HC Deb 23 July 1980 vol 989 cc475-7
5. Mr. Dormand

asked the Minister of Transport if he will make a statement on the timing of the reorganisation of the road construction units.

Mr. Kenneth Clarke

We hope to be in a position to put firm proposals to the main organisations and individual county councils during September.

Mr. Dormand

Does the Minister accept that there is a four-year agreement between his Department and Durham county council for the rundown of the Durham unit? That agreement should be honoured. The very least that should be done is that the Durham sub-unit should be allowed to complete its outstanding projects. Is it not a fact that the work must be done anyway, and that means employing consultants whose costs are at least 15 per cent. greater than those of the sub-unit? In view of the highly efficient and dedicated work that has been done by the sub-unit is not this another doctrinaire blow wielded by the Government?

Mr. Clarke

First, we have agreements with the participating county councils and we hope to reach agreement with them in September about the rate at which the sub-units work is changed. We realise that that must not be done precipitately. On the other hand, we do not wish to extend the present uncertainties which have had such a damaging and demoralising effect upon staff. Comparison of costs is a matter which we shall consider carefully but they are difficult to calculate. There are a number of other considerations to be borne in mind when deciding how best to manage the road programme in the most efficient way during the next few years.

Mr. Dudley Smith

Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that his Department's decision is an excellent one and will be welcomed by the majority of people? On the other hand, is he aware that there is anxiety felt by many of those affected, some of whom have spent many years in those units? In those circumstances, will my hon. and learned Friend give careful consideration to the many representations that have been made on their behalf?

Mr. Clarke

I accept what my hon. Friend says. We are, however, not reducing the amount of work to be done on the road programme. We are simply reorganising the way in which it is done. We are particularly concerned at present about making the best possible arrangements for staff, not only in the interests of good industrial relations and of being a good employer, but also because it is in everybody's interests that we retain their acquired skills on particular schemes, and that we achieve as smooth a transition as possible from sub-units to consultants.

Mr. Robert C. Brown

Will the Minister give an assurance that his doctrinaire approach will not delay the building of the Newcastle upon Tyne western bypass which should, if anything, be brought forward?

Mr. Clarke

Our approach is not doctrinaire. As I have tried to indicate, we are consulting carefully and we expect to achieve a smooth transition and a more sensible way of running a reduced road programme. There is no way in which the changeover from sub-units to consultants need delay any road scheme.

Mr. Neale

Is the Minister aware that in Cornwall there are problems in that there is an absence of design engineers and the local county council has been carrying out participative work with the road construction unit on a number of schemes? May I ask my hon. and learned Friend to look carefully at that continuing participation?

Mr. Clarke

We have asked county councils to put special cases to us, where they believe they exist, for work to be transferred to them. Obviously, we also realise: that county councils are hoping to reduce staffing levels. There is no reason to transfer to another section of the public sector work which can probably be done more efficiently in the private sector by consultants.

Mr. Booth

Does the Minister agree that there are considerable problems in transferring existing road schemes from the road construction units to private consultants? What delays in the completion of these schemes does the Minister foresee arising from the transfer? Can he still give a categoric assurance that there will be no slippage in current road programmes? How will the Minister finance the additional 15 per cent. cost in transferring the work to private consultants? That cost was indicated by the NEDO report.

Mr. Clarke

The NEDO report did not produce an absolute figure of 15 per cent. It is extremely difficult to make direct cost comparisons. The advantage to be achieved by going over to private consultants is greater flexibility in the use of manpower on particular schemes in particular parts of the country, as well as giving a valuable home base for the export earnings which our consulting civil engineers can earn. There is no reason why the process of change should delay any scheme.