HC Deb 28 October 1985 vol 84 cc661-2
33. Mr. Dalyell

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will study the proposals made by Sir Douglas Wass for the establishment of a Royal Commission to look at questions of civil servants' loyalty, ministerial involvement in appointments and public accountability of Whitehall officials and for the establishment of an independent inspector general to whom civil servants can appeal if they consider that Ministers are attempting to mislead Parliament, a copy of which has been sent to him.

The Minister of State, Privy Council Office (Mr. Richard Luce)

I understand that the article to which the hon. Gentleman refers was written as a contribution to public discussion. I shall be interested to see comments upon it, but the Government have no plans for establishing a Royal Commission on these matters.

Mr. Dalyell

Did Ministers notice that, with the full argeement of my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley), my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), speaking on behalf of the national executive committee of the Labour party at the Bournemouth conference, committed the party to the propositions encapsulated in the question? How can anybody resist my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover when he is shoulder to shoulder with a former permanent secretary to the Treasury?

Mr. Luce

The hon. Gentleman will be astonished to discover that I find it quite easy to resist his proposal, and that of the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner). Procedures for the Civil Service are perfectly straightforward and well provided for. If civil servants have complaints, or if matters of conscience arise, there is a system of appeal that goes straight up to their permanent secretary if they wish. Such matters can ultimately be referred to the head of the Civil Service. The existing procedures are perfectly adequate.

Mr. Forman

As the Government have been commendably sefl-restrained in not establishing new Royal Commissions. and as it seems clear that, when he was in a senior position in the Civil Service, Sir Douglas Wass did not favour this proposal, will my hon. Friend follow his wise policy. study it, and reject it?

Mr. Luce

I assure my hon. Friend that there is no intention of forming a Royal Commission on this subject.

Mr. Skinner

What is wrong with civil servants having a chance to appeal? Is the Minister aware that, in the past few months, there have been at least two instances of top civil servants taking non-executive directorships in private companies? They include civil servants in the Department of Trade and Industry. If it is right for civil servants, through the Government, to take on jobs in the private sector while holding down a top job in the Civil Service, surely to God it must be right for one on the other side of the fence to have a chance to appeal when he is being hammered by people such as Sir Robert Armstrong.

Mr. Luce

What is so extraordinary about all this is the assumption that there is no proper procedure for appeal if civil servants think that something has gone wrong. There is a perfectly legitimate procedure which was laid down clearly in a note by the head of the Home Civil Service, which he published at the end of February. It sets out quite plainly the procedure that any civil servant can follow if he has a problem that he wants to pursue.

Mr. Dickens

Does not my hon. Friend think this question rather strange, coming from the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell), who was the very hon. Member who used his voice for Clive Ponting? Was it not he who tabled questions planted by Clive Ponting and which were to be answered by Clive Ponting, who then denied that he was the author? Is it possible that the hon. Member for Linlithgow is a hypocrite, disloyal, or has taken leave of his senses? [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. I ask the hon. Member to withdraw the word hypocrite.

Mr. Dickens

indicated dissent.

Mr. Speaker

I say to the hon. Member, who knows this perfectly well as he has been here long enough to know it, that that is not a parliamentary expression. I ask him please to withdraw that word.

Mr. Dickens

indicated dissent.

Mr. Speaker

I give the hon. Member one more chance. I would be very reluctant to take the matter any further. He knows very well that that was not a parliamentary expression and I ask him now to withdraw it.

Mr. Dickens

Out of respect to the Chair, I withdraw the remark.