they were in now for the next two years. It might be fair, so far as it went, but it did not settle the question who was to require these teachers to teach religion during this three-quarters of an hour. Who was to say to the teacher, "You shall teach religion, and the religion you shall teach is such and such religion? " If that was to be the local authority then they came back to the difficulty suggested by the hon. Member for East Toxteth at an earlier stage. If it was not the local authority, was it to be the managers? The managers were to be abolished. If the managers were abolished the only possible alternative was the trustees. He thought it ought to be left to somebody. Somebody must be responsible for seeing that a teacher who had to give the religious teaching should be qualified to give it.

MR. BIRRELL

explained that there would be managers appointed by the local authority, and it would certainly be their duty to see that the statutory obligation that the religious teaching should be the same as heretofore was carried out.

MR. BLAKE (Longford, S.)

said it was obvious that the intention of the Government was that during this transition period the things which did exist already should remain so far as religious instruction was concerned. That appeared to be foreshadowed by the clause, but if there was any doubt the words at the end of the clause, " to give that instruction " might, be strengthened by the addition of the words " as part of their duty." It should be part of their duty to give the accustomed religious instruction, and he thought that with that fortification of the section it might be very well left to the managers to fulfil their duty, which was to see that the things which they were accustomed to do before should continue to be done.

DR. MACNAMARA

said the difficulty was that the first three lines of this subsection of Clause 10 made these schools " provided schools " subject to the particular form of religion taught in them being continued. What he wished to know was, it being a provided school, whether the teacher of that school would not have the relief granted by Section 7, subsection (2)—that was to say they would not be required as part of their duty to give any religious instruction, or submit to any religious test. He submitted that the whole of these three lines would have to be materially altered.

MR. STUART WORTLEY (Sheffield, Hallam)

said he believed the clause aimed at being a continuance of the Status quo ante. In effect it was not so, nor would the Amendment secure that result. It would have no operation except on a vacancy arising. In the intervening period teachers would not be under any obligation to obey anybody's orders in regard to religious instruction.

SIR W. ROBSON

said that this clause was drafted on the assumption that the teachers who had been giving religious instruction would not decline to go on giving that teaching. He thought it was true to say that they would not be bound to give it, but, at the same time, they expected that the teachers would go on as they had heretofore done. The Government were unwilling to go through even the form of putting in words of compulsion, because they believed they would be quite unnecessary.

MR. R. PEARCE (Staffordshire, Leek)

said that the only object of the clause was to enable the local authority to take possession of a school in an area where there was not sufficient school accommodation and to provide for secular instruction. They on the Ministerial side of the House had no sympathy with all this talk of denominational instruction. They could settle the question by substituting the ordinary religious instruction which was to be given in the provided schools, and he hoped the Government would not place any obligation upon the local authority to go beyond permitting religious instruction being given.

MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR

said his right hon. friend was practically putting the local authority in the responsible position that bishops occupied. The obligation for continuing in these schools religious instruction of the same character as had been previously given, rested with the local authority. It rested on the teacher to give the same kind of religious instruction as was given before in the schools; that threw a much more serious responsibility on the local authority than any responsibility that was thrown upon them under Clauses 3 and 4. Under Clause 3 the local authorities only threw open the door of the schools and gave facilities to certain people to give the religious instruction they desired to give. Under Clause 4 it was provided that where four-fifths of the parents desired it that religious instruction should be given; but here the local authority was going to undertake to give the religious teaching. Surely, therefore, it should be of the same character as that previously given. Might he ask his right hon. friend to answer the question as to who was really to settle a case of dispute regarding the character of the religious teaching in these schools?

LORD R. CECIL

, in asking leave to-withdraw the Amendment, said he wished the right hon. Gentleman had expressed the view earlier that in order to secure the continuance of denominational teaching, it was necessary to have denominational teachers.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. ASHLEY

moved to add at the end of the clause the words, " and the local education authority shall have no power to dismiss teachers except on educational grounds."

MR. BIRRELL

said he could not accept this particular Amendment.

Mr. ASHLEY

said perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would accept an Amendment later on. The fight hon. Gentleman in a speech he delivered this afternoon had stated that he wished these schools to have the same teachers during the next two or three years. It did not say so in the clause, and though he granted it would seldom happen that they would be dismissed, the Committee ought to guard against eventualities, and put in words at the end of the clause to afford security in this respect.

Amendment proposed— In page 7, line 8, at the end, to add the words ' And the local education authority shall have no power to dismiss teachers except on educational grounds.' "—(Mr. Ashley.)

Question proposed, " That those words "be there inserted."

MR. BIRRELL

said he could not accept these words, because they put far too great restrictions upon the power of the local authority. Nor did he think

the Amendment at all necessary in order to carry out the general purposes of this clause.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

thought they wanted some security as regarded this matter, and he hoped if the right hon. Gentleman would not accept this Amendment he would give careful consideration to some other Amendment to effect this object.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 152; Noes, 326. (Division List No. 206.)

AYES.
Abraham, William(Cork,N.E. Field, William Mooney, J. J.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Finch, Rt, Hon. George H. Morpeth, Viscount
Anstruther-Gray, Major Flavin, Michael Joseph Muntz, Sir Philip A.
Arnold-Forster.Rt. Hn. HughO Fletcher, J. S. Murphy, John
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn.SirH. Flynn, James Christopher Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)
Balcarres, Lord Forster, Henry William Nield, Herbert
Balfour, RtHnA.J. (City Lond) Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) Nolan, Joseph
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) O'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary Mid.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Ginnell, L. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Banner. John S. Harmood- Haddock, George R. O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. Halpin, J. O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Beach, Hn. MichaelHugh Hicks Hamilton, Marquess of O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Bignold, Sir Arthur Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Blake, Edward Hayden, John Patrick O'Hare, Patrick
Boland, John Hazleton, Richard O' Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Bowles, G. Stewart Helmsley, Viscount O' Kelly, James(Roscommon,N
Boyle, Sir Edward Hervey, F. W. F(BurySEdm'ds O'Malley, William
Brotherton, Edward Allen Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) O'Mara, James
Bull, Sir William James Hills, J. W. O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Burdett-Coutts. W. Hogan, Michael O'Shee, James John
Burke, E. Haviland- Hornby, Sir William Henry Parkes, Ebenezer
Carlile, E. Hildred Houston, Robert Paterson Pease,HerbertPike(Darlington)
Carson, Rt .Hon. Sir Edw. H. Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Castlereagh, Viscount Kenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hon.Col.W. Power, Patrick Joseph
Cave, George Keswick, William Ratcliff, Major R, F.
Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W. Kilbride, Denis Rawlinson, John FrederickPeel
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) King, Sir HenrySeymour(Hull) Redmond, John E(Waterford)
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Lane-Fox, G. R. Redmond, William (Clare)
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Remnant, James Farquharson
Clancy, John Joseph Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall
Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham) Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Liddell, Henry Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Cogan, Denis J. Lockwood, Rt, Hn.Lt-Col. A. R. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Long, Col, Chas. W. (Evesham) Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Lonsdale, John Brownlee Stanley,Hn.Arthur(Ormskirk
Courthope, G. Loyd Lowe, Sir Francis William Starkey, John R.
Craig,CharlesCurtis(AntrimS. Lundon, W. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Craik, Sir Henry MacIver, David (Liverpool) Sullivan, Donal
Crean, Eugene MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. Talbot, Rt,Hn.J.G.(Oxf'dUniv
Cullinan, J. M'Iver, SirLewis(Edinburgh,W Thomson, W. Mitchell(Lanark)
Delany, William M'Kean, John Thornton, Percy M.
Devlin,CharlesRamsay(Galway M'Killop, W. Turnour, Viscount
Dixon-Hartland.SirFred Dixon Magnus, Sir Philip Valentia, Viscount.
Donelan, Captain A. Marks, H. H. (Kent) Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancash.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Mason, James F. (Windsor) Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Du Cros, Harvey Meagher,Michael
Duffy, William J. Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Duncan, Robt. (Lanark, Govan Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Fell, Arthur Mildmay, Francis Bingham Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George TELLERS FOR THE AYES —Mr. Ashley and Mr. Butcher.
Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R. Young, Samuel
Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Younger, George
NOES.
Acland, Francis Dyke Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen,W.)
Adkins, W. Ryland Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Henry, Charles S.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Cory, Clifford John Herbert, ColonelIvor(Mon.,S.)
Alden, Percy Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Cowan, W. H. Higham, John Sharp
Armitage, R. Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth Hobart. Sir Robert
Ashton, Thomas Gair Cremer, William Randal Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Asquith,Rt.Hon.HerbertHenry Crombie, John William Holden, E. Hopkinson
Astbury, John Meir Crooks, William Holland, Sir William Henry
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Crosfield, A. H. Hooper, A. G.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Crossley, William J. Hope, John Dean(Fife, West)
Baring, Godfrey(IsleofWight) Dalziel, James Henry Hope, W.Bateman(Somorset,N.
Barker, John Davies,David(MontgomeryCo. Howard, Hun. Geoffrey
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Hutton, Alfred Eddison
Barnard, E. B. Davies, M.Vaughan-(Cardigan Hyde, Clarendon
Barnes, G. N. Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Illingworth. Percy H.
Beale, W. P. Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Isaacs, Rufus Daniel
Beauchamp. E. Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Jackson, R. S.
Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Jacoby, James Alfred
Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Jardine, Sir J.
Beck, A. Cecil Dobson, Thomas W. Johnson, John (Gateshead)
Bell, Richard Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)
Bellairs, Carlyon Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Benn,W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Jones, William(Carnarvonshire
Berridge, T. H. D. Dunne, MajorE.Martin(Walsall Kearley, Hudson E.
Bertram, Julius Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Kennedy. Vincent Paul
Bethell, J.H.(Essex.Romford) Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Kincaid-Smith, Captain
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Edwards, Frank (Radnor) King, Alfred John (Knutsford)
Billson, Alfred Elibank, Master of Kitson, Sir .James
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Ellis.Rt.Hon. John Edward Laidlaw, Robert
Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff) Erskine, David C. Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster
Black, ArthurW.(Bedfordshire) Essex, R. W. Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)
Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire,N.E.) Eve, Harry Trelawney Lambert, George
Boulton, A. C. F.(Ramsey) Everett, R. Lacey Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.
Brace, William Faber, G. H. (Boston) Lamont, Norman
Bramsdon, T. A. Fenwick, Charles Lea, HughCecil(St,Pancras,E.)
Branch, James Ferens, T. R. Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington
Bridgeman, W, Clive Ferguson, R. C. Munro Lever, A.Levy(Essex,Harwich.
Brigg, John Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Lever, W.H.(Cheshire,Wirral)
Bright, J. A. Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Levy, Maurice
Brocklehurst, W. D. Fullerton, Hugh Lewis, John Herbert
Brodie, H. C. Gardner, Col.Alan(Hereford,S. Lough, Thomas
Brooke, Stopford Gibb, James (Harrow) Lupton, Arnold
Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs.,Leigh) Gill, A. H. Luttrel, Hugh Fownes
Bryce, Rt.Hn.James(Aberdeen Gladstone,Rt.HnHerbert John Lyell, Charles Henry
Bryce, J.A.(InvernessBurghs) Glendinning, R. G. Macdonald. J. R. (Leicester)
Buckmaster, Stanley O. Goddard, Daniel Ford Macdonald. J. M.(FalkirkB'ghs-
Burns, Rt.Hon. John Gooch, George Peabody Mackarness, Frederic C.
Burnyeat, J. D. W. Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Maclean, Donald
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Greenwood, Hamar (York) Macnamara. Dr. Thomas J.
Buxton, Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward M'Arthur, William
Byles, William Pollard Grove, Archibald M'Callum, John M.
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Gulland, John W. M'Crae, George
Causton, Rt.Hn. RichardKnight Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton M'Kenna, Reginald
Cawley, Frederick Hall, Frederick M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)
Chance, Frederick William Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)
Cheetham, John Frederick Hardie, J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil) M'Micking. Major G.
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Mallet, Charles E.
Churchill, Winston Spencer Hart-Davies, T. Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Clarke, C. Goddard Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Mansfield, H. Kendall (Lincoln)
Clough, W. Harwood, George Marnham, F. J.
Clynes. J.R. Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Mason,A. E. W. (Coventry)
Coats, SirT. Glen(Renfrew,W.) Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Massie, J.
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Hedges, A. Paget Masterman, C. F. G
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Helme, Norval Watson Menzies, Walter
Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Micklem, Nathaniel
Molteno, Percy Alport Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Thomasson, Franklin
Montagu, E. S. Robertson, Rt.Hn.E.(Dundee) Thompson,J. W. H.(Somerset,E
Montgomery, H. G. Robertson, SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd Tomkinson, James
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Robertson, J. M. (Tynsside) Torrance, A. M.
Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen) Robinson, S. Toulmin, George
Morley, Rt. Hon. John Robson, Sir William Snowdon Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Morrell, Philip Roe, Sir Thomas Ure, Alexander
Morse, L. L. Rogers,F. E. Newman Verney, F. W.
Myer, Horatio Runciman, Walter Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Napier, T. B. Russell, T. W. Wallace, Robert
Newnes, V. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Walsh, Stephen
Nicholls, George Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Walters, John Tudor
Nicholson,CharlesN.(Doncast'r Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Walton, Sir John L(Leeds, S.)
Norman, Henry Scarisbrick, T. T. L. Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)
Nuttall, Harry Schwann, Sir C.E.(Manchester) Wardle, George J.
O'Grady, J. Sears, J. E. Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Parker, James (Halifax) Seaverns, J. H. Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Paul, Herbert Seddon, J. Wason, JohnCath

art(Orkney)
Paulton, James Mellor Seely, Major J. B. Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) Shackleton, David James Whitbread, Howard
Pearce, William (Limehouse) Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) White, George (Norfolk)
Perks, Robert William Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick B.) White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Philipps, Col.Ivor(S'thampton) Shipman, Dr. John G. White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke Silcock, Thomas Ball Whitehead, Rowland
Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Pickersgill, Edward Hare Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Pollard, Dr. Soames, Arthur Wellesley Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Price, C. E.(Edinb'gh,Central) Soares, Ernest J. Williams,Llewelyn(Carmart'n
Price, RobortJohn(Norfolk,E.) Spicer, Sir Albert Williamson, A.
Priestley, W.E. B.(Bradford,E. Stewart, Halley (Greenock) Wilson Hon.C.H.W.(Hull,W.
Rainy, A. Rolland Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Raphael, Herbert H. Strachey, Sir Edward Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne Straus, B. S. (Mile End) Wilson, J.W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Wilson, I. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro' Stuart, James (Sunderland) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Rees, J. D. Summerbell, T. Winfrey, R.
Rendell, Athelstan Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Renton, Major Leslie Taylor, John W. (Durham.) Woodhouse,Sir.JT(Hud'rs'field
Richards,T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n Taylor, Theodore C.(Radciffe) Yoxall, James Henry
Richardson, A. Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)
Racket, J. Compton Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease
Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Thomas, Sir A(Glamorgan, E.)
Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Thomas,David Alfred(Merthyr)
MR. ASHLEY

, in moving to add at the end of the clause:—" And no teacher shall be appointed by the local education authority, except in accordance with the terms of the trust," said he would not detain the Committee with any remarks, because he understood that the right hon. Gentleman had expressed his willingness to accept this Amendment.

Amendment proposed— In page 7, line 8, at the end, to insert the words ' And no teacher shall be appointed by the local education authority, except in accordance with the terms of the trust,' "—(Mr. Ashley.)

Question proposed, " That these words be there inserted."

MR. BIRRELL

said these words were rather out of keeping with the earlier part of the clause. Of that there could be no doubt, but he thought the whole Committee would recognise that they were here simply acquiring the temporary use of voluntary schools, and they did so because they wished the local authority to provide sufficient accommodation. If they could not come to terms they might have to build new school premises. He thought justice and equity demanded that they should not do anything during their temporary usage of other people's premises which would interfere with the character of the school when the tenancy ceased. It was essential that they should make a provision that if any vacancy arose in the office of teacher whilst the schoolhouse was being used, the local authority should only appoint a teacher who was willing to give the teaching of the denomination, whatever it might be, to which that school belonged. He thought that was only a fair and just proposal. He did not know that the words proposed by the hon. Member opposite were the best for that purpose, and he would suggest the following— And if a vacancy arises in the office of teacher, while the schoolhouse is used under this section, the local education authority shall, in choosing the teacher, appoint a teacher who is willing to give the religious instruction required under this section. Those words would secure that the local education authority would be obliged to appoint a teacher who was willing to give the religious instruction in accordance with the denominational character of the school. Having regard to the nature of the bargain there was the possibility that the local education authority would never acquire the school and they might build others. He thought it would be clearly wrong to do anything which would break up or interfere with the religious continuity of the school.

MR. ASHLEY

said that after the liberal way in which he had been met, he would withdraw his Amendment and accept the words the right hon. Gentleman had suggested.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— In page 7, line 8, at end, to insert the words ' and if a vacancy arises in the office of teacher while the schoolhouse is used under this section, the local education authority shall, in choosing the teacher, appoint a teacher who is willing to give the religious instruction required under this section." '— (Mr. Birrell)

Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."

MR. PERKS (Lincolnshire, Louth)

said he most earnestly protested against this concession which the Minister for Education had made. He and other Members on the Ministerial side of the House had noticed with some concern during the passage of the Bill the concessions made in the direction of the sectarian schools repeatedly whittling away some of the advantages in the opposite direction which they thought they were entitled to look for from the Government. If he understood the new provision correctly it would, in villages especially, enable the Church of England or the National Society to hold possession of the village schools for two years during the whole of which time they might be negotiating with the local authority; and during that period they would have control of the school and practically control of the appointment of teachers. Owing to an Amendment accepted earlier in the day the period of one year which would have compelled the voluntary schools to have quickly come to terms had been extended so that two years were now given for these negotiations. If he was wrong in that interpretation he should be glad to be set right. That meant that the Church of England or the National Society would have absolute control for two years of the national schools in the villages, which they had fondly hoped would have immediately come under the control of the local educational authority. There was also another singular result of this concession. The Bill was intended to unify education and to provide all through the country schools under popular control and free from sectarian tests. Those were the two principles for which many Members fought very hard at the recent election. Under the late Education Act two types of schools were created, but the present Bill provided five types of schools, and this new proposal provided a sixth—a transition type of school under which there would be all the objectionable features of the imposition of sectarian tests upon teachers.

MR. BIRRELL

There is no need to take it over.

MR. PERKS

replied that that was exactly his grievance; he wished to take it. [" Oh."] He was not surprised at this out burst from Members on the Opposition side of the House. Those hon. Members knew what they wanted, and that was to have control of the sectarian schools. He was supremely anxious that these schools at the earliest possible moment, especially in the villages, should be freed from sectarian and denominational control.

DR. MACNAMARA

said his hon. friend the Member for Louth did not appear to recognise that these schools were to be taken over without any payment during the transition period. The object was to carry them on for a period of two years under the schemes of 1902. He was sorry they had to carry on the Act of 1902 in these respects, but they could do nothing else just now while the negotiations were proceeding. If his right hon. friend honestly desired to carry on things as they were in cases where no agreement had been arrived at he was bound to recast the clause, and especially the first three lines of it. With regard to the Amendment of the President of the Board of Education, the spirit of which he entirely accepted, he admitted that they must carry on the 1902 arrangement for a short period, but thought the present proposal went a little beyond that arrangement. The arrangement only required the trustees in the matter of appointments to have the head teacher of the denomination to which the school belonged.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said his recollection of the 1902 arrangement was that the appointment of teachers was to he left to the managers of the schools, subject to the veto of the local education authority on secular grounds. But the managers were not obliged to appoint any of the teachers of the school according to the religion of the denomination to which the school belonged.

DR. MACNAMARA

said he was prepared to have that arrangement during the whole of the time which elapsed before an agreement was arrived at. This Amendment subjected every teacher in the transferred schools to the religious test. It was to the credit of the Leader of the Opposition that he freed the pupil teacher and the assistant teacher from a denominational test.

SIR W. ROBSON

dissented.

DR. MACNAMARA

The Solicitor-General shakes his head.

SIR W. ROBSON

said under the Act of 1902 the managers were not bound to appoint the under-teachers of the same denomination, but it was to be assumed that they generally appointed under-teachers of the same denomination.

DR. MACNAMARA

said that under the proposed Amendment there would not be any assumption at all. He appealed to the Government to carry out the letter and the spirit of the 1902 arrangement. He thought they might fairly ask that if they subjected the head teacher to a religious test for the period to which he had alluded they should free the pupil teacher and the assistant teacher. In his opinion they were bound to carry out the spirit of the 1902 arrangement with the school with which no agreement had been made.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said that under the Act of 1902 the denominational majority of managers had what he understood the Government had not made up their minds to give, namely, the power of requiring that the teachers appointed should carry on religious teaching in the school. He had requested the Government to carry the 1902 scheme in that most important and essential particular into their new system, but so far he could not honestly say that he had received more than generalities. He had asked the Government to embody these generalities in specific words, but he had not yet got them to do it. He asked the Committee not to think even with the concession of the Government these schools would, from the denominational point of view, be under the 1902 standard and not above it.

MR. ELLIS GRIFFITH (Anglesey)

complained that concession after concession, night after night, was made by the Minister for Education to the Opposition. [Cries of " No, no."] At any rate, hon. Gentlemen opposite had been very strong in their praise of the right hon. Gentleman, and they praised him because he satisfied them. The right hon. Gentleman ought to limit his concession to the head teacher.

MR. BIRRELL

said the word " concession " was constantly being used—he did not think in the very exact meaning of the word. An important concession would be a departure from the principle of the Bill as introduced. Surely they could not say it was a concession if the Minister in charge of a Bill, doing his duty as best he could under somewhat difficult circumstances, endeavoured to make the meaning of the Government perfectly intelligible and did so in good faith. The Amendment only carried out the intention of the clause, no more and no less, and he disputed the statement that it was a concession. In a deliberative assembly, when an argument was presented and they felt the force of it, they had to give attention to it. If they felt a point had been made they had to regard it wholly irrespective of the majority they might command in the lobbies. Otherwise they would cease to be a deliberative assembly. Of course, he would much sooner have the support of his own side than that of hon. Gentlemen opposite, but when a good point was made which showed that amendment was called for in order to carry out the expressed intentions of the Government, he saw no shame in accepting it.

MR. HERBERT (Buckinghamshire, Wycombe)

said the President of the Board of Education in this particular matter was going further than was required by the circumstances of the case. He was one of those who desired to consider the matter in a fair and business spirit. He understood that it was the intention of the Government that the school should be carried on upon the same terms, and in the same way, as it was now being carried on. The condition applying to the school at present was that no teacher, except the head teacher, should be required to give religious instruction as part of his duties. The Amendment of the Minister for Education proposed to go far beyond that, because it required all the teachers in the school to give religious instruction. He ventured to think that that was

going unnecessarily beyond the existing system, or what was required to fulfil the desire of the Government. He was unable to assent to the Amendment unless the Minister was willing to limit it to the head teacher.

MR. LEIF JONES (Westmorland, Apply by)

said he agreed with the Minister for Education that a point made by those on the opposite side of the House might be good, but a point made by those on the Ministerial side might also be good. He thought the point that the religious test should be limited to the head teacher was a good point. The Amendment of the President of the Board of Education went beyond what was reasonable. Under the 1902 Act the managers of provided schools were allowed to appoint sub-teachers without regard to the denominations to which the schools were attached. But under the Amendment, as he understood it, if an under-teacher was removed, a successor would have to be appointed belonging to the denomination to which the school was attached, so that in that case the denominational test for teachers would be again applied. He submitted that that went far beyond the necessities of the case and might injuriously affect the whole teaching Staff of a school.

MR. CLOUGH (Yorkshire, W.R., Skipton)

said he should vote against, this Amendment in any shape or form, because it went against the whole principle and spirit of the Bill. It would cause the local education authority to impose a religious test on teachers, which they did not even have to do under the deplorable Act of 1902.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 369; Noes, 51. (Divisional List No. 207).

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)
Acland, Francis Dyke Anson, Sir William Reynell Balcarres, Lord
Acland-Hood,RtHn.SirAlexF. Anstruther-Gray, Major Balfour,RtHn.A.J. (City Lond.
Adkins, W Ryland Ashley, W. W. Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey
Ainsworth, John Stirling Asquith,RtHn.HerbertHenry Balfour, Robert (Lanark)
Alden, Percy Astbury, John Meir Banner, John S. Harmood-
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hn.Sit H. Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight
Barker, John Crombie, John William Holland, Sir William Henry
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Crosfield, A. H. Hooper, A. G.
Barnard, E. B. Cullinan, J. Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset,N.
Barran, Rowland Hirst Davies,David(Montgomery Co. Hornby, Sir William Henry
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Horniman, Emslie John
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks Davies, M. Vaugban-(Cardigan Houston, Robert Paterson
Beale, W. P. Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Beauchamp, E. Delany, William Hunt, Rowland
Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway Hyde, Clarendon
Bell, Richard Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Illingworth, Percy H.
Bellairs, Carlyon Dixon-Hartland,SirFredDixon Jacoby, James Alfred
Benn,W'.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo. Dobson, Thomas W. Johnson, John (Gateshead)
Berridge, T. H. D. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Johnson, W. (Nuncaton)
Bertram, Julius Du Cros, Harvey Jones, William (Carnarvonshire
Bethell J. H. (Essex, Romford) Duffy, William J. Kearley, Hudson E.
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Kennaway,Rt. Hn. Sir John H.
Billson, Alfred Duncan,Robert(Lanark, Gov'n Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Birrell, Rt Hon. Augustine Dunne,MajorE.Martin(Walsall Kenyon-Slaney Rt.Hn.Col. W.
Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Kilbride, Denis
Black,ArthurW.(Bedfordshire) Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Kincaid-Smith, Captain
Blake, Edward Edwards, Frank (Radnor) King, Alfred John (Knutsford)
Boland, John Elibank, .Master of King,Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)
Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N. E.) Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Kitson, Sir James
Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) Erskine, David C. Laid law, Robert
Bowles, G. Stewart Essex, R. W. Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster
Bramsdon. T. A. Eve, Harry Trelawney Lambert, George
Branch, James Everett, R. Lacey Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.
Bridgeman, W. Clive Fenwick, Charles Lamont, Norman
Brigg, John Ferens, T. R. Lane-Fox, G. R.
Brocklehurst, W. D. Ferguson, R. C. Munro Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)
Brodie, H. C. Field, William Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Brooke, Stopford Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Lee,ArthurH. (Hants. Fareham
Brotherton, Edward Allen Finch, Rt. Hon. (George H. Leese,SirJoseph F.(Accrington)
Brunner,J. F.L. (Lancs., Leigh) Findlay, Alexander Lever, A. Levy(Essex,Harwich
Bryce, Rt. Hn.James(Aberdeen Flavin, Michael Joseph Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)
Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs) Flynn, James Christopher Lewis, John Herbert
Buckmaster, Stanley O. Fuller, John Michael F. Liddell, Henry
Burdett-Coutts, W. Fullerton, Hugh Long, Col. CharlesW(Evesham
Burke, E. Haviland Gardner,Col.Alan(Hereford,S.) Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Gibb, James (Harrow) Lough, Thomas
Burnyeat, J. D. W. Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Lowe, Sir Francis William
Butcher, Samuel Henry Ginnell, L. Lundon, W.
Buxton,Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas Gladstone, Rt. Hn.Herbert John Lyell, Charles Henry
Byles, William Pollard Greenwood, Hamar (York) Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs
Carlile, E. Hildred Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Grove, Archibald Mackarness, Frederic C.
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Gulland, John W. Maclean, Donald
Castlereagh, Viscount Haddock, George R. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Cavendish, Rt. Hn.ViotorC.W. Hall, Frederick MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.
Cawley, Frederick Halpin, J. M'Arthur, William
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hamilton, Marquess of M'Crae, George
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis M'Iver SirLewis(EdinburghW
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) M'Kean, John
Chance, Frederick William Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. M'Killop, W.
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)
Churchill, Winston Spencer Harwood, George M'Micking, Major G.
Clancy, John Joseph Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Magnus, Sir Philip
Clarke, C. Goddard Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Mallet, Charles E.
Cleland, J. W. Hayden, John Patrick Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hazleton, Richard Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)
Cogan, Denis J. Heaton, John Henniker Mason, James F. (Windsor)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Hedges, A. Paget Massie, J.
Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W Helmsley, Viscount Masterman, C. F. G.
Condon, Thomas Joseph Henderson,J.M. (Aberdeen,W.) Meagher, Michael
Corbett,C.H. (Sussex, E Grinst'd Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.) Micklem, Nathaniel
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hervey, F.W.F.(BurySEdm'ds MiddlemoreJohnThrogmorton
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Higham, John Sharp Molteno, Percy Alport
Courthope, G. Loyd Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) Money, L. G. Chiozza
Cowan, W. H. Hills, J. W. Montgomery, H. G.
Craig, Herbert J.(Tynemouth) Hobart, Sir Robert Mooney, J. J.
Craik, Sir Henry Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Crean, Eugene Hogan, Michael: Morley, Rt. Hon. John
Cremer, William Randal Holden, E. Hopkinson Morpeth, Viscount
Morrell, Philip Rees, J. D. Torrance, Sir A. M.
Muntz, Sir Philip A. Remnant, James Farquharson Toulmin, George
Murphy, John Renton, Major Leslie Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Murray, James Rickett, J. Compton Ure, Alexander
Myer, Horatio Roberts, S.(Sheffield,Ecclesall) Valentia, Viscount
Newnes, F.(Notts.,Bassetlaw) Robertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Walker, Col.W. H. (Lancashire)
Nield, Herbert Robson, Sir William Snowdon Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Nolan, Joseph Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Walters, John Tudor
Norman, Henry Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Salter, Arthur Clavell Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Nuttall, Harry Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent
O'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary,Mid Scarisbrick, T. T. L. Wardle, George J.
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Schwann Sir, C. E. (Manchester Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W) Sears, J. E. Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney)
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Seaverns, J. H. Waterlow, D. S.
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Seely, Major J. B. Wedgwood, Josiah C.
O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick) Whitbread, Howard
O'Hare, Patrick Shipman, Dr. John G. White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Silcock, Thomas Ball White, Luke (York, E.R.)
O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N. Sinclair, Rt. Hon .John White, Patrick (Meath, North)
O'Malley, William Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Whitehead, Rowland
O'Mara, James Smith,Abel H. (Hertford, East) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
O'Shee, James John Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Paul, Herbert Soames, Arthur Wellesley Wiles, Thomas
Paulton, James Mellor Soares, Ernest J. Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) Spicer, Sir Albert Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Pearce, William (Limehouse) Starkey, John R. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington Stewart, Halley (Greenock) Wills, Arthur Walters
Philipps,J.Wynford(Pembroke Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E.R.)
Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Stone, Sir Benjamin Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Pickersgill, Edward Hare Strachey, Sir Edward Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh., N.)
Pollard, Dr. Straus, B. S. (Mile End) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk, Mid
Power, Patrick Joseph Stuart, James (Sunderland) Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E. Sullivan, Donal Woodhouse,SirJT.(Huddersf'd.
Radford, G. H. Talbot, Rt,Hn.J.G.(Oxf'dUniv. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Rainy, A. Rolland Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. (George
Raphael, Herbert H. Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury Young, Samuel
Ratcliff, Major R. F. Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Rawlinson, John Frederick P. Thomas, Abel(Carmarthen, E.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Thomasson, Franklin
Rea, Waller Russell (Scarboro' Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset,E.
Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Thornton, Percy M.
Redmond, William (Clare) Tomkinson, James
NOES.
Barnes, G. N. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Rutherford. V. H. (Brentford)
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N) Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Shackleton, David James
Beck, A. Cecil Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Shaw, Charles Edw. ({Stafford)
Bignold. Sir Arthur Hutton, Alfred Eddison Summerbell, T.
Brace, William Jones, Leif (Appleby) Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Clynes, J. R. Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe
Crooks, William Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Walsh, Stephen
Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln White, George (Norfolk)
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Williams,Llewellyn(Carmathen
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Nicholls, George Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Fell, Arthur Parker, James (Halifax) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Price, Robert John (.Norfolk, E. Winfrey, R.
Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne
Gill, A. H. Rendall, Athelstan TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Ellis Griffith and Mr. Clough.
Glendinning, R. G. Richards, T.F.(Wolverhampt'n
Goddard, Daniel Ford Richardson, A.
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Hardie, J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil Russell, T. W.
MR. GARDNER (Berkshire, Wokingham)

stated that under a misapprehension he voted in the wrong lobby.

SIR E. CARSON

moved to insert at the end of the words last inserted— Clause 6 of this Act shall not apply while the schoolhouse is used under this section. The object of the Amendment was merely to make clear what the right hon. Gentleman stated in the earlier part of the discussion to the effect that it would be unwise to interrupt the facilities for religious teaching during the time the school was in this transition state. Clause 6 enacted that the parent of a child attending a public elementary school should not be under any obligation to cause the child to attend at the schoolhouse except during the times allotted in the time-table exclusively to secular instruction. That enabled parents to withdraw their children during the hours of religious instruction. There was some division of opinion about the clause, when it was discussed, and as the right hon. Gentleman said he did not wish any interference with religious instruction in the schools now under discussion, he did not think he could have any objection to this Amendment which simply provided that during the transition period the instruction should be continued.

Amendment proposed— In page 7, line 8, after the words last inserted, to insert the words, ' Section 6 of this Act shall not apply while a schoolhouse is used under this section.'

Question proposed. " That, those words be there inserted."

SIR W. ROBSON

did not think the right hon. and learned Gentleman correctly stated the effect of what his right hon. friend had said, which was that he did not wish to interfere with facilities for religious instruction in these temporary schools. The right hon. and learned Gentleman went by his Amendment a good deal further than his right hon. friend's words, or any reasonable meaning to be attached to them. Why should not Clause 6 apply to these schools? No difficulty had existed in the past, and he did not believe that a single summons had been issued to compel a child to attend during the time of religious instruction. The compulsion had only been applied in regard to secular instruction. There was no necessity for compulsion now, especially as the local education authority only held these schools for two years, which period might be reduced by agreement. It was therefore very undesirable to make a different rule between these schools and other schools.

LORD R. CECIL

failed to follow the argument of the hon. and learned Gentleman. He did not know whether he thought that Clause 6 had any meaning or not. He understood that the Government desired to keep these schools in status quo during the transition period. If that was their desire did Clause 6 make any difference at all?

SIR W. ROBSON

said that religious instruction would go on in the same way without compulsion.

LORD R. CECIL

wanted to know whether that was understood. The Solicitor-General had argued that there was no compulsion at the present time, and also that Clause 6 made no alteration. If that was so, why was it in the Bill at all? In his view, if denominational teaching was to continue in these particular schools they must be freed from Clause 6. The attitude of the Government over that clause was not very reasonable, and it was because they dared not face the fury of their Nonconformist supporters a second time that they did not assent to this alteration. Although they were a Government full of courage, and ' master in their own house', they declined to grant an Amendment which he ventured to say no other Government would have refused.

MR. LANE-FOX (Yorkshire, W.R., Barkston Ash)

asked why if Clause 6 was absolutely innocuous the Government refused to accept the Amendment. For himself he believed that clause to be most harmful and mischievous, and therefore he supported the Amendment. He hoped that clause, which was most objectionable, would be used on every platform in the country against the Government.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said there was a certain want of lucidity about the Solicitor-General's argument. Indeed he made two excellent speeches which were contradictory. He had asked what was the use of using compulsion when it was never applied. If that argument had any meaning at all it meant that Clause 6 was innocuous. But why did the Government introduce it into the Bill if that was so? He could not see why the Government could not accept the Amendment which dealt with a state of things which were identical in regard to these schools both before and after Clause 6 was passed. It would be remembered that the Government left Clause 6 to the House, which showed that they thought the less they had to do with it the better for them. If there was any argument, as there certainly was, for leaving Clause 6 to the Committee, there was certainly a stronger argument for leaving this Amendment to the Committee. The whole position of the Government was that these schools were to remain as they were. If that was so they ought to be allowed to remain under the law as it was before Clause 6 was passed. Even if Clause 6 was popular with the Government and the House there would be a strong ground for not applying it to these interim schools. But when they found a difference of opinion in the Government upon it; when they found members of the Government voting against that clause, and when they found the Amendment to the clause rejected by a majority of only sixteen, in that condition of affairs surely the practice the Government had deliberately adopted in that case should be adopted in the case of the present Amendment. The anomaly would not last for more than two years. Let the hon. and learned Gentleman consistently carry out the ideas of his own Government and make the system of these schools conform as near as possible to the system suggested in the Amendment. If he could not accept the suggestion let the Committee remain free to say for itself whether Clause 6 should apply to these schools.

DR. MACNAMARA

said that in his opinion the merits of Clause 6 did not arise. The intention of the Government was to continue these schools during this short period as under the Act of 1902. The difficulty arose owing to these schools being provided schools. If the first three lines of the Clause remained, not only would the Amendment which had been moved exclude these schools from Clause 6, but other Amendments would exclude them from Clause 7. What was wanted was the introduction of words which would in terms continue these schools as under the Act of 1902. He thought the clause should be recast. The sooner that that was expressed in terms the better for the schools.

MR. GEORGE WHITE (Norfolk. N.W.)

said this clause affected the rural districts far more than the urban districts, and he therefore urged the Government not to yield on this point. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition had over and over again admitted that the position occupied by these schools under the Act of 1902 was very unfair and anomalous. That being so why should they continue it a moment longer than necessary? This was one of the exceptions that they should remove with the least possible delay. He hoped the Government would resist the Amendment.

MR. LEIF JONES

said he could not see that they had really been landed in the great difficulty suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition with regard to this Amendment. The idea of the Government was to carry on these schools in such a way that no injury would be done to them if the owners decided to carry them on themselves hereafter. And no harm would be done to them by setting up at once the permanent arrangement under which they would have to be carried on at the end of the two years. No real grievance could be alleged by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite owing to there being no official to secure the attendance of the children at the religious instruction. The effect of the section would be that a system would be set up at once which would in any case be the permanent system of the school at the end of two years. He could not see that any harm would be done by this procedure.

MR. BRIDGEMAN

said the hon. Member for N.W. Norfolk had directly invited the Government to break the pledge given by the President of the Board of Education earlier in the day, and therefore the Committee ought to hear from a representative of the Government either that they were going to keep the pledge given, or some argument from them to show that this was not a breach of it. When debating a previous Amendment the right hon. Gentleman told the Committee they ought not to ask for any payment on the ground that the Church schools were going to be carried on in the same way as they had hitherto been carried on, and everything the Church people held dear in the teaching was to be preserved during the time this clause was in operation. It had now been pointed out that what they regarded as most important was going to be taken away, and so far from leaving the schools in the same position as they were before the introduction of this Bill, they would be placed in a much worse position. The Government must recognise that if they did not accept this Amendment they would break the pledge which the right hon. Gentleman gave earlier in the afternoon.

LORD MORPETH

said that Clause 6 was the most un-educational clause of the most un-educational Bill introduced into this House during the last thirty years. Under this clause three-quarters of an hour a day was going to be lost to thousands of the children of the country. He supported the Amendment because if it was carried that time would be saved. It was of the greatest importance in his opinion that a contrast should be set up in order that the country should have an opportunity of seeing the working of the schools under Clause 6 as compared with the working of the other schools. They would then see that Clause 6 was un-educational, reactionary, and bad.

LORD BALCARRES

said the hon. Member for N.W. Norfolk objected to this Amendment on grounds which were incompatible with the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education. So far as the Committee was concerned, everybody accepted the statement that the object of the clause was to put the suspensory schools during the two or three years of transition in precisely the same conditions as they were now under. The President of the Board of Education had said it would be a gross injustice to alter the continuity of religious instruction in these schools, on the ground that in two or three years from now they might be taken over by the local education authority on the one hand, or else that the local education authority might say that they found they could get on better with new schools and that they would not take over these schools. Whether they agreed with the Bill or not they must admit that that was a reasonable line to take up. The Government supported the last Amendment on the ground that it avowedly was to keep the schools in the position they now occupied, and that being so, it was not possible on logical grounds to decline to accept this Amendment. He had gathered from the observations of some hon. Gentlemen that Clause 6 was inoperative; that Clause 6 being passed, these schools would not thereby be affected. He was unable to understand that, because Clause 6 was obviously put in the Bill for some purpose. The object of this clause being to maintain the schools in precisely the position they now occupied he could not understand why the Government should exclude from the provisions of Clause 10 the Clause 6 schools.

VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGH

thought it was only fitting that they should have a clear reason why the Government opposed this Amendment, and some further explanation ought to be given by someone more closely connected with the Department of Education. It was true that Clause 6 had been discussed, but not fully, and that was the case with a good many other clauses in the Bill. Clause 6 aimed at the religious education of the country, and would strike out religion from the schools. He hoped the Parliamentary Secretary would see his way to give a clear indication of the views of the Government with regard to the reasons why they would not accept the Amendment.

MR. NAPIER (Kent, Faversham)

said that although he was strongly opposed to Clause 6 he could not vote for the Amendment. The. clause had nothing to do with the schools; it was concerned with the parents. When one was establishing a general law affecting people how was it possible to except from its scope parents who might send their children to a particular school?

SIR E. CARSON

said the extraordinary speech to which they had just listened necessitated some observations. He failed to follow the frame of mind of the hon. Member for Faversham, who said that he was opposed to Clause 6 and yet desired that it should be applied to the particular schools dealt with in that clause, but not to the State schools. This meant that the hon. Member considered that Clause 6 was harmful in the permanent system of the country, but not harmful in the case now under consideration. That was a frame of mind which resulted from the conscience of the hon. Member on a previous occasion having got a holiday and not having a holiday on this occasion. The distinction which the hon. Member had drawn that Clause 6 applied to parents and not to schools could not be maintained. When parents had once been encouraged not to send their children during the hours of religious instruction, it would be impossible to restore them to the frame of mind in which they regarded it as part of their duty to insist on their children's attendance. If the policy announced as the policy of the Government by the President of the Board of Education was to be carried out the Amendment ought to be accepted. If it was not carried out, it would be practically a breach of faith.

SIR W. ROBSON

said there never was a charge put forward upon less foundation than that which had just been made. No man in the House was less likely than the President of the Board of Education to commit a breach of faith. Was it to be supposed that to withdraw compulsion would break the continuity of religious teaching? He did not think so ill of religious teaching in the denominational schools and of the parents who sent their children to them as to believe that that would be the result. How unjust that accusation was would be seen when they considered what the right hon. Gentleman was speaking of at the time. He was dealing with the very question of the temporary continuity of religious instruction which he said he did not desire to break. He did not say that there was going to be no change whatever in the condition of the schools during the operation of this clause. Members of the Opposition ought to be a little more careful before using such phrases as a " breach of faith "; such accusations ought not to be made recklessly.

MR. WILLIAM REDMOND (Clare, E.)

thought the Government ought to accept the Amendment. If the Bill failed to satisfy the expectations of its best friends it would be almost entirely because of Clause 6. To say that there should be religious teaching, but that that teaching was of so little importance that it need not necessarily be given, was to insult the feelings of a great many people. A child would be compelled by law to attend geography lessons and learn where Birmingham was, for instance, but when any one wanted to teach him anything about Heaven he might stay in bed and not go to school. This was simply turning religious teaching into ridicule, and it would be far better to say that there should be no religious teaching at all. He thought it would be found that in future the real opposition of this Bill would centre round Clause 6, and in order to mitigate that danger he urged the Government to make a small concession by agreeing to the proposal that Clause 6 should not be operative in the case of these schools.

MR. COMPTON RICKETT (Yorkshire, W.R., Osgoldcross)

said the Government by the introduction of Clause 6 into the Bill had merely tabulated and made law that which had grown to be customary. Why then should the Committee accept the Amendment, especially as this privilege of compulsion could only continue for a matter of two years? After the end of that time tin; schools would either lapse into private certificated schools or become public schools under the operation of the general law. No doubt in some parishes there would be little ground for complaint, but in many parishes of England there was a number of parents that dared not use the conscience clause, and he did not think it was desirable that either Party in the House should continue the form of compulsion for even two years longer. If the Amendment were adopted, it would be known throughout the country that compulsion might be safely disregarded. After a period of disuse, would any hon. Member opposite suggest that a compulsory attendance upon the religious lesson could be put in force? If it could never become operative, surely the Opposition did not desire to retain a mere bogey by means of which to effect their end ! It was better that hon. Gentlemen opposite should rely upon those numerous parents who had sent petitions to every member of the House assuring him of their fidelity to the schools and of their passion for religious education. Hon. Members on the Ministerial side had treated these petitioners seriously. If that were so, parents could be depended upon to send their children to the denominational school for their catechism.

MR. PIKE PEASE (Darlington)

said this was a question of extreme importance. The real point was not so much that which had been raised as whether there should be any alteration in regard to the schools during the temporary period. They all wanted the children in the schools to receive religious instruction, but if the arrangement suggested was made there was a likelihood that those facilities would not be real in the future, because many of the children would get into the habit of not attending the school during the time of religious instruction. It was difficult to see under this Bill how 80 per cent. of the parents of the children would be likely to vote for facilities being granted.

VISCOUNT HELMSLEY

said it would appear rather extraordinary in the country if the Government now refused to accept the Amendment and thereby made Clause 6 obligatory, when they had not even sufficient affection for that clause when it was before the Committee to make it a Government question. A distinct pledge had been given by the Minister in charge of the Bill that religious instruction should be given exactly as before in the schools during the two years of transition. It was on that ground, and on that ground alone, that the right hon. Gentleman had resisted the Amendment dealing with that particular point. It was extraordinary to be asked to break the pledge without a word of explanation on the subject. While the right hon. Gentleman was temporarily absent from the House the Parliamentary Secretary sat in his place in Sphinx-like silence, and nothing would induce him to answer the point raised by his hon. friend. He appealed to the Minister of Education now that he had returned to his seat, to give some further explanation of what he proposed to do on the subject.

MR. HELME (Lancashire, Lancaster)

said that hon. Members who were needlessly holding the Minister of Education to his words must certainly admit that his promise did not go further than the appointment of teacher. They were now asking that school attendance officers should be employed to compel the children to attend these schools at an hour when sectarian teaching would be given although the Committee had decided to alter the whole system of compulsory attendance by Clause 6, which would be frustrated if this proposal became law. Supposing even that Clause 6 was struck out of the Bill in another place—did anyone suppose that the House of Commons would in future allow the schools to be conducted without a stringent conscience clause— absolutely operative?—the want of this had been the cause of all the mischief in the past. He did not think hon. Members on the Opposition side were justified in making such a charge against the right hon. Gentleman as they did—and he held that officers should not be compelled so to act in respect to schools which might or might not in a few months be handed over—in matters of conscience they should not be exceptionally treated.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

, who was received with cries of " Divide, divide," pointed out that the duty of the school attendance officer was to secure that the attendance was such as to obtain the Parliamentary grant, and, as no Parliamentary grant was given for religious instruction, he had to see that the children attended school during the hours devoted to secular instruction.

MR. COMPTON RICKETT

Where does the compulsion come in?

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said the local authority determined by by-law the time during which the children were to attend school and that included the time devoted to religious instruction. Whether Cowper-Temple or denominational instruction was given the children would still be liable to attend, or else they would lose prizes, or be liable to punishment for unpunctuality. The matter was entirely under the control of the local authority, and there, was no compulsion except the desire of the parent that the child should be punctual and of the child to avoid the penalties of unpunctuality. The objection to Clause 6 was that, so far from stereotyping the existing practice, it ostentatiously announced that, in the view of this Parliament and of the Government, it was rather undesirable that children should be present during religious instruction. Clause 6 did create the impression that parents were invited to keep their children away from school during the time devoted to religious instruction. It had been promised that during the time which would intervene before an arrangement was made, or a scheme obtained, the school would be conducted precisely as it would have been if it had remained a voluntary school. That could not be if the children were invited to stay away during the time of religious instruction. He thought there was strong reason for asking that it should be explicitly stated that Clause 6 should

not apply to those schools which were, as it were, in a state of suspended animation, during which they were to remain precisely as before the Bill was introduced.

MR. MIDDLEMORE (Birmingham, N.)

—(who was received with cries of "Divide")—said he had not intervened often in the debates on this Bill. When he had done so he had been treated with some amount of rudeness, and he would rise on this occasion if only to make a protest against the less than courteous interruptions which were made when his hon. friend the Member for Oxford University rose. This was an Amendment of very great moment indeed, and it ought not to be slurred over. Unless it were carried, thousands of children who had been in the habit of attending religious instruction would cease to do so, and the whole tone of the schools would be altered. The continuity of the teaching would be broken, and the pledge given by the Minister for Education would not be fulfilled. They could not treat religion as an indifferent matter.

Question put.

Committee divided:—Ayes, 110; Noes, 258. (Division List No. 208).

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork,N.E.) Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galw'y Lane-Fox, G. R.
Acland-Hood,Rt.Hn.SirAlex.F Dolan, Charles Joseph Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Donelan, Captain A. Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Arkwright, John Stanhope Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lowe, Sir Francis William
Ashley, W. W. Duffy, William J. Lundon, W.
Balcarres, Lord Fell, Arthur MacVeagh. Jeremiah (Down,S.
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N.) Field, William M'Iver,SirLewis(Edinb'gh,W.)
Beach, Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. M'Kean, John
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Flavin, Michael Joseph M'Killop, W.
Bignold, Sir Arthur Flynn, James Christopher Magnus, Sir Philip
Blake, Edward Forster, Henry William Meagher, Michael
Boland, John Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) Middlemore,JohnThrogmorton
Bowles, G. Stewart Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Mooney, J. J.
Bridgeman, W. Clive Ginnell, L. Murphy, John
Brotherton, Edward Allen Haddock, George R. Nield, Herbert
Burke, K. Haviland- Halpin, J. Nolan, Joseph
Carlile, E. Hildred Hayden, John Patrick O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ryMid
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hazleton, Richard O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Castlereagh, Viscount Helmsley, Viscount O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E. Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Clancy, John Joseph Hills, J. W. O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Cogan, Denis J. Hogan, Michael O'Hare, Patrick
Condon, Thomas Joseph Houston, Robert Paterson O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Courthope, G. Loyd Hunt, Rowland O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N.
Craik, Sir Henry Kennaway, Rt.Hn.Sir John H. O'Malley, William
Crean, Eugene Kennedy, Vincent Paul O'Mara, James
Cullinan, J. Kilbride, Denis O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Delany, William King, SirHenrySeymour(Hull) O'Shee, James John
Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Valentia, Viscount
Pickersgill, Edward Hare Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Walrond, Hon, Lionel
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, .Mid)
Power, Patrick Joseph Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne Soames, Arthur Wellesley Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Rawlinson, John Frederick P. Starkey, John R. Young, Samuel
Redmond, John E.(Waterford) Stone, Sir Benjamin
Redmond, William (Clare) Sullivan, Donal TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Remnant and Mr. Burdett-Coutts.
Roberts, S. (Sheffield,Ecclesall) Talbot, Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.
Roche, John (Galway, East) Thornton, Percy M.
NOES.
Adkins, W. Ryland Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Illingworth, Percy H.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Cowan, W. H. Jacoby, James Alfred
Allen,A. Acland (Christchurch) Crombie, John William Johnson, John (Gateshead)
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Crooks, William Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)
Baker Sir John (Portsmouth) Crosfield, A. H. Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Dalziel, James Henry Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Davies, David(MontgomeryCo. Kearley, Hudson E.
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Davis, Ellis William (Eifion) Laid law, Robert
Barker, John Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Lamb, Ernest H.(Rochester)
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lambert, George
Barnard, E. B. Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.) Lamont, Norman
Beauchamp, E. Dickinson, W.H.(S.Pancras,N.) Lea, HughCecil(St.Pancras,E)
Beaumont. W. C. B. (Hexham) Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Leese, SirJoseph F.(Accrington)
Beck, A. Cecil Dobson, Thomas W. Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich
Bell, Richard Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness) Lever, W.H.(Cheshire,Wirral)
Bellairs, Carlyon Duncan, J. H. (York. Otley) Levy, Maurice
Benn,SirJ. Williams(Devonp'rt Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Lewis, John Herbert
Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo. Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Lough, Thomas
Berridge, T. H. D. Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Lupton, Arnold
Bertram, Julius Edwards, Frank (Radnor) Luttrell, Hugh Fownes
Bethell, J. H.(Essex, Romford) Elibank, Master of Lynch, H. B.
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Billson, Alfred Essex, R. W. Macdonald, JM (FalkirkB'ghs
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Everett, R. Lacey Maclean, Donald
Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff) Fenwick, Charles Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Black, ArthurW.(Bedfordshire) Ferens, T. R. M'Arthur, William
Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire,N. E.) Findlay, Alexander M'Callum, John M.
Bottomley, Horatio Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter M'Crae, George
Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) Fuller, John Michael F. M'Kenna, Reginald
Brace, William Fullerton, Hugh M'Micking, Major G.
Branch, James Gibb, James (Harrow) Maddison, Frederick
Brigg, John Gill, A. H. Mallet, Charles E.
Brocklehurst, W. D. Glendinning, R. G. Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Brodie, H. C. Goddard, Daniel Ford Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)
Brooke, Stopford Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Marnham, F. J.
Brunner. J. F. L.(Lancs.,Leigh) Greenwood, Hamar (York) Masterman, C. F. G.
Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen Griffith, Ellis J. Menzies, Walter
Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs) Grove, Archibald Micklem, Nathaniel
Buckmaster, Stanley O. Gulland, John W. Molteno, Percy Alport
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Money, L. G. Chiozza
Burnyeat, J. D. W. Hall, Frederick Montagu, E. S.
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Buxton, Rt.Hn.SydneyCharles Hardie, J.Keir(Merthyr Tydvil) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Byles, William Pollard Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Morse, L. L.
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hart-Davies, T. Murray, James
Cawley, Frederick Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Myer, Horatio
Chance, Frederick William Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Napier, T. B.
Cheetham, John Frederick Hedges, A. Paget Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Helme, Norval Watson Nicholls, George
Churchill, Winston Spencer Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Nicholson,Charles N.(Doncast'r
Clarke, C. Goddard Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Norman, Henry
Cleland, J. W. Higham, John Sharp Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Clough, W. Holden, E. Hopkinson Nuttall, Harry.
Clynes, J. R. Hooper, A. G. Parker, James (Halifax)
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Hope, John Deans (Fife,West) Partington, Oswald
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Hope, W. Bateman(SomersetN. Paul, Herbert
Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W. Horniman, Emslie John Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)
Corbett, CH.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hyde, Clarendon Porks, Robert William
Philipps, Col.Ivor(S'thampton Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)
Philipps, J.Wynford(Pembroke Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney
Pollard, Dr. Shipman, Dr. John G. Waterlow, D. S.
Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh,Central) Silcock, Thomas Ball Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Price, RobertJohn(Norfolk,E.) Simon, John Allsebrook White George (Norfolk)
Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie White, J. D.(Dumbartonshire)
Radford, G. H. Soares, Ernest J. White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Raphael, Herbert H. Spicer, Albert Whitley,J.H. (Halifax)
Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Stewart, Halley (Greenock) Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro') Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) Wiles, Thomas
Rees, J. D. Strachey, Sir Edward Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Rendall, Athelstan Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Williams,Llewelyn(C'rm'rth'n
Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n Stuart, James (Sunderland) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth
Richardson, A. Summerbell, T. Williamson, A.
Rickett, J. Compton Taylor, John W. (Durham) Wills, Arthur Walters
Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe) Wison, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Robertson, SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd Thomasson, Franklin Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.)
Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Thompson, J.W.H.(SomersetE. Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Robinson, S. Torrance, A. M. Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Robson, Sir William Snowdon Ure, Alexander Winfrey, It.
Roe, Sir Thomas Verney, F. W. Wodehouse,Lord(Norfolk, Mid
Rogers, F. E. Newman Vivian, Henry Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Runciman, Walter Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Walsh. Stephen TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Schwann, Sir C.E. (Manchester) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Sears, J. E. Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)
Shackleton, David James Wardle, George J.
SIR HENRY CRAIK (Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities)

moved an Amendment providing that the local education authority should pay the salaries of the teachers during the whole time that the school was open, including the time set apart for religious instruction. He said the object of the Amendment was to attain what, he thought, the Minister of Education would agree were essential points. First of all, it would give clearness of language and thus make it possible to understand exactly what they were doing. The principle involved was a very simple one, but it was perfectly clear that they should come to an understanding upon it, and that it should not be left to the interchange of assurances on one side or the other which were sure to result in charges, naturally resented on both sides, of bad faith. The conditions which regulated the occupation of these schools were to be in force from the beginning of the year 1908, possibly to the end of the year 1909, and during that interval the position of those schools would have an important and lasting effect on the education of the country. They had the assurance that there would be repeated in all respects in those schools the course, the complexion, the style and colour of the education which had hitherto been given in them. No one would contradict him in saying that from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman they had arrived at a perfectly clear understanding on that point. But misunderstandings might, easily arise, as had been shown by the hon. Member for North Camber-well, who spoke with so much knowledge and experience, and who had shown that in regard to Clause 2 the interpretation thereof had been made by some hon. Members in an entirely different sense from that of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Education. And he was obliged to say that his reading of the clause, before he heard the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman, agreed with that of the hon. Member for North Camberwell.

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

said that if the hon. Member would look at the Amendment he would see that the question before the Committee was that the salaries of the teachers should be paid by the local education authorities.

HENRY CRAIK

said that he did not intend to go beyond the point raised by the Amendment. What he wanted was to make it explicit that the payment of the teachers in respect of religious education should be made perfectly clear.

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

said that the hon. Member was making a Second Reading speech on the question of religious instruction, and was therefore out of order.

SIR HENRY CRAIK

said that with all respect he had simply referred to the necessity of perfect clearness as to the guarantees which were to be given for the carrying on of those schools as heretofore.

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

said that the guarantees had nothing to do with the Amendment before the Committee, which referred simply to whether the salaries of the teachers during the time the school was open should be paid by the local authority or not.

SIR HENRY CRAIK

said that he would not refer any further to that point, since it seemed to the Deputy-Chairman that he was travelling out of order. But they had been told that afternoon by the Minister for Education that certain things would be secured to denominationalists by this clause with regard to the two years' existence of these schools. His object was to put in the clause not a vague understanding but something definite in black and white. That was the reason for his Amendment, and he urged on the right hon. Gentleman the extreme necessity there was to be perfectly definite as to the provisions of the Bill.

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

said he really called the hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that he was travelling far beyond the limits of his Amendment, which was that the salaries of the teachers should be paid by the local education authority, and by no one else.

SIR HENRY CRAIK

said that it would not do to trust to the local education authorities to provide for the payment of the salaries of the teachers as long as the schools were open. The Solicitor-General had said that they must trust the local education authorities, while the hon. Member for Leek said that they ought not to have any understanding at all on the matter. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman if he did not think that a clear and definite understanding as to the payment of salaries ought to be put into this clause of the Bill, otherwise the salaries of the teachers might be reduced. Had they any security that the local education authorities, which the Solicitor-General said they should trust, would not follow the example of the education authority of the West Riding of Yorkshire? It was for the sake of the President of the Board of Education himself that he thought his Amendment should be adopted because when the right hon. Gentleman had given not a concession, but a clear interpretation of his own Bill, he had been told by hon. Gentlemen behind him that he was giving away the Bill.

Amendment proposed— To add after the words last inserted in line 8, the words ' while the schoolhouse is so used the local education authority shall pay the salaries of the teachers during the whole time the school is open, including the time set apart for religious instruction. ' "—(Sir Henry Craik.)

Question proposed, " That these words be there added."

MR. BIRRELL

said that this Amendment was absolutely unnecessary. The salaries of the teachers would be paid by the local education authority as heretofore. He described as unfair the references that had been made to the case of the West Riding of Yorkshire. The West Riding of Yorkshire, acting under legal advice, was told that it was justified in taking a particular line of action on a construction of the Act of 1902. He was advised that the legal advice given to the West Riding County Council was wrong. The matter went into Court, and the Judges agreed with his advisers rather than with those of the county council. The council immediately assented to the decision of the Court and had expressed their willingness to abide by it and had intimated that they did not intend to carry the matter any further. He saw no reason why that matter should be brought against the West Riding County Council, unless it was a crime to act upon counsel's opinion. The salaries of these teachers would be paid by the local education authority.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

was quite sure that his hon. friend in introducing this Amendment had no more desire than he had to cast any reflection upon the County Council of the West Riding of Yorkshire. It was a body with whom he had had a good many differences while he was at the Education Department, but it was a body for whom he had a regard owing to the efforts which it had made to improve the secondary education i

its area. All that his hon. friend and all that those on the Opposition side of the House desired, was that the meaning of this subsection should be made perfectly clear in the Bill itself. He thought there might be greater difficulties in regard to the construction of this clause than there were in regard to the Act of 1902, the wording of which had led the County Council of the West Riding of Yorkshire into the position which they took up. In view of the provisions of Clause 6, which put religious instruction out of school hours, and of Clauses 3 and 4, which excluded the teacher from giving denominational religious teaching in the school, there would be greater difficulty in regard to this Bill than there was in regard to its predecessor, and all he wished was that the meaning should be clearly expressed so that no other deserving local authority might be led by counsel's opinion into the trap into which the West Riding County Council no doubt unwittingly fell. For himself he did not cast any slur upon that county council.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE,) Haddington

You menaced them.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

I make no complaint in regard to this particular matter, although I had many differences with them. The hon. Baronet went on to say that although there were other matters in regard to which he attached blame to this county council, yet in this particular matter he recognised that all they had done was to act upon a view of the law which was wrong. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would let them know clearly what his view of the construction of the clause was, because for his part he could not see any reason for his refusal to accept the Amendment of his hon. friend, and put in black and white what was his expressed intention.

MR. LANE-FOX (Yorkshire, W.R., Barkston Ash)

said that as a member of this much maligned local authority, he thought it had been extremely hardly treated. The right hon. Gentleman had in effect alluded to it as being a poor thing which was misled by its legal advisers. He thought they all ought to sympathise with it on that ground. He did not think it was a slur upon its moral character that it was so misled, and everybody admitted that the council acted honestly, in good faith and from conscientious motives. They were mistaken and wrong, but they acted with the intention of carrying out what they believed to be right. At the same time, speaking on behalf of a great many poor teachers in the West Riding of Yorkshire, he must say that this mistaken action had resulted in inflicting quite unnecessary hardship upon a great many poor teachers. It was, therefore, important that this matter should be put right and that such a proceeding should not be possible in the future. In endeavouring to carry out a propaganda involving sectarian strife, this body inflicted a great injury upon people who could ill afford the money of which they were deprived. Although he believed the county council were conscientious, he thought the Committee should do their best to prevent the recurrence of such an incident, and that his hon. friend was justified in raising the question. He welcomed the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman that it was impossible for such a proceeding to happen again in the future.

MR. RAWLINSON (Cambridge University)

said there was not the slightest doubt that they were all agreed upon the meaning which it was intended should be placed upon this subsection, and that was that the local education authority should pay the teachers their full salaries. The words which created a doubt, however, were those which provided that while a schoolhouse was used under the section " the same conditions and provisions shall apply under this Act as where an arrangement is made for the use of a schoolhouse." If those words were read strictly, there was not the slightest doubt that the managers of the schoolhouse and not the local education authority would have to pay the teachers for the religious instruction given during school hours. As the words of the section were capable of the construction put upon them by the mover of the Amendment, was there, he asked, any harm in accepting his words.

LORD HELMSLEY (Yorkshire, N.R., Thirsk)

said the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman was the strongest justification for the Amendment. If a powerful local body took up a strong position it would be difficult to deal with this matter, and it was important that no room should be left for misconception or misinterpretation. The reason why the Amendment was not to be accepted seemed to be that it would lay the right hon. Gentleman open to the charge of giving a concession to the Opposition. The Amendment was purely a verbal one, and he could not see why if these salaries were to be paid by the local authority it should not be stated in the Bill. Considering that the people who had to construe and act upon these Acts of Parliament had not the opportunity of availing themselves of the facilities for interpreting them which were at the disposal of the right hon. Gentleman, he thought it would be far better to put these words in, so that there should not be such a fiasco as there was under the Act of 1902 of a local authority taking up a position and having to be put right by a Court of law. Would the right hon. Gentleman assure them that the salaries would be paid by the local authority?

SIR HENRY CRAIK

said he would withdraw his Amendment if the right hon. Gentleman assured him that it was unnecessary and impliedly contained in the Bill.

MR. BIRRELL

Salaries are paid by the local authority.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said that to say that the salaries were paid by the local authority was no doubt to state what was indisputable. There was no doubt that the payments which the teachers would get would be paid by the local authority. What they wanted to know was whether the salaries covered the whole time that the school was open. What they wanted to know was whether the teachers would get what they were entitled to.

r would the provisions be such as would give rise to the difference of opinion and the loss of time in recovering the amounts due to them, which had arisen in the West Riding of Yorkshire.

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. CALDWELL,) Lanarkshire, Mid.

proceeded to put the Question.

LORD HELMSLEY

asked whether they were to have an answer from the Government?

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

said as there was no answer he had put the Question.

MR. BIRRELL

I have answered.

SIR FREDERICK BANBURY (City of London)

said the right hon. Gentleman had always been distinguished for his courteous behaviour, and he would ask him whether it was courteous to refuse an answer?

MR. BIRRELL

I have given the answer again and again.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

If the right hon. Gentleman would give an answer, we might be spared the necessity for a division. Hon. Members will not allow us either to speak or to listen.

MR. J. WARD (Stoke-on-Trent)

asked whether it was in order for the hon. Gentleman to say the Committee would not listen to him when he had already spoken four times.

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

then put the Amendment, not observing Lord R. Cecil, who had risen, and who continued to stand, amid loud cries of " Answer," " Order," " Name," and Opposition cheers.

LORD R. CECIL

protested against the action of the Deputy-Chairman. [" Order."]

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I had put the Question.

While the Committee proceeded to a division,

LORD R. CECIL

, seated and with his hat on, said: I do not think this kind of way of conducting business is likely to conduce—[Cries of "Name," "Withdraw," and OPPOSITION cheers.]

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I put the question for the second time after it was obvious that no further answer was to be given, and I did not observe anyone rise.

LORD R. CECIL

You would not look.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 65; Noes, 333. (Division List No. 209.)

AYES.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Craik, Sir Henry Middlemore, Jn. Throgmorton
Arkwright, John Stanhope Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Nield, Herbert
Ashley, W. W. Faber, George Denison (York) Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington
Balcarres, Lord Fell, Arthur Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne
Barrie, H.T.(Londonderry,N.) Forster, Henry William Rawlinson, John Frederick P.
Beach, Hn. Michael HughHicks Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) Remnant, James Farquharson
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Bignold, Sir Arthur Haddock, George R. Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Bowles, G. Stewart Heaton, John Henniker Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Helmsley, Viscount Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Brotherton, Edward Allen Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) Starkey, John R.
Burdett-Coutts, W. Hills, J. W. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Carlile, E. Hildred Houston, Robert Paterson Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)
Carson,Rt. Hon. SirEdw. H. Hunt, Rowland Thornton, Percy M.
Castlereagh, Viscount Kennaway, Rt.Hn.Sir John H. Walker,Col. W.H.(Lancashire)
Cave, George King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull) Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lane-Fox, G. R. Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Coates, E.Feetham(Lewisham) Long,Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin,S.
Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow) Lowe, Sir Francis William TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and
Corbett, T. L. (Down North) M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh,W.)
Courthope, G. Loyd Magnus, Sir Philip Viscount Valentia.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E. Beauchamp, E. Blake, Edward
Abraham. William (Rhondda) Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) Boland, John
Adkins, W. Ryland Beck, A. Cecil Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire,N.E.)
Ainsworth, John Stirling Hell, Richard Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)
Allen, A.Acland(Christchurck) Bellairs, Carlyon Brace, William
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Benn, SirJ.Williams(Devonp'rt Branch, James
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Benn, W.(Tw'rHamlets,S.Geo. Brigg, John
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E. Berridge, T. H. D. Brocklehurst, W. B.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Bertram, Julius Brodie, H. C.
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford) Brooke, Stopford
Barker, John Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Brunner, J. F. L.(Lancs.,Leigh)
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Billson, Alfred Bryce, Rt. Hn.James(Aberdeen
Barnard, E. B. Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)
Barnes, G. N. Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff) Buckmaster, Stanley O.
Beale, W. P. Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire Burke, E. Haviland-
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Griffith, Ellis J. Maddison, Frederick
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Grove, Archibald Mallet, Charles E.
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Gulland, John. W. Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Buxton, Rt.Hn.SvdneyCharles Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)
Byles, William Pollard Hall, Frederick Marnham, F. J.
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Halpin, J. Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)
Cawley, Frederick Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis Masterman, C. F. G.
Chance, Frederick William Hardie, J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil) Meagher, Michael
Cheetham, John Frederick Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Monzies, Walter
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r Micklem, Nathaniel
Churchill, Winston Spencer Hart-Davies, T. Molteno, Percy Alport
Clancy, Joseph John Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Money, L. G. Chiozza
Clarke, C. Goddard Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Montagu, E. S.
Cleland, J. W. Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Montgomery, H. G.
Clough, W. Hayden, John Patrick Mooney, J. J.
Clynes, J. R. Hazelton, Richard Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Hedges, A. Paget Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Cogan, Denis J. Helme, Norval Watson Morse. L. L.
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Murphy, John
Collins,Sir Wm.J.(S.Pancras,W. Henry, Charles S. Murray, James
Condon, Thomas Joseph Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Myer, Horatio
Corbett,C.H(Sussex,E.Grinst'd Higham, John Sharp Napier, T. B.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hogan, Michael Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Holden, E. Hopkinson Nicholls, George
Cowan, W. H. Hooper. A. G. Nicholson, CharlesN.(Doncast'r
Crean, Eugene Hope, John Deans (Fife, W.) Nolan, Joseph
Cremer, William Randal Hope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N. Norman, Henry
Crombie, John William Horniman, Emslie John Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Crooks, William Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Nuttall, Harry
Crosfield, A. H. Hutton, Alfred Eddison O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary,Mid
Crossley, William J. Hyde, Clarendon O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Cullinan, J. Illingworth, Percy H. O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)
Dalziel, James Henry Jacoby, James Alfred O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Davies, David(Montgomery Co. Jardine, Sir J. O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Johnson, John (Gateshead) O'Hare, Patrick
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Jones, Leif (Appleby) O'Kelly,James(Roscommon,N.
Davies, W.Howell (Bristol, S.) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire O'Mara, James
Delany, William Kearley, Hudson E. O'Malley, William
Devlin, CharlesRamsay(Galway Kekewich, Sir George O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.) Kennedy, Vincent Paul O'Shee, James John
Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras N. Kilbride, Denis Parker, James (Halifax)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Laidlaw, Robert Partington, Oswald
Dobson, Thomas W. Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster Paul, Herbert
Dolan, Charles Joseph Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Pearce,Robert (Staffs, Leek)
Donelan, Captain A. Lambert, George Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Duffy, William J. Lamont, Norman Perks, Robert William
Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)
Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Lea, Hugh Cecil (St.Pancras,E.) Philipps, J.Wynford(Pembroke
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington) Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich Pollard, Dr.
Edwards, Frank (Radnor) Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) Power, Patrick Joseph
Elibank, Master of Levy, Maurice Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh,Central)
Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Lewis, John Herbert Price, RobertJohn(Norfolk,E.)
Essex, R. W. Lough, Thomas Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)
Eve, Harry Trelawney Lundon, W. Radford, G. H.
Everett, R. Lacey Lupton, Arnold Raphael, Herbert H.
Fenwick, Charles Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Ferens, T. R. Lynch, H. B. Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'
Field, William Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Findlay, Alexander Macdonald, J. M.(FalkirkB'ghs Redmond, William (Clare)
Flavin, Michael Joseph Maclean, Donald Rees, J. D.
Flynn, James Christopher Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Kendall, Athelstan
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down, S.) Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th
Fuller, John .Michael F. M'Arthur, William Richardson, A.
Fullerton, Hugh M'Callum, John M. Rickett, J. Compton
Gibb, James (Harrow) M'Crae, George Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Gill, A. H. M'Kean, John Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Ginnell, L. M'Kenna, Reginald Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)
Glendinning, R. G. M'Killop, W. Robertson, SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd
Goddard, Daniel Ford M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) M'Micking, Major G. Robinson, S.
Robson, Sir William Snowdon Stuart, James (Sunderland) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Roche, John (Galway, East) Sullivan, Donal Whitehead, Rowland
Roe, Sir Thomas Summerbell, T. Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Rogers, F. E. Newman Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Runciman, Walter Taylor, John W. (Durham) Wiles, Thomas
Russell, T. W. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n
Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) Thomasson, Franklin Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Thompson, J.W. H. (Somerset,E. Williamson, A.
Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) Torrance, Sir A. M. Wills, Arthur Walters
Sears, J. E. Toulmin, George Wilson, Henry J. (York. W.R.)
Seaverns, J. H. Ure, Alexander Wilson, John (Durham. Mid)
Seddon, J. Verney, F. W. Wilson, J. W.(Worcetersh, N.)
Shackleton, David James Vivian, Henry Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) Walsh, Stephen Winfrey, R.
Shipman, Dr. John G. Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) Wodehonse,Lord(Norfolk, Mid
Silcock, Thomas Ball Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Simon, John Allsebrook Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent) Young, Samuel
Soames, Arthur Wellesley Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) Yoxall, James Henry
Soares, Ernest J. Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney)
Spicer, Sir Albert Waterlow, P. S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Stewart, Halley (Greenock) Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) White, George (Norfolk)
Strachey, Sir Edward White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Question, " That Clause 10, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

LORD R. CECIL

rose to a point of order, and asked the Deputy-Chairman what was the proper course for him to follow under circumstances that had arisen before the division—

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (interposing)

That incident is closed. The Question now before the Committee is that Clause 10 as amended stand part of the Bill.

LORD E. CECIL

, who was received with loud Ministerial cries of " Order, order," and " Sit down," said he claimed he was entitled to speak on a point of order. He understood that the Deputy-Chairman had ruled that it was impossible for him to raise any question in connection with what had just occurred.

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

Yes, it is impossible to raise it now, the incident having been done with.

SIR E. CARSON

When would it be possible to raise it?

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

It is not for me to advise; it is for hon. Members to find that out for themselves. We must proceed with the Bill. I therefore put the question that Clause 10 as amended stand part of the Bill.

DR. MACNAMARA

said he wished to call the attention of the President of the Board of Education to the fact that at the close of sub-section (2), in order to give effect to his own desire that the schools should be continued on the 1902 conditions, he added words to the effect that if a vacancy arose the local authority should say that the teacher appointed should be one who would give the religious teaching which had been given in the school in the past. He thought his right hon. friend however should confine the addition to the head teachers, and should not have brought in the assistant teachers and pupil teachers for submission to any religious test upon appointment. He hoped on the Report stage his right hon. friend would see that the clause did carry out that in which they were all agreed, namely, that this should be a provisional scheme under which schools could be continued for a short period as they were under the 1902 Act. Would his right hon. friend bring the Amendment he had made absolutely into accord with the provisions of Section 7, subsection (5), of the Act of 1902, which did remove assistant and pupil teachers from the necessity of submitting to any religious test on their appointment?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

thought the hon. Gentleman had failed to remember some considerations which would perhaps modify his views. His account of the Act of 1902 was perfectly accurate, but the persons in whose judgment the discretion was left absolutely by the Act were the managers of the schools, a majority of whom were of the same denomination as the school of which they were managers. What the hon. Member for North Camberwell, or the Government under his guidance, must do, was to bring n a clause under which the managers would be left with the power of appointing the head teacher and the under teachers, and with the power of requiring those teachers to carry out the religious instruction for which they were engaged. That would fulfil the views of the hon. Gentleman, and it would fulfil his view. They could not continue these schools ad interim as they were in every respect, unless the Government "brought in a clause saying that they should go on exactly as if this Act had not passed. The latitude proposed to be given to the teachers was really a serious violation of the 1902 system, and no mere modification of the clause would put them precisely in the position of 1902.

MR. BIRRELL

said the Government were not prepared to restore the 1902 conditions for the simple purpose of these temporary schools. That would not do now, because the managers now were the local authority, who had no denominational bias. It would not be a fair thing, therefore, having regard to the temporary user of these schools, that the undenominational local authority should appoint the assistant teachers. He thought the words he had introduced were the best that, could be introduced in the circumstances, in order to carry out the view which the Government had always entertained of this clause.

Clause 11:—

MR. ASHLEY

moved to insert after "school" in line 15, the words "held or maintained under charitable trusts." The object of the Amendment was to save certain schools from the clutches of Clause 11, which said that an existing voluntary school should not be closed at any time between the passing of the Act and the 1st January, 1908, except with the sanction of the Board of Education. If his Amendment were carried it would exclude privately-owned schools from the scope of this clause. It seemed to be a very highhanded procedure to tell the owner he must either carry on the school until 1908, or the local authority would take the school from him and carry it on. This was all the thanks that a generous-minded man was to get who for many years past at great personal expense had helped forward the cause of both secular and religious education. He quite agreed that schools held under charitable trusts were in a different category, but in the case of a privately-owned school the State had no right to step in in the manner proposed by the clause. On the First Reading of the Bill the Minister for Education said that privately-owned schools were to be exempt from the purview of the Commission. The right hon. Gentleman said that the owners could close them altogether, pull them down, or do what they liked with them. Surely if they recognised that the private owner had these rights as regarded the Commission of three, they must also recognise that he had equal rights in respect of this clause. Under these circumstances they ought to exclude privately-owned schools from the clause.

Amendment proposed— In page 7, line 15, after the word 'school,' to insert the words ' held or maintained under charitable trusts.' "—(Mr. Ashley.)

Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."

SIR W. ROBSON

said the Committee would understand that they were here dealing not with schools held under charitable trusts, but principally, at all events, with schools which were in the hands of private owners. The object of the clause under review was to ensure that the local education authority should have some remedy, if the private owner chose between the date of the passing of the Act and January 1st, 1908, to close the school and leave the local education authority—it might be in a single school district—without any means of performing its duties to the children. Without this provision, the very moment that this Bill passed the private owner might close his school and there might be no other accommodation available in the particular parish or district, and the children would have to go without education altogether. Obviously the owner of the school must accept some responsibility, because he had allowed his private property to stand as the only school, it might be, and had availed himself of Parliamentary grants for the purpose of carrying on the school. It would be grossly inequitable, therefore, for him to be permitted, without a word of protest, to close the school without giving any kind of hint to the local education authority. The hon. Gentleman had said a man might do what he liked with his own, but in this case he was straining too much the rights of private ownership. It might be said that there had been a partnership, the owner having provided the building, and the State the maintenance. Any abrupt termination would not be the act of a generous-minded man, but would be a very unjust act, which he hoped the Committee would not allow.

LORD R. CECIL

said he was quite unconvinced by the speech of the Solicitor-General. The hon. and learned Gentleman had suggested that if an owner accepted public assistance for which public service had been rendered, he was to be prevented from closing his school because the Government chose to bring in a measure which they called an Education Bill. The Amendment was a right and just one, but he desired to ask his hon. friend whether it was really worth while moving Amendments and making speeches. Sometimes they had been fortunate enough to convert even the Government, but hon. Members behind the Treasury Bench thereupon rose in their places and denounced the Government for their weakness in meeting the Opposition. Even when they did not convince the Government they had very little opportunity of convincing the majority, because they remained outside the Chamber until a division was called, and then they voted against the Amendment merely on the ground that it was an Opposition Amendment. He did not think a debate under these conditions was very useful, besides which they were restricted not only by a very severe closure Resolution, but by irregular methods now used to stifle debate in this House. Under these circumstances he could not see there would be any advantage in his hon. friend further urging this Amendment, and he hoped he would withdraw it.

SIR E. CARSON

said he always thought it was a great pity that they should be unnecessarily irritated by the action of anybody in this House. These were matters on which they felt very strongly, and nobody ought to do anything to increase the irritation which necessarily arose. He hoped his hon. friend would persist in this Amendment, because he preferred to argue the question of the clause rather than that of the unfair treatment which they had been accustomed to from the other side in these debates. He would like to draw attention to the discrimination made between schools dedicated to a charitable trust and schools owned by an individual. In the case of a charitable trust the school would be carried on as heretofore, but if an individual owned a school which he had carried on as a denominational school the local education authority could apparently take it off his hands and refuse to carry it on as a denominational school. There was no reason why a distinction should be made between the case of an absolute owner and the case of a school held on trust. Was it fair to say to the absolute owner, " We are going to take your school, but we are not going to have the least regard to your wishes, and we shall carry on the school without the denominational instruction which has hitherto prevailed in it "? He was going to appeal to hon. Gentlemen opposite, but he would not do so; not because he did not believe that in their heart of hearts they would wish to do what was fair, but because he knew they were not allowed to do it. Whether they succeeded in having the proposals of the Bill made clear or not, it was their duty, at all events, to show to the House and the country that they had protested against interference with private property in the way contemplated by this clause.

MR. CAVE

said it was clear that Clause 11 was not confined to private owners. It also applied to schools held under charitable trusts. If a school of that kind was about to be closed, the local authority might take possession of it under Clause 11, and while holding possession under that clause would give Cowper-Temple teaching only or no religious teaching at all. That would go on down to January 1st, 1909. When that date arrived there might still be no agreement or scheme for taking over the school; and if so, Clause 10 would come into operation for the year 1909, and, the very religious teaching which had been suppressed would have to be restored. That was an extraordinary tangle. He thought the clause ought to be carefully reconsidered.

MR. PAUL

said it did astonish him to hear the Member for Dublin University, a great lawyer and greater Member of Parliament, say there was no difference between a school under private ownership and a school under a trust.

SIR E. CARSON

I said there was a great difference.

MR. PAUL

said the hon. and learned Gentleman stated that a school under private ownership was subjected to more delicate treatment than a school under a trust. He thought the object of hon. Gentlemen opposite was to maintain the sacredness of trusts. The hon. and learned Gentleman said there was no distinction between denominational and undenominational teaching. That was the question which divided the two sides of the House.

SIR E. CARSON

I never said anything of the kind.

MR. PAUL

said that on the Ministerial side they held that undenominational, unsectarian, or as he called, it Christian teaching, ought to be entitled to more consideration than denominational, or as he called it, the un-Christian teaching. [An HON. MEMBER: Why un-Christian?] He was surprised to hear the hon. and learned Gentleman express such a low opinion of trusts and such a high opinion of the schools which were under private ownership.

SIR E. CARSON

said the observations of the hon. Member were an absolute travesty of what he had said.

MR. ASHLEY

said that no argument had been advanced by either of the two responsible Ministers in reference to his Amendment.

MR. BIRRELL

said he had been absent for sixteen minutes to eat what it would be a travesty to call a dinner.

SIR E. CARSON

Why did you abolish the dinner hour?

MR. BIRRELL

said his hon. and learned friend the Solicitor-General had remainded in attendance during his absence. He felt it to be rather dangerous to take part in a discussion he had not heard. Private schools had received large grants of public money, and it would not have been a hardship, but a righteous act, if the legislature had made it a condition that, if they chose to take this public money, they should continue, and promise to continue, their schools as part of the school system. Anything more reasonable than that he could not conceive. Hon. Gentlemen had been so fed on public money that they had begun to think because they supplied the building —very generously, no doubt—they were entitled to claim the exclusive right of a private owner and to say that at any moment they would turn the building into a greenhouse or a stable, It would be most unreasonable after all these years, if they could not get the full dole, tha they should complain because the education authority wished to utilise the school for purposes of national education according to law.

MR. CARLILE (St. Albans)

I wish to point out that these men have not received public money.

SIR E. CARSON

said he did not think the right hon. Gentleman would have treated this question in the way he had done. All he had said was that the iniquitous private owners had received public grants.

MR. BIRRELL

I did not say " iniquitous."

SIR E. CARSON

The Government is penalising them because they received public grants.

MR. BIRRELL

The receipt of public money involves a public sense of duty.

SIR E. CARSON

said the Government was penalising these men because, having built schools, public money had been paid in respect of the public education given. Why should the absolute owners of the school be treated worse than the trustees? That was the whole question, and he hoped that the Solicitor-General would give a definite answer to the Committee. Why should the absolute owners of the school be treated worse than the trustees?

SIR W. ROBSON

said that if any owner, either a trustee owner or a private owner, who took advantage of his position after the passing of this Act, and before it came into operation, or anything could be clone under it, closed his school to the detriment of the locality, then, he thought, the consequences under Section 11 were by no means too severe.

MR. PAUL

said that he wished to apologise to the right hon. and learned Member for Dublin University if in what he had said he had been guilty of a " travesty " of the right hon. Gentleman's statement. It merely resulted from the humble attempt of a layman to understand the language of a great lawyer.

SIR E. CARSON

I entirely concur with the remark of the hon. Gentleman,

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said they still awaited an answer to the question why this distinction should be drawn between private owners and trustees in regard to the carrying on of the schools.

An HON. MEMBER

said that an owner was practically a trustee, and if he shut up his school in the way which had been suggested, he would be violating his trust.

MR. CAVE

proposed for an answer to this question whether a school taken over under Section 11 and carried on as an ordinary provided school until January 1st, 1909, would not, as from that date fall within Clause 10, and would it not thereupon become the duty of the local authority to revive the denominational teaching? He suggested that the difficulty might be met by introducing into Clause 11 the provisions of sub-section (2) of Clause 10, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consider this point before the report stage.

SIR W. ROBSON

said that the point would be very carefully considered, but he could not give an immediate answer.

MR. CARLILE

apologised for having intervened in the middle of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, but at the same time he should like the Committee to understand that the private owners did not receive, nor had they ever received, any public money. The private owners supplied the school free of charge, made any alterations required, and got no aid from the rates or taxes. The object of the owners of the private schools in being ready and willing to spend money on their schools was to secure continuity of religious instruction to the children.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 107; Noes, 309. (Division List No. 210.)

AYES.
Acland-Hood,Rt.Hn SirAlex.F. Faber, George Denison (York) Meysey-Thompson, E. C.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Fell, Arthur Middlemore, J. Throgmortor
Anstruther-Gray, Major Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Arkwright, John (Stanhope Fletcher, J. S. Morpeth, Viscount
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt. Hn.Sir H. Forster, Henry William Muntz, Sir Philip A.
Balcarres, Lord Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(CityLond.) Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Nield, Herbert
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Haddock, George R. Pease,Herbert Pike(Darlington
Banner, John S. Harmood- Hamilton, Marquess of Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Barrie,H.T.(Londonderry, N.) Hardy,Laurence(Kent,Ashf'rd Basch, Sir Frederic Carne
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. Ratcliff, Major R. F.
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hay, Hon. Claude George Rawlinson, John Frederick P.
Bignold, Sir Arthur Heaton, John Henniker Roberts, S. (Sheffield,Ecclesall)
Bowles, G. Stewart Helmsley, Viscount Ropner, Col. Sir Robert
Boyle, Sir Edward Hervey,F. W. F. (BurySEdm'ds Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury Salter, Arthur Clavell
Brotherton, Edward Allen Hills, J. W. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Bull, Sir William James Hornby, Sir William Henry Smith,Abel H- (Hertford.East)
Burdett-Coutts, W. Houston, Robert Paterson Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand
Butcher, Samuel Henry Hunt, Rowland Stanley,Hon.Arthur(Ormskirk)
Carlile, E. Hildred Kennaway, Rt.Hn. Sir JohnH Starkey, John R.
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Kenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hon.ColW Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.
Castlereagh, Viscount Keswick, William Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Cave, George King,SirHenry Seymour(Hull) Thornton, Percy M.
Cavendish, Rt.Hn. Victor C. W. Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Valentia, Viscount
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lane-Fox, G. R. Walker,Col.W.H. (Lancashire
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Cecil,Lord It. (Marylebone, E. Lee,ArthurH.(Hants., Fareham Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham) Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt. -Col. A.R. Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Long,Rt. Hn. WaltenDublin.S. Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Lowe, Sir Francis William Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Courthope, G. Loyd MacIver, David (Liverpool) Younger, George
Craik, Sir Henry M'Iver,SirLewis(EdinburghW.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Magnus, Sir Philip TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr. Ashley and Mr. Remnant.
Du Cros, Harvey Marks, H. H. (Kent)
Duncan,Robert(Lanark,Govan Mason, James F. (Windsor)
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork.N.E. Clarke, C. Goddard Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Cleland, J. W. Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward
Acland, Francis Dyke Clough, W. Groove, Archibald
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Clynes, J. R. Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill
Ainsworth, John Stirling Cobbold, Felix Thornley Gulland, John W.
Alden, Percy Cogan, Denis .J. Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Allen, A. Acland(Christchurch Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Haldane, Ht. Hon. Richard B.
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Collins,SirWmJ.(S.Pancras,W. Hall, Frederick
Armitage, R. Condon, Thomas Joseph Halpin, J.
Ashton, Thomas Gair Cooper, G. J. Harcourt, Right. Hon. Lewis
Asquith,Rt.Hon.HerbertHenry Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,EGrinst'd Hardie,J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil
Astbury, John Meir Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Cory, Clifford John Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)
Baker, JosephA.(Finsbury, E.] Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Cowan, W. H. Haslam, James (Derbyshire)
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)
Barker, John Crean, Eugene Hayden, John Patrick
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Cremer, William Randal Hazel, Dr. A. E.
Barnard, E. B. Crombie, John William Hazleton, Richard
Barnes, G. N. Crooks, William Hedges, A. Paget
Barran, Rowland Hirst Crosfield, A. H. Helme, Norval Watson
Beale, W. P. Crossley, William J. Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Beauchamp. K. Cullinan, J. Henry, Charles S.
Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne Dalziel, James Henry Herbert,Colonel Ivor (Mon.,S.)
Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) Davies,David(Montgomery Co. Herbert, T. Arnold(Wycombe
Beck, A. Cecil Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Higham, John Sharp
Bell, Richard Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Hobart, Sir Robert
Bellairs, Carlyon Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Benn,SirJ.Williams(Devonp'rt Davies, W.Howell (Bristol, S.) Hogan, Michael
Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo. Delany, William Holden, K. Hopkinson
Berridge, T. H. D. Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway Hooper, A. G.
Bertram, Julius Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh, Hope, John Deans (Fife, West
Bethell, J. H.(Essex, Romford) Dickinson.W.H. (St.Pancras,N. Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset,N
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Horniman, Emslie John
Billson, Alfred Dobsen, Thomas W. Horridge, Thomas Gardner
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Dolan, Charles Joseph Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff) Donelan, Captain A. Hyde, Clarendon
Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire Duffy, William J. Illingworth, Percy H.
Blake, Edward Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness Isaacs, Rufus Daniel
Boland, John Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Jacoby, James Alfred
Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire,N.E.) Dunn, A. Edward(Camborne) Jardine, Sir J.
Bottomley, Horatio Dunne, MajorE.Martin(Walsall Johnson, John (Gateshead
Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)
Brace, William Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Jones, Lief (Appleby)
Bramsdon, T. A. Edwards, Frank (Radnor) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire
Branch, James Elibank, Master of Kearley, Hudson E.
Brigg, John Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Kekewich, Sir George
Bright, J. A. Erskine, David C. Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Brocklehurst, W. B. Essex, R. W. Kilbride, Denis
Brodie, H. C. Eve, Harry Trelawney Kincaid-Smith, Captain
Brooke, Stopford Everett, R. Lacey King, Alfred John (Knutsfords
Brunner, J. F. L.(Lancs.,Leigh) Faber, G. H. (Boston) Kitson, Sir James
Bryce, Rt.Hn.James(Aberdeen Fenwick, Charles Laidlaw, Robert
Bryce, J. A.(Inverness Burghs Ferens, T. R. Lamb,EdmundG.(Leominster)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Ferguson, R. C. Munro Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)
Buckmaster, Stanley O. Field, William Lambert, George
Burke, E. Haviland- Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Lamont, Norman
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Findlay, Alexander Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Flavin, Michael Joseph Lea,Hugh Cecil (St.Pancras.E.)
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Flynn, James Christopher Leese,SirJosephF. (Accrington)
Buxton, Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Lever,A.Levy (Essex, Harwich
Byles, William Pollard Fuller, John Michael F. Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral}
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Fullerton, Hugh Levy, Maurice
Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnight Gibb, James (Harrow) Lewis, John Herbert
Cawley, Frederick Gill, A. H. Lough, Thomas
Chance, Frederick William Ginnell, L. Lundon, W.
Cheetham, John Frederick Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn Lupton, Arnold
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Glendinning, R. G. Luttrell, Hugh Fownes
Churchill, Winston Spencer Goddard, Daniel Ford Lyell, Charles Heny
Clancy, John Joseph Gooch, George Peabody Lynch, H. B.
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Macdonald,J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs Pearson,W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Mackarness, Frederic C. Perks, Robert William Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Maclean, Donald Philipps,Col.Ivor(S'thampton Sullivan, Donal
Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembrok Summerbell, T.
MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
M'Callum, John M. Pickersgill, Edward Hare Taylor, John W. (Durham)
M'Crae, George Pollard, Dr. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
M'Kean, John Power, Patrick Joseph Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)
M'Kenna, Reginald Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh,Central Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
M'Killop, W. Price,RobertJohn (Norfolk, E. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Priestley, Arthur (Grantham Thomas,David Alfred (Merthyr
M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford,E Thomasson, Franklin
M'Micking, Major G. Radford, G. H. Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset,E
Maddison, Frederick Rainy, A. Holland Tomkinson, James
Mallet, Charles E. Raphael, Herbert H. Torrance, Sir A. M.
Manfield, Harry (Northants) Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Toulmin, George
Mansfield,H. Rendall (Lincoln Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Marnham, F. J. Redmond,John E. (Waterford Ure, Alexander
Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Redmond, William (Clare) Verney, F. W.
Massie, J. Rees, J. D. Vivian, Henry
Meagher, Michael Rendall, Athelstan Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Menzies, Walter Renton, Major Leslie Wallace, Robert
Micklem, Nathaniel Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th Walsh, Stephen
Molteno, Percy Alport Richardson, A. Walters, John Tudor
Money, L. G. Chiozza Rickett, J. Compton Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.
Montagu, E. S. Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Montgomery, H. G. Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Ward, John(Stoke upon Trent)
Mooney, J. J. Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Wardle, George J.
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Robertson,Rt.Hon. E. (Dundee Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Robertson,SirG.Scott (Bradfrd Wason,Engene (Clackmannan
Morley, Rt. Hon. John Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Wason,JohnCathcart (Orkney)
Morrell, Philip Robinson, S. Waterloo, D. S.
Morse, L. L. Robson, Sir William Snowdon Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Murphy, John Roche, John (Galway, East) Whitbread, Howard
Myer, Horatio Roe, Sir Thomas White, George (Norfolk)
Napier, T. B. Rogers, F. E. Newman White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire
Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) Runciman, Walter White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Nicholls, George Russell, T. W. White, Patrick (Meath, North
Nicholson, CharlesN.(Doncast'r Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Whitehead, Rowland
Nolan, Joseph Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Norman, Henry Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Scarisbrick, T. T. L. Wiles, Thomas
Nuttall, Harry Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
O'Brien,Kendal(TipperaryMid Schwann,Sir C.E. (Manchester) Williams,Llewelyn(C'rm'rth'n
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Soars, J. E. Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Seaverns, J. H. Williamson, A.
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Seddon, J. Wills, Arthur Walters
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Shackleton, David James Wilson, Henry J.(York, W.R.)
O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh,N.)
O'Hare, Patrick Shipman, Dr. John G. Wilson, P. W.(St. Pancras,S.)
O'Kelly, James (Roscommon.N Silcock, Thomas Ball Winfrey, R.
O'Malley, William Simon, John Allsebrook Wodehouse,Lord(Norfolk,Mid
O'Mara, James Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John Wood, T. M'Kinnon
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Woodhouse,Sir J.T. (Huddersf'd
O'Shee, James John Soames, Arthur Wellesley Young, Samuel
Parker, James (Halifax) Soares, Ernest J. Yoxall, James Henry
Partington, Oswald Spicer, Sir Albert
Paul, Herbert Stewart, Halley (Greenock) TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal
Pearce, William (Limehouse) Strachey, Sir Edward

And, it being after half-past Ten of the clock, the Chairman proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 18th June, to put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of Clauses 11, 12, and 13.

Question put, "That Clause 11 stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:— Ayes, 395; Noes, 108. (Division List No. 211.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E. Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Glendinning, R. G.
Acland, Francis Dyke Churchill, Winston Spencer Goddard, Daniel Ford
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Clancy, John Joseph Gooch, George Peabody
Ainsworth, John Stirling Clarke, C. Goddard Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)
Alden, Percy Cleland, J. W. Greenwood, Hamar (York)
Allen A. Acland (Christchurch) Clough, W. Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Cobbold, Felix Thornley Grove, Archibald
Armitage, R. Cogan, Denis J. Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill
Ashton, Thomas Gair Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Gulland, John W.
Asquith, Rt.Hn. Herbert Henry Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Astbury, John Meir Condon, Thomas Joseph Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Cooper, G. J. Hall, Frederick
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury,E.) Corbett. CH.(Sussex,E.Grnist'd Halpin, J.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Cory, Clifford John Hardie,J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil)
Barker, John Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Cowan, W. H. Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)
Barnard, E. B. Craig, Herbert J.(Tynemouth) Hart-Davies, T.
Barnes, G. N. Crean, Eugene Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
Barron, Rowland Hirst Cremer, William Randal Harwood, George
Beale, W. P. Crombie, John William Haslam, James (Derbyshire)
Beauchamp, E. Crooks, William Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)
Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne Crossfield, A. H. Hayden, John Patrick
Beaumont, W C. B. (Hexham) Crossley, William J. Hazel, Dr. A. E.
Beck, A. Cecil Cullinan, J. Hazelton, Richard
Bell, Richard Dalziel, James Henry Hedges, A. Paget
Bellairs, Carlyon Davies,David (MontgomeryCo. Helme, Norval Watson
Benn,Sir J.Williams(Devonp'rt Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Henderson. Arthur (Durham)
Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo. Davies, M.Vaughan-(Cardigan) Henry, Charles S.
Berridge, T. H. D. Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon.,S.)
Bertram, Julius Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)
Bethell,J. H. (Essex,Romford) Delany, William Higham, John Sharp
Bethell, T.R.(Essex, Maldon) Devlin,Charles Ramsay(Galway Hobart, Sir Robert
Billson, Alfred Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N. Hogan, Michael
Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff) Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Holden, E. Hopkinson
Black, ArthurW. (Bedfordshire) Dobson, Thomas AV. Holland, Sir William Henry
Blake, Edward Dolan, Charles Joseph Hooper, A. G.
Boland, John Donelan, Captain A. Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)
Bolton,T.D. (Derbyshire,N.E.) Duffy, William J. Hope,W. Bateman(Somerset,N.
Bottolmey, Horatio Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness Horniman, Emslie John
Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Horridge, Thomas Gardner
Brace, William Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Bramsdon, T. A. Dunne, MajorE.Martin(Walsall Hyde, Clarendon
Branch, James Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Illingworth, Percy H.
Brigg, John Edwards, Enoch(Hanley) Isaacs, Rufus Daniel
Bright, J. A. Edwards, Frank Radnor Jacoby, James Alfred
Brocklehurst, W. D. Ellibank, Master of Johnson, John (Gateshead)
Brodie, H. C. Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)
Brooke, Stopford Erskine, David C. Jones,Sir D. Brynmor(Swansea)
Brunner, J.F.L. (Lanes.,Leigh) Essex, R. W. Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Bryce,Rt. H n. James(Aberdeen Eve, Harry Trelawney Jones,William (Carnarvonshire
Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs) Everett, R. Lacey Kearley Hudson E.
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Fenwick, Charles Kekewich, Sir George
Buckmaster, Stanley O. Ferens, T. R. Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Burke, E. Haviland- Fergusson,R. O. Munro Kilbride, Denis
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Field, William Kincaid-Smith, Captain
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Fiennes, Hon. Eustace King, Alfred John (Knutsford)
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Findlay. Alexander Kitson, Sir James
Buxton, Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles Flavin, Michael Joseph Laidlaw, Robert
Byles, William Pollard Flynn, James Christopher Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)
Causton.Rt.Hn.RichardKnight Fuller, John Michael F. Lambert, George
Cawley, Frederick Fullerton, Hugh Lamont, Norman
Chance, Frederick William Gibb, James (Harrow) Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Cheetham, John Frederick Gill, A. H. Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras,E.
Ginnell, L.
Leese,SirJosephF.(Accrington) O'Shee, James John Spicer, Sir Albert
Lover, A Levy(Essex,Harwich) Parker, James (Halifax) Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) Partington, Oswald Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Levy, Maurice Paul, Herbert Strachey, Sir Enward
Lewis, John Herbert Paulton, James Mellor Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Lough, Thomas Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Lundon, W. Pearce, William (Limehouse) Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Lupton, Arnold Pearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye) Sullivan, Donal
Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Perks, Robert William Summerbell, T.
Lyell, Charles Henry Philipps,Col. Ivor(S'thampton) Taylor, Austin (East Tosteth)
Lynch, H. B. Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Philipps, Owen C.(Pembroke) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Macdonald,J.M. (FalkirkB'ghs Pickersgill, Edward Hare Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury
Mackarness, Frederic C. Pollard, Dr. Tennant, H.J.(Berwickshire)
Maclean, Donald Power, Patrick Joseph Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Price, C.E.(Edinburgh,Central) Thomas, David Alfred(Morthyr
MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.) Price,Robert John(Norfolk, E.) Thomasson, Franklin
M'Arthur, William Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset,E
M'Callum, John M. Priestley, W.E.B.(BradfordE.) Tomkinson, James
M'Crae, George Radford, G. H. Torrance, Sir A. M.
M'Kean, John Rainy, A. Rolland Toulmin, George
M'Kenna, Reginald Raphael, Herbert H. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
M'Killop, W. Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Ure, Alexander
M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Ree, Walter Russell (Scarboro' Verney, F. W.
M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Redmond, John K. (Waterf'rd) Vivian, Henry
M'Micking, Major G. Redmond, William (Clare) Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Maddison, Frederick Rees, J. D. Wallace, Robert
Mallet, Charles E. Rendall, Athelstan Walsh, Stephen
Manfield, Harry (Northants) Renton, Major Leslie Walters, John Tudor
Mansfield,H. Rendall(Lincoln) Richards,Thomas(W.Monm'th) Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Marnham, F. J. Richards, F. (Wolverh'mpt'n) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Richardson, A. Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)'
Massie, J. Rickett, J. Compton Wardle, George J.
Meagher, Michael Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Menzies, Walter Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Micklem, Nathaniel Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
Molteno, Percy Alport Robertson, Rt.Hn.E. (Dundee) Waterlow, D. S.
Money, L. G. Chiozza Robertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Montagu, E. S. Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Whitbread, Howard
Montgomery, H. G. Robinson, S. White, George (Norfolk)
Mooney, J. J. Robson, Sir William Snowdon White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Roche, John (Galway, East) White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Roe, Sir Thomas White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Morley, Rt. Hon. John Rogers, F. E. Newman Whitehead, Rowland
Morrell, Philip Runciman, Walter Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Morse, L. L. Russell, T. W. Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Myer, Horatio Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Wiles, Thomas
Napier, T. B. Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Nicholls, George Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Williams, Llewelyn(Carm'rthn
Nicholson,CharlesN.(Doncast'r Scarisbrick, T. T. L. Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Nolan, Joseph Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) Williamson, A.
Norman, Henry Sehwann, Sir C.E.(Manchester) Wills, Arthur Walters
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Sears, J. E. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Nuttall, Harry Seaverns, J. H. Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
O'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary Mid Seddon, J. Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh.,N)
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Seely, Major J. B. Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
O'Connor, James (Wicklow.W. Shackleton,David James Winfrey, R.
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk,Mid
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.) Wood, T. M'Kinnon
O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) Shipman, Dr. John G. Woodhouse, SirJ.T(Hudd'rsfi'd
O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Silcock, Thomas Ball Young, Samuel
O'Hare, Patrick Simon, John Allsebrook Yoxall, James Henry
O'Kelly,James(Roscommon,N, Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
O'Malley, William Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
O'Mara, James Soames, Arthur Wellesley
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Soares, Ernest J.
NOES.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Ashley, W. W. Balfour,Rt Hn A. J.(CityLond.
Anstruther-Gray, Major Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hn. Sir H. Banbury, Sir Frederick George
Arkwright, John Stanhope Balcarres, Lord Banner, John S. Harmood-
Barrie, H.T. (Londonderry,N.) Hamilton, Marquess of Nield, Herbert
Beach, Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bignold, Sir Arthur Hay, Hon. Claude George Rasch, Sir Frederic Came
Bowles, G. Stewart Heaton, John Henniker Ratcliff, Major R. F.
Boyle, Sir Edward Helmesley, Viscount Rawlinson, John Frederic P.
Bridgeman, W. Clive Hervey,F.W.F. (BurySEdm'ds Remnant, James Farquharson
Brotherton, Edward Allen Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) Roberts,S.(Sheffield,Ecclesall)
Bull, Sir William James Hills, J. W. Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Burdett-Coutts, W. Hornby, Sir William Henry Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Butcher, Samuel Henry Houston, Robert Pateraon Salter, Arthur Clavell
Carlile, E. Hildred Hunt, Rowland Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Kennaway,Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone.W.)
Castlereagh, Viscount Kenyon-Slaney,Rt. Hn. Col.W. Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)
Cave, George Keswick, William Smith,Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Cavendish,Rt. Hn. Victor C.W. King,SirHenry Seymour (Hull) Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Starkey, John R.
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Lane-Fox, G. R. Talbot, Rt.Hn. J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.
Cecil, Lord K. (Marylebone,E.) Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)
Coates,E.Feetham (Lewisham) Lee, ArthurH.(Hants.,Fareham Thornton, Percy M.
Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col. A.R. Walker,Col.W-H. (Lancashire)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Courthope, G. Loyd Long Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin ,S.) Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Craik, Sir Henry Lowe, Sir Francis William Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- M'Iver, David (Liverpool) Wilson, A.Stanley (York, E.R.)
Du Cros, Harvey M'Iver,SirLewis(Edinburgh, W. Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Dunean,Robert (Lanark,Govan Magnus, Sir Philips Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Faber, George Denison (York) Marks, H. H. (Kent) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Fell, Arthur Mason, James F. (Windsor) Younger, George
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Meysey-Thompson, E. C.
Fletcher, J. S. MiddlemoreJohnThrogmorton TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir A. Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.
Forster, Henry William Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) Morpeth, Viscount
Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Muntz, Sir Philip A.
Haddock, George R. Nicholson, Wm. G. (Peterafield)

Clause 12 agreed to.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 397; Noes, 111. (Division List No. 212.)

AYES.
Abraham,William (Cork.N.E) Beaumont, Hubert (Eastbourne Brigg, John
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) Bright, J. A.
Acland, Francis Dyke Beck, A. Cecil Brocklehurst, W. B.
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Bell, Richard Brodie, H. C.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Bollairs, Carlyon Brooke, Stopford
Alden, Percy Benn,Sir J.Williams(Devonp'rt Brunner, J.F. L. (Lanes.,Leigh)
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Bonn, W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo. Bryce,Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen)
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Berridge, T. H. D. Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)
Armitage, R. Bertram. Julius Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn
Ashton, Thomas Gair Bethell, J. H (Essex, Romford) Buckmaster, Stanley O.
Asquith,Rt.Hn. Herbert Henry Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Burky, E. Haviland-
Astbury, John Meir Billson, Alfred Burns, Rt. Hon. John
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Burnyeat, W. J. D.
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Black, Alexander Wm.(Banff) Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Black,ArthurW. (Bedfordshire) Buxton.Rt.Hn. Sydney Charles
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Blake, Edward Byles, William Pollard
Barker, John Boland, John Carr-Gomm, H. W.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Bolton, T. D.(Derbyshire,N.E.) Causton,Rt. Hn. RichardKnight
Barnard, E. B. Bottomley, Horatio Cawley, Frederick
Barnes, G. N. Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) Chance, Frederick William
Barran, Rowland Hirst Brace, William Cheetham, John Frederick
Beale, W. P. Bramsdon, T. A. Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.
Beauchamp, E. Branch, James Churchill, Winston Spencer
Clancy, John Joseph Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs)
Clarke, C. Goddard Grove, Archibald Mackarness, Frederic C.
Cleland, J. W. Gulland, John W. Maclean, Donald
Clough, W. Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Macnamara Dr. Thomas J.
Cabbold, Felix Thornley Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.
Cogan, Denis J. Hall, Frederick M'Arthur, William
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Hal pin, J. M'Callum, John M.
Collins,Sir W.J.(S.Pancras,W. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis M'Crae, George
Condon, Thomas Joseph Hardie,J.Keir(Merthyr Tydvil) M'Kean, John
Cooper, G. J. Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) M'Kenna, Reginald
Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.) M'Killop, W.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hart-Davies, T. MLaren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)
Cory, Clifford John Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Harwood, George M'Micking, Major G.
Cowan, W. H. Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Maddison, Frederick
Craig, Herbert J.(Tynemouth Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Mallet, Charles E.
Crean, Eugene Hayden, Join Patrick Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Cremer, William Randal Hazel, Dr. A. E. Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)
Crombie, John William Hazleton, Richard Marnham, F. J.
Crooks, William Hedges, A. Paget Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)
Crosfield, A. H. Helme, Norval Watson Massie, J.
Crossley, William J. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Meagher, Michael
Cullinan, J. Honry, Charles S. Menzies, Walter
Dalziel, James Henry Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.) Micklem, Nathaniel
Davies,David(MontgomeryCo. Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Molteno, Percy Alport
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Higharn, John Sharp Money, L. G. Chiozza
Davies, M.Vaughan- (Cardigan) Hobart, Sir Robert Montagu, E. S.
Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Montgomery, H. G.
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Hogan, Michael Mooney, J. J.
Delany, William Holden, E. Hopkinson Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galway Holland, Sir William Henry Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Hooper, A. G. Morley, Rt. Hon. John
Dickinson, \V.H.(St.Pancras,N. Hope, John Deans(Fife, West) Worrell, Philip
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Hope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N. Morse, L. L.
Dobson, Thomas W. Horniman, Emslie John Myer, Horatio
Dolan, Charles Joseph Horridge, Thomas Gardner Napier, T. B.
Donelan, Captain A- Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Newnes, Sir G. (Swansea)
Duffy, William J. Hyde, Clarendon Nicholls, George
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness Illingworth, Percy H. Nicholson, Chas. N. (Poncast'r)
Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Isaacs, Rufus Daniel Nolan, Joseph
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Jacoby, James Alfred Norman, Henry
Dunne, MajorE. Martin(Walsall Jardine, Sir J. Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Johnson, John (Gateshead) Nuttall, Harry
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) O'Brien;Kendal(TipperaryMid)
Edwards, Frank (Radnor) Jones, Leif (Appleby) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Elibank, Master of Jones, William(Carnarvonshire O'Connor,James (Wicklow,W.)
Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Kearley, Hudson E. O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Erskine, David C. Kekewich, Sir George O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Essex, R. W. Kennedy, Vincent Paul O'Bonnell, C. J. (Walworth)
Eve, Harry Trelawney Kilbride, Denis O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Everett. R. Lacey Kincaid-Smith, Captain O'Hare, Patrick
Faber, G. H. (Boston) King, Alfred John(Knutsford) O'Keily,James(Roscommon,N,
Penwick, Charles Kitson, Sir James O'Malley, William
Ferens, T. R. Laidlaw, Robert O'Mara, James
Ferguson, H. C. Munro Lamb, EdmundG.(Leominster) O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Field, William Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) O'Shee, James John
Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Lambert, George Parker, James (Halifax)
Findlay, Alexander Lamont, Norman Partington, Oswald
Flavin, Michael John Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Paul, Herbert
Flynn, James Christopher Lea, Hugh Cecil(St.Pancras,E.) Paulton, James Meller
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Leese,SirJoseph F.(Accrington) Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)
Fuller, John Michael F. Lever,A. Levy(Essex,Harwich) Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Fullerton, Hugh Lever, W. H.(Cheshire,Wirral) Pearson,W. H. M.(Suffolk,Eye)
Gibb, James (Harrow) Levy, Maurice Perks, Robert William
Gill, A. H. Lewis, John Herbert Philipps,Col.Ivor (S'thampton)
Ginnell, L. Lough, Thomas Philipps,J.Wynford (Pembroke
Gladstone,Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn Lundon, W. Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Glendinning, R. G. Lupton, Arnold Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Goddard, Daniel Ford Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Pollard, Dr.
Gooch, George Peabody Lyell, Charles Henry Power, Patrick Joseph
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Lynch, H. B. Price, C.E.(Edinburgh,Central)
Greenwood, Hamar (York) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Price, Robert John (Norfolk.E.
Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) Seely, Major J. B. Walters, John Tudor
Priestley,W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Shackleton, David James Walton,Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Radford, G. H. Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Rainy, A. Rolland Shaw,Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) Ward, John(Stoke-upon-Trent)
Raphael, Herbert H. Shipman, Dr. John G- Wardle, George J.
Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Silcock, Thomas Ball Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro' Simon, John Allsebrook Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
Redmond, William (Clare) Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Waterlow, D. S.
Rees, J. D. Soames, Arthur Wollesley Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Rendall, Athelstan Soares, Ernest J. Whitbread, Howard
Renton, Major Leslie Spicer, Sir Albert White, George (Norfolk)
Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th Stewart, Halley (Greenock) White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mptn) Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) White, Luke (York, E. R)
Richardson,A. Strachey, Sir Edward White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Rickett, J. Compton Straus, B. S. (Mile End) Whitehead, Rowland
Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Whitley, S. H. (Halifax)
Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Stuart, James (Sunderland) Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Roberts, John H. (Donbighs.) Sullivan, Donal Wiles, Thomas
Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee) Summerbell, T. Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Robertson,SirG. Scott(Bradf rd Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarth'n
Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Taylor, John W. (Durham) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Robinson, S. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Williamson, A.
Robson, Sir William Snowdon Tennant, SirEdward(Salisbury) Wills, Arthur Walters
Roche, John (Galway, East) Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Roe, Sir Thomas Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.
Rogers, F. E. Newman Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Rose, Charles Day Thomasson, Franklin Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Runciman, Walter Thompson, J.W.H. (Somerset.E Winfrey, R.
Russell, T. W. Tomkinson, James Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk,Mid)
Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Torrance, Sir A. M. Wood. T. M'Kinnon
Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Toulmin, George Woodhouse.Sir J.T(Huddersf'd
Samuel, S. .M. (Whitechapel) Trevelyan, Charles Philips Young, Samuel
Scarisbrick, T. T. L. Ure, Alexander Yoxall, James Henry
Sehwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) Verney, F. W.
Schwann, Sir C.E.(Manchester) Vivian, Henry TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Sears, J. E. Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Seaverns, J. H. Wallace, Robert
Seddon, J. Walsh, Stephen
NOES.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Castlereagh, Viscount Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.
Anstruther-Gray, Major Cave, George Hay, Hon. Claude George
Arkwright, John Stanhope Cavendish, Rt.Hn.Victor C. W. Heaton, John Henniker
Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn. Hugh O Cecil Evelyn (Aston Manor) Helmsley, Viscount
Ashley, W. W. Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Hervay,F.W.F. (BuryS.Edm'ds
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon.SirH. Cecil, Lord R.(Marylebone, E.) Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)
Balcarres, Lord Coates.E.Feetham (Lewisham) Hills, J. W.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.. J. (CityLond.) Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hornby, Sir William Henry
Balfour, Capt. O. B. (Hornsey) Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Houston, Robert Paterson
Banbary, Sir Frederick George Courthope, G. Loyd Hunt, Rowland
Banner, John S. Harmood- Craik, Sir Henry Kennaway,Rt. Hon SirJohn H.
Barrie, H.T (Londonderry, N.) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Kenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hon.Col.W.
Beach,Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks Du Cros, Harvey Keswick, William
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Duncan,Robert (Lanark,Govan King,SirHenry Seymour (Hull)
Bignold, Sir Arthur Faber, George Denison (York) Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win.
Bowles, G. Stewart Fell, Arthur Lane-Fox, G. R.
Boyle, Sir Edward Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Law, Andrew Bonar(Dulwich)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Fletcher, J. S. Lee,ArthurH Hants. (Fareham
Brotherton, Edward Allen Forster, Henry William Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col. A.R.
Bull, Sir William James Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) Long, Col. CharlesW.(Evesham
Burdett-Coutts, W. Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Long,Rt.Hn.Walter(Dublin,S.)
Butcher, Samuel Henry Haddock, George R. Lowe, Sir Francis William
Carlile, E. Hildred Hamilton, Marquess of MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hardy,Laurence(Kent,Ashford M'IverSir Lewis (EdinburghW
Magnus, Sir Philip Remnant, James Farquharson Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Marks, H. H. (Kent) Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall) Warde, Col. G. E. (Kent, Mid)
Mason, James F. (Windsor) Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Meysey-Tbompson, E. C. Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Middlemore,Jn.(Throgmorton Salter, Arthur Clavell Wilson, A.Stanley(York, E.R.)
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Morpeth, Viscount Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Muntz, Sir Philip A. Smith,Abel H.(Hertford.East) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Nicholson, Win. G.(Petersfield) Smith, Hon. W.F. D. (Strand) Younger, George
Nield, Herbert Stanley, Hn.Arthur(Ormskirk)
Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington Starkey, John R. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.
Rasch, Sir Frederic Came Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)
Ratcliff, Major R. F. Thornton, Percy M.
Rawlinson, John Frederick P. Walker, Col.W. H.(Lancashire)

Question put, and agreed to.

Question put, "That Clause 13 stand part of the Bill."

Amendment proposed— To leave out Tart II. (Clauses 14 to 24 inclusive)."—(Mr. Birall.)

Question, " That Part II. stand part of the Bill," put forthwith, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 18th June, and negatived.

And, it being Eleven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

The House resumed.