§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1:—
§ MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)said the intention of the Amendment he desired to move was to deal with the question of whether the hereditary revenues derived from the Crown lands and other sources really belonged to the King in his personal capacity or in his capacity of head of the State. In the preamble of the Bill the House was told that these had been given up by the King, but the preamble of a Bill did not make law, and the fact that in the preamble he gave them up did not give the King, in his personal capacity, any title to these hereditary revenues. He believed that no lawyer would venture to assert that these hereditary revenues belonged personally to the sovereign, except as the head and representative of the State. In 1872 a Report was made by the Treasury upon divers matters connected with finance, and in an exhaustive appendix to that Report the whole question of the hereditary revenues was treated—whence they were derived and to whom they belonged; and no one, he submitted, could read that official document without coming to the conclusion that the whole idea of the hereditary revenues belonging to the sovereign was about as much a myth as any telegram 1491 of Reuter's from the seat of war. Up to 1688 there was no such thing as a Civil List at all. Up to then the hereditary revenues belonged entirely to the State, and were devoted to the government of the State, and no distinction was made as to what the monarch was to spend on his family. What was now called the Civil List came into existence at the time of William and Mary, when the funds were voted and certain sources were reserved from which money was to be derived; but there was no pretence that they belonged to the sovereign in any way, and the House of Commons had a right to vote or refuse them as it chose. In the reign of Anne certain revenues were charged, but even then there was no idea that they in any way belonged to the sovereign. It was acknowledged then that they belonged to the country, and portions of them were taken and devoted to special purposes. In the reigns of George I. and George II. the same rule applied. In the reign of George III. the arrangement was much the same; but it was in that reign that in the preamble of the Act the King said he gave up the hereditary revenues from Crown lands, etc., and the same renunciation was performed in the preambles of the Acts of George IV., William IV., and Victoria. But could any lawyer say, after the facts which had been set forth by the official Report of 1872, that there was any right in the sovereign to hold these revenues as his own property? Such a right was not derived before the Revolution of 1688, and it was certainly not derived afterwards. The only reason the remuneration was put into the preambles of the Acts of George I., George II., and George III. was that, although those sovereigns had recognised that the larger hereditary revenues belonged to the State, they had not so recognised the smaller ones. This was considered unfair, and therefore it was specially inserted in the Civil List of William IV. that these smaller revenues, as well as the hereditary revenues, were given up. The Crown had absolutely no title to the Crown lands, or to any other hereditary revenues. The mistake had crept in apparently owing to the action of Lord Bute. If it were merely the old-fashioned mode of showing respect to the Crown, he should not have 1492 protested against it, but it was more than that. The Chancellor of the Exchequer himself had said that as a consideration for the House granting the Civil List, the Crown had given up this personal property. But that point was not taken into consideration at all. In granting the Civil List, no account was taken of the relation it would bear to the amount the Crown lands brought in, but a sum was granted which the House thought fitting to the dignity and the maintenance of the Crown. He therefore protested against this statement being dragged into one Civil List after another. There ought always to be a protest raised against it. The principle should be kept alive that the sovereign should have no personal estates, and that so far as the Crown lands, etc., were concerned the sovereign owned no personal property. He therefore moved the Amendment standing in his name.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 25, to leave out from the word 'revenues' to the word 'shall,' in page 2, line 1."—(Mr Labouchere.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,) Manchester, E.The hon. Gentleman has given us a very learned and interesting disquisition upon the history of Crown lands, but I confess I cannot for the life of me see how his premisses lead to his conclusions, or what benefit he desires to gain for his Amendment. The hon. Member says that there is no doubt the Crown lands do not belong to the Crown. I should say there is no doubt that the Crown lands do belong to the Crown, and every lawyer in the House, I suppose, would confirm that statement. The Crown lands belong to the Crown, and the sovereign could, if he had not made renunciation like that contained in this Bill, spend the money precisely as he chose. It may be perfectly true that in the days when there was no Civil List, in the more primitive days of British Monarchy, the Crown lands not only defrayed the cost of the sovereign's household and personal expenses, but a 1493 large part of the expenses of running the government of the country. But no lawyer would say, in the absence of a renunciation by the Crown, that it would not be in the power of the Crown to spend the revenues of the Crown lands according to the will of the sovereign for the time being. Under these circumstances I cannot see what would be gained by the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman. It is in the highest degree improbable that the time will ever arrive when a sovereign of this country would
§ refuse to come to terms about the arrangements for keeping up the Monarchy; and, in the meanwhile, the evidence afforded by the past reign shows that the present arrangement is highly satisfactory, and I think that in the present reign it would be in the highest degree foolish for the House to disturb that arrangement.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 309; Noes, 67. (Division List No 230.)
1497| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. | Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Haldane, Richard Bourdon |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Hall, Edward Marshall |
| Aird, Sir John | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld G. (Midd'x |
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Craig, Robert Hunter | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. |
| Allsopp, Hon George | Cripps, Charles Alfred | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Crombie, John William | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd. |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Harris, Frederick Leverton |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn Herbert Henry | Dalkeith, Earl of | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Hay, Hon. Claude George |
| Austin, Sir John | Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Davies, M. Vaughan-Cardigan | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir A. D. |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Denny, Colonel | Heaton, John Henniker |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.) | Helder, Augustus |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) | Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield | Hermon-Hodge, Robert T. |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Dixon-Hartland Sir Fred Dixon | Higginbottom, S. W. |
| Balfour, Maj K R (Christchurch | Doughty, George | Hill, Arthur |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Holland, William Henry |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol | Duncan, J. Hastings | Hope, J. F. (Sheffi'ld, Brightside- |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Dunn, Sir William | Horner, Frederick William |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H. | Horniman, Frederick John |
| Bill, Charles | Edwards, Frank | Houldsworth, Sir W. H. |
| Black, Alexander William | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Emmott, Alfred | Hozier, Hon. J. Henry Cecil |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Fardell, Sir T. George | Hudson, George Bickersteth |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. |
| Bowles, Capt. H. T. (Middlesex) | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. | Jacoby, James Alfred |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn | Fenwick, Charles | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick |
| Brassey, Albert | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex.) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Finch, George H. | Joicey, Sir James |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Jones, William (Carnanvonsh. |
| Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh. | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U. |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Fisher, William Hayes | Kearley, Hudson E. |
| Brymer, William Ernest | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. |
| Burt, Thomas | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. | Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J A (Glasgow | Fletcher, Sir Henry | Kimber, Henry |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Flower, Ernest | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry | Kinloch, Sir John George S. |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Garfit, William | Kitson, Sir James |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John | Knowles, Lees |
| Cavendish, V. C W (Derbyshire) | Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn) | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc. | Langley, Batty |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. | Laurie, Lt.-General |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth) |
| Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Lawrence, Wm, F. (Liverpool) |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Graham, Henry Robert | Lawson, John Grant |
| Chapman, Edward | Grant, Corrie | Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. Edw. H. |
| Charrington, Spencer | Green, W. D. (Wednesbury) | Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareh'm |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos H. A. E. | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Leese, Sir Joseph F (Accrington) |
| Coddington, Sir William | Groves, James Grimble | Leigh Bennett, Henry Gurrie- |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Guthrie, Walter Murray | Levy, Maurice |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hain, Edward | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Percy, Earl | Spencer, Rt Hn C R (Northants.) |
| Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S | Perks, Robert William | Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset) |
| Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Philipps, John Wynford | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Lowe, Francis William | Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Lowther, C. (Cum., Eskdale) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent) | Plummer, Walter R. | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Strachey, Edward |
| Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Pretyman, Ernest George | Stroyan, John |
| Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Price, Robert John | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Macdona, John Cumming | Purvis, Robert | Tennant, Harold John |
| M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Pym, C. Guy | Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings |
| M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh, W | Quilter, Sir Cuthbert | Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, G'wer |
| Majendie, James A. H. | Randles, John S. | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Malcolm, Ian | Rankin, Sir James | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Manners, Lord Cecil | Rasch, Maj. Frederic Carne | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Maple, Sir John Blundell | Rea, Russell | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Markham, Arthur Basil | Reid, James (Greenock) | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Martin, Richard Biddulph | Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. | Remnant, James Farquharson | Valentia, Viscount |
| Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Renshaw, Charles Bine | Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield |
| Middlemore, John T. | Renwick, George | Wallace, Robert |
| Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Montagu, Hon. J. S. (Hants.) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Morgan, Hn Fred. (Monm'thsh. | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan |
| Morley, Rt Hn John (Montrose) | Robinson, Brooke | Wason, John C. (Orkney) |
| Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | Robson, William Snowdon | Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.) |
| Morrison, James Archibald | Roe, Sir Thomas | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Whiteley, George (York, W. R.) |
| Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne) |
| Moss, Samuel | Ropner, Colonel Robert | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Moulton, John Fletcher | Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Mount, William Arthur | Russell, T. W. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R. |
| Muntz, Philip A. | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) | Wilson, Charles H. (Hull, W.) |
| Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Seely, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hon E R (Bath) |
| Myers, William Henry | Seton-Karr, Henry | Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd |
| Newdigate, Francis Alexander | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Nicholson, William Graham | Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford) | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Nicol, Donald Ninian | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Norman, Henry | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew | Young, Commander (Berks, E.) |
| O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Simeon, Sir Barrington | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Palmer, George Wm. (Reading) | Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire) | |
| Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Parker, Gilbert | Smith, H C (Northumb. Tynesd. | |
| Partington, Oswald | Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks) | |
| Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) | |
| Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) | Spear, John Ward | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Ambrose, Robert | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Hammond, John | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) |
| Blake, Edward | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydv'l | O'Brien, Kendal (T'pp'r'ry, Mid |
| Boland, John | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Hope, John Dean (Fife, West) | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Burns, John | Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. |
| Caine, William Sproston | Leamy, Edmund | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Caldwell, James | Leng, Sir John | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Lewis, John Herbert | O'Kelly, James (Rosc'mm'n, N. |
| Crean, Eugene | Lloyd-George, David | O'Malley, William |
| Cullinan, J. | Longh, Thomas | O'Mara, James |
| Delany, William | Lundon, W. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Dillon, John | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Donelan, Capt. A. | M'Dermott, Patrick | Reddy, M. |
| Doogan, P. C. | M'Govern, T. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Duffy, William J. | Mooney, John J. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Murnaghan, George | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Murphy, John | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Gilhooly, James |
| Sullivan, Donal | Ure, Alexander | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Labouchere and Mr. M'Kenna. |
| Taylor, Theodore Cooke | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | |
| Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 2:—
§ MR. LABOUCHEREsaid his next Amendment dealt with the amount of money proposed to be voted by Parliament for the King's Civil List. He proposed that the amount should be £415,000 instead of £470,000. Hon. Members did not realise that the funds of the Duchy of Lancaster formed part of the Civil List and brought it up to £530,000. The late Queen Victoria was voted a Civil List of £385,000 at a time when the revenue of the Duchy of Lancaster, instead of producing £60,000 as at present, only produced £12,000. Many years ago a Liberal Government proposed £50,000 a year to the late Prince Consort, but the Conservatives at that time were so sound in certain matters connected with finance that, backed up by the Radicals in the House of Commons, the amount was reduced to £30,000. It seemed to be thought by some gentleman to be a crime of lese majesté, when the Government proposed a sum of money either for the sovereign or a royal prince, to propose a reduction. He was prepared to vote whatever sum was actually required, but he was not ready, upon vague general observations such as were found in the Report of the majority of the Civil List Committee, to vote more than he thought was really necessary. The revenues of the Duchy of Lancaster had increased largely in recent years, and taking them at £60,000, and including £30,000 for the Prince Consort, which would have remained had he lived, the Civil List of Her Majesty would have been £475,000 as against this £530,000, which they were now called upon to vote. Although that Civil List was much smaller than the one proposed now, it amply sufficed for Her Majesty. A good deal was made upon the Committee of the fact that during the last few years Class III. of the present List exceeded the amount set down in the Civil List during the last five years of Her Majesty's reign by £11,000. He thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer would admit that the expenses of His Majesty's 1498 Household did not exceed the amount at which they stood at the commencement of the reign of Queen Victoria. The ceremonial expenditure in Class II. had been reduced. The amount for salaries had been reduced by doing away with sinecure offices to the extent of £15,000, and the class had also been reduced £6,000 by the abolition of the Royal Buckhounds. The pensions which would fall to be paid were reduced by about £10,000. When the Civil List of Queen Victoria was arranged considerable reductions were made with respect to political offices, and some were abolished altogether, but that was considered in the amount. But here, though the expenditure was reduced, that was not taken into consideration in the amount. The amount of the Civil List was raised, and the amount to be paid out of it was reduced. There was the one item of "personal staff" added, which was really no addition. Personal staff in the reign of Queen Victoria came out of the privy purse, and now it was made a separate class of its own. In looking over the expenditure of the late Queen he found a large amount put down for Balmoral and Osborne. These palaces belonged to Her Majesty, but he held to the old Whig doctrine that the sovereign ought to hold no personal property of his or her own. The sovereign should give up his personal estates to relatives, if they liked, and should be entirely dependent upon the amount of money voted by the House of Commons. If they had to consider not only what was necessary for the sovereign, but also what was necessary to maintain Balmoral and Sandringham, the Civil List might be raised in order to keep up estates which were of no value to the country. The result of this was that the privy purse had increased enormously. Although there were reductions in the class, the total amount of the privy purse would be £200,000, which, with all respect to the Sovereign, he was bound to say he thought was somewhat excessive. He wished not only that the Sovereign should have enough to maintain himself in comfort, but that the Court should be conducted with decent magnifi- 1499 cence. He did not, and never would, agree to the doctrine laid down by the majority of the Committee upstairs, that they should never place any restriction upon the hospitality of the Sovereign. If that was true, they were violating their own rule in asking £470,000. If that was true, what they ought to do was to give the Sovereign power freely to draw what he wished from the Treasury. They knew that the Queen's Court was kept with what he would call decent magnificence, and he was not aware that the present Court required more. A few belonging to the privileged classes who went to the entertainments wanted more to be granted than the late Queen received. He could only say that he never heard of one of his constituents being asked to the functions. This was a little Society matter, and he thought that, in view of the lavish and ostentatious hospitality practised by certain persons in this country who had grown suddenly rich, the Court should set an example of decent hospitality.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 2, line 6, to leave out the word 'seventy,' and insert the word 'fifteen' instead thereof."—(Mr. Labouchere.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'seventy' stand part of the clause."
§ SIR F. DIXON-HARTLAND (Middlesex, Uxbridge)said he was very sorry the hon. Member for Northampton had moved this Amendment. It was clearly proved in the Committee upstairs that it was most desirable, in the interest of His Majesty and of the country, that proper provision should be made for the Crown. It was considered that a large expenditure would be required to keep up the dignity and honour of the office, and that it would be far wiser that an amount should be given which would be satisfactory in that way, so that His Majesty should not be obliged to run into debt, because they had made an improper allowance to him. The King had to keep up his Court in very much the same way as other monarchs in Europe had to do. The monarchical principle was fixed in the minds of the people of Europe, and therefore it was desirable that we should keep up the Crown in exactly the same way as was done in other countries. There was 1500 only one country in Europe which at present was not a monarchy. That was France. He was in Paris when the Czar of Russia was there, and had an opportunity of mixing with the people and hearing their sentiments. The feeling he heard expressed on all sides was that they ought to have a monarchy of their own. In discussing this question they ought to consider what had been done abroad. He would give a few figures showing what other countries had done. A comparison of the expenditure equivalent to that of the Civil List in European countries showed the amounts to be:—In Russia, £2,750,382; Prussia, £785,965; Austria, £775,000; Italy, £642,000; Great Britain, including all the grants to the Royal Family, £590,000; Spain, £370,000; Bavaria, £275,158; Saxony, £188,960; Belgium, £140,000; Sweden, £112,000; Portugal, £80,300; Holland, £66,666; and Denmark, £66,200. In republican France the amount was £426,240, and in the United States £442,625. That worked out per head of the population as follows:—Saxony, 11.97d.; Bavaria, 11.35d.; Denmark, 7.27d.; Prussia, 5.92d.; Russia, 5.12d.; Spain, 4.99d.; Belgium, 4.98d.; Italy, 4.84d.; Austria, 4.16d.; Portugal, 3.82d.; Sweden, 3.72d.; Great Britain, 3.46d.; France, 2.66d.; and the United States, 1.69d. But if they took off the value of the Crown lands which was dealt with under the last Amendment it really worked out at a penny per head of the population in this country. He thought they would find that nothing could be cheaper than the amount we had to pay in this country in comparison with other countries.
§ MR. KEIR HARDIE (Merthyr Tydvil)said the extraordinary figures they had listened to from the hon. Baronet the Member for the Uxbridge Division certainly came as a surprise to him. There was a time in the history of this country when the Civil List included the whole cost of government, apart from the Army and Navy. The figures cited by the hon. Baronet showed that this House was asked to vote to the King and Queen a larger sum than sufficed in the United States for the entire government, including the payment of Members of Parliament.
§ SIR F. DIXON-HARTLANDsaid that if in the United States they indulged in the luxury of paying senators the cost was included in the figure he had quoted.
§ MR. KEIR HARDIEremarked that that was exactly his point. What the hon. Baronet invited the Committee to do was to vote for the King and Queen of England, for their own personal use, a larger sum than was given for the entire government of the United States. If the hon. Baronet was prepared to move an Amendment that King Edward should, out of his Civil List, pay the Members of this House, he would vote for the Amendment. There were two points on which he would invite the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give some information before the question went to the vote. When the subject was last under discussion he asked whether the £50,000, included in the £110,000 for the privy purse, which was supposed to be voted to the Queen, would be paid to Her Majesty direct, or to the King, leaving him to dispose of it as he saw fit. Unless the sum was to be paid to her direct, he would move a further Amendment to this clause at the proper stage. If this House voted a sum of money to Queen Alexandra, the more popular of the two—[Cries of "Oh!" and "Order!"]—he would speak the truth even if it did not please hon. Members opposite. If this House voted a sum of money to Her Majesty, they should be sure that it was paid to her direct. He also asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the King continued to hold various commissions which he formerly held in the Army, and, if so, whether he was paid for holding these positions. He found that His Majesty was a Field Marshal on the Active List and colonel of several regiments. Evidently His Majesty did not believe in "one man one job." He should vote for the Amendment because he thought the sum which it specified was more than sufficient. The late Queen and Prince Consort, with a young and increasing family, had a total income for the privy purse of about £100,000 a year, whereas the sum that was to be voted now to the King and Queen, for whose family separate provision was made, was close on £200,000. He submitted that this 1502 was to set an example of wasteful extravagance which at a time like this would be injurious to the nation.
§ MR. E. J. C. MORTONsaid it seemed to him to be idle to compare the expenditure which might take place during the present reign with what was spent towards the close of the last reign. During the last forty years the sovereign was almost practically in retirement, for reasons which they all knew. We must go back to a period not later than 1861 for the purpose of comparison. Moreover, in making such a comparison, they must remember that during the last forty years there had been a most remarkable increase in the number and extent of great properties in this country. It had been estimated that within the next thirty years, by the falling in of leases, the capital value of the property of one landlord, in a town which was not London, would be increased by £40,000,000. They knew that for many years to come there was not the slightest chance of our giving up the monarchical system in this country; and he held, from a purely democratic point of view, that it would be a danger to the country if the monarch were not among the wealthiest men in the country. The sovereign must have great influence in the State, and he was not prepared to submit the sovereign to the temptations of undue influence, and to run the risk of increasing the power of those men whose properties had become so great within the last forty years, a power that was already a social danger.
§ SIR M. HICKS BEACHI think it is not necessary to detain the Committee at any length in regard to the proposals of the hon. Member for Northampton. The hon. Member has stated to the Committee precisely the views which he stated to the Committee upstairs, and that Committee decided against him, not merely by a majority, for he could get no one to support his views. I am not disposed to compare the Civil List with that of other countries, or to discuss the view expressed by the hon. Member who has just sat down. But I do think that the proposals which the Government submitted to the Committee upstairs, and to which that Committee agreed unanimously, 1503 with the exception of the hon. Member for Northampton, if they erred, erred on the side of moderation. I rise merely to answer a question asked by the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil with regard to the colonelcies held by the King in the Army. Those are purely honorary appointments. His Majesty is, I believe, colonel of more than one regiment, but he receives not one single penny in respect
§ of these appointments. That portion of their Majesties' Privy Purse which will be allocated to the Queen will, in accordance with precedent, be paid direct to Her Majesty's privy purse.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 335; Noes, 52. (Division List No. 231.)
1505| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Guthrie, Walter Murray |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Haldane, Richard Burdon |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Hall, Edward Marshall |
| Aird, Sir John | Craig, Robert Hunter | Halsey, Thomas Frederick |
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Cripps, Charles Alfred | Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G (Mid'x |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Crombie, John William | Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Crossley, Sir Savile | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Dalkeith, Earl of | Hardy, Lawrence (Kent, Ashf'd |
| Austin, Sir John | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Harris, Frederick Leverton |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan | Hay, Hon. Claude George |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Denny, Colonel | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Dewar, T R (T'rH'mlets, S. Geo. | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Heaton, John Henniker |
| Balfour, Maj K R (Christchurch | Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield | Helder, Augustus |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon | Hermon Hodge, Robert T. |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Doughty, George | Higginbottom, S. W. |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Hill, Arthur |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Hoare, Edw. B. (Hampstead) |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Duncan, J. Hastings | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) |
| Bigwood, James | Dunn, Sir William | Holland, William Henry |
| Black, Alexander William | Edwards, Frank | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Hope, John Deans (Fife, W.) |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Emmott, Alfred | Horniman, Frederick John |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn | Fardell, Sir T. George | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) |
| Brassey, Albert | Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Hozier, Hon. James Henry C. |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Hudson, George Bickersteth |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leigh) | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. |
| Brookfield, Col. Montagu | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Jacoby, James Alfred |
| Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh. | Finch, George H. | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Finlay, Sir Robt. Bannatyne | Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton |
| Brymer, William Ernest | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex- |
| Bull, William James | Fisher, William Hayes | Joicey, Sir James |
| Butcher, John George | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U |
| Caine, William Sproston | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Kearley, Hudson E. |
| Caldwell, James | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. |
| Cameron, Robert | Fletcher, Sir Henry | Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J A (Glasgow | Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Garfit, William | Keswick, William |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond. | Kimber, Henry |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Kinloch, Sir John George S. |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Knowles, Lees |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.) | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth) |
| Chamberlain, Rt Hon. J. (Birm. | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) |
| Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Lawson, John Grant |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Graham, Henry Robert | Lecky, Rt Hn. William Edw. H. |
| Chapman, Edward | Grant, Corrie | Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham |
| Charrington, Spencer | Green, Walford D. (Wedn'sbury | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington |
| Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Coddington, Sir William | Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs. | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Gretton, John | Leng, Sir John |
| Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Levy, Maurice |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Groves, James Grimble | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Parker, Gilbert | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Long, Rt. Hn Walter (Bristol, S. | Partington, Oswald | Spear, John Ward |
| Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Paulton, James Mellor | Spencer, Rt Hn C R (Northants. |
| Lowe, Francis William | Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) | Spencer, E. (W. Bromwich) |
| Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset |
| Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent) | Peel, Hn. Wm Robert Wellesley | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Percy, Earl | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Lucas, R. J. (Portsmouth) | Perks, Robert William | Strachey, Edward |
| Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Philipps, John Wynford | Stroyan, John |
| Macdona, John Cumming | Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxf'd U. |
| M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Plummer, Walter R. | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Tennant, Harold John |
| M'Kenna, Reginald | Pretyman, Ernest George | Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings |
| Majendie, James A. H. | Purvis, Robert | Thomas, J. A. (Gl'm'gan Gower) |
| Malcolm, Ian | Pym, C. Guy | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Manners, Lord Cecil | Quilter, Sir Cuthbert | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Randles, John S. | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Maple, Sir John Blundell | Rankin, Sir James | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Markham, Arthur Basil | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Martin, Richard Biddulph | Rea, Russell | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n | Reid, James (Greenock) | Ure, Alexander |
| Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire | Remnant, James Farquharson | Valentia, Viscount |
| Melville, Beresford Valentine | Renshaw, Charles Bine | Wallace, Robert |
| Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Ridley, Hn M. W. (Stalybridge) | Walton, John L. (Leeds, S.) |
| Middlemore, John Throgmort'n | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants. | Robinson, Brooke | Wason, John C. (Orkney) |
| Morgan, David J. (Walthams'w | Robson, William Snowdon | Welby, Lt.-Col. A C E (Taunton |
| Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh. | Roe, Sir Thomas | Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.) |
| Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose | Ropner, Colonel Robert | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F. | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L. |
| Morrison, James Archibald | Round, James | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford | Russell, T. W. | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne |
| Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Moss, Samuel | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Moulton, John Pletcher | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) | Williams, O. (Merioneth) |
| Mount, William Arthur | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset) |
| Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Muntz, Philip A. | Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) | Wilson, A Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute | Seton-Karr, Henry | Wilson, Chas. Hy. (Hull, W.) |
| Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N. |
| Myers, William Henry | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Newdigate, Francis Alex. | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Nicholson, William Graham | Simeon, Sir Barrington | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Nicol, Donald Ninian | Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh. | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Norman, Henry | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Young, Commander (Berks, E.) |
| O'Neill, Hon. Rbt. Torrens | Skewes-Cox, Thomas | |
| Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham) | Smith, H C (North'mb., T'neside | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Palmer, George Wm. (Reading) | Smith, James P. (Lanarks.) | |
| Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Hammond, John | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Malley, William |
| Blake, Edward | Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Mara, James |
| Boland, John | Leamy, Edmund | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Lundon, W. | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Burt, Thomas | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | M'Dermott, Patrick | Reddy, M. |
| Crean, Eugene | M'Govern, T. | Redmond, J. E. (Waterford) |
| Cullinan, J. | Mooney, John J. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Delany, William | Murnaghan, George | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Dillon, John | Murphy, J. | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Sullivan, Donal |
| Doogan, P. C. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Duffy, William J. | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | |
| Fenwick, Charles | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Labouchere and Mr. John Burns. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. |
§ MR. KEIR HARDIEsaid he rose for the purpose of moving the addition of certain words to the clause as it stood. Naturally they were all pleased to hear the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to the effect that a certain amount from the privy purse was to be devoted to the use of Her Majesty the Queen. But the question was, what was that amount to be? He thought the House of Commons should have something to say in deciding what proportion of the Civil List should be paid to Her Majesty. In these days of woman's rights and all the rest of it, it seemed but right and proper that the House of Commons should decide how much Her Majesty was to receive out of the sum they had just voted. His Amendment was to add after Clause 2 the words, "£50,000 of which sum shall be paid to Her Majesty Queen Alexandra for her sole and separate use." He hoped that whatever difference of opinion there might be as to the total amount of the privy purse, there would not be any great difference of opinion as to the desirability of the nation saying, through its representatives, what proportion of it was to be paid to the Queen. He could not speak from personal knowledge, but he was told that it was common to provide marriage portions, pin-money, and other allowances to wives, and the proposal he now submitted would carry out that idea. The King, despite his great qualities, was, after all, but human, and it might prove too great a temptation to him were he to be allowed an undisputed sway as to how the privy purse was to be disposed of. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer could assure the Committee that some reasonable part of the £110,000 of the privy purse was to be paid to Her Majesty direct, then it was needless to say he would not seek to press his Amendment; but failing any such assurance, as a matter of principle and as a matter of precaution, he would invite the Committee
§ to divide on the Amendment, which he now begged to move.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 2, line 6, at the end of the clause to add the words 'fifty thousand pounds of which shall be paid to Her Majesty Queen Alexandra for her sole and separate use.'"—(Mr. Keir Hardie.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
§ SIR M. HICKS BEACHThe proposal of the Committee and the proposal of the Bill really is that the privy purse should be their Majesties' jointly. That follows exactly the precedent of the Civil List Act of King William IV. and Queen Adelaide. For that reason I do not consider the Amendment of the hon. Member is advisable, and I cannot accept it. I do not see any reason to conceal from the House, what I communicated to the Committee upstairs, that the amount which will be paid to Her Majesty the Queen will be £33,000 a year.
§ MR. LABOUCHEREsaid he was bound to say that he thought the arrangement was not one to which the House ought to agree. The late Queen had £60,000 voted for her privy purse. The King, following the precedent of King William IV. and Queen Adelaide, was to receive £110,000; that was to say, £50,000 in excess of Her late Majesty. If His Majesty were not married, obviously it would be considered that £60,000 would be amply sufficient. Surely, therefore, it would have been understood, without the present explanation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that Her Majesty Queen Alexandra was to receive the extra amount, and that was the reason for increasing the privy purse from £60,000 to £110,000. If his hon. friend went to a division he should vote with him.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 65; Noes, 310. (Division List No. 232.).
1511| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Caine, William Sproston | Dillon, John |
| Ambrose, Robert | Caldwell, James | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Doogan, P. C. |
| Blake, Edward | Crean, Eugene | Duffy, William J. |
| Boland, John | Cullinan, J. | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Delany, William | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Mooney, John J. | Reddy, M. |
| Gilhooly, James | Murnaghan, George | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Grant, Corrie | Murphy, J. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Hammond, John | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Robson, Wm. Snowdon |
| Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | O'Brien, Kendal (T'pper'ry, Mid | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Thomas J A (Glamorgan, Gower |
| Leamy, Edmund | O'Connor, James (Wicklow W. | Ure, Alexander |
| Levy, Maurice | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Lewis, John Herbert | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Lundon, W. | O'Malley, William | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | O'Mara, James | |
| M'Dermott, Patrick | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Keir Hardie and Mr. Labouchere. |
| M'Govern, T. | Power, Patrick Joseph | |
| M'Kenna, Reginald | Reckitt, Harold James | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Gretton, John |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Greville, Hon. Ronald |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Groves, James Grimble |
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Haldane, Richard Burdon |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Hall, Edward Marshall |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Craig, Robert Hunter | Halsey, Thomas Frederick |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Cronborne, Viscount | Hamilton, Rt Hn Ld. G. (Midd'x |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Cripps, Charles Alfred | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Crombie, John William | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William |
| Austin, Sir John | Crossley, Sir Savile | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Harris, Frederick Leverton |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Cust, Henry John C. | Haslam, Sip Alfred S. |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Dalkeith, Earl of | Hay, Hon. Claude George |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. |
| Balfour, Maj. K R (Christchurch | Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan | Heaton, John Henniker |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Dewar, T. R. (T'rH'mlets, S. Geo | Helder, Augustus |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Hermon-Hodge, Robert T. |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H (Bristol) | Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield | Higginbottom, S. W. |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon | Hill, Arthur |
| Bigwood, James | Doughty, George | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) |
| Black, Alexander William | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Holland, William Henry |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightsd. |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Duncan, J. Hastings | Horniman, Frederick John |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) | Dunn, Sir William | Houldsworth, Sir W. Henry |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (Kings Lynn) | Edwards, Frank | Houston, Robert Paterson |
| Brassey, Albert | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Fardell, Sir T. George | Hozier, Hon. James Henry C. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Hudson, George Bickersteth |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. |
| Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh. | Fenwick, Charles | Jacoby, James Alfred |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick |
| Brymer, William Ernest | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Jessell, Captain Herbert M. |
| Bull, William James | Finch, George H. | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) |
| Burt, Thomas | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Joicey, Sir James |
| Butcher, John George | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Fisher, William Hayes | Kearley, Hudson E. |
| Cameron, Robert | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A (Glasgow | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh) |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Keswick, William |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Fletcher, Sir Henry | Kimber, Henry |
| Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire | Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Garfit, William | Kinloch, Sir John George S. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond | Knowles, Lees |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Lambton, Hon. Frederick W. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) | Gordon, Hn J. E. (Elgin & Nairn) | Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool) |
| Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.) | Lawson, John Grant |
| Chapman, Edward | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. E. H. |
| Charrington, Spencer | Goschen, Hon George Joachim | Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Green, Walford D. (Wednesby. | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington |
| Coddington, Sir William | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.) | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Leng, Sir John | Nicol, Nonald Ninian | Spear, John Ward |
| Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. | Norman, Henry | Spencer, Rt Hn. C R. (Northant |
| Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | O'Neill, Hon. Robert T. | Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich |
| Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.) | Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham | Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset) |
| Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Palmer, George W. (Reading) | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Lough, Thomas | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Lowe, Francis William | Parker, Gilbert | Stewart, Sir Mark J M'Taggart |
| Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Partington, Oswald | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent) | Paulton, James Mellor | Stroyan, John |
| Lucas, Col. P. (Lowestoft) | Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th) | Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J G (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert W. | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Macdona, John Cumming | Perks, Robert William | Tennant, Harold John |
| Maconochie, A. W. | Phillips, John Wynford | Thomas, F Freeman (Hastings |
| M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R. |
| M'Arthur, William (Cornw'll) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh W | Plummer, Walter R. | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Majendie, James A. H. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Malcolm, Ian | Pretyman, Ernest George | Tufnell, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Manners, Lord Cecil | Purvis, Robert | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Quilter, Sir Cuthbert | Valentia, Viscount |
| Maple, Sir John Blundell | Randles, John S. | Wallace, Robert |
| Markham, Arthur Basil | Rankin, Sir James | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S. |
| Martin, Richard Biddulph | Rasch, Major Frederick C. | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley |
| Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H E (Wigton | Rea, Russell | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. | Reid, James (Greenock) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan |
| Melville, Beresford Valentine | Renshaw, Charles Bine | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney |
| Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge | Welby, Lt.-Cl. A. C. E (Tannton. |
| Middlemore, John T. | Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) | Welb'y, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts. |
| Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Fred. G. | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T. | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd |
| Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants. | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Morgan, David J. (Walth'mst'w | Ropner, Colonel Robert | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u-Lyne- |
| Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh. | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel W. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Money, Charles (Breconshire) | Round, James | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth |
| Morley, Rt. Hn. J. (Montrose | Russell, T. W. | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset) |
| Morris, Hon. Martin H. F. | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Morrison, James Archibald | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
| Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) | Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W. |
| Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Moss, Samuel | Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.) |
| Moulton, John Fletcher | Sharpe, Wm. Edward T. | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks |
| Mount, William Arthur | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) | Wodehouse, Rt Hn. E. R. (Bath) |
| Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- |
| Muntz, Philip A. | Simeon, Sir Barrington | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) | Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire) | Young, Commander (Berks, E. |
| Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | |
| Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Skewes-Cox, Thomas | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Myers, William Henry | Smith, H. C (North'mb. T'nes'de | |
| Newdigate, Francis Alex. | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks | |
| Nicholson, William Graham | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) |
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 3:—
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Clause 3 stand part of the Bill."
§ MR. LABOUCHEREsaid he had looked into history with reference to the subject matter of this clause. He found that Prince Frederick, son of George II., received, including the revenue from the Duchy of Cornwall, £52,000. The Prince wanted more, as was the habit of most people, but the House of Commons refused to increase the sum. On the death of Prince Frederick the Prince 1512 of Wales—afterwards George III.—had £20,000, which was increased to £40,000 per annum. George IV., who was a somewhat expensive gentleman, received as Prince of Wales £50,000 a year, which, with the revenue from the Duchy of Cornwall, gave him £63,000. But he incurred debts to the amount of £650,000, and his allowance was raised to £113,000. As, however, £60,000 was allocated for the payment of his debts, with interest, he only, in fact, received £63,000. In past times it was always thrown back wards and forwards in the House of Commons whether the Prince of Wales should receive a large salary or not. The Opposition thought that if they could 1513 curry favour with the Prince of Wales they might get into power, and, accordingly, they were always in favour of giving him a large salary. The Government of the day, however, supported by the King, were always in favour of granting him a small amount. His present Majesty as Prince of Wales received £60,000, and Queen Alexandra as Princess of Wales received £10,000, or £70,000. At that time the Duchy of Cornwall produced £14,000, and it was estimated £84,000 per annum was amply sufficient for the Prince and Princess of Wales. At present the Duchy of Cornwall produced a little over £60,000, and there was a proposal that the Duchess of Cornwall should receive £10,000, in addition to which the Committee knew very well that when the Duke went abroad on visits such as that he was now paying to the Colonies he received large travelling allowances. Taking the Civil List at £540,000, £70,000 for the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall was more in proportion with it than the £130,000 which was practically proposed by the Government. It seemed to him that £70,000 was amply sufficient, and he did not see that more was required. If it were proved to him that more was required in order to keep up the state and dignity of the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall he would be perfectly ready to vote it, but all the Committee had had up to the present were general statements. He was regarded as a kind of idol hater who went into temples protesting against diamonds and gold chains being hung on idols, but in this matter he thought that £70,000 was sufficient. Could the Chancellor of the Exchequer show it was not? A suggestion had been made by the hon. Member for Plymouth that as there were so many rich people in the country, some of whom were worth £2,000,000 of money, His Majesty should be given £3,000,000; but his plan would be much more simple. He would rather confiscate a great deal of the money of these millionaires than increase the amount of the Civil List, but that was a course which he could not hope would recommend itself to the Conservative party. However, he thought that with £70,000 a year a gentleman, though he happened to be the son of the Sovereign, ought to be 1514 able to rub along very comfortably, and he should, therefore, vote against the clause, but he should like the right hon. Gentleman to enlighten his ignorance.
§ SIR M. HICKS BEACHThe hon. Member has made a discursive speech, but as he asks me to enlighten his ignorance I would refer him to the appendix to the Report of the Committee, which is entirely at variance with the figures given by the hon. Member as to the allowance made by Parliament to his present Majesty when he was Prince of Wales. As far back as 1863 there was granted to his present Majesty £40,000 a year, at the same time His Majesty receiving £46,000 a year from the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall. There was a further grant of £10,000 a year for her present Majesty, then Princess of Wales, and that altogether made up £96,000 a year just the same amount as the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall and York will, in all, receive. Therefore on what ground the hon. Member proposes that this clause should be rejected I cannot imagine. It has been thought necessary to make some reduction in the amount to be voted to the Duke of Cornwall and York, as the circumstances of the Heir Apparent when a Queen was on the Throne were somewhat different; but we could not ask Parliament to grant less than is now proposed in the clause—£20,000 a year.
§ MR. KEIR HARDIEsaid he rose to support the Amendment, not because the amount proposed was too large but because the whole principle was wrong. The reason the House of Commons was called upon to vote the sum was that the Duke of Cornwall was the prospective heir to the Throne, and it was necessary to pay him a sort of retaining fee until such time as he was required to occupy that august position in order that he might learn his duties. Outside Royalty it was not the custom to do any such thing. Business men who desired to train their sons to any particular profession had to bear the cost of that training. Already the House had voted £20,000 for the personal expenses of the Duke of Cornwall and £40,000 for the ships of war which accompanied him, 1515 upon a journey he had undertaken to make himself better acquainted with the various parts of the Empire which he would one day be called upon to rule. He should vote for the Amendment.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 294; Noes, 46. (Division List No. 233).
1517| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Cust, Henry John C. | Hudson, George Bickersteth |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Dalkeith, Earl of | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Jacoby, James Alfred |
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick |
| Allhusen, Augustus Henry E. | Davies, M Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Dewar, T R (T'rH'mlets, S. Geo. | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield | Jones, William (Carnarvons.) |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon | Kearley, Hudson E. |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Doughty, George | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury) |
| Austin, Sir John | Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W (Salop. |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Duncan, J. Hastings | Keswick, William |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Dunn, Sir William | Kimber, Henry |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Edwards, Frank | Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Kitson, Sir James |
| Balfour, Maj K R (Christchurch | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Knowles, Lees |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm. |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol | Fenwick, Charles | Lawson, John Grant |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. Edw. H. |
| Bigwood, James | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) |
| Black, Alexander William | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Leese, Sir Joseph F (Accrington |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Fisher, William Hayes | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Leng, Sir John |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | FitzGerald, Lord Edmond | Levy, Maurice |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex | Fitzroy, Hn. Edw. Algernon | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Bowles, T Gibson (King's Lynn) | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine |
| Brassey, Albert | Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Garfit, William | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John | Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John | Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent |
| Brown, Alex. H. (Shropshire) | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) |
| Brymer, William Ernest | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth |
| Bull, William James | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred |
| Burt, Thomas | Grant, Corrie | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Butcher, John George | Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Caldwell, James | Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.) | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Gretton, John | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Groves, James Grimble | M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.) |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Guthrie, Walter Murray | M'Kenna, Reginald |
| Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire | Hall, Edward Marshall | M'Laren, Charles Benjamin |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Halsey, Thomas Frederick | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Middx | Malcolm, Ian |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Manners, Lord Cecil |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William | Mansfield, Horaoe Rendall |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd | Martin, Richard Biddulph |
| Chapman, Edward | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Maxwell, W J H (Dumfrieshire |
| Charrington, Spencer | Harwood, George | Melville, Beresford Valentine |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Hay, Hn. Claude George | Middlemore, John T. |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Fredk. G. |
| Coddington, Sir William | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Heaton, John Henniker | Montagu, Hon. J. Scott. (Hants. |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Helder, Augustus | Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter | Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh. |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Higginbottom, S. W. | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Hill, Arthur | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Hope, J F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Moss, Samuel |
| Crombie, John William | Houston, Robert Paterson | Mount, William Arthur |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Muntz, Philip A. |
| Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Robson, William Snowdon | Tufnell, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Myers, William Henry | Ropner, Colonel Robert | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Newdigate, Francis Alexander | Round, James | Ure, Alexander |
| Nicholson, William Graham | Russell, T. W. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Nicol, Donald Ninian | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Wallace, Robert |
| Norman, Henry | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Walton, John L. (Leeds, S.) |
| O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham | Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Palmer, George Wm. (Heading) | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Wason, E. (Clackmannan) |
| Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Shaw-Stewart, M. H (Renfrew | Wason, John C. (Orkney) |
| Parker, Gilbert | Simeon, Sir Barrington | Weir, James Galloway |
| Partington, Oswald | Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (T'nt'n) |
| Paulton, James Mellor | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.) |
| Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) | Skewes-Cox, Thomas | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Pease, Herbt. Pike (Darlington | Smith, H. C (N'rth'mb., T'neside | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L. |
| Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley | Smith, James P. (Lanarks.) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Perks, Robert William | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne) |
| Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard | Spear, John Ward | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (N'rth'nts | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Pretyman, Ernest George | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Purvis, Robert | Stevenson, Francis S. | Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.) |
| Quilter, Sir Cuthbert | Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart | Wilson, Charles H. (Hull, W.) |
| Randles, John S. | Stone, Sir Benjamin | Wilson, Hy. J. (York, W. R.) |
| Rankin, Sir James | Strachey, Edward | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | Stroyan, John | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.) |
| Rea, Russell | Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxf'd U.) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Reckitt, Harold James | Taylor, Theodore Cooke | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Reid, James (Greenock) | Tennant, Harold John | Young, Commander (Berks, E.) |
| Renshaw, Charles Bine | Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Ridley, Hon M. W. (Stalybridge | Thomas, F. W. (York, W. R.) | |
| Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson | Thorburn, Sir Walter | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Kelly, James (Rosc'mm'n, N. |
| Blake, Edward | Leamy, Edmund | O'Malley, William |
| Boland, John | Lundon, W. | O'Mara, James |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Caine, William Sproston | M'Dermott, Patrick | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Crean, Eugene | M'Govern, T. | Reddy, M. |
| Cullinan, J. | Mooney John J. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Delaney, William | Murnaghan, George | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Dillon, John | Murphy, John | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Doogan, P. C. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Duffy, William J. | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipp'rary Mid | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Labouchere and Mr. Keir Hardie. |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | |
| Hammond, John | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ Clause 4 agreed to.
§ Clause 5:—
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Clause 5 stand part of the Bill."
§ MR. LABOUCHEREsaid he would not move the Amendment he had placed on the Paper to substitute £50,000 for £70,000. He and his hon. friend had tried to befriend Queen Alexandra, but they had been opposed both by the Government and also hon. Gentlemen 1518 sitting on the Liberal benches. It was quite evident, from what had already taken place, the age of chivalry had passed, and, after the scurvy way in which she had been treated by the House, he did not wish to deprive Her Majesty of any benefit she might derive from this clause in the event of her surviving the King.
§ Clause 6:—
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Clause 6 stand part of the Bill."
1519§ MR. LABOUCHEREobjected to the clause on the ground that it proposed to divide up the amount given to His Majesty into various classes. That was a course of which he disapproved, because, in his opinion, it showed a certain distrust of the King. If a large sum was to be voted for his household the King should be allowed to dispose of that sum. These classes were first adopted in the Civil List of George IV. In the reign of George III. Mr. Burke proposed that the Civil List should be divided into classes, and that the last class should be payments to Lords of the Treasury. The Lords of the Treasury strongly objected to this, because one of Mr. Burke's proposals was that if the amounts in the other classes were exhausted the Lords of the Treasury should not have anything for their class. One reason why he objected to this classification was that it allotted sums not only to particular classes, but to various items in each particular class, and although the sovereign was not obliged to expend money in a particular way, it was a strong recommendation to him to do so. There were a great many political officers in His Majesty's household, and it was a scandal and an outrage that, when a change of Government took place, money which was supposed to be provided for the maintenance of the State was distributed as bribes in the House of Lords. One Lord was made Lord Chamberlain and another Lord Steward. The Lord Chamberlain, the Lord Steward, and the Master of the Horse were of no use—they were merely ornamental. One had only to look at the papers to see that there was a very large body of gentlemen permanently attached to the Court for these purposes. These gentlemen liked the positions, and, he presumed, they liked the money. These positions were simply given to them as rewards for past services to the party in power. He also objected to the ecclesiastical salaries. He took exception, in Committee, to the number of the King's chaplains, which was thirty-four, and he was supported in his action by His Majesty, or at any rate His Majesty was influenced by what he had said, which had no doubt been communicated to him, because he at once reduced the number of his chaplains by twenty-four. 1520 He would like to see that process with regard to chaplains continued. He would like the number to be still further reduced by ten. He would like to see the King rid himself of not only all the chaplains, but the political officers as well. A chaplain got only £40, but over £5,000 was charged for ecclesiastical salaries. That really amounted to an endowment of the Church of England. This was a personal matter, and he did not wish Parliament to interfere with the discretion of the King by laying down the heads of the expenditure, as it showed a want of confidence in him. Now that the money saved in any class went to the privy purse and not back to the Treasury, there was no purpose in dividing the Civil List into classes.
§ MR. M'KENNA (Monmouthshire, N.)also objected to the clause, but for somewhat different reasons. His view was that there was a great deal of expenditure which was useless, and served no proper purpose, and His Majesty also held that view, as would be seen from the fact that he had effected considerable retrenchments in various classes. But the result of all such retrenchments ought to go into the Treasury, and not go to swell the privy purse of the sovereign. The Committee settled an amount which they considered sufficient for the privy purse, and if the clause were allowed to stand it would mean that the effect would be that where any economy was effected in different classes the money saved would go into the privy purse, and not into the Treasury. He submitted that the proper course would be to hold an inquiry into the expenditure in the different classes, and having held that inquiry, to put the total amount of expenditure in each class at a figure which the Committee found to be appropriate, and that the result of any economy which happened to be effected should be paid back into the Treasury. With regard to the ecclesiastical offices, the King himself had now reduced the expenditure on ecclesiastical offices and salaries by £720 a year, and that saving ought not to go to the privy purse, but to the reduction of the Civil List.
§ SIR M. HICKS BEACHI believe that the hon. Member is prema- 1521 ture in saying that economy in the ecclesiastical establishment has already been effected, though the King has had the matter under his consideration. The effect of omitting the clause would be to leave it in the power of the sovereign to decide to what purposes the whole of the Civil List should be applied. That is contrary to the practice of Parliament for many years. If the proposal is adopted Parliament will lose all control over the officers of the Court and the state of the Court. At present, although it is possible to effect economies in the different classes, yet transfers of expenditure from one class to another have to be approved by the Treasury. His Majesty's Government are not prepared to assent to a change which, to my mind, is almost unconstitutional.
§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Monmouth, W.)I very much agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it is impossible to support the view that in voting this large sum of money the sovereign should be allowed to dispose of it as he thinks fit. The whole object of voting this money is to maintain the dignity of the Crown, and Parliament by the Civil List which it proposes indicates in general terms what it regards as belonging to the dignity of the Crown. The hon. Member for Northampton said that this is a new doctrine. So it is. But it was introduced because in the time of George III. the Civil List had been appropriated to purposes of which Parliament did not approve. Anyone familiar with the speeches of Burke on the Civil List would know that he condemned the course taken by George III. on the ground that the Civil List had been devoted, not to maintaining the dignity of the Crown, but to the promotion of the war in America. Therefore the new principle of indicating how the Civil List should be appropriated was adopted; and I must differ from the hon. Member for Northampton in preferring that constitutional doctrine.
§ MR. LABOUCHEREsaid the right hon. Gentleman had offered a piece of advice which might or might not be taken by the sovereign, and which in 1522 many instances, it was quite certain would not be taken. If clauses were put into the Bill by which it was provided that any money not paid to a particular class should remain in the Treasury, he could understand the value of such provisions. The Bill did not provide that the money must be spent in the particular classes, and that did away with the only reason for the division into classes. As the advantages of such an arrangement were not derived by the Treasury it was better that the whole amount should go to the sovereign in one sum. His reason for not voting in the Civil List Committee for the Amendment of the hon. Member for North Monmouth was that after voting against many large, sound, and practical reductions, the hon. Member proposed that after the whole matter had been settled the House should appoint a Committee composed of Members of both Houses of Parliament, and the head housemaid, or the head scullery wench, and other such persons, to consider whether a housemaid could be suppressed here, and a scullery wench there. Such a course would be like shutting the stable door after the steed was stolen. It was derogatory to Members of the House that they should be called upon to sit day after day with two or three housemaids and scullery wenches, to discuss these matters, and therefore he refused to vote for such silly little proposals.
§ MR. M'KENNA, having pointed out that the Amendment to which the hon. Member for Northampton alluded was an altogether different one from that to which he had referred in his previous remarks, drew the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the fact that £193,000 was put down for the expenses of His Majesty's Household, the members of which numbered something over 900. If by proper economies the Household could be reduced to 500, and the charge brought down to £100,000, the Treasury would have no power to prevent that reduction, and the other £93,000 would go automatically into the privy purse, instead of reverting to the Treasury, as the control of the Treasury applied only to transfers from one class to another, and not to reductions or economies in any particular class.
§ SIR M. HICKS BEACHsaid the hon. Member had supposed an impossible case in suggesting that the Royal Household might be reduced from 900 to 500. Under the Amendment now proposed the sovereign would be enabled to abolish the Royal Household altogether, and, if he chose, distribute the money so saved among a number of members of the House of Lords—to whom the hon. Member
§ for Northampton specially objected—or among the members of the Episcopal Bench, to whom the hon. Member for North Monmouth had an even stronger objection.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 233; Noes, 62. (Division List No. 234.)
1525| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Davies, M Vaughan- (Cardigan | Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury) |
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | Keswick, William |
| Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden | Dewar, T. R (T'rH'mlets S. Geo. | Kimber, Henry |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Doughty, George | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Kitson, Sir James |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Duncan, J. Hastings | Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry | Dunn, Sir William | Lawson, John Grant |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hn. John | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
| Austin, Sir John | Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. Hart | Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareh'm |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy | Edwards, Frank | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington |
| Bain, Col. James Robert | Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Leng, Sir John |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J (Manch'r | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Fenwick, Charles | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. |
| Balfour, Maj K R (Christchurch | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H (Bristol) | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Fisher, William Hayes | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) |
| Bigwood, James | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth |
| Black, Alexander William | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Forster, Henry William | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | M'Arthur, Wm. (Cornwall) |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Midd'x) | Garfit, William | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn | Gibbs, Hn A. G. H. (City of Lond | Malcolm, Ian |
| Brigs, John | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John | Mansfield, Horace Rendall |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn) | Martin, Richard Biddulph |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim | Melville, Beresford Valentine |
| Brymer, William Ernest | Grant, Corrie | Meysey-Thomson, Sir H. M. |
| Bull, William James | Greene, Sir E. W (Bry S Edm'nds | Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Fredk. G. |
| Burt, Thomas | Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.) | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Butcher, John George | Griffith, Ellis J. | Morgar, David J. (Walthams'w |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Groves, James Grimble | Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh |
| Carlile, William Walter | Guthrie, Walter Murray | Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Hall, Edward Marshall | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Middx | Morton, Arthur H. A (Deptford |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Rbt. Wm. | Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. | Moss, Samuel |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hardy, Laurence (Kent Ashf'd | Mount, William Arthur |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm | Harwood, George | Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C. |
| Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry |
| Chapman, Edward | Heaton, John Henniker | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath |
| Charrington, Spencer | Helder, Augustus | Newdigate, Francis Alex. |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Hermon-Hodge, Rbt. Trotter | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E | Higginbottom, S. W. | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hill, Arthur | Norman, Henry |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | O'Neill, Hn. Robert Torrens |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Hogg, Lindsay | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield Brightside | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham | Parker, Gilbert |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Hozier, Hon. James H. Cecil | Partington, Oswald |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Jacoby, James Alfred | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard |
| Cust, Henry John C. | Jessel, Capt. Herb. Merton | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Purvis, Robert | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S |
| Quilter, Sir Cuthbert | Skewes-Cox, Thomas | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Randles, John S. | Smith, H C (Northm'b Tyneside | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan |
| Rankin, Sir James | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney |
| Rasch, Major Fredc. Carne | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) | Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts) |
| Rea, Russell | Spear, John Ward | Wentworth-Bruce, C. Vernon- |
| Reid, James (Greenock) | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) | Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd |
| Remnant, James Farquharson | Stevenson, Francis S. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Renshaw, Charles Bine | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne |
| Rentoul, James Alexander | Stone, Sir Benjamin | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson | Stroyan, John | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Taylor, Theodord Cooke | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Robson, William Snowdon | Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E. | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Ropner, Col. Robert | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R. | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Round, James | Thorburn, Sir Walter | Young, Commander (Berks, E. |
| Sadler, Col. Samuel Alex. | Thornton, Percy M. | |
| Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) | Tritton, Charles Ernest | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Sharpe, William Edward T. | Ure, Alexander | |
| Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) | Valentia, Viscount | |
| Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh | Wallace, Robert | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Gilhooly, James | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. |
| Ambrose, Robert | Goddard, Daniel Ford | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Hammond, John | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N |
| Bell, Richard | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Malley, William |
| Blake, Edward | Hope, John Deans (Fife, W.) | O'Mara, James |
| Boland, John | Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Leamy, Edmund | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Levy, Maurice | Reddy, M. |
| Burns, John | Lloyd-George, David | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Caine, William Sproston | Lundon, W. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Caldwell, James | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Crean, Eugene | M'Dermott, Patrick | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Cremer, William Randal | M'Govern, T. | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Cullinan, J. | Mooney, John J. | Sullivan, Donal |
| Delany, William | Murnaghan, George | Weir, James Galloway |
| Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles | Murphy, J. | Whiteley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Dillon, John | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R. |
| Doogan, P. C. | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | |
| Duffy, William J. | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Labouchere and Mr. Keir Hardie. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
§ Clause 7:—
§ MR. LABOUCHEREsaid that in Her late Majesty's Civil List there was a charge for the pensions of her servants, which charge, of course, increased as the reign went on. By this Bill it was proposed to throw £12,000 per annum—the sum to which these pensions now amounted—upon the Consolidated Fund. It was further proposed to charge upon that Fund the sum of £13,000 per annum for pensions and retiring allowances to persons connected with the Household of the late Queen, whose services his present Majesty did not require. While admitting the fairness of the latter proposal, he altogether denied that there would be any injustice in charging the £12,000 upon the King. That sum might be taken generally as the par amount of the 1526 pensions and retiring allowances on the Civil List, and by the proposal of this Bill the sovereign would be relieved for a considerable number of years to the extent of £12,000 a year. By the Amendment he desired to move, £12,000 would be taken as the par amount, and if the present sovereign had to grant for retiring allowances and pensions a larger sum, the difference should be thrown upon the Consolidated Fund.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 3, line 14, after the word 'list' to insert the words 'in any year in which the retired allowances granted by His Majesty, and paid as part of the expenditure of his Civil List, exceed twelve thousand pounds.'"—(Mr. Labouchere.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
1527§ SIR M. HICKS BEACHsaid the hon. Member for Northampton agreed that it would not be fair to throw upon His Majesty the cost of the pensions of the servants of the late Queen who would now be retired, but for one reason or another he would still impose upon His Majesty the£12,000 pensions which existed before the death of her late Majesty. It was clear from the Report of the Civil List Committee that His Majesty contemplated considerable economies by the abolition of offices and the reduction of salaries, and to secure that object no doubt in many cases pensions would have to be paid. Accordingly, there would necessarily be a charge for pensions or gratuities quite irrespective of the amount in respect of servants of the late Queen, and if the Amendment of the hon. Member were carried it would be necessary to propose an increase of the Civil List by a corresponding amount. He therefore could not agree to the proposed Amendment.
§ MR. KEIR HARDIEsaid the reason given for the House being asked to take over this liability was that His Majesty proposed to make a number of reductions. In that event there would be a saving of wages, so that not only was the House to be asked to take over the liability which appertained to the Civil List of the pensions of servants as they became due, but His Majesty was to be allowed to make money by dispensing with the services of different people. To argue that the present Civil List was no more than sufficient to meet the outlay of their Majesties without having to bear this £25,000 a year was carrying the generosity of the nation too far. He intended to support the Amendment of his hon. friend the Member for Northampton.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 58; Noes, 200. (Division List No. 235.)
1529| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N |
| Bell, Richard | Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Malley, William |
| Blake, Edward | Leamy, Edmund | O'Mara, James |
| Boland, John | Levy, Maurice | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Lewis, John Herbert | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Lundon, W. | Reddy, M. |
| Burns, John | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford |
| Caine, William Sproston | M'Dermott, Patrick | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Crean, Eugene | M'Govern, T. | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Cremer, William Randal | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Cullinan, J. | Mooney, John J. | Sullivan, Donal |
| Delany, William | Murnaghan, George | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Dillon, John | Murphy, J. | Weir, James Galloway |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Duffy, William J. | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Labouchere and Mr. Keir Hardie. |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | |
| Hammond, John | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Banbury, Frederick George | Caldwell, James |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Beach, Rt Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) | Carlile, William Walter |
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. |
| Allhusen, Augustus Hy. Eden | Bigwood, James | Cautley, Henry Strother |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Black, Alexander William | Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Blundell, Colonel Henry | Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Cayzer, Sir Charles William |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) |
| Austin, Sir John | Bowles, T Gibson (King's Lynn) | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Brigg, John | Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc. |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Broadhurst, Henry | Chapman, Edward |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Charrington, Spencer |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r. | Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Clare, Octavius Leigh |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) | Brymer, William Ernest | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. |
| Balfour, Maj K R (Christchurch | Bull, William James | Coghill, Douglas Harry |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) | Partington, Oswald |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Hozier, Hon. James Hy. Cecil | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Jacoby, James Alfred | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Purvis, Robert |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H | Randles, John S. |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan | Kimber, Henry | Rankin, Sir James |
| Dewar, T. R (T'rH'mlets, S. Geo. | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Rea, Russell |
| Doughty, George | Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. Akers- | Kitson, Sir James | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Lawson, John Grant | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Dunean, J. Hastings | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T. |
| Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H. | Leese, Sir Joseph F (Accrington | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Edwards, Frank | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Leng, Sir John | Round, James |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Sadler, Col. James Alexander |
| Fenwick, Charles | Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Samuel, Harry, S. (Limehouse) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Sharpe, Wm. Edw. T. |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Smith, H. C (North'mb, Tynes'e |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Macdona, John Cumming | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Maconochie, A. W. | Spear, John Ward |
| Flower, Ernest | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Forster, Henry William | M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.) | Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Malcolm, Ian | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Garfit, William | Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire | Stroyan, John |
| Gibbs, Hn. A. G H (City of Lond. | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E. |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Meysey-Thompson, Sir M. H. | Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Middlemore, John Throgmort'n | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Grant, Corrie | Morgan, David J. (Walthams'w | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Ed'mnds | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Greene, W. Raynond- (Cambs.) | Morrison, James Archibald | Valentia, Viscount |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Morton, Arthur H. A (Deptford | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Groves, James Grimble | Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G (Mid'x | Moss, Samuel | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan |
| Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Mount, William Arthur | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Welby, Lt.-Col A. C. E. (Taun'n) |
| Harwood, George | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Heaton, John Henniker | Newdigate, Francis Alexander | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Helder, Augustus | Nicholson, William Graham | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Higginbottom, S. W. | Norman, Henry | Young, Commander (Berks, E.) |
| Hill, Arthur | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | |
| Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Hogg, Lindsay | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | |
| Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside | Parker, Gilbert |
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 8:—
§ MR. LABOUCHERE moved an Amendment to leave out certain words with the object of providing that Civil List Pensions, which at present amounted to £1,200 a year, to persons connected with literature and art, should not be charged on the Consolidated Fund, as was proposed, but should henceforth be put upon the Budget for the year. He saw no reason why any exception should be made in the case of these particular pensions. Under the present Bill these pensions 1530 were entirely eliminated from the Civil List. He thought he was right in saying that these pensions were granted by the First Lord of the Treasury, who was a literary man. He would say that in such matters he sat at the feet of the right hon. Gentleman, who was his Gamaliel. It must undoubtedly be a very great trouble and nuisance to the right hon. Gentleman to consider the immense number of applications made for this £1,200. The right hon. Gentleman would be greatly relieved if he could tell the zealous friends of some applicant that the granting of the pension would cause a bother in the House of Commons, 1531 It was not because he distrusted the right hon. Gentleman that he proposed this change. It was because it was part and parcel of the constitutional system of this country. Even the right hon. Gentleman made a mistake once. He would mention one curious case in this connection. An eminent poet, who was no doubt quite worthy of the position, got a salary on the Civil List as Poet Laureate, but he also got a pension. The hon. Member thought that was wrong. If he got a salary he ought not to be on the pension list. If the Poet Laureate was incapacitated from writing poetry or anything of that sort, and was retired, then he might get a pension, but not otherwise. Under these circumstances, he moved.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 3, line 25, to leave out from the word 'daughters' to the word 'shall' in line 28."—(Mr. Labouchere.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ SIR M. HICKS BEACHAll these pensions are granted by the sovereign on the recommendation of the First Lord of the Treasury. What the hon. Member desires is that the pensions should not be charged on the Consolidated Fund, but on the Estimates for the year. The hon. Member seems to think that the matter will in some way be brought more particularly before the knowledge of Parliament if the pensions are charged on the Votes; but it is possible to challenge the advice given by the First Lord of the Treasury on the Vote for his salary, and there are also other means of raising the matter. Of course, every year a statement of the new pensions which have been granted is published, and from time to time a list of all the persons holding such pensions is laid before Parliament. These pensions could not be treated in the public accounts in the same way as those for ordinary civil servants, because they do not belong to any particular department. There is also another reason; they are of a different nature to ordinary Civil Service pensions because they are granted by the Sovereign, as a matter of grace and 1532 favour, on the advice of a Minister of the Crown. I must say I think it would detract from the grace of such pensions if they were subject to annual discussion in this House—not merely those granted in the course of the year, but also those granted perhaps years ago. I hope the Committee will not change the practice which has been followed for many years.
MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid the practice which had been adopted for the last sixty years was not the practice that was now to be adopted. During the last sixty years these pensions had been part of the Civil List itself, and as such were properly charged on the Consolidated Fund; they were now removed from the Civil List. They had ceased to be in their nature a Royal act of bounty, and they had become in reality a part of the money at the disposition of the Minister. The whole theory of the matter was that when money was at the disposal of a Minister he should give an account of it, and it should be put into the Votes of the House and subjected to annual review. That was not the case here. The whole of this money, amounting to £24,000 or £25,000 a year, would be at the disposal of the Minister, but it could never appear in any Vote of the House. The only thing capable of being; touched would be the salary of the Minister, which would be a most unsatisfactory substitute. If the First Lord of the Treasury agreed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that this method was necessary, he would be loth to vote against it; at the same time, he did not think the money disbursed in this manner should be charged on the Consolidated Fund. Of course, there might be an answer to that argument, and if so-he hoped it would be forthcoming.
§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,) Manchester, E.I think I can give my hon. friend reasons for thinking, as he suggests, that this is not really an amount which could be criticised. My hon. friend was under a misapprehension in thinking that there was any change in the system introduced by the Bill. My hon. friend is content with the system which prevailed during the life of the late Queen, but he appears to think there has been some change 1533 in the system which is now proposed, but I think I can show that that is not so. The old system was that the sovereign, on the advice of the Minister, gave certain pensions to persons who were considered to be deserving. The new system is exactly the same. The Minister now, as heretofore, has to consult his sovereign's pleasure as to whether such and such a pension should be given to such and such an individual, so that there is no difference whatever between the system which prevails under the present King and that which prevailed under the late Queen. The whole sum on which the Minister advises the sovereign is an amount of £1,200, and not £25,000. It is perfectly true, as the hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment said, that the administration of this money is not a very agreeable task for the Minister responsible; on the contrary, it is an anxious, laborious, and difficult task; but I believe the expenditure to be useful on the whole, and I am sure its utility would be greatly impaired, if not wholly destroyed, if it were made subject to constant debates in Supply. After all, hon. Members know very well that there are discussions that take place in Supply in which the main interest of the gentlemen who take part in them is not the
§ acquisition of important truth for the public, or even for themselves, but an interesting interchange of dialectics between the Minister and the Minister's critics. That is all very well in purely public affairs, but when we come to the financial position of widows and orphans, and the comparative claims of different men of letters or science, the case is different. Then, I think, we should have a personal element, which this House would not be anxious to discuss, but which, if it cropped up in the ordinary course of debate, we should be obliged to discuss, which would be almost a misfortune, necessitating the alteration of the whole practice, which would not then be constitutional. It would be a great change to have these pensions granted, not by the sovereign on the advice of the Minister, but by the Minister in the ordinary course of his ministerial duties. That is not a change which I would recommend, and I would urge the House not to accept it. I would strongly urge the retention of the old system.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 221; Noes, 71. (Division List No. 236.)
1535| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Duncan, J. Hastings |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Carlile, William Wallis | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin |
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William H. |
| Allhusen, Augustus Hy. Eden | Cautley, Henry Strother | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Farquharson, Dr. Robert |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Fenwick, Charles |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hn. John | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith |
| Austin, Sir John | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Finch, George H. |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r | Firbank, Joseph Thomas |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Chapman, Edward | Fisher, William Hayes |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Charrington, Spencer | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey | Clare, Octavius Leigh | Flannery, Sir Fortescue |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Fletcher, Sir Henry |
| Balfour, Maj K R (Christchurch | Coghill, Douglas Harry | Flower, Ernest |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Forster, Henry William |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H (Bristol) | Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Garfit, William |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond |
| Black, Alexander William | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Goddard, Daniel Ford |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Cranborne, Viscount | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn) | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim |
| Brassey, Albert | Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham | Grant, Corrie |
| Brigg, John | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan | Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Denny, Colonel | Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Groves, James Grimble |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Doughty, George | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. L G (Midd'x |
| Bull, William James | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. |
| Butcher, John George | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. |
| Harris, Frederick Leverton | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Heaton, John Henniker | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Helder, Augustus | Morgan, D. J. (Walthams'w) | Seton-Karr, Henry |
| Hermon-Hodge, Robert T. | Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F. | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Higginbottom, S. W. | Morrison, James Archibald | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Hill, Arthur | Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) | Smith, H C (North'mb Tyneside |
| Hogg, Lindsay | Mount, William Arthur | Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightsd. | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Smith, Hon. F. W. D. (Strand) |
| Horniman, Frederick John | Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute | Spear, John Ward |
| Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Hozier, Hon. James Henry C. | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Hudson, George Bickersteth | Myers, William Henry | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Jacoby, James Alfred | Newdigate, Francis Alexander | Strachey, Edward |
| Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Nicholson, William Graham | Stroyan, John |
| Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Norman, Henry | Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E. |
| Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury) | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Kimber, Henry | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Thornton, Percy M. |
| King, Sir Henry Seymour | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Kinloch, Sir John George S. | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Kitson, Sir James | Parker, Gilbert | Valentia, Viscount |
| Lawson, John Grant | Parkes, Ebenezer | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Partington, Oswald | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | Peel, Hn. Wm Robert Wellesley | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney |
| Leng, Sir John | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts) |
| Levy, Maurice | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd |
| Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Pretyman, Ernest George | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Long, Rt Hn Walter (Bristol, S.) | Purvis, Robert | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Randles, John S. | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Rankin, Sir James | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent) | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th) | Rea, Russell | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Macdona, John Cumming | Reid, James (Greenock) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.) |
| Maconochie, A. W. | Remnant, James Farquharson | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Renshaw, Charles Bine | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W | Rentoul, James Alexander | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| M'Laren, Charles Benjamin | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson | Young, Commander (Berks, E.) |
| Majendie, James A. H. | Ropner, Colonel Robert | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Malcolm, Ian | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter | |
| Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire | Round, James | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Gilhooly, James | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Bell, Richard | Hammond, John | O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.) |
| Blake, Edward | Harwood, George | O'Malley, William |
| Boland, John | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Mara, James |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Kennedy, Patrick James | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Burns, John | Leamy, Edmund | Price, Robert John |
| Caine, William Sproston | Lewis, John Herbert | Reddy, M. |
| Caldwell, James | Lundon, W. | Redmond, J. E. (Waterford) |
| Cameron, Robert | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | M'Dermott, Patrick | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Cogan, Denis J. | M'Govern, T. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Crean, Eugene | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Cremer, William Randal | Mooney, John J. | Sullivan, Donal |
| Cullinan, J. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Delany, William | Moss, Samuel | Weir, James Galloway |
| Dillon, John | Murnaghan, George | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Murphy, John | Wilson, H. J. (York, W. R.) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Duffy, William J. | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) | |
| Edwards, Frank | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Labouchere and Mr. Keir Hardie. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Md | |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time to-morrow.
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cc1537-40
- DEMISE OF THE CROWN BILL. 390 words