HC Deb 03 July 1974 vol 876 cc395-400
The Minister of State, Civil Service Department (Mr. Robert Sheldon)

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement on the supply of parliamentary papers.

Members are aware that since 20th June there has been difficulty regarding the supply of parliamentary papers. This has resulted from industrial action involving composing staff at the St. Stephen's Parliamentary Press.

Further industrial action was introduced this morning in seven of HMSO's eight printing works by members of the National Graphical Association. Although no formal notice of any action has been received by HMSO from the association at national level, it is understood to be in support of the union's claim for improved pay and conditions which is currently under review.

Among the work affected is the supply of Government papers to Parliament. Copies of the documents essential to the business of the House will continue to be made available, in limited quantities, in one form or another.

Every effort is being made to resolve the dispute, which is, of course, taking place against the background of recent difficulties in the newspaper and general printing industry, particularly in London.

Mr. Robert Carr

I am grateful to the Minister for that statement. It is a serious situation for Parliament if we are to carry out our function properly. Will he be a little more specific about the action which the Government are taking to try to resolve the situation? In view of the serious effect on the work of Parliament, will he report to the House again tomorrow about the latest developments?

May I ask the hon. Gentleman to consult the Leader of the House about arrangements for the future business of the House, bearing in mind that it is impossible—I use the word after thought—to conduct the Report stages of important Bills like the Finance Bill and the Trade Union and Labour Relations Bill unless adequate supplies of the OFFICIAL REPORT of the Committee's proceedings are available not only to hon. Members but also to those outside the House who are most closely affected by the legislation. Until that has been done it really is not possible to know what amendments one needs to table for the Report stage. Will the hon. Gentleman please consult the Leader of the House and ask him to take this into account in planning future parliamentary business?

Mr. Sheldon

In reply to the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's question, negotiations are taking place with the unions concerned and I can make no further comment on that aspect at the present time, but if there is any substantial change I shall of course seriously consider coming to the House with a further statement.

Concerning transcripts of reports of Committee stages which are required for the tabling of amendments on Report, the right hon. Gentleman will know that the Stationery Office has done its utmost to provide transcripts day by day, though of a kind that cause very serious inconvenience to Officers of this House and others concerned, and I would like to pay particular tribute to the Stationery Office. I agree that this has been done on a scale rather more limited than might be thought desirable for the tabling of amendments, to the later stages of the Finance Bill in particular. I am at present in consultation, exploring methods by which transcripts may be made available to certain interested parties on a much wider scale than has been done up to now.

Mr. Carr

I would like to add my tribute to that of the hon. Gentleman to the really remarkable effort that has been made to get minimal papers required by hon. Members for their work in Committee stages. We appreciate this. Without that remarkable effort, we would have been brought to a standstill. But I really must press the hon. Gentleman on the other point. It really is not possible to do our proper democratic functions on Report unless adequate supplies of easily-readable reports of the Committee proceedings are available, not only in this House but outside. Quite apart from anything else, these transcripts simply are not in a fit state or of appropriate bulk to send to people outside, to get their replies in time for the tabling of amendments.

Mr. Sheldon

I can give the right hon. Gentleman and the House the assurance that wherever possible amended transcripts in proper form will be made available to certain interested parties. The right hon. Gentleman must understand that we have had to make special arrangements whereby in one form or another the vast amount of printing that is produced for this House at a time when the House is under greatest pressure, such as now towards the end of a Session, has been produced. Nobody can argue that this can be done in precisely the same manner as heretofore.

This has happened before. Surely, the right hon. Gentleman was in this House when all kinds of documents were not available to the House. This has happened before on a scale much greater than is happening now. I must insist on this. All we are saying is that we are making arrangements to ensure that certain copies of reports of what took place in the Committee stage of the Finance Bill will be made available to those outside the House who wish to have them. We are at present exploring how this can best be done.

Mr. Pardoe

Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House the average pay of those involved in this strike and whether it is more or less than the average pay of Members of Parliament? Will he also bear in mind what has been said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Carr) about the sheer impossibility—I put it that high—of having the Report stage of the Finance Bill without these papers in time for discussions with interested bodies outside the House? Major changes and concessions were made in that Bill as late as 3 o'clock this morning, but I am given to understand today that the papers will not be with us for another two days. It is impossible to hold the consultations we need. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that we shall have seriously to consider the possibility of bringing forward the Summer Recess, delaying the passage of the Finance Bill until after the recess and coming back in September to deal with it? [Interruption.] The Patronage Secretary will have to get used to the position I have been in in holding the balance of power in the Finance Bill Committee. [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. Perhaps the House could calm down a little. We have quite a lot to do today.

Mr. Pardoe

Will the hon. Gentleman therefore take account of the sheer difficulties and the impossibility of considering the Bill in the way he proposes, and take very seriously my point about delaying it until the autumn?

Mr. Sheldon

The House will be aware of the threats of the hon. Gentleman. It seems that the vote he possesses in Committee or has possessed up to now, has gone to his head rather excessively. In reply to his question as to the earnings of the people concerned, the average earnings of the staff at all HMSO presses, including overtime, amount to £48.50 per week. At St. Stephen's the amount is considerably higher, the average there being about £63 per week. No doubt the hon. Gentleman will take note of that. Concerning the need to obtain papers, these will be available in the Vote Office, and the hon. Gentleman and others should not be inconvenienced by this, other than perhaps by an extra day, although we are trying to improve on even that.

Mrs. Winifred Ewing

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the difficulties he has outlined are the reason why I and other members of my group did not receive notice of the Scottish Grand Committee and the Standing Committee on which I served this morning, and will he give priority to this? There is not a lot of printing involved in the issue of notices. If he can undertake to do so, will he ensure that our particular usual channel is one to which notices will he sent?

Mr. Sheldon

I have no information on that point. There are all kinds of reasons why the notice may not have been sent, but I will take the matter up with my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House.

Mr. Torney

In view of the fact that the temperature in the field of industrial relations is now much better as we have got rid of confrontation, would my hon. Friend take this matter up with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment to see whether he would be prepared to intervene in this dispute which is causing so much inconvenience to the House?

Mr. Sheldon

I must repeat that this dispute must be seen against the background of the difficulties of the printing industry, particularly in the London area, and it must be considered against that background. My hon. Friend's suggestion is obviously helpful and I will look into it.

Mr. Cormack

Will the hon. Gentleman accept that many of us feel that he has been rather complacent this afternoon? Although we appreciate that this kind of situation has arisen before, when he talks of transcripts and one gets a document the size of the one in my hand it really is not good enough. Will he now initiate discussions with the Leader of the House and others to see whether some alternative arrangements for printing essential parliamentary papers can be considered?

Mr. Sheldon

We are dealing with the Parliamentary Press employing 600 people who are concerned in the production of parliamentary papers for this House, and no other arrangements of any kind are going to match those that have obtained up to now. Concerning similar difficulties in the past, I must remind the hon. Gentleman that in the last Session of Parliament, within a two-year period, there were delays in the normal delivery time for some papers on 120 occasions, 26 of these being due to industrial action. This is a problem that is not new either to the House or to the printing industry, particularly the printing industry in the London area.