HC Deb 08 July 1969 vol 786 cc1293-318

Again considered in Committee.

Question again proposed, That the Amendment be made.

Sir D. Glover

I hope that I shall be permitted to apologise to the Committee. During the Division I had a good deal of "stick" from my colleagues because, Mr. Irving, when I referred to you by your wrong title, I had not realised that you had received a far greater honour than that by which I referred to you. I would like to take this opportunity of saying, "Congratulations", on a very well-deserved honour.

The Chairman

Order. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but I hope that he will now come to the Amendment.

Sir D. Glover

You took the words out of my mouth, Mr. Irving. At exactly that moment I ceased my tributes—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up."] I am addressing the Chair.

I come to the meat of the Amendments. I said briefly before the Division that I thought that it was very dangerous for any political organisation to give the power of boundary and constituency changes almost—[Interruption.] Order, order. May I have the attention of the Home Secretary? It is very dangerous for any political party to allow the reorganisation of constituencies—[Interruption.] If the Chief Whip does that again, Mr. Irving, I shall have to ask for your protection.

10.15 p.m.

The Chairman

Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will speak to the Amendments now.

Sir D. Glover

With respect, given the opportunity, I shall be delighted to—[Interruption.] The Committee has just witnessed a disgraceful performance. We are engaged on a debate which affects the powers of the Home Secretary to a great degree. The Bill proposes to give him powers which even he is probably doubtful about taking. In a free vote, hon. Members would probably vote against them, yet the Home Secretary has such contempt for the Committee that he goes out in the middle of the debate. That shows how this sort of power can warp the integrity of individuals. Until the Home Secretary introduced the Bill, he was a man for whom I had the highest respect. The fact that he has introduced the Bill has lowered that respect enormously.

Why has the right hon. Gentleman resisted these Amendments? Does he think that it is right that the Home Secretary of the day—not the Cabinet—should have the power to decide whether or not a constituency should be dealt with? That supreme power will lie in his hands. Very rightly, from the point of view of the House of Commons, we suggest by these Amendments not that the Home Secretary should be compelled to make any changes of constituency boundaries or electorates, but that the Commission should remain in being and continue to make representations to the Home Secretary which he can ignore if he wishes. With the prodding that the Commission would give him, he would have an extra force behind him to keep the constituencies in some sort of order.

The Redcliffe-Maud Report has been bandied about a great deal today. However, I do not think that the Committee has taken fully into account what that report will involve. I do not know what other hon. Members have found in their constituencies, but in mine and in others that I have visited the worry in local government circles is about what these changes will involve. I am not saying that the House may not eventually accept the Redcliffe-Maud proposals. It may not. But there is no justification for saying that these proposals are likely to become law.

The Prime Minister, in a very Prime Ministerish statement—which means that it was rather like a snake going across the grass—said that the Government accepted the principle of the Redcliffe-Maud Report. But, whatever may happen to the electoral fortunes of the political parties at this moment, no bookmaker would lay odds of more than 10 to 1 against the party opposite being in power two years from now. Therefore, when we ask: when will the Redcliffe-Maud proposals be implemented? We are not just dealing with the party opposite. We are dealing with the whole fulcrum and thinking of political life.

I do not know what view the Conservative Party will take about the Redcliffe-Maud Report. It may welcome half of it, reject half of it, alter it, take consultations, and produce a reform of local government which bears no relation to the proposals that have been produced.

The Chairman

Order. The hon. Gentleman must speak to the Amendment, which is concerned with consulting the Boundary Commission and, in particular, the chairman and deputy chairman.

Sir D. Glover

If I am allowed to develop my argument, it will be seen that I am speaking to the Amendment.

The premise on which the Home Secretary and the Government have based their case is not a firm one. We are not talking about four years before implementation and the Boundary Commission starting its work again and perhaps finishing the whole within seven years. We are now talking about no radical change of constituency boundaries as a result of the Bill, unless it is altered, for the next 15 years.

That means that the bulk of constituencies will not have been changed for 30 years. Therefore, it is only common prudence for Parliament to put into the Bill a Clause which will give the Commission some power and ensure that the Home Secretary of the day will have to take cognisance of the changes that will go on in the next 15 years. That is the whole basis of these Amendments.

Take the Prime Minister's seat—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman can take it where he likes! With the voting age being reduced to 18, the Prime Minister's constituency has an electorate of about 100,000. It is one of the fastest growing communities in the North-West of England. The Prime Minister's constituency has 13,000 voters between the ages of 18 and 21. No other constituency in the North-West has more than 10,000. Therefore, it is a young community which will grow rapidly. I forecast that, leaving these boundaries as they are today, long before the next changes of boundaries take place under the global reviews about which the Home Secretary talks in another 15 years, that constituency will be 120,000 to 125,000 strong.

Surely any sensible political machine would ensure that, in a Bill of this kind—I am not criticising the basic principles of the Bill, because I should be out of order—the Home Secretary of the day should be presented every year with what was happening in the over-large or over-small constituencies. I should think that it was a common duty of prudence that any Home Secretary, of whatever political party, would want once a year—I am a very moderate man and I should not mind if it was once in two years—a review from a neutral body—not his civil servants—which would say, "Mr. Home Secretary, we think that you ought to know that the Huyton, or the Wokingham, or the Haverhill constituency has now grown to 110,000. The constituency next door has an electorate of 85,000. Therefore, we think that you ought to produce a narrow order to deal with this immediate problem." Unless that is done we shall find our electoral system in the next 15 years completely and utterly out of control.

I do not understand why the Home Secretary and his colleagues are not in favour of accepting these Amendments.

Mr. James Dance (Bromsgrove)

Could my hon. Friend give my constituents a little advice? If the Government refuse to accept the Amendments, what will happen to a place like Redditch which takes a large amount of overspill from Birmingham? What are my constituents to do if we are faced with this obstinacy on the part of the Front Bench opposite?

Sir D. Glover

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He has highlighted what I was referring to. I presume that during the next 15 years that constituency will continue to grow, but under this Bill the Home Secretary will have no authority, no compulsion, and no direction from the House of Commons or from anybody else to take any action at all.

The right hon. Gentleman said that an over-all review was urgent. He then said, and contradicted his statement, that because of Redcliffe-Maud it would not be appropriate to carry it all out, and therefore it was not possible to make selective changes, and therefore we do nothing at all. That means that, with very few exceptions, constituency boundaries will be the same as they were 15 years ago, which takes us back to 1954. It means that in 1984a very appropriate date for a Government of the present sort—when the pigs have taken over control we shall have constituencies of 125,000 or 130,000, but a place like Ladywood will have an electorate of probably 5,000.

Sir Knox Cunningham (Antrim, South)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend—

The Chairman

Order. The hon. Member is no longer on the Amendments, which are concerned with consulting the Boundary Commission for Orders in Council, or the chairman and deputy chairman.

Sir Knox Cunningham

My hon. Friend has been talking about constituencies of the future. Is he aware that I represent 127,000 electors, the largest constituency in the United Kingdom, and that they are content with their representative?

Sir D. Glover

My hon. and learned Friend, who always makes pungent remarks when he interjects, is an admirable Member. He is able to look after 100,000 or more electors, but he must realise that the bulk of us do not have his qualities. I have heard hon. Members today saying that they find it a burden to look after 70,000 electors. My hon. Friend the Member for Brierley Hill (Mr. Montgomery) told us how much easier he found it to look after the 50,000 electors in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East than he did the 73,000 electors in Brierley Hill. I do not think that my hon. and learned Friend's interjection invalidates my argument.

Mr. Eric Lubbock (Orpington)

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Antrim, South (Sir Knox Cunningham), who represents so many constituencies—constituents—

Sir Knox Cunningham

The hon. Gentleman has had a very good dinner.

Mr. Lubbock

—is so preoccupied with his duties at Westminster that he cannot look after his constituents? They have had to come to me to get a telephone booth installed in Areema Drive, Dunmurry?

10.30 p.m.

Sir D. Glover

When the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock)—

The Chairman

Order. Both hon. Gentlemen are straying from the Amendment.

Sir D. Glover

I thought that the hon. Member was about to make a relevant argument. He always damages his own case. I thought that it was a long tradition that hon. Members did not interfere in the constituency affairs of other hon. Members.

Mr. Eldon Griffiths

I realise that my hon. Friend wants to press on with his argument, but would he dwell a little more on his interesting point about the Prime Minister's constituency? Does he think that any consultation with the Commission could possibly save that seat?

[Mr. ARTHUR PROBERT in the Chair.]

Sir D. Glover

The difficulty is that, although on a free vote of the House, 90 per cent. of the votes would be against the Prime Minister, anything might happen in politics. But if the boundary changes had been implemented, the Prime Minister's might have been a very marginal seat. Despite it's being detrimental to me and my constituents, I would have fought, had I spoken on Second Reading, for the full implementation of the Commission's recommendations—

Mr. Eric S. Heffer (Liverpool, Walton)

I bet the hon. Gentleman would.

Sir D. Glover

I would. Once they get over the heat and burden of this debate, hon. Members will accept that.

I would far rather these decisions were taken by a non-political body. It is a very slippery slope when these decisions begin to be made politically. When hon. Members opposite sneer, and their Front Bench takes these debates lightly, I wonder how long it will be before they bring in a Bill to prolong the life of this Parliament. They "fiddled" the local government elections, they "fiddled" Northampton, they are "fiddling" this Bill. Why should they not extend the life of this Parliament?

This is the biggest political scandal of the last 35 years. This is the worst gerrymandering Government which the country has seen this century, and I do not think that we have seen the worst yet. When we see their attitude towards these matters, can the people feel safe? Can they feel that these issues will be dealt with in a neutral, non-party way? Of course not, and the Bill is proof of that.

The Amendment modestly suggests the insertion of these words: Provided that nothing in this section shall prevent the submission of reports under section 2(3) of that Act (reports relating to particular constituencies). If the Whips were not on hon. Gentlemen opposite, they would all support that simple proposition.

The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Arthur Probert)

Order. I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that he has just quoted from an Amendment which was discussed and dealt with some time ago. I trust that he will address his remarks to the Amendment under discussion, namely, Amendment No. 3.

Sir D. Glover

I accept your reprimand, Mr. Probert, which was justified. I have made so many notes on my Notice Paper that I quoted from Amendment No. 2 in error. However, Amendment No. 3 is equally modest, for it would insist on things being done … after consulting the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the relevant Boundary Commission.

Mr. John Mendelson

rose—

Sir D. Glover

I will not give way. The hon. Gentleman, who gets full of fury when we are discussing economic matters, should take more interest in the constitutional issue which we are debating.

Mr. John Mendelson

rose—

Sir D. Glover

No. I am not in one of my more generous moods tonight. If the hon. Gentleman wants to take the matter seriously, instead of just sitting there laughing, he will no doubt have an opportunity to make his own speech when I have finished.

Is the Committee suggesting that the Home Secretary should not have any advice except of a biased political nature? [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Harrow, West—

Mr. John Page (Harrow, West)

I protest. When I tried to intervene last my hon. Friend had described the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Roebuck) as the hon. Member for Harrow. Now he has referred to that hon. Gentleman as the hon. Member for Harrow, West, the constituency which I represent. Although the constituency of Harrow, East will not disappear under the Bill, the present Socialist hon. Member who represents it certainly will.

Sir D. Glover

rose—

Mr. Roebuck

rose—

The Temporary Chairman

Order. The Chair is endeavouring to listen intently to what is being said. If the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) does not give way the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Roebuck) must resume his seat.

Sir D. Glover

rose—

Mr. Roebuck

rose—

Hon. Members

Give way.

The Temporary Chairman

Order. I appeal to the hon. Member for Harrow, East to resume his seat if the hon. Member for Ormskirk is not giving way.

Sir D. Glover

The hon. Member who has now resumed his seat, which he should never have left—

Mr. Roebuck

rose—

Sir D. Glover

—which he will lose at the next election—

Mr. Roebuck

rose—

Hon. Members

Sit down.

Sir D. Glover

If the hon. Member wishes to intervene to make a contribution to the debate, as we are in Committee, he can seek to catch your eye, Mr. Probert, to make a powerful speech destroying the argument of the hon. Member for Ormskirk.

Mr. John Mendelson

That would not be difficult.

Sir D. Glover

The hon. Member for Penistone says that it would not be difficult. All right, have a go.

Mr. Roebuck

Will the hon. Member give way?

Hon. Members

Sit down.

The Temporary Chairman

Order. May I appeal to hon. Members to address the Chair? I appeal once again to the hon. Member for Harrow, East, if the hon. Member for Ormskirk does not give way, to resume his seat.

Mr. Roebuck

On a point of order, Mr. Probert. Would it not assist the progress of the Committee if the hon. Member for Ormskirk is not to give way kindly to look—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member is so careless of the conventions of the House that he will not give way would it not be better if he did not make provocative remarks?

The Temporary Chairman

That is not a point of order.

Sir D. Glover

I shall treat the intervention of the hon. Member with the contempt it deserves.

I was trying, and finding it more and more difficult, because apparently the party opposite is not seized of the importance of this constitutional matter, to make a speech on an important constitutional matter. It is entirely wrong for this sort of power to be put—not in the hands of the Cabinet, for in the Cabinet there would be some safeguard because there would be disagreement—in the hands of the Home Secretary, one man. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he? "] This is a power which this House should not give to one individual without very great thought.

These Amendments are solely designed to provide a very modest change. They have very little power, but at least they ask the Home Secretary to see that the Commission remains in being and that he should have consultations with the chairman and deputy chairman. Then when he was attacked in the House he would not be able to plead ignorance. He would have to admit that he had been informed by the chairman of the Commissioners that a new situation had arisen. He would not be able to say that he had no cognisance of it and it was not his responsibility so he was not proposing to do anything for another 15 years.

All that the Amendments are designed to do is to produce very small safeguards for the constitution of the country. It ill behoves the party opposite to take the line it is taking and which shows what it is—unfit to govern.

10.45 p.m.

Mr. Roebuck

I shall disappoint hon. Members opposite because I shall make a cogent speech, and a short one. I understand that the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) is known among young Conservatives in his constituency as an old sweetie. After the speech we have heard from him tonight, it is small wonder that we on this side regard him as an old English humbug. He has addressed the Committee for a considerable time, mostly out of order, and he sought to make a most outrageous case to the effect—

Sir C. Taylor

rose—

Mr. Graham Page

On a point of order, Mr. Probert. Is it in order for an hon. Member to call another hon. Member a humbug?

Sir D. Glover

From the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Roebuck) I take it as a compliment.

Mr. Roebuck

The hon. Gentleman is always grateful for a compliment, from whatever source it comes.

Mr. Graham Page

On a point of order, Mr. Probert. I have heard no answer to the point of order which I raised.

Sir C. Taylor

On a point of order, Mr. Probert. Is it in order for the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Roebuck) to say that the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) was mostly out of order, as you, Mr. Probert, were in the Chair, and we all rely upon you to keep hon. Members in order?

The Temporary Chairman

During the time that I have been in the Chair it has been very difficult to hear what has been said. What I have heard from the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) has been in order. I hope that the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Roebuck) will confine himself to the Amendments.

Mr. Roebuck

Exactly, Mr. Probert; I have to set a good example to the Opposition.

I wish merely to defend the case which has been made by my right hon. Friends. To suggest that the very sensible and logical method which they have put forward for reorganising constituencies eventually is a measure of political gerrymandering is a most outrageous statement by the Opposition. The fact that they indulge in such allegations clearly demonstrates the bankruptcy of their case. I do not think that I should remain, as you suggest I should, Mr. Probert, within the bounds of order if I were to attempt to follow the speech of the hon. Member for Ormskirk.

I want to address myself, in conclusion, to the intervention of the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. John Page), who made some of his typical offensive remarks about my constituency. The appearances in the House of Commons of the hon. Member for Harrow, West are as rare as his appearances in his constituency.

Mr. Emery

On a point of order, Mr. Probert. Many of us who are very concerned about this constitutional issue are interested not in personalities but in constituencies. Is it in order for the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Roebuck) to continue in that vein, which has nothing to do with the Amendments?

Mr. Roebuck

Further to that point of order, Mr. Probert. I had resumed my seat. I have nothing more to say.

[Mr. SYDNEY IRVING in the Chair]

Mr. Sharples

It is, perhaps, a reflection upon the way in which the Government have conducted this debate that the only hon. Member whom they could persuade to speak in their support was the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Roebuck). We can judge the standard of the Government's case from the speech the hon. Gentleman has just made.

I would not wish to cut short the large number of my hon. and right hon. Friends who still wish to take part in this debate, but I thought it would be convenient for me to intervene at this stage.

It was unfortunate that the Home Secretary did not take part in this debate and has been here for only a short time while the debate has been taking place. He left the Chamber shortly after my right hon. Friend got up to move this bunch of Amendments. The Committee has been treated—and few hon. Members opposite were here to listen to it—to an unfortunate speech by the Under-Secretary. I say warmly that I have great respect for him, but in his speech on this group of Amendments he was certainly not up to the standard we have come to expect of him. He will particularly regret the remarks which he made about Scotland, in trying to relate the situation which exists in Scottish constituencies to that of the very small English constituencies such as Ladywood.

I am sure that the Secretary of State for Scotland will be able to put the hon. Gentleman right as to the entirely different situation which exists in Scotland, arising out of the Act of Union. I am sure that the Secretary of State fully appreciates the very different considerations which exists in the number of Scottish seats and other relevant circumstances, compared with the English constituencies.

The purpose of these Amendments is—

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. William Ross)

It has nothing to do with the Act of Union, because we departed a long time ago from the number of seats set down in the Act of Union.

Mr. Sharples

Yes, but the right hon. Gentleman knows that the situation in Scotland derives from the Act of Union and that the number of seats there is laid down firmly by Act of Parliament.

The purpose of the Amendments is to some extent to restore to the Boundary Commission the responsibility which lies on it in deciding matters of electoral reform. The Government, by this Bill, have removed virtually the whole of the Boundary Commission's powers. The Amendments compel the Government at least to consult the Boundary Commission before introducing electoral changes and changes in boundaries.

I should have thought that it was common ground on all sides of the Committee that, whatever hon. Members may think about timing of elections or anything of that kind, the business of the machinery and the running of the machinery of the elections which return us all to Parliament should have been taken outside the scope of the political machines.

I should have thought that would be common ground, no matter which Government happened to be in office. But frankly, as has been pointed out by several of my hon. Friends, and particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths), we on this side cannot trust this Government at present to act impartially in this matter. We have had far too much evidence of their lack of impartiality in their attempt to rig the wards in Northampton constituency and borough and in the postponement, for electoral advantage, of the local elections for the London boroughs. We had the Representation of the People Bill, in part of which at least the Government overrode the recommendations of Mr. Speaker's Conference and introduced measures designed to improve their own electoral situation.

The Amendments would compel the Home Secretary to consult the Boundary Commission before considering the possibility of laying Orders in Council. I see no reason why the Government should resist an obligation upon them to consult this impartial body. Second, they would compel the Government formally to consult the Boundary Commission once a year. If the Boundary Commissions are to continue in being or have any meaning whatever, it would be right for the Government to consult them at least once a year with regard to their continuing duty. Third, they would compel the Government to consult the Commission in particular about whether any reorganisation of local government has gone far enough to warrant a general review in the area covered by the Commission. Fourth, they transfer back—this is one of the most important effects—to the Boundary Commission the decision on whether a general review of boundaries should take place.

The Under-Secretary of State said that the Boundary Commission was not capable of making that decision. But it is the duty clearly laid upon the Boundary Commission by Act of Parliament. Section 1 of the 1949 Act begins: For the purpose of the continuous review of the distribution of seats at parliamentary elections, there shall be … permanent Boundary Commissions …". Section 2 begins: Each Boundary Commission shall keep under review the representation in the House of Commons of the part of the United Kingdom …". It is for the Boundary Commission, as was made clear in the report on England, to decide the timing of the reviews. It is this power which the Government have removed from the Commission and which one of the Amendments would restore.

The second point which the Under-Secretary of State made was that the Boundary Commission was not able to take into account changes which might be coming into effect. I referred in an intervention to what the Commission said about reorganisation in Northumberland: We proposed that, pending the outcome of the Royal Commission's review of local government in England, the seven borough constituencies should be left unchanged in spite of the disparities in their electorates". That makes clear that the Boundary Commission, as a body of sensible people, is perfectly capable, just as capable as the Government, to take into account the recommendations of the Redcliffe-Maud Commission or any other commission which might have reported on local government boundaries.

The Under-Secretary's advice to his hon. and right hon. Friends to reject the Amendments has exposed the myth behind the Government's suggestion that the reorganisation should be put off until after the recommendations of the Redcliffe-Maud Commission have been implemented. The only suspicion one is left with is that at the back of the Government's mind is not a proposal that this should be temporary but a proposal that they themselves should be able to decide, without consultation with any impartial body, when reviews should take place, and that they should be able to decide that such reviews should take place

Division No. 312.] AYES [11.0 p.m.
Albu, Austen Binns, John Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Bishop, E. S. Cant, R. B.
Alldritt, Walter Blackburn, F. Carmichael, Neil
Anderson, Donald Blenkinsop, Arthur Carter-Jones, Lewis
Archer, Peter Boardman, H. (Leigh) Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara
Armstrong, Ernest Boston, Terence Coleman, Donald
Ashley, Jack Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur Conlan, Bernard
Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw) Boyden, James Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)
Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) Bradley, Tom Crawshaw, Richard
Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) Bray, Dr. Jeremy Cronin, John
Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice Brooks, Edwin Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard
Barnes, Michael Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) Dalyell, Tam
Barnett, Joel Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) Darling, Rt. Hn. George
Bence, Cyril Buchan, Norman Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway)
Bidwell, Sydney Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)

at times and in circumstances which are to the electoral advantage of the Government happening to be in power. This is a proposition that the whole Committee should reject. We have had no satisfactory answer from the Under-Secretary, and when the time comes to divide I hope that my hon. Friends will support the Amendment in the Lobby.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

11.0 p.m.

Mr. Mellish

rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.

Hon. Members

Disgraceful.

Question put, That the Question be now put:—

The Committee proceeded to a Division—

Mr. Heath

Can you tell the Committee, Mr. Irving, what is going on? We cannot hear a thing.

The Chairman

Order. The right hon. Gentleman must be seated and covered. If I can help him, I have put the Question on the Closure. I am now taking Tellers, and his party has put its Tellers in.

Mr. Rippon (seated and covered)

On a point of order. Mr. Irving. We cannot hear what you said.

The Chairman

Order. What I explained to the Committee was that I had put the Question on the Closure to the Committee, that I was now accepting Tellers, and that the right hon. and learned Gentleman's party had put its Tellers in.

The Committee having divided: Ayes 270, Noes 235.

Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek) Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W.Ham, S.) Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) Pentland, Norman
Delargy, Hugh Kelley, Richard Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)
Dell, Edmund Kenyon, Clifford Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)
Dempsey, James Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.
Dewar, Donald Lawson, George Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)
Diamond, Rt. Hn. John Leadbitter, Ted Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)
Dobson, Ray Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) Price, William (Rugby)
Doig, Peter Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock) Rankin, John
Driberg, Tom Lee, John (Reading) Rees, Merlyn
Dunn, James A. Lestor, Miss Joan Rhodes, Geoffrey
Dunnett, Jack Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Richard, Ivor
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) Lomas, Kenneth Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) Loughlin, Charles Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy
Eadie, Alex Luard, Evan Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)
Edelman, Maurice Lyon, Alexander W. (York) Robertson, John (Paisley)
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St. P'c'as)
Edwards, William (Merioneth) Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Rodgers, William (Stockton)
Ellis, John McBride, Neil
English, Michael McCann, John Roebuck, Roy
Ennals, David MacColl, James Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)
Ensor, David MacDermot, Niall Ross, Rt. Hn. William
Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) Macdonald, A. H. Rowlands, E.
Faulds, Andrew McGuire, Michael Ryan, John
Fernyhough, E. McKay, Mrs. Margaret Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)
Finch, Harold Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Sheldon, Robert
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Mackie, John Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir Eric (Islington, E.) Mackintosh, John P. Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Maclennan, Rober Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N.E.)
Foley, Maurice Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Silverman, Julius
Ford, Ben Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Skeffington, Arthur
Forrester, John Mallalieu, J.P.W.(Huddersfield, E.) Slater, Joseph
Fowler, Gerry Manuel, Archie Small, William
Fraser, John (Norwood) Mapp, Charles Spriggs, Leslie
Freeson, Reginald Marks, Kenneth Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael
Galpern, Sir Myer Marquand, David Storehouse, Rt. Hn. John
Gardner, Tony Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Ginsburg, David Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. Mayhew, Christopher Taverne, Dick
Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Thomas, Rt. Hn. George
Gregory, Arnold Mendelson, John Thomson, Rt. Hn. George
Grey, Charles (Durham) Millan, Bruce Thornton, Ernest
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) Miller, Dr. M. S. Tinn, James
Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Milne, Edward (Blyth) Tomney, Frank
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) Tuck, Raphael
Harper, Joseph Molloy, William Urwin, T. W.
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Moonman, Eric Varley, Eric G.
Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Haseldine, Norman Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Hattersley, Roy Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Wallace, George
Hazell, Bert Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Watkins, David (Consett)
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis Morris, John (Aberavon) Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)
Heffer, Eric S. Moyle, Roland Weitzman, David
Henig, Stanley Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick Wellbeloved, James
Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret Murray, Albert Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Hilton, W. S. Neal, Harold Whitaker, Ben
Hooley, Frank Newens, Stan White, Mrs. Eirene
Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip Whitlock, William
Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) Norwood, Christopher Wilkins, W. A.
Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Oakes, Gordon Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Howie, W. Ogden, Eric Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Hoy, Rt. Hn. James O'Malley, Brian Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) Oram, Albert E. Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Hughes, Roy (Newport) Orme, Stanley Williams, W. T. (Warrington)
Hunter, Adam Oswald, Thomas Willis, Rt. Hn. George
Hynd, John Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) Winnick, David
Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) Owen, Will (Morpeth) Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.
Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) Page, Derek (King's Lynn) Woof, Robert
Janner, Sir Barnett Palmer, Arthur Wyatt, Woodrow
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Park, Trevor TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) Mr. J. D. Concannon and
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Pavitt, Laurence Mr. Ioan L. Evans.
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
NOES
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Balniel, Lord Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel
Aliason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Black, Sir Cyril
Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian Batsford, Brian Blaker, Peter
Astor, John Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)
Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) Body, Richard
Baker, Kenneth (Acton) Berry, Hn. Anthony Bossom, Sir Clive
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Biffen, John Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward Harvie Anderson, Miss Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian
Braine, Bernard Hastings, Stephen Osborn, John (Hallam)
Brewis, John Hawkins, Paul Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)
Brinton, Sir Tatton Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel Page, Graham (Crosby)
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Heseltine, Michael Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Higgins, Terence L. Peel, John
Bryan, Paul Hiley, Joseph Percival, Ian
Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M) Hill, J. E. B. Peyton, John
Buck, Antony (Colchester) Hirst, Geoffrey Pike, Miss Mervyn
Bullus, Sir Eric Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin Pink, R. Bonner
Burden, F. A. Holland, Philip Pounder, Rafton
Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) Hordern, Peter Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) Hornby, Richard Price, David (Eastleigh)
Carlisle, Mark Howell, David (Guildford) Prior, J. M. L.
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Hunt, John Pym, Francis
Channon, H. P. G. Hutchison, Michael Clark Quennell, Miss J. M.
Chataway, Christopher Iremonger, T. L. Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Chichester-Clark, R. Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Clark, Henry Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Rees-Davies, W. R.
Clegg, Walter Jennings, J. C. (Burton) Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Cooke, Robert Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Corfield, F. V. Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Costain, A. P. Jopling, Michael Ridsdale, Julian
Crouch, David Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey
Crowder, F. P. Kaberry, Sir Donald Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Cunningham, Sir Knox Kerby, Capt. Henry Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Currie, G. B. H. Kershaw, Anthony Royle, Anthony
Dalkeith, Earl of Kimball, Marcus Russell, Sir Ronald
Dance, James King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Scott, Nicholas
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Kitson, Timothy Scott-Hopkins, James
Dean, Paul Lambton, Viscount Sharples, Richard
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) Lane, David Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Digby, Simon Wingfield Langford-Holt, Sir John Silvester, Frederick
Doughty, Charles Lawler, Wallace Sinclair, Sir George
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)
Drayson, G. B. Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) Smith, John (London & W'minster)
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Longden, Gilbert Speed, Keith
Eden, Sir John Lubbock, Eric Stainton, Keith
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) McAdden, Sir Stephen Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Elliott, R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) Mac Arthur, Ian Stodart, Anthony
Emery, Peter Mackenzie, Alasdar(Ross & Crom'ty) Tapsell, Peter
Errington, Sir Eric Maclean, Sir Fitzroy Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Evans, Gwynfor (C'marthen) Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)
Eyre, Reginald McMaster, Stanley Temple, John M.
Farr, John Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret
Fisher, Nigel McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Maddan, Martin Tilney, John
Fortescue, Tim Maginnis, John E. Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Foster, Sir John Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest van Straubenzee, W. R.
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (S'fford & Stone) Marten, Neil Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John
Galbraith, Hn. T. G. Maude, Angus Vickers, Dame Joan
Gibson-Watt, David Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald Waddington, David
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Mawby, Ray Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Walters, Dennis
Glover, Sir Douglas Mills, Peter (Torrington) Ward, Dame Irene
Glyn, Sir Richard Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Wells, John (Maidstone)
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. Miscampbell, Norman Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Goodhart, Philip Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Wiggin, A. W.
Goodhew, Victor Montgomery, Fergus Williams, Donald (Dudley)
Gower, Raymond More, Jasper Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Grant, Anthony Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) Winstanley, Dr. M. P.
Grant-Ferris, Sir Robert Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Gresham Cooke, R. Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Grieve, Percy Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles Woodnutt, Mark
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Worsley, Marcus
Gurden, Harold Murton, Oscar Wright, Esmond
Hall, John (Wycombe) Nabarro, Sir Gerald Wylie, N. R.
Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Neave, Airey Younger, Hn. George
Hamilton, Lord (Fermanagh) Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Nott, John TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) Onslow, Cranley Mr. Hector Monro and
Harris, Reader (Heston) Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Mr. Bernard Weatherill
Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

Question put accordingly, That the Amendment be made:—

Division No. 313.] AYES [11.10.p.m
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Astor, John Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Allason, James (Hemel Hempsted) Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n') Balniel, Lord
Amery Rt. Hn. Julian Baker, Kenneth (Acton) Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

The Committee divided: Ayes 234, Noes 268.

Batsford, Brian Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Neave, Airey
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Gurden, Harold Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) Hall, John (Wycombe) Nott, John
Berry, Hn. Anthony Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Onslow, Cranley
Biffen, John Hamilton, Lord (Fermanagh) Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian
Black, Sir Cyril Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) Osborn, John (Hallam)
Blaker, Peter Harris, Reader (Heston) Page, Graham (Crosby)
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Body, Richard Harvie Anderson, Miss Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)
Bossom, Sir Clive Hastings, Stephen Peel, John
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John Hawkins, Paul Percival, Ian
Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward Heald, Rt. Hn, Sir Lionel Peyton, John
Braine, Bernard Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward Pike, Miss Mervyn
Brewis, John Heseltine, Michael Pink, R. Bonner
Brinton, Sir Tatton Higgins, Terence L. Pounder, Rafton
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col.Sir Walter Kill, J. E. B. Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Hiley, Joseph Price, David (Eastleigh)
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Hirst, Geoffrey Prior, J. M. L.
Bryan, Paul Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin Pym, Francis
Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M) Holland, Phillip Quennell, Miss J. M.
Buck, Antony (Colchester) Hordern, Peter Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Bullus, Sir Eric Hornby, Richard Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Burden, F. A. Howell, David (Guildford) Rees-Davies, W. R.
Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) Hunt, John Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) Hutchison, Michael Clark Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Carlisle, Mark Iremonger, T. L. Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Ridsdale, Julian
Channon, H. P. G. Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Rippon, Rt. Hot. Geoffrey
Chataway, Christopher Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Chichester-Clark, R. Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Clark, Henry Jopling, Michael Royle, Anthony
Clegg, Walter Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith Russell, Sir Ronald
Cooke, Robert Kaberry, Sir Donald Scott, Nicholas
Corfield, F. V. Kerby, Capt. Henry Scott-Hopkins, James
Costain, A. P. Kershaw, Anthony Sharples, Richard
Crouch, David Kimball, Marcus Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Crowder, F. P. King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Silvester, Frederick
Cunningham, Sir Knox Kitson, Timothy Sinclair, Sir George
Currie, G. B. H. Lambton, Viscount Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)
Dalkeith, Earl of Lane, David Smith, John (London & W'minster)
Dance, James Langford-Holt, Sir John Speed, Keith
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Lawler, Wallace Stainton, Keith
Dean, Paul Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Deedcs, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) Lloyd, Rt.Hn.Geoffrey(Sut'nC'dfield) Stodart, Anthony
Digby, Simon Wingfield Longden, Gilbert Tapsell, Peter
Doughty, Charles Lubbock, Eric Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec McAdden, Sir Stephen Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)
Drayson, G. B. MacArthur, Ian Temple, John M.
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross&Crom'ty) Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret
Eden, Sir John Maclean, Sir Fitzroy Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain Tilney, John
Elliott, R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) McMaster, Stanley Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Emery, Peter Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) van Straubenzee, W. R.
Errington, Sir Eric McNair-Wilson, Michael Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. -Hn. Sir John
Evans, Gwynfor (C'marthen) Maddan, Martin Vickers, Dame Joan
Eyre, Reginald Maginnis, John E. Waddington, David
Farr, John Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Walters, Dennis
Fisher, Nigel Marten, Neil Ward, Dame Irene
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Maude, Angus Wells, John (Maidstone)
Fortcscue, Tim Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Foster, Sir John Mawby, Ray Wiggin, A. W.
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone) Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Williams, Donald (Dudley)
Galbraith, Hn. T. G. Mills, Peter (Torrington) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Gibson-Watt, David Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Winstanley, Dr. M. P.
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Miscampbell, Norman Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Glover, Sir Douglas Montgomery, Fergus Woodnutt, Mark
Glyn, Sir Richard More, Jasper Worsley, Marcus
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) Wright, Esmond
Goodhart, Philip Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. Wylie, N. R.
Goodhew, Victor Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Younger, Hn. George
Cower, Raymond Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles
Grant, Anthony Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Grant-Ferris, Sir Robert Murton, Oscar Mr. Hector Monro and
Gresham Cooke, R. Nabarro, Sir Gerald Mr. Bernard Weatherill.
Grieve, Percy
NOES
Albu, Austen Anderson, Donald Ashley, Jack
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Archer, Peter Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw)
Alldritt, Walter Armstrong, Ernest Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.)
Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice Gregory, Arnold Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Grey, Charles (Durham) Morris, John (Aberavon)
Barnes, Michael Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) Moyle, Roland
Bamett, Joel Griffiths, Will (Exchange) Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Bence, Cyril Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Murray, Albert
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Neal, Harold
Bidwell, Sydney Hamling, William Newens, Stan
Binns, John Harper, Joseph Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip
Bishop, E. S. Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Norwood, Christopher
Blackburn, F. Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Oakes, Cordon
Blenkinsop, Arthur Haseldine, Norman Ogden, Eric
Boardman, H. (Leigh) Hattersley, Roy O'Malley, Brian
Boston, Terence Hazell, Bert Oram, Albert E.
Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis Orme, Stanley
Boyden, James Heffer, Eric S. Oswald, Thomas
Bradley, Tom Henig, Stanley Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)
Bray, Dr. Jeremy Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret Owen, Will (Morpeth)
Brooks, Edwin Hilton, W. S. Page, Derek (King's Lynn)
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Hooley, Frank Palmer, Arthur
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Parnnell, Rt. Hn. Charles
Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) Park, Trevor
Buchan, Norman Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Howie, W. Pavitt, Laurence
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Hoy, Rt. Hn. James Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)
Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Cant, R. B. Hughes, Roy (Newport) Pentland, Norman
Carmichael, Neil Hynd, John Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)
Carter-Jones, Lewis Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.
Coleman, Donald Janner, Sir Barnett Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)
Conian, Bernard Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Price, William (Rugby)
Crawshaw, Richard Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) Rankin, John
Cronin, John Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Rees, Merlyn
Crosland, Bt. Hn. Anthony Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Rhodes, Geoffrey
Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard Jones, Dan (Burnley) Richard, Ivor
Dalyell, Tam Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W.Ham, S.) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Darling, Rt. Hn. George Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy
Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)
Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway) Lawson, George Robertson, John (Paisley)
Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) Leadbitter, Ted Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenineth (St. P'c'as)
Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek) Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) Rodgere, William (Stockton)
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock) Roebuck, Hoy
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Lee, John (Reading) Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)
Delargy, Hugh Lestor, Miss Joan Ross, Rt. Hn. William
Dell, Edmund Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Rowlands, E.
Dempsey, James Lomas, Kenneth Ryan, John
Dewar, Donald Loughlin, Charles Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)
Diamond, Rt. Hn. John Lyon, Alexander W. (York) Sheldon, Robert
Dobson, Ray Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Doig, Peter Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N.E.)
Driberg, Tom McBride, Neil Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Dunn, James A. McCarm, John Silverman, Julius
Dunnett, Jack MacColl, James Skeffington, Arthur
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) MacDermot, Niall Slater, Joseph
Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) Macdonald, A. H. Small, William
Eadie, Alex McGuire, Michael Spriggs, Leslie
Edelman, Maurice McKay, Mrs. Margaret Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John
Edwards, William (Merioneth) Mackie, John Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Ellis, John Mackintosh, John P. Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
English, Michael Maclennan, Robert Taverne, Dick
Ennals, David Marion, Peter (Preston, S.) Thomas, Rt. Hn. George
Ensor, David Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Thomson, Rt. Hn. George
Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Thornton, Ernest
Faulds, Andrew Mallalieu, J.P.W.(Huddersfield, E.) Tinn, James
Fernyhough, E. Manuel, Archie Tomney, Frank
Finch, Harold Mapp, Charles Tuck, Raphael
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Marks, Kenneth Urwin, T. W.
Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir Eric (Islington, E.) Marquand, David Varley, Eric C.
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Foley, Maurice Mason, Rt. Km. Roy Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Mayhew, Christopher Wallace, George
Ford, Ben Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Watkins, David (Consett)
Forrester, John Mendelson, John Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)
Fowler, Gerry Millan, Bruce Weitzman, David
Fraser, John (Norwood) Miller, Dr. M. S. Wellbeloved, James
Freeson, Reginald Milne, Edward (Blyth) Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Galpern, Sir Myer Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) Whitaker, Ben
Gardner, Tony Molloy, William White, Mrs. Eirene
Cinsburg, David Moonman, Eric Whitlock, William
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) Wilkins, W. A.
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick Willis, Rt. Hn. George
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) Winnick, David TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch) Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. Mr. J. D. Concannon and
Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) Woof, Robert Mr. Ioan L. Evans.
Williams, W. T. (Warrington) Wyatt, Woodrow
Mr. Callaghan

I beg to move, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again. It would be ungracious not to say that, in the time that we have spent so far, we have disposed of two sets of Amendments. In view of that, I hope that the Committee will accept the Motion.

Mr. Hogg

I confess that, until this Motion was moved, I had been prepared to move the next Amendment standing in my name.

I wonder whether the Home Secretary is being entirely candid with the Committee. I believe that he has moved this Motion because Government Business has been reduced to a shambles. It has been reduced to that shambles because of the handling of the debate by the Government themselves. It has been reduced to a shambles owing to the antics of the Government Chief Whip, who must be the biggest Parliamentary nincompoop for a hundred years—

Mr. David Ensor (Bury and Radcliffe)

On a point of order, Mr: Irving. Is it in order for the Government Chief Whip to be referred to as a nincompoop by somebody who has been well known as a bell ringer?

The Chairman

Order. "Nincompoop" is not an unparliamentary word.

Mr. Hogg

I am grateful for your Ruling. Mr. Irving, against the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee.

I have no more to say—[Interruption.]—except that I believe that the real purpose of the Motion is to muzzle Parliament and gerrymander the constituencies.

Mr. Peyton

I rise to pay a polite but well deserved tribute to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg), who, in proposing the first Amendment this afternoon, exercised the utmost of civility and restraint under very difficult circumstances. His reward was to be barely listened to at all by the Home Secretary, who obviously allowed a very natural and well justified shyness and diffidence to show only in a steady movement towards the door.

Hon. Members

What is the point of order?

The Chairman

Order. I hope that the Committee will hear the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Peyton

I am obliged, Mr. Irving, because some of the less discerning of the hon. Gentlemen opposite thought that I was speaking on a point of order. I am, of course, not doing so. I am speaking on a Motion which was proudly proposed by their right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, who really has little of which to be proud. Not for the first time he has cooked the books—[Interruption.]—not for the first time he has been rumbled. and not for the first time he will fail.

I regard the Bill as one of the severest catastrophes that can confront Parliament, because it represents an attempt unilaterally to alter the ground rules and customs which, if an assembly like this is to work at all, must be observed and changed only with general agreement. It would take more credulity than most of us have to accept that this change in the rules only accidentally favours one party. For that reason, I believe that most fair-minded people of all parties and of none will conclude that the Government have been driven to this really sordid shift of practice, surrounded by desperation and a desire to escape from the shackles of a situation which they have created. One's verdict can only be that those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

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