§ Amendment proposed: No. 6, in page 2, line 18, leave out 'children' and insert 'pupils'.—[Dr. Boyson.]
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill)With this it will be convenient to take Government amendment No. 29.
§ Mr. WhiteheadThe Under-Secretary of State is fond of sotto voce interventions. I understood him to ask me from a sedentary position whether I wanted him to add anything. Because of our concern about the 16 to 19-year-olds, I should like the Under-Secretary of State to say why this form of words is used. Is it an attempt to safeguard the position in the future for the 16 to 19 category, or is it an attempt to exclude the 16 to 19 category from the Bill? It is capable of either interpretation and the hon. Gentleman should put on record the correct interpretation.
§ Dr. BoysonI am grateful for that inquiry from the hon. Member for Derby, North (Mr. Whitehead), because it enables me to clear up the position. The word "pupils" is intended to bring in the 16 to 19-year-olds. They would not be brought in otherwise. They would be under section 8(2) of the 1944 Act. I can give the hon. Gentleman an assurance that we are here doing something with which he as well as my hon. Friends will agree.
§ Mr. WhiteheadIn that case, we welcome the amendments and simply urge upon the Government the necessity for haste in the review promised in Committee of provision for the 16 to 19-year-olds—a review that, in the parlous condition of that age group in the country at the moment, we are awaiting with some urgency.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. Andrew F. BennettI beg to move amendment No. 9, in page 3, line 18, after 'governor', insert
'provided that the governor so designated has practical experience of special education or of children with special educational needs'.The amendment was tabled in the names of Members on the Liberal Bench, and in adding my name I was confident that I was doing the right thing. What was intended by the clause was that if the duty of being the responsible person was being delegated, not to the head teacher not to the chairman of the governors, but to another governor, that other governor should have some special qualifications, and I still believe that.The amendment makes it clear that if the duty is delegated to another governor, that govenor must have the special qualifications listed in the amendment. Having read it through, I am not certain whether the qualification applies, not just to the other governor, but to the chairman of the governors. It is saying that in that governing body there must be someone with that special qualification. If that is what the wording means, I have some reservations about it.
I hope that the Minister will make it clear that it is his intention to ensure that if the duty is delegated beyond the head teacher and the chairman of the governors it is delegated to someone with special knowledge or special responsibility, and that he will do his best to ensure that on governing bodies there are people with experience and understanding of the problems of children who need special education.
§ Mr. BeithI am indebted to the hon. Member for Stockport, North (Mr. Bennett). This is not the first time that we are supporting the same amendment, but it is the first time that he has moved an amendment for me. I apologise to the House for the fact that a related matter kept me from the Chamber. We tabled the amendment to express in the form of a narrow point a wider objective. On the governing bodies of schools providing for handicapped children there is a clear need for a governor with experience and knowledge of dealing with handicapped children.
The effect of the amendment is merely to provide that in those cases in which a governor is the responsible person, that governor should have experience of special education. That is much more limited than the wider purpose that I am talking about. In practice, in the majority of schools that responsibility will be exercised by the head teacher, as the clause allows, and not by a governor. It would be rare for a governor to have that responsibility.
I hope that the Under-Secretary of State will bear in mind the purpose behind the amendment and the importance that it will attach to at least one member of the school governing body having practical experience of dealing with handicapped children.
We have all been involved in trying to reform the system of school governing to ensure that there are governors who have practical involvement as parents or as teachers and who are rooted in the problems with which they are dealing. That is even more true of special education. In many special schools it has been possible to gather together governors with a real interest in and concern for special education.
I served as a governor of a special school for a number of years. I was impressed by the commitment of some other governors and by the experience that they built up, particularly those who came to school government through the voluntary societies and organisations to which we referred earlier. That experience will not be available on the governing body of an ordinary school into which a small number of handicapped children go. That experience will be needed.
I very much hope that ways will be sought to ensure that any such school has a governor with that experience. Should he be the one to whom those responsibilities are delegated, it will be even more necessary for him to have that experience.
§ Dr. BoysonI am sorry that the hon. Member for Stockport, North (Mr. Bennett) has been misled by the Liberals, though I am sure that the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) did not intend to do so. In these days of dangerous party alliances, one has to be careful.
The interpretation by the hon. Member for Stockport, North of the clause is correct. We have had various arguments about interpretation, but I agree with the one that he gave. I take on board the point made by the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed. This is a probing amendment, which says that where there can be a variety of governors who represent different interests and different specialties, that can be of advantage to the school.
I have always found the clause to be rather odd. It is an odd headmaster who delegates one of his governing body to tell the teaching staff that they have someone in the school with special educational needs, unless he has 457 lost his voice or cannot walk around with a blackboard and a piece of chalk. I should like to see a school that operates such a system.
§ Mr. Andrew F. BennettThere are teacher representatives on the new governing bodies. Therefore, it would be possible for the teacher who has a special responsibility for a remedial class, or for special education in the school, to be a member of the governing body.
§ Dr. BoysonThe hon. Member, with a blinding flash of inspiration, has shown why the clause was included.
In the Warnock committee there was talk of a responsible person who had information about special educational needs, or did not have that information. It was said that he should be responsible in a general school if there was a unit for special educational needs. In this case we are referring to ordinary schools. I accept what the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed said. I must not digress, but I shall return to the point.
The idea is that on governing bodies of schools in which there are many children with special educational needs—after all, there are 35,000 schools—wherever possible there should be people who know about the special needs of those children.
§ Mr. Andrew F. BennettI beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.