HL Deb 24 June 1991 vol 530 cc414-6

2.40 p.m.

Lord Stallard asked Her Majesty's Government:

How many responses have been made to the proposals to deregulate London bus services set out in the Green Paper on a new transport strategy for London, how many of these have supported the proposals and how many have opposed them.

The Minister of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)

My Lords, we have received more than 200 responses to the consultation paper A Bus Strategy for London. Those responses are currently being assessed. An announcement on the Government's conclusions following the consultation exercise will be made shortly.

Lord Stallard

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Is it not a fact that of those 200 responses the vast majority were opposed to the proposals and that the fiercest criticism came from companies in the private sector such as Grey-Green Coaches Ltd.? It has told the Government that the proposals would involve large fare increases, worsening congestion and untold misery for millions of Londoners. Evidence from deregulated metropolitan areas outside London suggests that, although more road miles are travelled by buses, patronage has fallen. Is there not a certain amount of complacency in the noble Lord's reply? Is it perhaps that the Government have underestimated the scale of the opposition, or is it just that once again they are not prepared to listen?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I do not think that there was any complacency in the reply I gave. My reply was purely factual. It listed the number of responses that were received and went on to say that an announcement would be made shortly. Nothing in that could be considered to be complacent. The noble Lord will have to wait to see the conclusions of the consultation. It is true to say that more responses opposed deregulation than supported it. But that is no surprise, as radical change is often met with resistance.

Baroness Phillips

My Lords, how many responses were received from the physically handicapped; and what was the reaction to their various questions?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I am afraid that I do not have a breakdown of the 200 responses that were received.

Lord Clinton-Davis

My Lords, the Minister said something rather surprising when he said that in situations of this kind one might expect an overwhelming degree of opposition. Of course there is ample precedent for that—for example, with the poll tax, where the Government pigheadedly went on notwithstanding opposition. But what does the Minister say in response to the points made by Grey-Green Coaches Ltd. as rehearsed by my noble friend Lord Stallard? Does he say that there is anything in those allegations; or does he say that they are absolute piffle? What does he say?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, first, I must point out that I did not say that there was overwhelming opposition in the responses. Indeed, nowhere will the noble Lord find that those words were used by me. I said that there were more responses opposing the proposals than supporting them. I then went on to say that radical changes often meet with resistance. I recall that noble Lords opposite opposed the deregulation of long distance coaches some years ago. That has proved now to be extremely popular with the travelling public.

Lord Clinton-Davis

My Lords, the Minister has not even begun to answer the question that I put to him and that which was put by my noble friend. Even if it causes some offence to the noble Lord the Leader of the House, I must point out that Ministers are here to answer questions. Therefore, will the Minister answer the question put by my noble friend about the representations made by Grey-Green Coaches? The Government seem to be in a very temperamental mood today, judging by the behaviour of their supporters. Will the Minister tell us his response to the claims made by Grey-Green? They are extremely important. Moreover, they do not come from the Labour Party; they come from the independent sector.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, if I have failed to answer the noble Lord's questions it is perhaps because I normally answer two questions at a time, as laid down by the Companion to the Standing Orders. I in fact answered two questions and the noble Lord has asked me a third. That is fair enough. However, as I said in my original Answer, the responses to the consultation are being currently assessed and will be announced shortly.

Lord Mellish

My Lords, the Minister has said that there is a consultative document. I understand that fact. I should have thought that it was a very good thing actually to consult and talk about the proposals. However, can the Minister tell us a little more about when he hopes that the Government will make a decision on their future plans?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, our aim is to introduce new legislation to give effect to the proposals as soon as possible in a new Parliament.

Lord Stallard

My Lords, will the Minister accept that he has hardly answered any of the questions which have been put to him? For example, the point made by my noble friend about the needs of the physically handicapped has been widely publicised by the Consumers' Association. He must have a better reply than that which he gave to my noble friend. In all honesty, would it not be better to shelve this proposal and set up an independent review body to look at the overall picture of transport, not just in London but also in the deregulated metropolitan authorities?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I do not think so. Deregulation outside the London area has, on the whole, been a great success. I do not believe that anyone would wish to go back to the old system. We propose to extend those benefits to the London area. We have, therefore, issued the consultation paper, inviting comments on those proposals.

Lord Williams of Elvel

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Phillips asked a specific question. It is the purpose of Question Time to elicit information from the Government. In his answer, the Minister said that he did not have that information. By giving that answer, is he undertaking to write to my noble friend with the information and, if so, will he put a copy of that information in the Library?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I said that there were over 200 responses to the consultation paper and that an announcement on the Government's conclusions following the consultation exercise will shortly be made. If that announcement does not include the specific point raised by the noble Baroness, I undertake to write to her on the matter and place a copy of the letter in the Library.