HC Deb 07 May 1970 vol 801 cc598-601
Mr. Speaker

Miss Devlin. To raise a point of order.

Miss Devlin

I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely, the evidence of attempts to channel large quantities of arms into Northern Ireland, the involvement of Ministers of a friendly Government, and the effect of these matters on Northern Ireland ". I call for a full emergency debate on this series of matters which relate to the well-being of an area for which this Parliament has jurisdiction. I refer to the case of senior members of the Government of the Irish Republic who have supplied, and arranged to supply, and arranged for, supplies of military equipment to be brought into Northern Ireland.

I know that some people will say that the activities of the Government of Southern Ireland, or their Ministers, are of no significance in the House. This is a wholly ridiculous claim. The circumstances surrounding the upheaval in the area of Ireland governed by the Free State Government demonstrate the existence of an international crisis of the utmost gravity. Whatever kind of fiction we may try to maintain about the Irish question, whatever kind of special explanation we care to put upon it, we must face the fact that in any case where senior members of a Government claiming to be friendly to the Government of this country are involved, in arming the people over whom this Parliament has jurisdiction, against the interests of this Government, we have a very serious crisis.

If we can try to take ourselves out from the Irish question, no one in this House would deny that if General Franco, or one of his right-hand men, was involved in the shipping of arms to Gibraltar for use against the British it would be a matter for immediate consultation and discussion in the House.

So far as the affairs of the Republic of Ireland are concerned, the situation is rendered much more serious, because, although this Parliament extends its jurisdiction to Northern Ireland, and as such we are citizens of the United Kingdom, the Constitution of the Government of the Republic also lays claim to that territory. Therefore, while not going into the merits or otherwise of the actions of the Ministers concerned, it can be said that they were only putting into practice what they have held to be true in theory.

This international quarrel has existed since the beginning of the foundation of the Northern Ireland State. The present crisis simply shows it in its more acute present-day form. The need for urgent debate is underlined by the almost spontaneous reaction in Lisbellaw, in Northern Ireland, last night. The townspeople almost spontaneously came together—

Mr. McMaster

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

Order. There can be no point of order. We are on a point of order now.

Miss Devlin

The townspeople of Lisbellaw, on hearing of this incident, held a meeting at which they affirmed their antipathy towards the Catholic minority and their friends—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Lady must not debate now the points that she will make, and make the speech that she will want to make, if she wins her debate.

Miss Devlin

I apologise, Mr. Speaker. I was trying to show the urgent necessity for a debate because of the rising fears of people, particularly of the Protestant people, in Northern Ireland.

No matter what one says about the merits of the case of the Fianna Fail Ministers, we come to the point where we can clearly show that we must have a serious discussion on what will happen in Northern Ireland. I am grateful for the statement of the Home Secretary today, when he finally confessed his ignorance of Irish affairs. There are two solutions to the problem—either scrap the convention and discuss important matters in this House—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Lady is asking for a debate.

Miss Devlin

If we are to educate the members of this Government, it is necessary to have an immediate emergency debate, otherwise we must accept that they do not wish to be educated and they renounce their sovereignty over that area.

Because it is a matter of public importance and an international matter affecting this Government and the Government of the Republic and the people of Northern Ireland, and because it is an urgent matter, given the crisis in Northern Ireland at the moment, I respectfully beg to ask leave that this House do now adjourn.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Lady the Member for Mid-Ulster (Miss Devlin) was courteous enough to inform me this morning that she might seek to make an application this afternoon under Standing Order No. 9.

The hon. Lady asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that she thinks should have urgent consideration, namely, the evidence of attempts to channel large quantities of arms into Northern Ireland, the involvement of Ministers of a friendly Government, and the effect of these matters on the situation in Northern Ireland. As the House knows, under Standing Order No. 9 I am directed to take account of the several factors set out in the Order, but to give no reason for my decision.

I have listened carefully to all that has happened in the House on this matter this afternoon, and to the submissions and representations made to me by the hon. Lady, but I have to rule that her submission does not fall within the provisions of Standing Order No. 9, and, therefore, I cannot submit her application to the House.

Mr. Michael Foot

On a point of order. I fully realise, Mr. Speaker, that it is not possible in any way to question your Ruling, and I do not seek to do so. But can you tell the House whether it will be possible for the matter to be raised again under the Standing Order on Monday if there are fresh developments connected with it over the weekend? Could you say whether today's application rules out the possibility of an application on Monday on the same subject?

Mr. Speaker

I know that the hon. Gentleman never challenges the Ruling of the Chair. I never rule on hypothetical questions, but the application under the Standing Order on one day, and its being turned down, does not prevent the application for a Standing Order No. 9 debate on another day.