HC Deb 06 April 1982 vol 21 cc813-5
5. Mr. Jim Marshall

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will list the organisations which were asked to participate in the working party on charges for overseas visitors but who declined to do so; and what were the reasons given for their refusal.

Mr. Clarke

Only the Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants declined to serve on the working party, because it was concerned with the implementation of a policy to which it was opposed.

Mr. Marshall

When will the Government and the Minister realise that, under this scheme, the black community in Britain will pay a heavy price for saving an unspecified amount of money? Inevitably and invariably it will be the black community that will have to prove its residence status.

Mr. Clarke

The working party contained representatives of community relations councils and of the Commission for Racial Equality as well as overseas doctors. They were particularly asked by Ministers to concentrate on arrangements that were fair to all patients and did not disadvantage ethnic minorities. We believe that that will be the effect of our proposals. We shall produce a manual of guidance that will make it clear that there should be no racial or ethnic discrimination in the arrangements. We shall consult all the bodies involved, including the Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants, which has said that it is happy to be involved in consultations, even if it does not wish to serve on the working party.

Mr. Latham

Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that Conservative Members do not consider the scheme to be racist in any way? We believe that foreigners should have to pay for treatment here, just as we have to pay when N; e visit other countries.

Mr. Clarke

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those comments. It is estimated that the new arrangements will raise £6 million extra for the National Health Service. Most of that money will come from tourists. There is no reason why they should not insure against ill health before visiting Britain, just as we have to do when we visit other countries.

Mr. Freeson

Does the Minister realise that there have been cases—and he is doing nothing to prevent there being more cases——

Mr. Robert Atkins

Under the old scheme.

Mr. Freeson

I accept that, but the Minister is doing nothing to prevent an increase in the number of those who should not be questioned from being questioned. What will be the administrative cost?

Mr. Clarke

The right hon. Gentleman has answered his own question. As the working party discovered, there were cases of racial discrimination. If we had continued with the old arrangements, the risk of racial discrimination would have remained. However, we are introducing arrangements that will be accompanied by a manual of guidance that instructs the staff not to continue with those old and unfortunate practices. The working party contained people who knew more about administrative costs than the right hon. Gentleman or I know. It described the increased administrative costs as absolutely insignificant. The right hon. Gentleman is scratching about to find absurd reasons for resisting an extra £6 million for the National Health Service.

Mr. Robert Atkins

Does my hon. and learned Friend recognise that I have received nothing but support from administrators, doctors and nurses within the NHS, whatever their country of origin or colour? When will he be able to curtail the abuses that remain after his most excellent proposals?

Mr. Winnick

What about all those phoney letters?

Mr. Clarke

We shall have to introduce the new arrangements before we can tell whether they will curb—as we hope that they will—the limited abuse of present arrangements. As my hon. Friend knows from all the examples that he has obtained, the present abuses annoy doctors and nurses within the NHS. They cannot understand why we waive potential income to the NHS, which most tourists would be happy to provide through insurance.