HC Deb 17 October 1972 vol 843 cc29-35
Rev. Ian Paisley (by Private Notice)

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the civil disturbances in Northern Ireland last night and the deaths which resulted therefrom.

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. William Whitelaw)

Last night there were serious disorders in some predominantly Protestant areas of East and West Belfast.

Between 8.30 and 9.0 p.m. rioting broke out in East Belfast. About the same time the Army controls on three of the bridges across the River Lagan checked an attempt by groups of Protestant youths, some armed with cudgels, to move across into East Belfast. Thereafter trouble in East Belfast escalated, with the hi-jacking of a bus and the building of barricades.

At 9.50 p.m. it was learned from an anonymous telephone call to Tennant Street Police Station in West Belfast that two RUC Reserve constables had been taken hostage in that area. The Army vehicle that went to rescue them was greeted by stones, bottles and a blast bomb which was thrown towards it. Thereafter there were serious disorders in the Shankill Road area of West Belfast as well as in East Belfast.

Between 10.15 and 10.30 p.m. two civilians were killed in incidents involving Army vehicles. In the course of the night over 130 rounds were fired at the security forces. They fired 72 rounds in return. Eleven soldiers were admitted to hospital, four of them with gunshot wounds. Twenty-two more soldiers were slightly injured. Thirty-two people were arrested.

Rev. Ian Paisley

Does the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland agree that by far the vast majority of Protestants in Northern Ireland are grateful to the British Army for all that they have done to root out terrorism in Ulster and that the vast majority of Protestants in Northern Ireland would deplore any suggestion of a confrontation between the Protestant community and the forces of the Crown?

Is the Secretary of State aware of the deep feelings that have been stirred among the Protestant community in Northern Ireland at his announcement of the postponement of the promised referendum?

Is not the Secretary of State concerned that certain criticisms that have been made of certain members of the Army have been substantiated at subsequent court hearings? Will he give a promise to the House that he will investigate personally the death of Mr. John Clark last night? Is he aware that Mr. Clark is a polio victim, that he was in Hornby Street on the orders of the director of a firm of which he is manager to recover a lorry, that when the riot broke out Mr. Clark was unable to run and he fell because of his incapacity and on rising to his feet and standing up to the wall he was pinned to the wall and his head was crushed to pulp and part of his brain was gathered off the wall after this tragic accident? Will the Secretary of State assure the House that such matters will be given urgent consideration as they contribute to the deplorable acts that happened last night in the city of Belfast?

Mr. Whitelaw

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, in view of some of the expressions that have been made and some of the talk about confrontations with the security forces of the kind that have been made recently, for his remarks that Protestants in general, and I certainly agree with him, would be wholly against any such confrontation.

I am also grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he said about British troops, who are operating under extremely difficult circumstances. I am equally grateful to the hon. Gentleman for saying that in view of some of the extreme statements that have also been made on that subject.

I am very well aware of the feelings about a plebiscite or a referendum on the border issue. I do not think that anyone in the House, whatever may be the arguments about particular dates for a local election or a plebiscite on the border issue, will feel that these justify violence and shooting at British troops. I personally would have preferred to have had this plebiscite or referendum before the local elections. I had to face a very difficult dilemma. I have made perfectly clear what that was. I hope that will be realised.

Equally, I must also say to the House that all polls and elections are bound to depend on the security situation, and those who want them—whatever sort they want—must appreciate that, too.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

Is the Secretary of State aware that the riots last evening can only be regarded as a direct challenge to the Government of the United Kingdom? We on this side of the House make it quite clear that we support the security forces in their difficult task against law breakers from whichever community they come. We ask the world to note the casualties of the security forces last evening and the number of shots that were fired at them.

If the UDA and others are really working for UDI—a break with the United Kingdom—is not this a serious new complexion of the Northern Ireland problem? Has the Secretary of State any evidence of the UDA and the IRA talking together about UDI? Does not the Secretary of State agree that if the UDA can stop local elections in its area the IRA could stop a referendum in its?

Finally, to make clear the future of Northern Ireland, will the Secretary of State in advance of the Green Paper give a general but clear statement of the sort of timetable envisaged by the Government leading to a new constitution and elections when we will get the views of all the people of Northern Ireland on what we hope at the moment are the views of a small number of people who act in the way that they do?

Mr. Whitelaw

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said in support of action taken by the security forces, both the Army and the police, against law breakers from wherever they come. I know that this is widely supported throughout the whole community of Northern Ireland in all sections, and that must be the case.

I cannot emphasise too often how determined we are that the security forces shall be impartial, not only between men of violence, on the one hand, and law abiding citizens, on the other hand, because they must be wholly against men of violence from wherever they come, but equally wholly impartial as between law abiding citizens from wherever they come in the community. That is the position of the security forces in a very difficult task. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said in this respect.

I have no evidence of any talks between the UDA and the IRA. I do not suppose that they would tell me if they were doing that, but I have no evidence of it. Equally, those who seek to run on a collision course—if there are those who seek to run on a collision course—with the United Kingdom Parliament and Government must realise fully the implications of what they are doing, but I believe that they are very few in number indeed and will be largely dissociated with.

As for future policies, these will certainly be fully set out. At this stage I can only say firmly that the legislation about the referendum or plebiscite to which the hon. Gentleman referred will be introduced as soon as possible in the new Session of Parliament and the referendum will be held as soon as possible thereafter. One always must remember, as the hon. Gentleman himself has said, that polls of all kinds are bound to be considered in the context of the security situation at the time.

Mr. McMaster

While in no way condoning the violence in my constituency last night, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he realises the great frustrations felt by the majority of law-abiding citizens in Northern Ireland who have been subjected to a most vicious and sustained campaign of violence mounted by the Official and the Provisional IRA, whose bombs and bullets have killed many hundreds of civilians, police and soldiers over the last four years and have caused millions of pounds worth of damage to industry? Will my right hon. Friend lead an all-out campaign—propaganda and military—against those republican organisations which are the root cause of the hideous and escalating campaign of violence we are experiencing in Ulster?

Mr. Whitelaw

I certainly understand what my hon. Friend says about frustrations over the last four years. What we are now entitled to say is that a very sustained campaign indeed is being conducted against the Provisional IRA. The figures I have constantly given are evidence of that.

My hon. Friend talks about escalating violence at the present time. I must point out that but for the Protestant actions we had last night, and have had recently, the level of violence would have been very much lower than for some time.

Mr. Douglas

I speak as one who has just returned from Northern Ireland, where I visited the security forces. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the general body of the people there regard the security forces as their salvation, and that if the security forces were removed—and if there were any thought of their being removed—this would mean a situation of civil war in Northern Ireland? Therefore, the situation is very serious indeed. I think that some of us on this side of the House would appreciate it if the right hon. Gentleman would reassess his priorities, bearing in mind the security situation, and perhaps move with a bit more acceleration towards holding a referendum to get the constitutional issue clear and out of the way in order that the normal political process can take place.

Mr. Whitelaw

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said about the importance of the security forces in the present situation. I hope that all those, whoever they are, who consider firing a shot at them or stoning them will realise what he has said and how important is the task they are performing on behalf of this House. The hon. Gentleman suggested speeding the referendum. No one is keener than I to do that. I am in the hands of the House on that matter. I want to see it done as soon as possible.

Mr. Hugh Fraser

I am sure that the whole House is appalled by what is happening and by the losses suffered by the security forces, among others. Could my right hon. Friend comment on a fact which is apparent to us from the television screens, even though the impression may be wrong, that our troops do not seem to be wearing steel helmets in sufficient quantities? It is important that men should wear steel helmets in active conditions. I know that soldiers do not like wearing them, but it is important that they should, and the police should have them as well.

Mr. Whitelaw

I will discuss the matter with the GOC and the Chief Constable. I note what my right hon. Friend has said.

Mr. Stallard

Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that we are all very concerned about the rapid deterioration in the situation, particularly over the past few weeks? I, too, recently returned from Northern Ireland. Will he accept also that perhaps we all here should be concerned at the lack of confidence in both communities in the present administration? This is something which should worry us considerably.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I consider his biggest failure to date was his failure to bring to the conference table those minority groups which have to be consulted before any real progress on the political side can be made? That failure is due, in my opinion, to his failure to grasp the nettle of internment. He has had three opportunities since Lenadoon to grasp the nettle. Had he done so, these people would have got round the table to discuss the political issues which will have to be discussed. Will he take this opportunity to reassess the situation, as suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Douglas)? Will he consider, first, the question of internment, and, secondly, the deployment of troops in those stress areas, perhaps looking at the possibility of withdrawing troops from these areas in order to improve relations between the two communities and between him and the communities?

Mr. Whitelaw

I note what the hon Gentleman has said. He has raised wide issues about internment and the question of timing. One can only say that there are many arguments both ways about this.

On the complicated question of Northern Ireland, not just over the last 10 or 20 years but over the last 100 years, it would be a brave man who did not admit that he had made some mistakes about timing at some time. The hon. Gentleman referred to confidence in the various communities. I believe that this House and, I hope, the whole of Northern Ireland and everyone else, will face one simple fact. Confidence is indeed lacking in Northern Ireland. It may also be said, looking back over history, that those who have sought to provide administrations which are absolutely fair to all communities on a totally impartial basis have always suffered from some degree of lack of confidence because of the pressures put upon them from both sides.