HC Deb 15 July 1975 vol 895 cc1259-60
19. Mr. Hooley

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps he is taking to achieve more economical deployment of skilled teaching manpower in the polytechnics.

Mr. Mulley

The initial employment of staff is essentially a matter for the governing body of a college and its grant-aiding authority; and the deployment of staff in post a matter for the institution itself. But it is essential that authorities and polytechnics economise in the use of resources, and I shall continue to promote this objective in every way I can.

Mr. Hooley

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that it is a rather extravagant use of highly-skilled and extremely expensive manpower to tolerate steps in the ratios 1:5 and 1:6, because even the universities are prepared to put up with a ratio of 1:8? Will he look into this problem with a view to making the situation more satisfactory?

Mr. Mulley

I understand my hon. Friend's concern. Some of the difficulties stem from the terms and conditions for staff that were negotiated between the local authority associations and the unions concerned, a matter in which I have no status to intervene. I shall endeavour to find out whether there are any steps we can usefully take in the direction that my hon. Friend has indicated.

Dr. Hampson

In the same way as the Secretary of State's predecessor acknowledged that the cost per unit in a polytechnic was no longer as cheap as it was at a university, as was once thought by the Department, will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the strategy that the Department is pursuing? There is great concern that there is no overall plan against which, for example, cuts can be properly formulated. What is the Department's thinking about post-education? Will the Minister set up a Royal Commission to inquire into the matter?

Mr. Mulley

I do not believe that the appointment of a Royal Commission would be the best way of considering all the matters that we are likely to encounter. In relation to the detailed administration of polytechnics, we simply cannot have on the one hand academic independence and on the other freedom of discretion of local authorities if I am expected to intervene even in detailed matters, for example the deployment of staff. Conservative Members must make up their minds whether they want local authorities to have freedom of discretion or not.

Mr. Edwin Wainwright

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that we are short of highly skilled people in industry? If the ratio of students to lecturers is too low in our polytechnics, will he make certain that more places are made availble to students so that eventually we get more scientists and technologists?

Mr. Mulley

I understand my hon. Friend's desire that the polytechnics and technical institutions should train more scientists and technicians. As far as we can, we shall encourage those institutions to do so. At present I am not aware of any great under-utilisation of their facilities.