§ The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Michael Jopling)With permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall make a statement on the Council of Fisheries Ministers meeting in Brussels on 31 January. Together wih my noble Friend the Minister of State, Scottish Office, I represented the United Kingdom.
The Council reached agreement, on the basis of compromise proposals put forward by the presidency and the Commission, on the total allowable catches and quotas for 1984 for all fish species other than North sea herring. The scientific advice on the management of the herring stocks will not be available for a few more months. We obtained significant improvements over the original proposals on a number of stocks of interest to United Kingdom fishermen, in particular cod and haddock in the west of Scotland, western mackerel and a variety of sole and plaice stocks in western and southern waters. We have a clear commitment from the Commission that every effort will be made in further discussions with Norway to secure an increased availability of North sea cod. We secured greater flexibility for our fishermen in respect of the closure of the mackerel fishery north west of Scotland. The Council has, therefore, for the first time set total allowable catches and quotas early in the year to which they relate. This is an important achievement since it gives fishermen throughout the Community a secure basis on which to plan their catching and their marketing operations.
Pending receipt of the full scientific evidence on herring in the North sea, the Council approved interim arrangements, which the Commission had agreed with Norway. Under this agreement, up to 31 July Norway will be free to fish for 15,000 tonnes while the member states of the Community will have quotas totalling 54,300 tonnes for the same period. The allocation of these quotas has been carried out on the basis of the key agreed at the Council on 14 December. The question of the distribution of member states' quotas between the three areas of the North sea will be studied and a report made to the next Council in March. While I expressed concern at the relative size of the interim allocation to Norway, I accepted the proposal on the basis of a clear Council declaration confirming the declaration agreed on 3-4 October concerning the distribution of North sea herring as between Norway and the Community and emphasising that the interim arrangements agreed for the early months of 1984 do not prejudice the definitive allocation for 1984 and subsequent years.
The Council also agreed on the conclusion of a reciprocal fisheries agreement for 1984 with Sweden, an agreement with Senegal on access to fishing opportunities there on an improved basis, and a new agreement with Seychelles on access to tuna fishing operations.
Finally, I raised the question of progress on the arrangements for improved enforcement of the common fisheries policy. I was told that as of today, nine of the 13 Community inspectors would be in post and that, while it has not been easy getting hold of people of the right quality and experience, the remaining four inspectors had been nominated and would be in post wthin the next few months. As to the Community logbooks and landing declarations, consultation on their text and format has now been completed and tenders for printing will be issued in 277 the next few days. This Council therefore marked an important step in transforming the common fisheries policy into a living and working reality.
§ Mr. Robert Hughes (Aberdeen, North)I acknowledge that yesterday's early and unexpected agreement is welcome and represents a movement towards stability of which the fishing fleet in general approves. However, will the right hon. Gentleman in turn acknowledge that issues still remain to be resolved before the flaws in the common fisheries policy can be removed? Is it not the case that the industry wants greater cod quotas? I am sure that the Minister is aware of the industry's view that there are restrictions on fishing for herring which limit its chances of achieving its quotas. I support the conservation measures which avoid overfishing and protect stocks, but will the Minister hold discussions individually with the industry and with the scientists involved about the advice that he has received on fishing particular areas?
I agree that enforcement, policing and inspection are the key to the whole deal. Is April now the firm, latest possible date for the introduction of the logbooks, which are already long overdue? What steps are being taken to monitor the reporting procedures at an early stage, so that any failures are quickly identified and put right at the earliest opportunity? If inspection proves inadequate—as we think it will—will the right hon. Gentleman move towards the more rigorous inspection standards and systems which we have suggested, so that neither quotas nor TACs are exceeded?
Finally, I refer to the interim agreement with Norway. Will the right hon. Gentleman give a clear and categorical assurance that, when the final discussions are under way, he will resist any attempt to give Norway more herring than is already suggested and that he will not be bought off by some sort of swap for an increased cod and haddock quota, which the industry understandably wants.
§ Mr. JoplingI am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the welcome that he has given to the settlement of the 1984 TACs and quotas. I also welcome his endorsement of the industry's general approval.
I understand the hon. Gentleman's point about the need for greater cod quotas, and I am conscious of the problems that will be caused to our white fish industry. Because of a reduction in the stock, it has been necessary to reduce the TAC of cod, particularly in the North sea. However, I am extremely pleased that we have been able to increase the cod quota in the west of Scotland by about 800 tonnes. That is welcome. I should like to put cod fishing in perspective. In area IV, which is the North sea, and area IIA, which is adjacent, we shall this year have 47 per cent. of the catch, with a quota of just under 93,000 tonnes. That compares, in 1982–83, with the same percentage and 114,700 tonnes. Between 1973 and 1978—when we had only 43.1 per cent. of the North sea cod—the average was only 83,677 tonnes. Therefore, we are not doing badly.
I am glad to have the hon. Gentleman's support on conservation, and I am also glad he agrees that inspection is vital. However, I cannot give an undertaking that the inspectors will all be in place by April. I fear that they will not be, although I have been pressing the Commission on that. One difficulty is that some of the right people who have been found to do the job are finding it difficult to become disentangled from their existing jobs. We shall watch carefully the quality of monitoring and inspection.
§ Mr. HughesCan the Minister say something about the logbooks?
§ Mr. JoplingThe Commission was unable to give me a date yesterday for the introduction of the logbooks. I asked that question and specifically put it on the agenda. In the course of next week the logbooks are going out to tender for printing and we shall press the Commission to get them into use as soon as possible. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that that is vital.
As I implied in my earlier statement, I have been unhappy about the amount of herring in the North sea that has been allocated to Norway, and I have expressed my views about that. I am happy to say that we have been able to make it clear to the Commission that the 15,000 tonnes that Norway has been allocated, and the arrangements made with Norway, are interim arrangements only and do not prejudice the definitive allocation for 1984 and subsequent years. That was agreed by the Council. We must be extremely tight on the Commission's activities in negotiating with Norway on that joint stock.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Again I remind the House that a ten-minute Bill and an Opposition Day follow the statement. Accordingly, I shall allow questions on the statement to go on for half an hour.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I meant not a further half hour, but half an hour in all.
§ Mr. HicksI assure you, Mr. Speaker, that I shall not be on my feet for half an hour. In the context of conservation enforcement, did my right hon. Friend manage to raise the very sensitive issue that has arisen in the mackerel box off the coast of south-west England? Very serious abuses are occurring because of the activities of a minority of fishermen. Did my right hon. Friend raise the specific question of adjusting the terms of the existing directive on the subject? Is he aware of the urgency of the situation? If agreement cannot be reached through Community channels, will my right hon. Friend consider the alternative of closing the mackerel fishery this year?
§ Mr. JoplingI am conscious of the disquiet felt in the south-west about the many mackerel that have been taken out of the box adjacent to that part of England. That box was introduced for the sole purpose of protecting the mackerel stock. The number of mackerel taken out of the box since 1 November is comparable to the figure for last year. The figure is slightly less, but not very much less. That has been done because there is a derogation with regard to bottom trawling. My hon. Friend asked what I had done about the situation. The answer is that I made a point of talking to the Commissioner about it in the margins of the Council and asking him to see whether the situation was satisfactory. No doubt we shall be able to raise the subject with him again if necessary.
§ Mr. David Penhaligon (Truro)With regard to the point that has just been made, will the Minister confirm that it is impossible to catch mackerel by bottom trawling? Can he find out why, suddenly, it is so difficult to get a bottom trawl to stay on the bottom of the ocean as opposed to going along in mid-water? All that is required is a simple step by the Minister to stop the derogation of the 279 regulation which is supported by the House and by anyone with a long-term interest in conservation. When will he do something to stop this practice!
§ Mr. JoplingIt is interesting that the hon. Gentleman should raise that question, because it is one that I asked the fishermen yesterday: how is it possible to catch a pelagic species by demersal techniques? I am told that the reason is that at certain times of the day the pelagic species go to the bottom of the sea. That is the moment when the fishermen seem to scoop them up. My inspectors have been watching with the greatest care the techniques used by those who are fishing in the box off the south-west of England and they have not been able to find a scrap of evidence of techniques other than bottom trawling, which, I must stress, is perfectly legal.
§ Mr. Albert McQuarrie (Banff and Buchan)I am graterful to my right hon. Friend for the success that he has had on TACs for cod and haddock. I stress what was said by the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) about the herring quota for Norway in comparison to that for our fishermen.
In regard to the southern pout box, my right hon. Friend will be aware that it comprises 27,000 square miles. I hope that in any discussion he will not permit pressure to be brought to bear by hon. Members from that area against Scottish fishermen who are engaged in fishing for mackerel in the southern box.
§ Mr. JoplingI hear what my hon. Friend says about the problems caused by the reduction in the cod quota in the North sea. The depletion of the stock has made a smaller quota necessary.
§ Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington)Address the House.
§ Mr. JoplingIf the hon. Member does not mind, I would rather address the Chair.
When I answered the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) I referred to the herring quota which had been agreed with Norway. In regard to the south-west mackerel box, I am afraid that I am not in a position, nor would I dream of trying because it would be a hopeless quest, to prevent hon. Members from that part of the world from putting pressure on the Commission or anyone else to deal with what they see as a serious issue.
§ Mr. Donald Stewart (Western Isles)Can the Minister tell us whether there was any discussion about setting up local management committees to cover the points made by the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon)? These have been asked for by fishermen throughout the United Kingdom. If not, can he say whether the Common Market as a whole has any objection in principle to the setting up of these committees, which would not conflict with the agreement already made?
§ Mr. JoplingIf the right hon. Gentleman does not mind my saying so, one might get into serious difficulties if one were to go all the way down the road on local management committees. When the Commission and the Council are formulating policy, I always listen carefully to the views of local people and fishermen in particular. Indeed, I had two meetings yesterday with representatives of the fishing industry, who were able to give me helpful advice.
§ Sir Peter Mills (Torridge and Devon, West)I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his success. May this be a good omen for success on the agricultural problems? I remind my right hon. Friend that fishermen throughout the country and particularly in the south-west are concerned about who will check the inspectors to see that the tonnages are kept to. Will he redouble his efforts to ensure that there is no cheating, as there is in regard to other products within the Community? Finally, may I reinforce what has been said by my neighbour and hon. Friend the Member for Cornwall, South-East (Mr. Hicks) about the mackerel box? We will not have other people coming in and raiding our mackerel in the south-west.
§ Mr. JoplingI am very grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind remarks at the beginning and for his congratulations. I shall press as hard as I can to get the inspectorate in place as soon as possible. During the last seven or eight months I have raised the matter in the Council of Ministers more often than all the other Fisheries Ministers put together, and I shall continue to do so. I hear what my hon. Friend says about the mackerel box. I cannot add to what I have already said about this, having drawn it to the attention of the Commissioner himself.
§ Mr. Gavin Strang (Edinburgh, East)Is the Minister aware that the interim arrangements on North sea herring are inadequate and deeply disturbing? Is he aware also that it would be a scandal if the Scottish fishing industry, having made enormous sacrifices because of the North sea herring ban, were prevented from benefiting from the stocks that are coming back?
§ Mr. JoplingIt is difficult to understand how the hon. Gentleman can make those remarks, because, as he well knows, we have not reached the time of year when the scientists make their recommendations on total allowable catches for 1984. Because of the nature of the species, we do not usually get the advice of the scientists until April or May. I am told that it would not be sensible for it to be given earlier. Therefore, it is not yet possible to decide what the total allowable catches should be for herring out of the North sea. Bearing in mind the need to make a decision as soon as possible after the scientists have reported, we have had discussions.
It is clear from the agreement that the fishery is open from now. Perhaps I should have made that clearer. The herring fishery in the North sea will be open straight away on an interim basis up to 31 July. The quotas for each country will be on the basis of the agreed key on which the Council decided after months of argument and desperately difficult negotiations which were completed in December. Nothing will be done to divert from that key. The fishermen gave me their support for the deal that I made on their behalf, which was excellent on North sea herring. It is on the basis of that key that we shall be allocating Britain's quota when we know how high it should be.
§ Mr. David Harris (St. Ives)Reverting to the box, my right hon. Friend referred to disquiet, as he put it, among south west fishermen. Is he aware that that is a massive understatement of the feelings of the fishermen, 12 of whom came up last week from the coves and small ports of Cornwall? They do not have a powerful financial lobby. As no decision was taken yesterday, although we are grateful that the Minister raised it, does it not mean that 281 no action will be taken until the next meeting of Fisheries Ministers at Community level on 5 March? If my right hon. Friend confirms that, will he consider seriously the necessity of closing the box to commercial fishing now to protect the stocks?
§ Mr. JoplingI am sorry that I gave the impression that I was understating the gravity of the situation in the eyes of my hon. Friend and his friends from the south-west of England. I detected the need to tread wearily with my hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. McQuarrie), who has left the Chamber, who takes strongly opposite views on this matter. There will not be another Council until 5 March, but I assure my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Harris) that we shall keep the matter very much in mind during the next few weeks.
§ Mr. Robert Maclennan (Caithness and Sutherland)Is the Minister aware that it gives us genuine pleasure to be able to congratulate him and his colleagues in the Council on reaching an important agreement so early in the year, especially as advantage must now be taken of the restructuring arrangements? The certainty which the settlement has given is warmly welcomed. Does he accept, however, that there is disappointment, especially with regard to North sea cod and haddock quotas as there has not been an increase in the TACs for them, and that the agreement with Norway about herring might make it more difficult to ensure that Scotland gets its fair share when the Government receive their scientific advice?
Does the Minister accept that many people are extremely sceptical about the adequacy of the proposed arrangements for conservation? Even though those arrangements are not in place and it is therefore not possible to determine their effectiveness, we shall want an opportunity to debate their adequacy within months of their being in force. Will he listen carefully to the views of local fishermen about management and carefully consider the possibility of structurally establishing area management?
§ Mr. JoplingI am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his generous remarks. With regard to the restructuring arrangements, it gives me great pleasure that we have been able to give fishermen 11 months' notice so that they know where they stand, what will happen and what they will be able to catch. That means that they can plan ahead much more satisfactorily than has inevitably been the case in the past.
I hear what the hon. Gentleman says about his disappointment with regard to North sea cod and haddock stocks. This is necessary solely because of the smaller level of the stocks. The hon. Gentleman would be the first to be critical if the TACs had been set too high and caused the stock to decline even more. What he said about adequate conservation effectively answered that point.
I hope that a fair share of herring for Scotland will be dealt with. Following our initiative in the Council yesterday, the Commission has agreed to an urgent review of the way in which the total herring catch in the North sea should be carved up between the areas IVA, IVB and IVC so that people fishing in the Scottish Area, IVA, are dealt with adequately when we set the quotas.
§ Mr. Gerald Malone (Dundee, South)I add my congratulations to my right hon. Friend, especially as this is an issue on which right hon. and hon. Members do not 282 usually heap congratulations on his head. Although the agreement will be most welcome to the fish processing industry in Aberdeen, as it will ensure a sufficient quantity of white fish for it to continue its business, will my right hon. Friend please bear in mind that there should be no compromise on TACs in this area, as any reduction would result in great difficulties for that industry?
§ Mr. JoplingI am conscious of what my hon. Friend says. He is right to say that the agreement will ensure adequate quantities of fish for fish processors. Moreover, the agreement will mean that the fish will appear in even quantities over a long time provided that the fishery is properly managed. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he said.
§ Mr. Archy Kirkwood (Roxburgh and Berwickshire)Is the Minister aware that his scientific advice not being available for a few more months will throw those who fish the central North sea area west of 3 deg east into some confusion, as I understand that they operate principally between 15 August and 30 September? It is essential, therefore, that fishermen in that area get an earlier decision on the management of herring stocks, so that the nets and the processing industry can be geared up to cope. With regard to the difficulties which the east coast fisheries are suffering because of reductions in cod and haddock TACs, will the Minister seriously consider central quotas, under regional management schemes, so that the constraints on the catch can be spread over a more sensible fishing period?
§ Mr. JoplingPerhaps I might correct the hon. Gentleman. These are complicated matters, but I think that, with regard to herring in the central North sea, he referred to the fisheries being active between 15 August and 30 September. As I understand it, that is the time when the area is closed for conservation reasons.
§ Mr. Robert Hughesindicated assent—
§ Mr. JoplingI am glad to see that the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) agrees.
§ Mr. HughesThey want it open.
§ Mr. JoplingYes, the fishermen want us to open the area. We have an agreement from the Council to review that closure period before August. We shall consider whether it is wise to keep it closed. I have already said that there will be an opportunity to review the amount of cod that we get from Norway. We shall see whether it is possible to get more from Norway later in the season.
§ Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow)Can the Minister give any news of changes in the Community funding of training for fishermen, bearing in mind the Government's decision to withhold funding from the Sea Fisheries Training Council? In view of the council's excellent record on training in survival and fire fighting and of novices, will the Minister assure us that there will be no diminution in the provision of such essential training for our fishermen?
§ Mr. JoplingThat matter was not discussed in the Council yesterday. The new Commissioner—it was his first meeting in the chair—gave notice that he was anxious for the Council to discuss these matters in the near future. No doubt I shall be able to report to the House some time in the future about those discussions.