State Security (Hansard, 9 December 1986)

§ Mr. D. M. Campbell-Savours (Workington)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I want to raise a point of order about questions, and this is a legitimate point of order.
During the course of the proceedings in New South Wales about the Wright case, Sir Robert Armstrong, in the course of giving evidence, said that there were aspects of Mr. Chapman Pincher's book that breached security. You will remember, Mr. Speaker, that there were a number of comments from either side of the House about whether it was in the national interest that those inclusions should be in the book.
During an interview this morning on Radio 4, Mr. Chapman Pincher said—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I have no connection with Radio 4. I must have a question that I can answer.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours
Absolutely, Mr. Speaker. During the course of the interview, Mr. Pincher said that he had been authorised to write his book—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. These are legitimate questions to ask of a Minister or of the Prime Minister, but not to ask of me. I have no knowledge of these matters. I am here to ensure that Standing Orders are complied with. I do not think that this point of order has anything to do with Standing Orders.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours
May I say, Mr. Speaker, that as a Member of this House, one must be allowed in all fairness, very briefly, to develop a point of order. If you were to say that I was wrong to do so before I had even reached the point of order itself—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Member knows the rules as well as I. I can rule only on matters for which I have responsibility. I have no responsibility for the case that is going on, or for what is said on Radio 4.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours
There is a question that has been answered today. I tabled a question to the Attorney-General, asking—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I am sorry, but I cannot deal with a point of order on that matter.

§ Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. This is a legitimate matter for debate, but it is not a legitimate matter of order. I am sorry, but I cannot hear the hon. Gentleman any further on this matter.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
No, I am not taking it.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Surely the question is—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. [Interruption.] Order.

§ Mr. Dalyell
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I want to ask for the protection of the Chair. It may be within your recollection, Mr. Speaker, that I was the late Dick Crossman's Parliamentary Private Secretary. It is a matter of great concern as to why on earth everything should be 199 made public in that court other than the points referring to the actions against the late Dick Crossman and the Prime Minister whom I served. How is it—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. Again, I must tell the hon. Gentleman that I have no responsibility for what is happening in that court. I am responsible only for matters of order in this House. These are perfectly legitimate points to raise in debate. There are plenty of opportunities to do that, but the matter should not be raised through me.
The Clerk will now proceed to read the Orders of the Day.

§ The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Malcolm Rifkind)
rose—

§ Mr. Max Madden (Bradford, West)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sorry to pursue a matter that I raised at Prime Minister's questions concerning the case of Mr. John Lee, a reporter on the Croydon Midweek Post, who has been charged under section 2 of the Official Secrets Act 1911.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot pursue that now. First, it is a continuation of Question Time and not a matter for me. Even if the gentleman in question were a constituent of mine, it would not be a matter for me.

§ Mr. Madden
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. No, I cannot take it. It is unfair on those waiting to take part in the debate.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours
You do not know what the point of order is, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
It is unfair to seek to continue Question Time through the Chair. There is no conceivable point of order for me on this matter. The hon. Gentleman raised the matter at Question Time and received an answer from the Lord Privy Seal. That, as far as I am concerned, is the end of it.

§ Mr. Madden
Further to my point of order—

§ Mr. Speaker
I will give the hon. Gentleman one final chance to raise a point of order for me; otherwise he must desist.

§ Mr. Madden
I am seeking your guidance, Mr. Speaker, and I make it clear that the Gentleman in question is not a constituent of yours. When I put my question at Prime Minister's Question Time, you interjected, Mr. Speaker, and asked whether the matter was sub judice. I am seeking your guidance now on whether the matter is sub judice. I understand that Mr. Lee has been charged, so the matter is not sub judice. However, I would appreciate it if you could make inquiries and give guidance to the House, as I am sure that many hon. Members may wish to pursue the matter by question and other means and we would appreciate your advice on whether that is permissible.

§ Mr. Speaker
That is hypothetical at the moment. If the matter is raised, I shall judge whether it is sub judice. [Interruption.] Mr. Rifkind.