§ 24. Mr. Juddasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will propose in the United Nations the establishment of an independent supervisory and investigatory system for the sanctions policy against Rhodesia.
§ The Minister without Portfolio (Mr. George Thomson)I have been asked to reply.
The Security Council Resolution of May, 1968, already contains provisions designed to make the supervision of sanctions more effective.
§ Mr. JuddWhile I welcome the news of increased pressure by the Security Council on the countries from which sanctions busters are operating, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he would not agree that independent supervisory and investigatory machinery is essential to the success of the sanctions policy?
§ Mr. ThomsonThe step taken by the United Nations in setting up this new machinery was a very important one. The body has held its first meeting. I think we must wait to see how it gets on. I agree with the importance of international supervision if the sanctions policy is to be effective.
§ Rear-Admiral Morgan GilesWhat information have the Government, through the United Nations or directly, about an increase in African unemployment brought about by the sanctions policy?
§ Mr. ThomsonThe hon. and gallant Gentleman ought to table a detailed Question about that.
§ 25. Mr. Juddasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many South African personnel it is estimated have taken part in security operations in Rhodesia since the unilateral declaration of independence.
55. Mr. Ted Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is his estimate of the number of South African police at present operating in Rhodesia.
§ Mr. George ThomsonI have been asked to reply.
I am not in a position to give the House reliable estimates.
§ Mr. JuddWould not my right hon. Friend agree that this totally unacceptable presence indicates the concern not only of the Rhodesian illegal régime but also of the South African Government 864 about security? Is this not a good reason for reactivating the principle of a direct British presence?
§ Mr. ThomsonNo, Sir. I think that my hon. Friend is aware of the reasons why we have always felt that the use of force by Britain was the wrong policy. I have recently made representations to the South African Government about the presence of these South African police, and the South African Government are well aware of our views.
§ Mr. David SteelIn his recent talks with members of the South African Government, did the right hon. Gentleman raise this matter as being one of considerable importance to the relation ship between our two countries?
§ Mr. ThomsonYes, Sir.
§ 43. Rear-Admiral Morgan Gilesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is his policy with regard to alterations to the com position of the Rhodesian Legislature provided that a blocking quarter of directly and popularly elected Africans is secured; and if he will make a statement.
§ Mr. George ThomsonI have been asked to reply.
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to Paragraph I (ii) of the "Fear less" proposals.
§ Rear-Admiral Morgan GilesWhen the right hon. Gentleman came back from the "Fearless" talks, he said that there was no trouble about this, but when he returned from Salisbury he said, on 18th November, that the Government could not accept it. Will he clarify this important point, even though we recognise that his position is made more difficult by the attitude of the British Prime Minister?
Mr. ThompsonI will try to clarify the point. No difficulty has been caused by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. Our position during my discussions in Salisbury was the same as our position in the talks my right hon. Friend had with Mr. Smith on H.M.S. "Fearless". It was Mr. Smith's position which had changed in the interim.
§ Rear-Admiral Morgan GilesOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.
§ Mr. SpeakerI take that point of order but the hon. and gallant Gentleman has now prevented another hon. Gentleman from asking a supplementary Question.