HC Deb 09 March 1970 vol 797 cc895-6
13. Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will now make a statement as to his intentions in respect of the contributions liability of occupational pensioners who will be excluded from unemployment benefit under his proposed regulations.

Mr. Ennals

Those aged 60 or over with pensions of £25 weekly who do not satisfy the proposed test of further work will be in the same position as non-employed persons. Other occupational pensioners would be able to qualify for credits for unemployment in the same way as at present.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Does not being in the same position as non-employed persons mean that they have to contribute as such? Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that his right hon. Friend undertook a few weeks ago to reconsider whether it was right not only to deprive these people of the unemployment benefit which is at present their right, but to add, as it were, by way of a second barrel a liability to pay heavily increased contributions?

Mr. Ennals

It would certainly be quite wrong to treat people in the category that we are talking about—and they are those with substantial occupational pensions—in a preferred way to either the non-employed or others who also have the obligation to make contributions.

Mr. McNamara

Can my hon. Friend explain the distinction between people who are sponging on unemployment benefit who were mentioned earlier and these people who are sponging on unemployment benefit and who, if they are gainfully employed until the age of 65 or satisfy the conditions laid down by my hon. Friend, will qualify for proper substantial unemployment benefit?

Mr. Ennals

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The National Insurance Advisory Committee, who gave very careful consideration to this matter—and they are an independent body—reached the conclusion that there was a considerable degree of misuse—not abuse—of public funds in that benefits were being paid to a substantial number of people with substantial occupational pensions who clearly were not in the field of employment.

Lord Balniel

While agreeing that change is necessary, may I ask whether the Government appreciate that they are for the first time applying the principle of a means test to unemployment benefit and that it is a means test which is applied only to those holding occupational pensions? May we be assured that there will be a full debate on this subject—not simply a short debate on a Prayer?

Mr. Ennals

I am glad to hear that the Opposition recognise that change is necessary. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there will be a substantial debate.