§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ Whether they will permit local authorities to use a greater proportion of their capital asset sales to revive their house building programmes.
§ The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Baroness Blatch)My Lords, the balance between debt redemption and new investment is kept under review. Local authorities are required to set aside part of their capital receipts to meet outstanding loan debt and other credit liabilities. The remainder they may spend on new capital investment.
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, is the Minister aware that that kind of Answer makes one almost want to stamp one's foot in sheer frustration? Is she also aware that in Swindon in 1979, when I was the Member of Parliament for that great constituency, people on the housing list were being rehoused within weeks? The council was also able to assure engaged couples that they would be rehoused when they married. However, is she further aware that in Swindon now, under a Conservative Government, there is a seven-year waiting period and homeless 417 people are being put into hotel and hostel accommodation? That is happening at a time when the borough council has received £23 million from the sale of council houses which it could very well spend on solving its homeless problems and those of the people who are waiting for housing.
Therefore, does the Minister agree that it would be sensible at this time, when the building industry is suffering its worst slump for well over 12 years, for these funds to be used not only to help the homeless but also to help the Government dig themselves out of the slump which they have created?
§ Baroness BlatchMy Lords, this particular Question has been answered many times. Moreover, the explanation as to why the system operates in the way in which it does has been explained many times. Where the receipts are the greatest is where the needs are the least; where the needs are the greatest is where the receipts are the least. That is why the Government choose to target resources on the areas with the greatest need. That is done by limiting the expenditure of capital receipts, using the surplus to reduce debt, and maximising credit approvals. That allows resources to go to the areas of greatest need.
§ Lord GainfordMy Lords, are there any schemes or systems available by which housing can be provided without people having to go through local authorities?
§ Baroness BlatchMy Lords, it would take almost too long to catalogue the agencies involved in providing houses. One of the difficulties is that noble Lords opposite appear to believe that municipal authorities are the only providers of houses. They are merely a part of the system available to provide houses for people who need them.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the Minister aware that there are literally tens of thousands of families living in bed-and-breakfast accommodation and that the yearly cost of that accommodation would almost provide them with a home of their own? If the Government showed some initiative and asked local authorities to carry out some of the proposals suggested a moment ago by my noble friend, two things would be achieved: the stigma of having to live in bed-and-breakfast accommodation would be removed and people would be given a fair crack of the whip and helped to have a home of their own—something with which the party opposite agrees. Will the Government try to do something to achieve that aim so that people living in bed-and-breakfast accommodation will have a brighter and better future?
§ Baroness BlatchMy Lords, the Government's record for providing houses and addressing the difficulties caused by homelessness is excellent. It certainly compares favourably with that of the previous Labour Government. Mr. Gould is on record as saying that he will spend an extra £3 billion on housing construction, repairs and maintenance; that he wil1 extend the role of housing associations, with which we agree; that there will be no limit on local government expenditure; that there will be no capping 418 for local authorities and no limit on spending receipts. How does that square with the fact that there will be no spending unless there is the money to provide for it?
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, the Minister did not answer my question.
§ Viscount MountgarretMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the problem might be alleviated if the Government were to encourage some local authorities to adopt a more realistic and lenient attitude towards planning applications for the building of houses on private land? Such applications are often turned down. If some authorities took a more lenient attitude, we might find more houses being built.
§ Baroness BlatchMy Lords, my noble friend makes an interesting point. I have no doubt that there is some scope in relation to planning approvals. There is also scope in the better management of housing and in bringing empty houses back into use. There is much scope for improvement. The problem is not all about resources.
§ Lord Dean of BeswickMy Lords, I hate to say it, but the answers the Minister has so far given have shown that she has not been doing her homework. Is she aware that only last week the Association of District Councils and the AMA submitted reports to Sir George Young, the Housing Minister, showing that in 1990–91 under the present system of allocation of capital receipts, local authorities will receive £1,891 million, as against £2,406 million in the previous year? That is a substantial drop of 21 per cent. Is she also aware that the vice-chairman of the ADC, Lady Elizabeth Anson, said that the decline in local authority housing investment had in recent years been so great that not only were councils now unable to provide low-cost houses for sale or rent but their ability to repair and modernise their existing stock was also under threat? Will the Minister undertake to correct that situation, in everyone's interests?
§ Baroness BlatchMy Lords, credit approvals for local authorities have increased by £102 million to £2 billion for 1991–92; housing revenue subsidy has reached £3.5 billion; Housing Corporation expenditure will be over £2 billion by 1993; an extra £50 million has been spent on rural low-cost housing; £270 million has been directed towards estate action programmes; over £300 million for two years, in addition to mainstream funding, has been provided to help the statutory homeless in London and the South East; over £100 million has been provided to combat single homelessness and rough sleeping in London; home ownership has increased to 69 per cent.; and the housing stock has increased by 2 million since 1979. The Government's record stands up very well against that of the previous Labour Government.
§ Lord Dean of BeswickMy Lords, will the Minister tell us why in reply to the two associations that I have mentioned Sir George Young said that they had made 419 out a most powerful case for extra resources and that he would take it on appeal to the Treasury? Will the Minister back her Minister instead of coming to the Dispatch Box and trying to mislead people?
§ Baroness BlatchMy Lords, I hope that I am not misleading people. All the figures that I have given are actual figures. Good cases for more resources can always be made out. No one is being complacent about the requirement to spend money on such an important need. We have a fine Housing Minister in my honourable friend Sir George Young. He is doing a good job for those who require homes and is making considerable progress in that respect.
§ Lord John-MackieMy Lords, where are the areas of less need about which the Minister spoke? I know of no area in this country that does not need housing.
§ Baroness BlatchMy Lords, when operating budgets one has to determine priorities. Receipts are highest in areas such as Surrey or Kent, whereas the need is greatest in areas such as Leeds or Liverpool.
§ Lord StallardMy Lords, the Minister said that the Question has been answered many times, but does she accept that an inadequate answer has been given to the simple question of why councils are not allowed to spend more of their own money on replacing some of the units that have been lost? Is not the shortage at present in affordable rented accommodation, which in the main can be provided only by housing associations and local authorities? But they need resources. Why will the Government not accept the fact that they have the resources but that they need the Government's permission to spend them?
§ Baroness BlatchMy Lords, it is not present policy to allow all local authorities to spend all their capital receipts. As I have said, receipts are greatest where the need is least; where the need is greatest, receipts are the least; and so a mechanism has been put in place which allows the Government to redistribute credit approvals to ensure that those areas in greatest need receive the greatest help.
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords—
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, it is no good noble Lords moaning, I am going to make this point—
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, the question will be answered more quickly if noble Lords opposite and on the sidelines stop heckling. Is the Minister aware that she is wrong when she accuses Members on this side of the House of not understanding the position? We understand the position perfectly well. First, we know—
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, I am answering the Minister's question. Is she aware that we understand that the Government's record is 420 incomparably bad? Is she also aware that when the Government put forward their proposals to sell council houses one of the arguments used was that local authorities would be able to use the resources made available to build new houses? That is not happening. Will she please do something to ensure that it does happen?
§ Baroness BlatchMy Lords, I have given reasons why the mechanism is in place. The policy advocated by noble Lords opposite will be colossally expensive. It would cost taxpayers a great deal. That conundrum has yet to be answered by noble Lords opposite.