HC Deb 18 December 1968 vol 775 cc1461-74

Amendments made: No. 22, in page 32, line 47, at end insert: 4A. In section 12 (place and manner of voting as elector at parliamentary elections) after the word 'incapacity' in subsection (1) (c) there shall be inserted the words 'or of religious observance'.

No. 23, in page 33, line 21, at beginning insert: (1) In section 23 (place and manner of voting as local government elector) after the word 'incapacity' in subsection (1) (c) there shall be inserted the words' or of religious observance. (2)'

No. 24, in line 24, at end insert: 7A. In section 24 (2) (absent voting applications which are for a particular local government election only) there shall be added at the end of the subsection: 'or (d) religious observance.

No. 25, in page 36, leave out lines 28 to 31.

No. 26, to leave out lines 32 to 35.

No. 27, to leave out lines 40 to 50 and insert: 'paragraph:— (2) Paragraphs (2) and (3) of rule 7 of the parliamentary elections rules shall apply'.

No. 57, in page 37, line 11, at end insert: 'and in rule 7 (e) after the words "provisions of" there shall be inserted the words "rule 5 (4A), or"'.

No. 29, to leave out lines 18 to 27.

No. 30, to leave out lines 28 to 31 and insert: 26.—(1) In rule 24 (1) of the local elections rules in Schedule 3 for the words 'one polling agent to attend at each polling station' there shall be substituted the words 'polling agents to attend at polling stations'.

No. 31, to leave out lines 34 to 39.

No. 32, in line 43, after '(4)', insert 'of each of those rules'.

No. 33, in line 46, leave out from beginning to end of line 15 on page 38.

No. 34, in page 38, leave out lines 21 to 25.

No. 35, in page 39, leave out lines 9 to 11.

No. 36, in line 24, at end insert: 27A. In Rule 33 of the parliamentary elections rules and in rule 26 of the local elections rules in Schedule 3, after paragraph (1), there shall be inserted as a new paragraph (1A)— '(1A) Not more than one polling agent shall be admitted at the same time to a polling station on behalf of the same candidate'.

No. 37, to leave out lines 29 to 33.

No. 38, to leave out lines 36 to 41.

No. 39, in page 40, leave out lines 6 to 8.

No. 40, in line 18, leave out from beginning to 'in' in line 22.

No. 41, in line 41, leave out from beginning to end of line 2 on page 41.—[Mr. Merlyn Rees.]

Mr. Speaker

We now come to Amendment No. 42, with which we are taking the two Amendments proposed by the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) to it.

Mr. Ross

I beg to move, Amendment No. 42, in page 41, line 17, at end insert: 36. In the Appendix to Schedule 3—

  1. (a) in Forms B1, B2 and B3, after the words 'preceding this date)', there shall be inserted the words 'and in either case the candidates description, if any';
  2. (b) in Forms D1, D2 and D3, after the column headed 'Addresses or Places of Residence' there shall be inserted a new column headed
'Description (if any)'; (c) in Forms El, E2 and E3, after the column headed 'Addresses or Places of Residence of Candidates' there shall be inserted a new column headed 'Description (if any)'; (d) in Form F, the second column shall include the description of the candidate, if any, and accordingly in that column there shall be made the following insertions—
  1. (i) after the word 'Hamilton', of the words', salesman, Labour';
  2. (ii) after the word 'Lanarkshire', where that word first occurs, of the words', schoolteacher, Progressive';
  3. (iii) after the word 'Lanarkshire', where that word second occurs, of the words 'National Independent Teenage Party';
and in Note 3, after the word 'resident', where that word first occurs, there shall be inserted the words 'and his description, if any', and for the words 'unless it' there shall be substituted the words 'and description except where his address, place of residence or description'. This Amendment is related to new Clause 2 and consequential changes in the specimen forms arising out of the change we made herein.

7.15 p.m.

Mr. Hogg

As this is almost the last discussion before Christmas, I feel that there are some rather curious—

Mr. Callaghan

On a point of order. When you read out originally, Mr. Speaker, the Amendments you were calling, you included No. 42 at that time, and I understood that we were having a discussion on it at that time. Is that not right? That is what I understood. Mr. Speaker read out No. 42. I addressed myself to some of the points in it. I am quite happy about it but I should like to be clear about our procedure.

Mr. Speaker

We are discussing Amendment No. 42.

Mr. Hogg

There are some curious things in this Amendment and I am not altogether surprised that the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) should have put down some Amendments to it. First of all, one notices the examples given in (d), which are put down by way of amendment to Form F under the the representation of the People Act, 1949. I have been at pains to look at Form F and I am bound to sav that the results are rather peculiar.

In the first place one notices that the description of the three parties, one, two, and three, attach, in the first case, after the word "Hamilton", the words "salesman, Labour". I wonder if the Secretary of State consulted the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mrs. Ewing) before making this particular selection of words. Why should the candidate for Hamilton or from Hamilton be described as "Labour" and why should the only person or party under the Amendment be Labour, the other two parties being called rather quaintly "Progressive" and "The National Teenage Party"? This is almost a direct incitement by Act of Parliament to vote Labour. Or is it because the Government realises that Labour, at the next election, will be reduced to the status of the National Teenage Party? I should like some explanation from the Secretary of State.

When I looked at Form F and what is done to the National Teenage Party I noticed that "the honourable John Morrison of Melville" is to be addressed as "National Independent Teenage Party". This can only refer to my old friend and colleague the noble Lord Margadale, and I must say that I hope that another place will substitute some other name, or perhaps some other party, because he has never been other than Conservative, as far as I know.

Why should this extraordinary selection of names and parties have been inserted when the only real party, the Labour Party, can provide all? I should like to know. It shows that in small things as in great the party opposite cannot avoid gerrymandering.

Mr. Speaker

Order. May I explain to the House that the Home Secretary was right in that I did announce Amendment No. 42 at the beginning of the Debate. However, I then made a selection in which Amendment No. 42 was to be taken separately. Apparently the message did not reach the Home Secretary.

Mr. Lubbock

I put down Amendments to the Amendment to draw attention to some of the points which the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) has just outlined. It is worthy of reflection that the Scottish election rules, which we are dealing with in this Amendment, are quite different from those provided for England and Wales. Paragraph 34 of the Schedule provides that in the Appendix to Schedule 2 to the Representation of the People Act, 1949—this refers to the English and Welsh election rules—candidates are described as Labour, Conservative, Independent, Liberal. What I want to know is why the Secretary of State for Scotland should have chosen different titles to apply to candidates in Scotland.

We all know that the Secretary of State for Scotland is somewhat peculiar. I noticed, for instance, that this afternoon when he spoke from the Dispatch Box we got unsatisfactory answers, whereas the Attorney-General and the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) have given us very good and fair replies. It may not be without significance that this Amendment emanates from the Secretary of State for Scotland, and that he has chosen to present parties and candidates in such a peculiar manner in Form F.

I agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for St. Maryle-bone. I do not see why the Labour Party should be top of the list, and therefore I would demote the former to the bottom, which I think is a suitable place for that party in view of its electoral fortunes at the moment.

"Mrs. Mary Smith" who is number 4 in the Scottish Local Election rules on Form F is described as nothing at all. Under the proposals of the Secretary of State for Scotland she now becomes "Representative of the Labour Party". Under my proposal she is described as a public relations officer, which, I suggest, is very suitable, because the Labour Party needs a few public relations officers at the moment.

The right hon. Gentleman has left the Liberal Party out of his calculations, although I am sure that in Scotland at the next election the Liberal Party will be doing extremely well, particularly in those constituencies where he thinks that the Labour Party will retain control. It would be appropriate if he recognised the realities of the situation by describing the candidate at the top of the ballot paper, Mr. John Grant of Hamilton, as the Liberal candidate, and I would put the Labour candidate right down at the bottom.

I have no objection to the National Independent Teenage Party, which I take it is the right hon. Gentleman's way of saying that a description of less than six words is within the terms of the description Clause which we have already discussed. One could design a very long title for such a party, such as the International Anarcho-Syndicalist, etc. with six words going right across the Order Paper—

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member may speak only to his own Amendment, not to an Amendment he thought he would have made had he had time.

Mr. Lubbock

I have no objection to the National Independent Teenage Party, if that is what the Secretary of State for Scotland thinks is a reasonable title for the type of organisation that might be represented in the Scottish elections. If I am allowed to discuss the main Amendment as well as my Amendment to it, the right hon. Gentleman would face reality if he included the Scottish National Party on his sample ballot paper, even if it meant lengthening the list of five candidates instead of four. It is no part of my brief to speak on behalf of the Scottish National Party, but if one is trying in Form F to illustrate what will take place in an election, so that registration officers, election agents and others can see what they are meant to do, then the closer this form corresponds to the realities of the situation, the more likely it is that people will get the thing straight during an election.

It would be interesting to hear what explanation the Secretary of State for Scotland has for the way in which he has redesigned Form F in the Scottish Local Election Rules. Unless he has a good reason for setting it out in the manner he has, my Amendment ought to be accepted.

Mr. Ross

With all due gravity, I ask that the Amendment should be resisted. Are we dealing with the Clause? I thought that I had moved it.

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Member is speaking for the second time by leave of the House.

Mr. Ross

By leave of the House, I am addressing myself to the Amendment, Mr. Speaker?

Mr. Speaker

Both.

Mr. Ross

The right hon. Gentleman was right in saying that elections in Scotland are different from elections in England. There is no provision for the inclusion of any description on the nomination and ballot papers at local government elections held in Scotland. If right hon. and hon. Gentlemen will look at the specimen ballot paper in the Representation of the People Act, 1949, they will find there Messrs. Grant, Grant, Morrison and Smith, who have been on the specimen ballot paper for all these years during which no one has worried about their designations.

To come to the change that we are making, at the will of the House we have decided to introduce for the first time descriptions, and some indication must be given how this should be done. The hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock), and I know it was kindly meant, said, as if we did not already know, that there are no Liberals in Hamilton. There are no Liberals in Lanarkshire or Rutherglen. If he wants us to face electoral facts we must do so. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I have no desire to reduce the Liberal Party in the eyes of anyone reading the specimen ballot paper when it is reprinted.

Mr. Lubbock

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me how many members of the National Independent Teenage Party there are in Lanarkshire?

Mr. Ross

I would be very surprised if there were a party of that name at all. We are showing the possibilities that are open to those who will stand at local elections in Scotland. We do not make it compulsory for anyone to state his designation as attached to any party.

Mr. Lubbock

I am sorry to intervene once again, but which does the Secretary of State for Scotland think is more likely to stand for election in Scotland, a person representing the Liberal Party or a person representing the National Independent Teenage Party?

Mr. Kenneth Lewis (Rutland and Stamford)

rose—

Mr. Speaker

One intervention at a time.

Mr. Kenneth Lewis

Does not the Minister think it is unfortunate that he should have chosen that name? Nowadays it is common to shorten names to the initial letters, and National Independent Teenage Party means N.I.T., which is an expression in common usage among young people. I hope that the Government are not suggesting that with votes at 18 that will be a proper description?

Mr. Ross

The hon. Gentleman will remember that there was a time when he intended to stand for the Rutland Independent Party; that would have been R.I.P.

All we seek to do is to show that personal and political descriptions may be used, and such descriptions are given for the first two candidates. The third candidate is given a political description, and the last candidate is given no description, and this is deliberate. The intention is that the use of a description, whether personal or political, should be discretionary. It is proposed to amend the Forms appended to the Scottish Local Election Rules to include a reference to "description, if any", so we are trying to guide people in what is permissible.

Mr. Hogg

Will the right hon. Gentleman address himself to what, although it was said in a fairly mocking tone, was a serious question. I asked him, why does he put in these three descriptions the name of only one real national party and that his own, coupled with the names of two nonsense parties.

Mr. Ross

The Conservative Party, the Liberal Party and Independents are mentioned elsewhere in the Bill. They already have had honourable mention. The hon. John Morrison, domiciled in Lanarkshire, has been included for all these years. I dare say the hon. John Morrison was in this House. There is less reason for confusion now, since he would not appear on the ballot paper because we have wiped out the non-resident qualification and, as far as I know, he is domiciled in Islay.

The result of the Amendment of the hon. Member for Orpington would be to insert a personal and political description, for the best reasons in the world to him, to highlight the single Liberal he has found in Rutherglen, after the fourth candidate's name on the specimen ballot paper. This might suggest, contrary to the provisions of the Bill as amended, that the inclusion of a description in a ballot paper was obligatory, and convey a misleading impression.

These are our only reasons for resisting the Amendment. We had no politics in mind. If anyone is concerned about the designations of parties in Scottish local elections, I can assure him that we could have picked some real honeys.

Mr. Lubbock

I am sorry to interrupt again.

Mr. Speaker

Order. The House is not in Committee.

7.30 p.m.

Mr. Lubbock

I only wish to point out to the right hon. Gentleman that in England and Wales there are five names on the ballot paper and these are named as being Labour, Conservative, Independent, Liberal and National Independent Teenage Party. Therefore, ought not the right hon. Gentleman to put down an Amendment to delete one of those: names in case people are misled into thinking that there must be a label in England and Wales?

Mr. Ross

I do not think so. I think it is perfectly clear. Being rather traditionalist and generally right about these matters in Scotland we stick to the specimen ballot paper with the same four names that we have had for nearly 20 years in the Representation of the People Act. For the guidance of those concerned, we have introduced possibilities about the change that we have now made. The hon. Member for Orpington may confuse Orpington as much as he likes, but leave the local government forms for local government elections in Scotland to be guided from Scotland rather than from Orpington.

Mr. Gordon Campbell

I have not interrupted the right hon. Gentleman because I was waiting to hear his explanation of the use of these sample descriptions for Scottish local government elections. His argument that because at the moment a Liberal is not, for example, a member of the Council of Rutherglen—and, for all I know, has not stood in the recent local elections—is nonsense. It is not a question whether there is a Liberal standing now or in recent history. One could stand in future. The point is that Conservatives and Liberals stand in local government elec- tions in Scotland. This is the argument—

Mr. Mervyn Rees

No.

Mr. Campbell

The Home Secretary may not have been present when the right hon. Gentleman was speaking.

Mr. Callaghan

I was here.

Mr. Campbell

If so, the right hon Gentleman was not listening. The Secretary of State for Scotland, perhaps in error, said to the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) who asked for a reason why a Liberal was not given in a particular sample, that it was because there was not a Liberal standing in that area for the council. That is the point I understood the right hon. Gentleman to have made. That is certainly what we understood him to say. I wish to make it clear because some hon. Members on both sides representing England and Wales may not have realised from what the right hon. Gentleman said, that both the Conservative and Liberal Parties stand in local elections in Scotland, but not in all areas. There are areas where Conservatives are not at present standing but where Progressives and parties with other names stand. For the same reason, I can understand that there are probably areas where the Liberal Party does not stand, but Liberal candidates do stand in various parts of Scotland. Therefore, it is misleading to mention only one of the major parties in Scotland, the Labour Party. The point has been made that the sample for England and Wales contains the names of the three major parties and others, but in Scotland only the Labour Party is mentioned. If the Secretary of State says that he is keeping the same names as were originally in the sample form, there is no need to attach the same parties to the names. He could bring in the major parties to make it clear that they are not opting out of local elections in Scotland.

Mr. Callaghan

Whom does the hon. Gentleman think this form might mislead and for whom does he think it is intended? Is the hon. Gentleman claiming that this form, which is basically the property of the returning officer to guide him in drawing up the ballot paper, will mislead the returning officer by all this faddle diddle the hon. Member for Orpington has raised this afternoon?

Mr. Campbell

No. But the answer which the Secretary of State for Scotland gave to the hon. Member for Orpington was thoroughly misleading. Unfortunately, what the right hon. Gentleman says is often reported in the Scottish Press and sometimes in the Press elsewhere, and everything he said today could mislead those who follow the debate on the Amendment moved by the Government.

Mr. Callaghan

That is absolute rubbish.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I remind the House that Report stage is a little more formal than Committee.

Mr. Campbell

I hope, Mr. Speaker, that you will commend the fact that I did not interrupt the Secretary of State, but listened to everything he had to say before replying. I have made it clear that the right hon. Gentleman's intervention was thoroughly misleading. I hope that, in another place, the Government will seek to make this sample form a proper sample.

Dr. Winstanley

I apologise for detaining the House. I would not have done so had the right hon. Gentleman given us any kind of answer to the serious and sensible point put by the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) and by my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock).

The purpose of these specimen lists of candidates, together with descriptions, is clear to all. It is to inform people about what is and what is not possible. The Home Secretary says that it is generally to inform the returning officer, but he will know that returning officers from time to time issue copies to show what is possible and what will later appear. I have seen such copies. The right hon. Gentleman knows that they exist. The purpose of the specimen lists is for information. In England and Wales there is a list of parties: Labour, Conservative, Liberal, Independent and National Independent Teenage Party. It may be true, as the right hon. Gentleman argued, that there should have been a candidate with no party to show that it is not necessary to have a description. But in the Scottish list, for reasons which the right hon. Gentleman has not explained, he has picked one real party, the Labour Party, and put that name in and two nonsense names. Why has the right hon. Gentleman done that? He could have followed the other sample and done something sensible which would have given the correct information, which is what we all want.

Mr. Ross

I am surprised—

Mr. Hogg

Has the right hon. Gentleman asked the leave of the House to speak again?

Mr. Ross

With the leave of the House. I am surprised at the attitude of the Liberals and, indeed, of the hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. Gordon Campbell). What we are doing is for the guidance of returning officers and those concerned with the drawing up of ballot papers for local elections in Scotland. A change arises because at the moment the only thing that appears on the ballot paper is the name and address of any candidate. We now say that it is open to a candidate to put in a description of himself and also of his party. Therefore, we seek to provide specimens of the various possibilities that arise from that change for the guidance of returning officers. I am surprised that hon. Members have tried to read party malice into this. We could have chosen any names that we liked. If we were to cover all the possible combinations of names and descriptions the specimen form would have been an impossible length. I ask right hon. and hon. Gentlemen to be reasonable. We did not select "Conservative" or "Liberal" when we mentioned them in paragraph 34 because this would be of great advantage to one or other. We had no ulterior motives. It is unfair to suggest that I was seeking to misguide people. It is possible to have various combinations. We have given specimens for the guidance of returning officers. If we had accepted the Amendment it would have been of less real guidance to returning officers and others concerned.

With this explanation I hope that the House will accept the Government's Amendment and reject the Amendment thereto.

Mr. Sharples

I intervene only briefly because I do not think the House has had a satisfactory explanation from the right hon. Gentleman. The Amendment raises a serious point. The Home Secretary's name appears first to the Amendment, and one therefore assumes that he has a certain responsibility for it. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman is open to suggestions when these are seriously made. I ask him to examine the matter himself, perhaps when the Bill goes to another place.

Mr. Callaghan

I think that a lot of nonsense has been talked. I cannot give any undertaking of the sort. I think that when the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) moved the Amendment he did so in the spirit of Christmas festivities, and he is perhaps rather surprised at the storm clouds which have gathered.

I understood that in Scotland many Conservatives stood as Progressives. They describe themselves as Progressives, and that word will appear in the column, just as will the word Labour. I do not think the hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. Gordon Campbell) had any idea what he was talking about. As for the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock), he is making a great song and dance about a form which is issued for the guidance of returning officers. I promise him that a returning officer in Scotland can detect a Liberal when he sees one, however rarely that may be. I do not think that there will be any difficulty about ensuring that the name Liberal appears on the ballot paper. If the hon. Gentleman takes himself a little less seriously now and again, he will get even more done than he does by his great pertinacity.

Mr. Gordon Campbell

The right hon. Gentleman has fallen into the trap of thinking that Conservatives and Progressives are exactly the same thing. Conservatives stand as Conservatives in some parts of Scotland, and the Progressive Party also stands, with its own description, as Progressives.

Mr. Speaker

Order. We cannot have a second speech.

Mr. Callaghan

I am glad to have it from the hon. Gentleman, who is such an authority on Scottish matters, that Conservatives cannot be Progressives, or that they are not Progressives. If they are the same, I do not see the point of his interjection. I am ready to accept that Progressives and Conservatives are not the same thing. If the hon. Gentleman feels that an injustice is being done to his party by describing it as Progressive, I accept that, too. I am replying in the same spirit as the right hon. and learned Gentleman spoke to the new Clause. That is to say, he, like me, thinks that much ado is being made about precious little.

Mr. James Dempsey (Coatbridge and Airdrie)

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I think that the House wants to come to a decision.

Mr. Dempsey

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Very well. Mr. Dempsey.

Mr. Dempsey

It is our experience in Lanarkshire that when the Progressive Party meets it meets as the Progressive Party, and then changes it chairman and meets as the Conservative Party.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: No. 43, in page 41, line 29, at end insert: (2) In Schedule 4, in paragraph 5 (3) (matters about which, in connection with absent voting, regulations may prescribe the required, sufficient or conclusive evidence) after the words 'of his being subject to any physical incapacity and as to its probable duration' there shall be inserted the words 'or of his being bound to any religious observance and of the nature and times of the observance'.—[Mr. Callaghan.]

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