§ POWERS OF SECRETARY OF STATE TO GIVE DIRECTIONS
§ Lords amendment: No. 1, in page 3, line 33, at end insert "Bus".
4.21 pm§ The Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mrs. Lynda Chalker)I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.
This amendment is purely technical, and designed to correct a slip in the drafting. The mistake arose when amendments Nos. 7 and 8 were agreed to on Report. The amendments, which were intended to meet points raised by the Opposition, provided for the Secretary of State to consult the county councils in appropriate cases before issuing a direction to the bus company. As a result of the amendments the word "Bus" was inadvertently left out of the description of the company. "Bus Company" is the term used in major references throughout part I. It is defined in clause 7.
§ Mr. Albert Booth (Barrow-in-Furness)I hope that I was not previously represented as being unduly critical of another place. Lords amendment No. 1 suggests that the other place has done public transport interests a singular disservice by drawing what is almost a fatal defect in part I of the Bill to the Government's attention. Had the amendment not been tabled, it would have been impossible for the Secretary of State to use the powers provided under clause 3 to direct the bus company. We should reject the Lords amendment knowing that by doing so we shall deny the Secretary of State power to issue instructions to the National Bus Company.
It is clearer now than when the Bill was last before the House that the Secretary of State intends to use the powers provided under clause 3 to instruct the National Bus Company to sell off two types of operation—first, its highly profitable long-distance coaching services and, second, its holiday services. We are not only worried about the loss of a further valuable, profitable, publicly owned industry, we are—
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill)Order. We are dealing with a Lords amendment which is basically a drafting amendment. It is not in order to open up a wide debate on the major issue of the bus company. We are dealing with one amendment that inserts the word "Bus".
§ Mr. BoothI am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if I did not explain the scope within which I was working. I intended to be extremely careful to show the balance of the argument. Clause 7—the interpretation clause—as presently drafted states that "the Bus Company" means "the National. Bus Company". That is to be found in line 24 on page 6 of the Bill.
Unless the Lords amendment is carried, clause 3 cannot possibly bite upon the National Bus Company. The Lords amendment enables the Secretary of State to give 904 instructions to the National Bus Company under clause 3. If one is opposed to the Secretary of State giving such instructions, it must be in order to develop arguments as to why it would be wrong for him to have the power to give such instructions.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI am bound by the rules of the House. The amendment relates to page 3, line 33, to insert the word "Bus" into clause 3. We read "the Bus Company" throughout the rest of clause 3. We must confine our debate to whether the word "Bus" should be inserted before the word "Company".
§ Mr. BoothPrecisely. If the word "Bus" is not in subsection (1), the power for the Secretary of State to give instructions is circumscribed within the clause. As the Minister fairly pointed out, the remainder of the clause deals with consultations about instructions to the bus company. The clause gives the Secretary of State power to give a direction, and if one amends that to "Bus Company" it has a clear and specific meaning derived from the interpretation in clause 7.
If we amend the clause to read "Bus Company", we are unquestionably giving a power to the Secretary of State to instruct the National Bus Company. If the House rejects the Lords amendment it will be contended that the Bill does not give such a power. It could be challenged by the National Bus Company in the courts that the Bill gives the Secretary of State a power to direct it. That is important because of certain developments that have taken place between the time of the Bill leaving and returning to the House. The Secretary of State has proceeded on the assumption, presumably, that the Lords amendment would be carried. If that is so, the House must surely have the right to debate the amendment before deciding whether the Secretary of State is to be given such a power.
The Secretary of State could not possibly have such a power until the Bill becomes law. If the Bill becomes law without the Lords amendment, he will not have the power to direct the bus company. I want to argue briefly why he should not have such a power.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerWill the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that this is basically a drafting amendment? The right way to register his objection would be for him to advise his right hon. and hon. Friends to vote against it.
§ Mr. BoothI accept your guidance, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and shall advise my right hon. and hon. Friends accordingly.
If the amendment is carried, it will make it clear beyond peradventure that the Secretary of State has the power to direct the National Bus Company under the definition in clause 7. If he so directs, as he has said and as we believe he is proceeding in his discussions with the NBC to do, it will mean a considerable loss of profitability from the sections that are sold off. The money is currently used to subsidise extensive stage carriage operations which are desperately required in a number of parts of the country.
If the amendment is carried, it will also raise the question for the House about whether the loss is to be made up by transport supplementary grant. The signs are that it will not be.
The extraction of the coaching services, which will be possible if the Lords amendrnent is carried, would make 905 a number of valuable joint services uneconomic. Over the past year the stage passenger mileage has fallen substantially. The company's coaching operations have risen enormously from 46 million service miles in the financial year 1980–81 to 62 million.
I call on all hon. Members to oppose the Lords amendment.
§ Mrs. ChalkerI repeat that this is a drafting amendment. At an earlier stage the provisions for consultation with the National Bus Company were written into the Bill. Part I of the Bill is all about the NBC. The Secretary of State must have the power to require it to exercise its powers under sections 1 and 2 of the Act.
The problems that the right hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) is worried about account for only 1½ per cent. of the group's working profit. From his comments one would have thought that the sum was much greater.
§ Mr. Peter Fry (Wellingborough)Are there not individual companies within the group where the figure is much higher? One example is Southdown, where coaching makes a considerable contribution to overall profit. Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Government are aware of that fact and that it will be taken into consideration in any future allocation of TSG?
§ Mrs. ChalkerWe are aware of the significant variations in different parts of the country. But the right hon. Gentleman was talking about the express and holiday sectors, and the figure for that is 1½ per cent. of the group's working profit.
Having taken a power to consult, we are in a better position to consider individual needs in the NBC's operations in different parts of the country.
§ Question put, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment:—
§ The House proceeded to a Division—
§ Mr. James Lamond (Oldham, East)(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I should like to draw to your attention the fact that on the way to the Division from the Upper Committee Floor and in very good time to be here to vote the lift stuck with seven hon. Members inside. I wonder whether there is anything that can be done to ensure that those of us who were inadvertently prevented from voting are able to vote.
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill)If that is so—I must take it as being so as the hon. Gentleman has raised the matter—the only solution is to have the Division again. Is that the wish of the House?
§ Mr. Arthur Lewis (Newham, North-West)(seated and covered): Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it not the case that if the two "usual channels" agree, it is possible for you to insert the hon. Members' names in the Division list without wasting the time of the House on another vote?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I have no power to direct that names be entered if hon. Members have not voted. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to press the issue, the only solution is to have the Division again. Does the hon. Gentleman wish to press the issue?
§ Mr. Lamond(seated and covered): Since a number of votes will have to be taken this evening which will take a good deal of time, I am prepared not to press the matter.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerSo be it.
§ The House having divided: Ayes 279, Noes 196.
909| Division No. 327] | [4.35 pm |
| AYES | |
| Adley, Robert | Eyre, Reginald |
| Alexander, Richard | Fairbairn, Nicholas |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Fairgrieve, Sir Russell |
| Alton, David | Faith, Mrs Sheila |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Farr, John |
| Ancram, Michael | Fell, Sir Anthony |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Fenner, Mrs Peggy |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H.(S'thorne) | Finsberg, Geoffrey |
| Atkinson, David (B'm'th,E) | Fisher, Sir Nigel |
| Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) | Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'gh N) |
| Banks, Robert | Fletcher-Cooke, Sir Charles |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Beith, A. J. | Forman, Nigel |
| Bendall, Vivian | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay) | Fox, Marcus |
| Benyon, Thomas (A'don) | Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh |
| Benyon, W. (Buckingham) | Fry, Peter |
| Best, Keith | Gardiner, George (Reigate) |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Glyn, Dr Alan |
| Blackburn, John | Goodhew, Sir Victor |
| Blaker, Peter | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Body, Richard | Gorst, John |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Gow, Ian |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Gower, Sir Raymond |
| Bowden, Andrew | Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Gray, Hamish |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N) |
| Brinton, Tim | Grist, Ian |
| Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon | Grylls, Michael |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Gummer, John Selwyn |
| Brotherton, Michael | Hamilton, Hon A. |
| Brown, Michael(Brigg & Sc'n) | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Bruce-Gardyne, John | Hannam, John |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Buck, Antony | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael |
| Budgen, Nick | Hawkins, Sir Paul |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Hawksley, Warren |
| Burden, Sir Frederick | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Butcher, John | Heddle, John |
| Carlisle, John (Luton West) | Henderson, Barry |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Chalker, Mrs. Lynda | Hicks, Robert |
| Channon, Rt. Hon. Paul | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Chapman, Sydney | Hill, James |
| Churchill, W. S. | Holland, Philip (Carlton) |
| Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n) | Hooson, Tom |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Hordern, Peter |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Clegg, Sir Walter | Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldf'd) |
| Cockeram, Eric | Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) |
| Colvin, Michael | Howells, Geraint |
| Cope, John | Hunt, David (Wirral) |
| Corrie, John | Irvine, Bryant Godman |
| Costain, Sir Albert | Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick |
| Crouch, David | Jessel, Toby |
| Dickens, Geoffrey | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith |
| Dover, Denshore | Kaberry, Sir Donald |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Kershaw, Sir Anthony |
| Dunn, Robert (Dartford) | King, Rt Hon Tom |
| Durant, Tony | Kitson, Sir Timothy |
| Dykes, Hugh | Knox, David |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Lamont, Norman |
| Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke) | Lang, Ian |
| Eggar, Tim | Latham, Michael |
| Elliott, Sir William | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel |
| Lee, John | Rost, Peter |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Royle, Sir Anthony |
| Lester, Jim (Beeston) | Rumbold, Mrs A. C. R. |
| Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy |
| Lloyd, Ian (Havant &W'loo) | St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N. |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Loveridge, John | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Luce, Richard | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Lyell, Nicholas | Shepherd, Richard |
| McCrindle, Robert | Shersby, Michael |
| Macfarlane, Neil | Silvester, Fred |
| MacGregor, John | Sims, Roger |
| MacKay, John (Argyll) | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Macmillan, Rt Hon M. | Smith, Dudley |
| McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) | Speed, Keith |
| McQuarrie, Albert | Speller, Tony |
| Major, John | Spence, John |
| Marland, Paul | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| Marlow, Antony | Sproat, lain |
| Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Squire, Robin |
| Marten, Rt Hon Neil | Stainton, Keith |
| Mates, Michael | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus | Stanley, John |
| Mawby, Ray | Steen, Anthony |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Stevens, Martin |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Stewart, A.(E Renfrewshire) |
| Mayhew, Patrick | Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Stokes, John |
| Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Tapsell, Peter |
| Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Moate, Roger | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M. |
| Moore, John | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Morgan, Geraint | Thompson, Donald |
| Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) | Thorne, Neil (llford South) |
| Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Murphy, Christopher | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Myles, David | Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath) |
| Neale, Gerrard | Trippier, David |
| Nelson, Anthony | Trotter, Neville |
| Neubert, Michael | van Straubenzee, Sir W. |
| Newton, Tony | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Onslow, Cranley | Viggers, Peter |
| Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S. | Wainwright, R.(Colne V) |
| Owen, Rt Hon Dr David | Wakeham, John |
| Page, John (Harrow, West) | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Page, Richard (SW Herts) | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D. |
| Parris, Matthew | Wall, Sir Patrick |
| Patten, Christopher (Bath) | Waller, Gary |
| Pattie, Geoffrey | Walters, Dennis |
| Pawsey, James | Ward, John |
| Percival, Sir Ian | Warren, Kenneth |
| Peyton, Rt Hon John | Wells, Bowen |
| Pink, R. Bonner | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Pitt, William Henry | Wheeler, John |
| Pollock, Alexander | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Porter, Barry | Whitney, Raymond |
| Price, Sir David (Eastleigh) | Wickenden, Keith |
| Proctor, K. Harvey | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Raison, Rt Hon Timothy | Wilkinson, John |
| Rathbone, Tim | Williams, D.(Montgomery) |
| Renton, Tim | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Rhodes James, Robert | Wolfson, Mark |
| Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Ridsdale, Sir Julian | |
| Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW) | Mr. Anthony Berry and |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Mr. Carol Mather. |
| Rossi, Hugh |
| NOES | |
| Abse, Leo | Bagier, Gordon A.T. |
| Adams, Allen | Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) |
| Allaun, Frank | Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd) |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Benn, Rt Hon Tony |
| Ashley, Rt Hor Jack | Bennett, Andrew(St'kp't N) |
| Ashton, Joe | Bidwell, Sydney |
| Atkinson, N.(H'gey,) | Booth, Rt Hon Albert |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon A.(M'b'ro) | Johnson, James (Hull West) |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Johnson, Walter (Derby S) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda) |
| Brown, R. C. (N'castle W) | Jones, Barry (East Flint) |
| Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) | Kerr, Russell |
| Buchan, Norman | Kilroy-Silk, Robert |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. | Lambie, David |
| Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n & P) | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Campbell, Ian | Leighton, Ronald |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Lestor, Miss Joan |
| Canavan, Dennis | Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW) |
| Cant, R. B. | Litherland, Robert |
| Carmichael, Neil | Lofthouse, Geoffrey |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Lyon, Alexander (York) |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | McCartney, Hug |
| Clarke,Thomas(C'b'dge, A'rie) | McDonald, Dr Oonagh |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) | McGuire, Michael (Ince) |
| Cohen, Stanley | McKelvey, William |
| Coleman, Donald | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor |
| Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. | McMahon, Andrew |
| Conlan, Bernard | McTaggart, Robert |
| Cook, Robin F. | Marks, Kenneth |
| Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill) | Marshall, D(G'gow S'ton) |
| Cryer, Bob | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Cunningham, Dr J. (W'h'n) | Mason, Rt Hon Roy |
| Dalyell, Tam | Maxton, John |
| Davidson, Arthur | Maynard, Miss Joan |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) | Meacher, Michael |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Mikardo, Ian |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd) | Milian, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Deakins, Eric | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby) |
| Dewar, Donald | Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) |
| Dobson, Frank | Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw) |
| Dormand, Jack | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Douglas, Dick | Morton, George |
| Dubs, Alfred | Moyle, Rt Hon Roland |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Dunnett, Jack | Newens, Stanley |
| Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
| Eadie, Alex | O'Neill, Martin |
| Eastham, Ken | Palmer, Arthur |
| Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n S E) | Parker, John |
| Ellis, R. (NE D'bysh're) | Parry, Robert |
| English, Michael | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Ennals, Rt Hon David | Pendry, Tom |
| Evans, loan (Aberdare) | Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) |
| Evans, John (Newton) | Prescott, John |
| Ewing, Harry | Race, Reg |
| Fitch, Alan | Richardson, Jo |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Roberts, Allan (Bootle) |
| Ford, Ben | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) |
| Forrester, John | Robinson, P. (Belfast E) |
| Foster, Derek | Rooker, J. W. |
| Foulkes, George | Ross, Ernest (Dundee West) |
| Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd) | Rowlands, Ted |
| Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Sever, John |
| George, Bruce | Sheerman, Barry |
| Golding, John | Sheldon, Rt Hon R. |
| Gourlay, Harry | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Graham, Ted | Short, Mrs Renée |
| Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife) | Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford) |
| Hardy, Peter | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Skinner, Dennis |
| Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith | Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark) |
| Healey, Rt Hon Denis | Snape, Peter |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Hogg, N. (E Dunb't'nshire) | Stallard, A. W. |
| Holland, S. (L'b'th, Vauxh'll) | Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles) |
| Home Robertson, John | Stoddart, David |
| Homewood, William | Stott, Roger |
| Hooley, Frank | Strang, Gavin |
| Howell, Rt Hon D. | Straw, Jack |
| Huckfield, Les | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Thomas, Dr R.(Carmarthen) |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Tilley, John |
| John, Brynmor | Tinn, James |
| Torney, Tom | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Urwin, Rt Hon Tom | Williams, Rt Hon A.(S'sea W) |
| Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) |
| Wardell, Gareth | Wilson, William (C'try SE) |
| Wainwright, E.(Dearne V) | Winnick, David |
| Walker, Rt Hon H.(D'caster) | Woodall, Alec |
| Watkins, David | Woolmer, Kenneth |
| Welsh, Michael | Wright, Sheila |
| White, Frank R. | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| White, J. (G'gow Pollok) | |
| Whitehead, Phillip | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Whitlock, William | Mr. James Hamilton and |
| Wigley, Dafydd | Mr. Allen McKay. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.