§ 3.6 p.m.
§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Huntingdon.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly:
§ [The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair.]
§ Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.
613§ Clause 4 [Supervisory functions of Council of College]:
§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDONThis is a drafting Amendment, and it is to indicate more clearly that the observers appointed by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons have the right to observe only their own veterinary examinations and no other examinations at the university. I think this is an extremely sensible and obvious point, and I trust your Lordships will accept the Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 34, leave out ("held by any university") and insert ("leading to a degree").— (The Earl of Huntingdon.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDONThis is also a purely drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 36, leave out ("examination") and insert ("examinations").—(The Earl of Huntingdon.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 5:
§ Restriction of practice of veterinary surgery by unqualified persons.
§ (2) The expression "veterinary surgery" in the last foregoing subsection, shall not include—
- (a)the doing of anything specified in the First Schedule to this Act;
- (b)any minor treatment, test or minor operation specified by order of the Ministers under this paragraph made after consultation with the Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, so long as any conditions specified in the order are complied with.
§
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved, in subsection (2) (a), to omit "the First Schedule to this Act," and insert:
Part I of the First Schedule to this Act and not excluded by Part II of that Schedule.
§ The noble Lord said: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name, and in so doing perhaps I may have leave of the Committee to deal not only with this Amendment but also with the second and third Amendments which stand in my name in regard to the First Schedule. The last two are consequential upon the first. As the Bill stands at the present time, the operation of castration may be 614 carried out upon any animal of any age by an unqualified veterinary practitioner. I am sure that it must be a matter of grave concern to your Lordships that this painful, operation, which is always attended by the risk of infection, should be so carried out. I am certain that, from the humanitarian point of view, we would all wish for operations of this kind to be carried out by qualified veterinary surgeons, with an anæsthetic and all the other aids to veterinary surgery. There are, however, practical considerations to be borne in mind.
§ First, there is a great dearth of veterinary surgeons, and it would be an economic impossibility to stipulate at the present time that this particular operation must be carried out by qualified veterinary surgeons. Secondly, there is the added difficulty of determining with any great degree of accuracy the age of an animal. If your Lordships will refer to the Table contained in my proposed Amendment to the First Schedule, you will observe the periods of time which all the expert; advice agrees are the easily determinable ages of the animals concerned. Though I would prefer (especially in the case of a horse, which has always been called a noble and sensitive animal) to have a younger age than two years, I quite realise the practical difficulties and, therefore, I have agreed to move the Amendment with the ages as set out. I beg to move my Amendment to Clause 5.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 27, leave out from ("in") to end of line 28 and insert ("Part I of the First Schedule to this Act and not excluded by Part II of that Schedule.")—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDONThe Government are pleased to accept this Amendment. I should like to say that there is agreement between the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons and the National Farmers' Union that the most suitable ages at which a line should be drawn are those stated in the Table. We have great pleasure in accepting the noble Lord's Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ EARL DE LA WARR moved, in paragraph (b) of subsection (2), to omit "minor," where: hat word occurs a second time. The noble Earl said: In the absence of my noble friend Lord 615 Bledisloe I would like to move this Amendment which stands in his name. I do not think it is necessary to say much in its justification. Indeed, I think that it could almost be put forward as a drafting Amendment, for I believe that it rather expresses the views of the Government. Quite simply, by taking out the second word "minor," it makes the first word "minor" apply to test and operation, as well as to treatment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 29, leave out the second ("minor").—(Earl De La Warr.)
§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDONHis Majesty's Government are pleased to accept this Amendment. As the noble Earl has said, it is more a drafting Amendment than anything else. We are satisfied as to its terms and are pleased to accept it.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 6 agreed to.
§ Clause 7:
§ Licensing of employees of animal welfare societies.
§ 7.—(1) Where, on the representation of a society or institution which—
- (a) is wholly supported by voluntary contributions or endowments or both, and
- (b) provides and was immediately before the coming into operation of this Act providing, free medical or surgical treatment for animals.
§ (4) If it appears to the said Minister that the society or institution has acted in contravention of the undertaking given in pursuance of the last foregoing subsection or that the person to whom the licence has been granted has failed to comply with any condition specified therein or has given any treatment or carried out any operation not authorised by subsection (2) of this section, the Minister may, after giving both the holder of the licence and the society or institution in question an opportunity of being heard, revoke the licence or suspend it for such period as the Minister thinks fit.
§
EARL DE LA WARR moved, in subsection (1), to omit "if he thinks fit" and insert:
after consultation with the Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.
§ The noble Earl said: This clause is designed to enable the Minister, if he thinks fit, to grant a licence to the employees of animal welfare societies who are not themselves registered veterinary surgeons. I should like to see inserted here, after the words "Minister may", the words "after consultation with the Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons." I tell the noble Earl frankly now that I do not intend to press this Amendment. I think it would be an improvement to the Bill, and I hope that he will be able to accept it. I think it would give some confidence to the profession if he would do so. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 3, leave out from ("may") to the end of the line and insert ("after consultation with the Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons").—(Earl De La Warr.)
§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDONI am afraid that we have to resist this Amendment. The reason is that it has been found on examination to be rather impractical from the administrative point of view. If the Amendment were inserted in the Bill, we would have to consult the Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons on each occasion when licences had either to be granted or revoked. That would mean that there would be unceasing going and coming on each individual case. The Bill lays down that we have to consult generally, and, if it will give any satisfaction to the noble Earl, I shall be happy to give the assurance on behalf of my right honourable friend that the Minister will consult the Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons with regard to the supply of veterinary surgeons at any particular time. Although we are very ready to consult on general lines, I think that we have to resist this Amendment, which, as I have explained, would make consultation obligatory on every occasion.
§ EARL DE LA WARRI cannot help thinking that the noble Earl has put a reasonable case against my Amendment as it stands. I am wondering whether he could not tell us that an Amendment on the lines of his assurance would be considered for insertion in the Bill in another place. I suggest insertion in another place because I do not think any of us would wish to see the passage of the Bill 617 delayed here. If the noble Earl can say that that suggestion will be considered, we shall be grateful. He will realise, I am sure that there is a great difference between a ministerial assurance—because Ministers, even the best of them, sometimes come and go—and something which is actually embodied in an Act of Parliament.
§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDONI shall be happy to give the noble Earl the assurance that this matter will be looked at before the Bill goes to another place and that it will be thoroughly examined, bearing in mind what he has said.
§ EARL DE LA WARROn that assurance, I shall be happy to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDONThis Amendment is purely a matter of clarification. Its purpose is to make it clear that if the holder of a licence carries out any of the operations mentioned in the First Schedule he will not be liable to lose his licence. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 24, after ("by") insert ("or under subsection (2) of Section five of this Act or").—(The Earl of Huntingdon.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
EARL DE LA WARR had an Amendment on the Paper to insert as a new subsection after subsection (4):
(5) At any time after the first day of January, 1959, the said Minister may make an Order terminating the operation of this section providing he is satisfied that an adequate number of veterinary surgeons exists for the care of the animal population, and that sufficient facilities exist for the treatment of animals belonging to persons unable to afford the services of a veterinary surgeon.
§ The noble Earl said: This, again, is an Amendment which I will ask the noble Earl if he can have considered before the Bill goes to another place. I say that because, on further consideration, I do not: think that the Amendment as drafted quite expresses my intention. This Amendment implies that the Minister should have power to revoke any licences that have been granted. That is not the purpose I have in mind. What I am afraid of is that the Minister should have this continuing power to issue licences year by year, so that it might still be going on in twenty-five or fifty years' 618 time, with the result that what we hoped to put a stop to—the creation of these unregistered practitioners—would continue. The intention which I have just explained is not really embodied in the Amendment. While not moving the Amendment, I would, however, ask the noble Earl whether he can give us an assurance that the matter will be looked at again.
§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDONI shall be happy to give the noble Ear an assurance that there will be a further examination of this matter between now and the next stage of the Bill in another place.
§ Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT ADDISONI must crave your Lordships' indulgence in order to make a statement. I therefore move that, for a short time, the House do now resume.
§ Moved, That the House do now resume.—(Viscount Addison.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to, and House resumed accordingly.