§ 2.41 p.m.
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what the last year's financial results were of the consortia exploiting British Government licences for gas exploitation and what percentage the profits represented on total investment for exploration and exploitation.]
§ LORD DENHAMMy Lords, the information in the form requested by the noble Lord is not available.
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the OPEC countries, which include the smallest Sheikhdoms of the Gulf, have this information? Why should not the British Government have the same information?
§ LORD DENHAMBecause, my Lords, the information is very difficult to get. It is extremely difficult to work out exactly what the costs of the gas exploration are. It is an extremely risky business, as I am sure the noble Lord is aware. Only one in forty of exploration wells lead to commercial production. An exploration well in the North Sea costs somewhere between £300,000 and £2 million, according to circumstances. To find out the figures which the noble Lord wants would be very difficult indeed.
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that both the American Government and the Sheikhdoms have this information? It cannot be difficult to get. Moreover, is the noble Lord aware that most of these consortia have the Gas Council and the Coal Board as members, and therefore they ought to have the information readily available?
§ LORD DENHAMMy Lords, I quite appreciate the worries behind the noble Lord's Question. I am sure that my right honourable friend will pay close attention to what he has said. But I must come back to my original Answer: it is not the practice, where agreement has been reached between a nationalised Board and the production companies, for the Minister to interfere.
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, is not the Minister unaware of the fact that in the steel case a different attitude was taken? Further, is he not aware of the fact that a penny in the pound over the life of these gas fields represents something between £1,000 million and £1,500 million? Is he not aware of the fact that most of this £1,000 million to £1,500 million will go over the exchanges because even in the case of B.P. a large part goes over the exchanges? And will he not readily agree with me—
§ LORD BALOGHNo, my Lords; I am not going to give way. It is not a speech. Will not the noble Lord readily agree with me that in this case an intervention was necessary, and it is a grave defalcation of duty that it has not happened?
§ LORD DENHAMNo, my Lords; I cannot agree with all that the noble Lord has said. On the other hand, the noble Lord's knowledge and wisdom in these matters is well known, and I have no doubt that my right honourable friend will read with great interest what the noble Lord has said.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, does not the noble Lord think that the Government ought to be able to make these calculations and publish this information, especially in consequence of the huge increase in the number of civil servants that has taken place since the present Government came into office?
§ LORD DENHAMNo, my Lords; for the reasons I have already given, I do not.
§ LORD HANKEYMy Lords, would the Government agree that it is important that the price paid should represent a return on gas from the North Sea which is such that the companies and the consortia are encouraged to go on drilling and looking for more, and thereby improving our balance of payments?
§ LORD DENHAMMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, has raised a very important point.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that if this is an important point he ought to know whether in fact they are getting an adequate return? Is he aware that the questions of 761 my noble friend Lord Balogh might relate equally to the welfare of the companies and the consumers? Will the noble Lord therefore consider further whether he will press his right honourable friend actually to read this exchange and consider the policy in the matter?
§ LORD DENHAMMy Lords, I shall certainly do what the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition has asked me. While I was certainly aware of what the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, has said, as I have said before the information asked for by the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, is not available; and I have explained why it is not available.
§ LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORDMy Lords, as my noble friend is aware of the history of this exploration that takes place over several years, is he able to tell us what the record of difficulty has been over the last six years in gathering this information together?
§ LORD DENHAMNo, my Lords; but I will write to my noble friend.