GREEK POLITICAL PRISONERS

HC Deb 11 April 1968 vol 762 cc1646-67

2.30 p.m.

Mr. David Winnick (Croydon, South)

There has been some concern since the military coup in Greece on 21st April last year about the position of Greek political prisoners. In the past six months in particular there have been very serious allegations about the torture of some political prisoners. It is because of my concern over the allegations which have been made in various British publications and my belief that there is a need for the British Government to raise the matter in various international bodies that I decided to try to have an Adjournment debate on the subject today.

I am not surprised by the Greek Government's attitude towards the allegations of torture or by the statement made by the Greek Embassy in London earlier this week. I am not aware of any dictatorship in the 20th century which has admitted that it treats its political prisoners badly. Indeed, the surprise would be if the Greek Government or the Greek Embassy in London admitted that the allegations were true or worthy of serious consideration. Therefore, I do not believe that we can give a great deal of weight to what has been said by the official sources in Greece.

In my opinion—and this certainly seems to be so, judging from the articles which have been published—over the 12 months since the military coup in Greece there has been a wave of terror and oppression against the political opponents of the régime and anyone who is likely to be considered suspect by the people ruling that country at present. The Guardian, The Times, and the New Statesman have not only published allegations of torture but have gone into details and published the names of the people whom they allege have been mentally and physically tortured. Only today The Times carries a further report headed, "Torture allegations are smuggled out of Greece", and we have read in The Guardian that its correspondent has now been excluded. That is a very bad step indeed. It is disgraceful that the Greek Government are preventing Mr. Cedric Thornberry from returning to Greece to report on matters there. But dictatorships are very sensitive to journalists who do not stick to hand-outs from the Governments concerned but carry out their own probes and investigations.

So far there have been two reports by Amnesty International on its investigations into the torture of Greek political prisoners. It is not for me to go into the origins of the organisation. I believe that both sides of the House recognise that it is basically a non-political organisation which has done excellent work on behalf of political prisoners in various countries, fascist or Communist, in African or Asian countries. No one believes that it is politically biased in any way.

In view of the two reports which have been published, I believe that the British Government have a serious duty to raise the whole question of the tortures in various organisations to which we belong—N.A.T.O., the Council of Europe, and one or two other bodies. The first report, issued earlier this year, said that 16 persons in Greece had testified that they had been tortured. The two lawyers, one British and one American, who carried out the investigation concluded: On the basis of first hand evidence and oral testimony, on the basis of scars on the bodies of those tortured, and on the basis of testimony of professional people and relatives, the Delegation can objectively state that torture is deliberately and officially used and was convinced that the use of torture is a widespread practice against Greek citizens suspected of active opposition to the Government". The delegation also gave details of the type of physical tortures carried out on the unfortunate victims. It said: The prisoner is tied to a bench and the soles of his feet are beaten with a stick or pipe. Between beatings the prisoner is usually made to run around the bench under a heavy rain of blows. Other methods used include pouring water down the mouth and nose while the prisoner is screaming from pain, putting soap in the eyes, mouth and nose, women having their most private parts tortured, and the sexual organs of men being twisted and tortured. I quote these tortures because I believe that the matter is so serious that they should be quoted. The report also said: Techniques of gagging are frequently reported. The throat is grasped in such a way that the windpipe is cut off, or a filthy rag … is shoved down the throat. Suffocation is prevented only at the last moment. Beating on the head with sandbags or beating the head against the wall or floor are standard procedure. Many cases of concussion have been reported. Beating naked flesh with wires knotted together into a whip… Jumping on the stomach … Rubbing pepper on sensitive areas of the body … Pulling out toe-nails and finger-nails. Different methods of inflicting burns, including putting-out cigarettes on parts of the body. The use of electric shock. It is no wonder that a Greek doctor, after examining some of the victims, was reported in The Guardian of 24th November as having said, "We have surpassed our medieval forefathers."

The second Amnesty International report was published earlier this week. The delegation consisted of one British lawyer, Mr. Marreco, who further investigated the torture allegations. The report said: Out of a total of 12 prisoners seen, 9 said quite definitely that they had been tortured and one said that he preferred not to answer the question. In each case the story they told corroborated all previous evidence as to place and the names of the torturers. The interrogation had taken the form of severe beatings on the soles of the feet … or Electric Shock treatment, the contacts being applied to the ears and other parts of the body. On behalf of Amnesty International, Mr. Marreco saw one of the people whose name is given in the second report, Mr. Notaras, aged 31, a well-known economist in Greece and research fellow at the Social Science Centre of Athens. He is a member of the Centre Union Party. This economist told Mr. Marreco that he had been tortured with electric shock treatment during 48 hours on the naval ship the "Elli". The other prisoners he saw claimed that apart from the physical torture there is psychological terror. Having been tortured once, they are threatened that there will be a new wave of tortures later and are constantly in fear that they will be taken out and subjected to further physical torture. These are very serious allegations, not based only on reports in serious newspapers in Britain, but on the evidence given by an Amnesty International delegation.

No one can seriously dismiss these allegations out of hand and say that no one should take much notice of them. it appears to be the case that the ship which I mentioned, the "Elli", is used for questioning prisoners and has been used for torturing a number of them. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State can give us his information on that. Apart from the person named in the Amresty International report—

Mr. Speaker

Order. Sooner or later the hon. Gentleman must come to Governmental responsibility. He must ask his own Government to take actions that they are able to take.

Mr. Winnick

I appreciate that, Mr. Speaker. I wanted to give examples of the torture in order to back up my basic case that there is a need for the British G Dvernment to take action. I have stated what seems to be the internal position in Greece in 1968, nearly a year after the military coup. May I quote the attitude of the Minister of the Interior before I mention the actions which I would like my own Government to take? In an interview between Mr. Marreco and Brigadier Pattakos, the Minister of the Interior, Mr. Marreco pointed out that international action might be taken against his Government. The dialogue went like this: Mr. MARRECO: You could be thrown out. Greece could be thrown out from the Council of Europe. Brigadier PArrAxos: Let them throw us out. Mr. MARRECO: Is that what you wish me to go back to London and say? Brigadier PATTAKOS: You force me to say it. The Greek Government has to protect its people against its Communist enemies. A Communist is not a Greek, he is a Communist first. Obviously, in Brigadier Pattakos's view, anyone who opposes his régime is automatically a Communist.

I want to refer now to what I consider to be the action which should be taken by the British Government. Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Holland took the initiative in lodging complaints against the military régime to the European Commission of Human Rights. The European Commission is looking into the matter now. I regret that it was not possible for the British Government to take the initiative, or to work in conjunction with the Scandinavian countries and Holland. There is an unfortunate impression, I hope an unjustified one, that the British Government are not too worried about the internal position in Greece.

I believe there is a need for the N.A.T.O. countries collectively to warn the Greek régime to stop the tortures. Publicity is what the Greek dictatorship fears most. They want to carry out their obnoxious and indefensible methods of ruling with as little international concern as possible. They do not wish articles to be published in the democratic countries. They do not want the subject of tortures to be raised in the British Parliament. They do not want continued publicity. We in demcoratic countries have the duty and responsibility to warn constantly about what is happening to the victims of the régime. I would, therefore, like the United States and Britain to warn the Greek Government about the concern that is felt in America and Britain. It has been said that, but for the substantial amount of American aid, it would be virtually impossible for the present Greek Government to remain in power.

I would also like the question of tortures to be referred not only to the European Commission of Human Rights but also to other organisations. I am not permitted to refer to the United Nations, but the matter should be raised in N.A.T.O. There is no reason why the democratic countries in N.A.T.O. should not very seriously consider the future of Greek membership. Is it right and proper that Greece should remain a member of N.A.T.O., bearing in mind the nature of her régime? It must be a clear-cut warning, given not just once, but continually, against the methods used and it must express the concern we feel at the infliction of physical and mental torture.

It is necessary to warn not merely the Greek Government, but all those in Greece who are responsible for torture. Those who issue instructions and the junior people who actually apply the torture should all be warned. I want the democratic Governments to say that the people who are responsible for torturing, either by giving instructions or by carrying out such instructions, will be held to account for what they are doing. The people who are committing the tortures must be told, when there is a change of régime in Greece, that they will not be able—

Mr. Speaker

If there is a change of régime in Greece and if they are called to account, that is a matter for Greece, not for the Minister.

Mr. Winnick

I am arguing that we should give a warning that the people responsible for the tortures will be held responsible and will not be able to escape scot-free.

I have referred briefly to the very serious allegations contained in the two Amnesty reports. There is bound to be continuing concern. Five hon. Members are going as a delegation to Greece very shortly. I hope they will take the opportunity of investigating the torture allegations, and that they will try to see the people named in the Amnesty reports. I shall be very interested in what they have to say when they come back. According to the usual conventions of the House, I wrote to the five hon. Members and told them that I would mention their forthcoming trip.

We have often in the House of Commons over a period of years raised matters which concern citizens of foreign countries. The House of Commons before the war was very concerned about what was happening in a number of foreign dictatorships. It is not unknown for matters of this kind to be raised in the House. I believe we are justified in doing so. We have a duty and a responsibility to the Greek people who are the victims of the dictatorship which came into power last year. I hope that the British Government will take the initiative in raising the matter, and that they will extend the deep concern and the deep anxiety we in the House of Commons have about what is happening in Greece at the present time.

2.45 p.m.

Mr. John Fraser (Norwood)

Hon. Members will be grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Winnick) for raising this matter. I know the people of Greece are grateful for the interest taken by the House and the country in their present tragic plight. They are, I think, particularly grateful for this kind of debate which raises the issue of anonymous political prisoners and what this Government can do to assist them. The famous are often heard about but anonymous prisoners tend to be forgotten. The suffering endured by a person who is tortured is just as great whether that person be famous, poor or unknown.

There is a long-standing tradition that the House takes an interest in the sufferings of other countries. There is a long tradition of the interest taken by various Governments, for instance, in the Balkans in the nineteenth century; in what happened in Europe during the war, and now in the people of Greece. The country is famous throughout the world not so much for their physical and commercial attainments but for their traditional defence of liberty.

It will be said by some people that the action proposed by my hon. Friend is interference in the internal affairs of another country. I hope to show that this is not so. First, we have a humane duty and resposibility to care about the suffering of those in other countries, no matter where the suffering occurs. Beyond that humane duty there are certain specific responsibilities. Each country that became a member of the Council of Europe, by virtue of that Treaty surrendered part of its sovereignty in order to give reciprocal guarantees of human rights. This country surrendered part of its sovereignty in that its own conduct could be investigated.

On two occasions the Greek Government have referred the treatment of political prisoners in Cyprus to the Convention of Human Rights. Therefore, by virtue of the Treaty, by virtue of our obligations, we are equally in order in raising the question of the treatment of political prisoners in Greece.

Secondly, within the N.A.T.O. Treaty we have bound ourselves together with Greece, other European countries and the United States to preserve liberty, democracy and the rule of law, that principle being specifically spelled out in the Preamble to the Treaty. Therefore, this is not an interference in human rights, this is the honouring of an obligation by this country, under a number of Treaties, to take an interest in and to pursue the rights of people in other countries. Under no Convention of Human Rights is torture ever justified. There may be occasions when the suspension of certain civil liberties and imprisonment without trial may be justified, but under Article 3 of the European Convention in no circumstances is torture justified. There can be no escape clause for the Greek Government on that issue. Even if there were no tortures at all I would still be equally interested in raising the question of freedom in Greece. Freed from the gaze of the public, the surveillance of the Press and the vigilance of Parliamentary institutions, torture in Greece goes on.

I should like to relate some personal experiences in Athens, which I visited to observe the trial of 38 students involved in political demonstrations. The students got up to 20 years' imprisonment. I went round a court martial and asked the relatives about the treatment of the prisoners. I was told that in the more serious cases the prisoners were treated very badly. It is, however, difficult to get firm information of this sort. I spoke to the Minister of Public Order and was warned that to talk about politics was an offence punishable by five years' imprisonment. So people remained anonymous because of the risk of imprisonment.

I went to one police station, which is like a Gestapo headquarters, to interview politicians. I spoke to Inspector Lambron, who was in charge of some of the interrogations. I was told that he did not treat prisoners softly but had to use certain methods in order to get information from them. I was told that there were two women in the basement at that time who were being treated badly, although most women were treated well. I saw several well-known, responsible figures, but I cannot quote their names because of the difficulties that they are in. I was told that fingers were being systematically broken with a view to obtaining confessions.

I should be called to order if I went too far in speaking about torture, but I suggest that there is a case for raising the matter in the Council of Europe, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and other international organisations. Action has been taken at the Council of Europe. I am glad of the stand taken by some of my colleagues in the House at the Co.mcil of Europe and the support which the Government have given them. I hope that the British Government, if convinced of the allegations that are made, will be willing to make a further reference to the European Commission of Human Rights on the subject of torture, the Scandinavian reference having been made on the subject of the suspension of civil liberties. I hope that we shall do this in concert with other countries. The premise of agreements that we have entered into is that we should do things collectively to preserve peace and civil liberties. So I hope that the whole matter will be raised in concert in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

The whole concept of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation becomes meaningless if we are prepared to tolerate nations inside the organisation that are not willing to observe the basic premise of the Treaty. It is no use individual nations raising the matter. It is important that the British Government should take a lead in collectively informing the Greek Government that unless they are prepared to ensure the restoration of human rights in Greece the rest of the countries in N.A.T.O. will not collectively, defend a country which has turned to Fascism.

With regard to tourist organisations, it would be useful to make it known that going as a tourist to Greece and aiding the Greek Government by giving them valuable foreign exchange is looked upon with disfavour. People have the right to go there if they want to, and I would not abrogate that right. However, we should act collectively in the spirit which has motivated Western European thinking since the war—that we want to preserve human rights. I believe that great pressure can be put upon the Greek Government. Greece is surrounded by countries which are not friendly to it, and it is vulnerable to Western opinion. It relies greatly on Western European aid, including military aid. It is, therefore, vulnerable to Western opinion that it should cease tortures and bring about freedom and democracy, something which the Greek people and the whole of Western Europe hold dear.

2.55 p.m.

Mr. Francis Noel-Baker (Swindon)

I apologise sincerely to my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Winnick). I made a mistake about the timetable for the debate and missed his speech. I am very sorry.

I am about to make what may prove to be a highly unpopular speech with many of my colleagues and with large sections of the British public who, in my belief, have been misled by political speeches, by sections of the British Press and by recent Amnesty reports about the real facts in Greece.

Mr. Speaker, you and I have been in Greece together. I had the honour on one occasion of translating a speech that you were making to Greek parliamentarians. You and the House know of my very close family associations with Greece, of my home on the Island of Euboea and of the charitable foundation that I and my father set up there. My great-grandfather was a relative of Lord Byron, and he went to Greece in 1832 and settled there. I feel very fortunate in having a home there. I have spent many of the happiest years of my life in Greece, so have my children and so has my father. I love Euboea. I love Greece. I love the Greek people. I believe that it is my duty to this House as well as to them to speak about Greece as I see it without fear or favour.

I am a politician in this House, but not in Greece. I have never intervened in Greek politics. I have been very careful not to do so. I have close personal friends in all Greek political parties. I even have a few in the Communist-controlled E.D.A. Party. It may interest my hon. Friends to know that a few days ago I was sitting in an Athens cafe when an ex-E.D.A. Member of Parliament came up and started talking to me in the presence of two other friends. I asked him how he had been treated when he was detained for about 20 days after the recent ill-fated attempted counter-coup by the King. He told me that he had had exemplary treatment.

I have my own opinions about the new Greek Government which came into power in the revolution of 21st April. I do not propose to develop them now. I should like to on some more appropriate occasion. I shall not develop them now because today we are supposed to be discussing facts, not political opinions—the facts about how the new Greek Government treat their prisoners and detainees and whether or not recent allegations about so-called police torture are true or false.

As a preliminary, I should make clear that the laws under which persons are imprisoned or detained in Greece are the same as those applied by previous Governments. They are all laws passed by democratically elected Parliamentary Greek Governments in the past. It is this legislation, and only this legislation, that the Greek Government are now applying. This was not the case in the very early days of the revolution when, as with any other revolution, emergency measures were taken.

Secondly, I assure the House that to the best of my knowledge and belief—I have met many of those concerned—the ranks of the city police and gendarmerie in Greece, the prison service, and the officers of the special branch of the police who are charged with security questions are the same officers as were working for previous Greek Governments. Inspector Lambrou has been mentioned. He has been a police officer for 23 years. He did precisely the same job, he tells me, in precisely the same way under the Government of Mr. Papandreou, among others.

Violence is alien to the Greek spirit, as you know, Mr. Speaker. There have been a number of military coups in Greece during the last 20 or 30 years, and hardly anyone has been killed in any of them. The great exception was the civil war during and after the Occupation. Up till 1939, Greece had one of the lowest rates of crimes of violence in the world. My father—I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker, I should say my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker)—tells me that I may quote him in saying that, in more than 50 years, he has never known a case of murder on the island where we live, except by Communist atrocities during the 1947–50 civil war.

To illustrate the extravagance of some of the things said about Greece, a delegation which visited the country recently reported that Greece had had Fascist Governments since 1945. But all the elections since the war, starting with one supervised by United Nations observers including the late Dick Windall, the National Agent at Transport House, have been fair and free—with the possible exception of the last but one of the elections held under Mr. Karamanlis when it was alleged that the troops voted in a way which supported the Government rather more than was entirely natural.

I want to elaborate my recent statement about allegations of police torture in Greece, and to refer to the second report by Amnesty International, because it has now been publicly revealed that it was I who suggested to Mr. Marreco that he should return to Greece and who persuaded the Minister of the Interior to see him and to allow him to interview any prisoners he wished. I asked Amnesty not to reveal my involvement in this matter, but perhaps because of a statement I made it felt free to reveal my name. I had his report translated into Greek, and asked Mr. Patakos to read it. I also asked Mr. Patakos to receive Mr. Marreco and to give him facilities to interview prisoners he wished to see. Mr. Patakos agreed to the request and undertook that there would be no victimisation as a result of Mr. Marreco's investigations.

I believe that there are limits to the interest which foreigners should take in the internal affairs of another country. Greece can perhaps be proud that, be-ca use she first gave the world democracy, many foreign democrats expect higher standards from her Government than from those in many Asian, South American, African, and even European countries, where oppressive and cruel dictatorships still in power came to power by revolutions much more violent than tint in Greece. All democrats hope that re presentative Government will be restored in Greece without violence and upheaval and all civilised people deplore the use of torture by any Government anywhere.

But any organisation seeking to defend human rights and report on them has a duty to conduct its inquiries in a responsible and objective way and to check facts beyond all doubt before they are published. I very much regret to have to tell the House that, in my opinion, the latest Amnesty report and Amnesty's methods of investigation in Greece do not satisfy these requirements.

I was present at two of the interviews between Mr. Marreco and Mr. Patakos. I accompanied Mr. Marreco to Athens police headquarters. I did not stay for his interview with a prisoner there because this might have embarrassed him. Nor did I stay for his interviews with other prisoners because I could not delay a journey to Cyprus. I had a lengthy dis cussion with Mr. Marreco, his interpreter, and another Amnesty colleague after his return and I also talked to him in Athens and in London before his journey.

Mr. Marreco is perfectly entitled to his own opinions, but he seemed to me to have such strong opinions, and his contacts seem to have been so limited to those who share them, as to make it extremely difficult for him to make an objective assessment of the subject.

Mr. Marreco speaks no Greek. He does not know the country. His assistant-interpreter was working for Amnesty in a manner which contravened longstanding Greek regulations and would not have been tolerated in this country. I am glad that the Greek Government has publicly confirmed that they will give all facilities to the Red Cross and other competent international bodies to make further on-the-spot investigations. I hope that these will clear up any remaining doubts about torture.

I deplore political oppression however and wherever it is practised. The founder of Amnesty is one of my closest personal friends, and I much regret having to criticise Amnesty's report. I hope that Greece will soon return to democratic Parliamentary Government in an orderly manner and that the real facts will soon become known.

Mr. Ben Whitaker (Hampstead)

Before my hon. Friend sits down—

Mr. Speaker

Order. This debate is lasting longer because a previous debate finished earlier than expected, but it must finish at 3.30.

3.5 p.m.

Mr. Peter Archer (Rowley Regis and Tipton)

I must declare an interest in this matter. I hold office in Amnesty International. I hope that the House will not think that my interest is other than identical with the interests of the human beings most closely concerned with this matter.

No one doubts the good faith and great authority with which my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker) can speak on matters relating to Greece. But no one doubts, too, that of course the Greek Government does not bring to his notice the way in which these prisoners are treated. I wish that my hon. Friend had not referred to Mr. Marreco in the terms he used. Mr. Marreco is a member of the English Bar. He was a member of the team which prosecuted on behalf of the United Kingdom at the Nuremberg trials, and the British Government has shown its confidence in his judgment. Mr. Marreco, on his first visit to Greece, spent four weeks investigating. He spoke to prisoners who had been released, He spoke to the friends and relatives of those who were still in custody. He saw the marks of physical torture, in particular the falanga, to which my hon. Friend has referred. He saw the marks of mental torture.

I will not delay the House more than a moment to read one short passage from his report, but it refers to the practice of persuading prisoners to sign statements denouncing those nearest and dearest to them and renouncing their most cherished beliefs. It goes on to say: The expert in these matters is Mr. Tournas, promoted to be director of Greek prisons under the régime. He begins by getting the prisoner to sign something innocuous, then tears up the paper and makes the prisoner renounce more and more that he holds sacred. The delegation interviewed people who had signed under this pressure, and all were in some sense broken". It is true that the International Commision of the Red Cross has also had an opportunity of investigating Greek prisons. One would have thought that the régime could derive little comfort from its report. It stated that the camp at Yiourra should be closed and that two camps at Leros were not suitable for longterm detention. It is fair to say that the report said that none of the prisoners still in the camps had complained to the Commission of torture. Perhaps the House will not be surprised to hear that those who are still very much in the power of security police have not gone out of their way to invite reprisals.

I was a little surprised when my hon. Friend stated that the Greek Government had announced that it would give facilities for further investigations. I was under precisely the opposite impression. I derived that from a report in The Times two days ago and from a leader in that newspaper. If it is true that the Greek Government would welcome further investigations, that is something which the House will, no doubt, be pleased to hear and the matter can be followed up.

Mr. Francis Noel-Baker

May I read the quotation from the Minister who gave a statement on 8th April? It states: There are international conventions and bodies competent on this subject as well as the Red Cross, and all facilities will be given to these Committees to make on-the-spot representations".

Mr. Whitaker

Is it not surprising that if, as the Greek Government alleges, it has nothing to fear, it is continually expelling independent journalists, including experienced Hellenophiles like Mr. Leslie Finer?

Mr. Archer

I must not delay the House for any length of time. Perhaps on some other occasion it would be possible to take the matter further. I refer hon. Members who are interested in following it up to the report in The Times two days ago.

I want to make only one other point. It has been said more than once that a Government should be reluctant to intervene in the internal affairs of another country. I fully accept that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary must have regard not only to the interests of human beings in Greece, but to the good relations of this country with a foreign country, whatever we may think of its internal régime. That I fully accept.

The matter does not, however, end there. The whole conception of the international protection of human rights entails a general recognition among civilised countries that some types of behaviour by a Government, even to its own subjects, are the concern of the whole world, and on which none of us can compromise our consciences with the pretext of non-intervention in the internal affairs of another country.

All those countries which have accepted the various international agreements and conventions on human rights, including the European Convention, have accepted that in doing so they are inviting world opinion to pass judgment upon their treatment of their own subpects. They are giving their own individual subjects a right of appeal, not only over their heads, but against the Government itself, to the bar of world opinion. This is a new conception. It is the appearance of the individual as a subject in international law. It may be the first step towards a greater and wider conception of international law and order.

In my view, those who, like the United Kingdom Government, have a very commendable record in this direction, have some responsibility to ensure that now that those institutions are in existence, they will be properly used. When we see a thug beating up an old lady, we do not apply a policy of non-intervention because we might hurt his feelings. It would be a very great pity if this country's remarkable record in human rights were jeopardised now by a reluctance to use the existing institutions.

3.15 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. William Rodgers)

IE is now almost a year since the dramatic seizure of power in Athens brought democracy in Greece to an end. I think that all of us. at that time, felt a deep sense of shock at the arbitrary abrogation of constitutional principles. We were aware, of course, of the tragic and searing experience that the Greek people had been through not much over 20 years before, but we had hoped that the wounds had healed and that stable and effective democratic government would become the rile. The strength of feeling aroused by the coup d'état was a measure both of our ancient friendship for Greece and of hopes disappointed that unsettled times were over.

I therefore share the welcome which my hon. Friends have given this short debate, because it is further evidence of the continuing concern in the House about the situation in Greece, and especially questions of human rights. No one in Greece should underestimate the intensity of public feeling or fail to recognise its representative character. There may be a few critics about whose own attachment to democracy there can be doubt, but the vast majority are moved by a powerful and genuine wish to see the people of Greece live at peace and enjoy the freedoms which we take for granted.

The Government hope that these expressions of concern, based upon a fundamental goodwill, will be heard and understood. Despite the fact that a date has been set for the referendum on the constitution and that free public discussion of the proposals has been promised, the road for a return to democracy may be long. I would mislead the House if I implied otherwise. Meanwhile, the restoration of the freedom of the Press would be a firm step in the right direction. We also hope—I note the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead (Mr. Whitaker)—that responsible foreign journalists will not be denied the opportunity of working in Greece.

I come to the particular and distressing issue which is at the centre of our debate today. I have, of course, received both of the reports issued by Amnesty International, and I have read the views of the International Committee of the Red Cross. I have also seen many Press reports, including the one in today's Times, referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Winnick). I have had the benefit of talking to Mr. Anthony Marreco of Amnesty International and to other recent visitors. In addition—I shall return to this later—our Ambassador in Athens has kept in close touch with us on all matters involving human rights and civil liberties. We have been aware for some time of reports about the maltreatment of detainees and, since November, of more specific allegations of torture.

May I make the British Government's position quite clear? We are gravely disturbed at these allegations of torture, for the most part responsibly made. There is certainly strong prima facie evidence of people having been subjected to what one would regard as inhuman treatment under police interrogation. This is a serious situation, and one which is exceedingly damaging to the reputation of Greece. It is now up to the Greek Government to convince world opinion that the allegations are unfounded; or, that, if torture has occurred, these were deplorable but isolated incidents which will not be repeated. The best means of ensuring this is to provide the necessary facilities for a thorough inquiry. In our view, full co-operation in the proceedings of the European Commission of Human Rights is the right course.

Let me set out the procedure which has been followed. On the 20th of September last the Danish, Swedish and Norwegian Governments lodged applications with the European Commission of Human Rights against Greece under Article 24 of the European Convention. They were joined a week later by the Netherlands Government.

Under the procedure of the European Commission, once an application under Article 24 is lodged, the Government against which the allegations are made has an opportunity to submit written observations on its admissibility. If the Commission then agrees that the application is admissible, a sub-commission is appointed to consider the merits of the dispute. The applicant Governments submit written memorials on the merits, and the defending Government has the chance to submit a counter-memorial. If the Commission requires further argument or evidence, the applicant Governments may be asked to supply it, and once more the defending Government will be given an opportunity to reply. Finally, the Commission makes its report, which is submitted to the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe.

In the present case, the Commission pronounced the Applications brought by the Scandinavian Governments to be admissible on 24th January. On 25th March, the Scandinavians went further and extended the scope of their original allegations to include evidence of alleged violations of Article 3 of the Convention prohibiting torture and inhuman treatment of prisoners.

I want to make perfectly clear—there may have been some misunderstanding about this—that the action by the Scandinavian and Netherlands Governments has set the machinery of the Commission into motion, that the allegations of torture have been brought to the attention of the Commission, and that they will receive an impartial investigation of a judicial nature. We did not join in the Scandinavian initiative, but we have the greatest sympathy with its aims and hope that it will achieve valuable results. I hope that, if my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South had doubts on this score, I have alleviated them.

Hon. Members have again raised the question of drawing the allegations of torture to the attention of the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva. The possibility was in our minds some time ago when my hon. Friend, the Member for Croydon, South first urged this, as he has done again today. But, in fact, the Committee needs no prompting. It has received permission to continue the detention centre inspections of Greece which it started after the coup d'état. A delegate went to Athens in January, and he was joined by a doctor-delegate for a fortnight in March.

This was the fifth mission of assistance to political detainees in Greece. As in the course of earlier inspection tours, the delegates were admitted to three camps for exiles on Yaros and Leros, and to the prisons and hospitals which they had visited before. They also went to penitentiary establishments in Athens, Aegina, Crete and Salonica in which persons accused or sentenced for political offences are held, as weal as to the Averoff prison in Athens.

The delegates immediately reported their findings to the Greek Government. They also distributed relief supplies to the detainees and their families and opened at the Greek Red Cross headquarters an office for the transmission of news between detainees and their families.

We thus have a situation in which the International Red Cross is already actively engaged in Greece. I welcome this chance to affirm our wholehearted support for its work. We hope that it will continue and that the Greek Government will extend them full facilities.

Mr. John Fraser

It is general practice for the report of the Red Cross to remain confidential unless its disclosure is permitted, in this case by the Greek Government. Can my hon. Friend say whether it has been disclosed to the British Government?

Mr. Francis Noel-Baker

Could I draw to the Minister's attention the fact that a number of reports by the International Red Cross have been released? I have them here and they are quite bulky. I believe it to be the intention of the Greek Government to give these facilities for further investigations and to release subsequent reports.

Mr. Rodgers

I cannot comment on this and other effects of the action of the Government. My hon. Friend the Member for Norwood (Mr. John Fraser) is correct that the reports are for the Government and it is for the International Red Cross, in conjunction with the Government, to decide whether to make any specific report available.

Mr. Noel-Baker rose—

Mr. Rodgers

I will not give way. My hon. Friend has had a full opportunity to speak.

Mr. Noel-Baker

The reports have been published.

Dame Irene Ward (Tynemouth)

I have one here.

Mr. Noel-Baker

We all have them.

Mr. Rodgers

As I was saying it is up to the International Red Cross, in conjunction with the Government concerned, to decide which of its reports are published. We are anxious that all reports produced by the International Red Cross about the situation in Greece should see the light of day. For reasons which are generally appreciated, we established a working relationship with the new régime after the coup and, having paused, following the King's flight, we resumed diplomatic contacts at the end of January.

As the House understands, diplomatic relations do not imply approval of a régime or its methods. If they did, relatively few nations would be on speaking terms with each other. We have concentrated on making direct representations to the Greek Government on the whole range of questions involving human rights and the return of constitutional rule through our Ambassador in Athens, and through the Greek Ambassador in London. In particular our Ambassador carried out instructions to take up questions of civil rights with Greek ministers concerned on five recent occasions.

He has spoken with Mr. Makarezos, the Deputy Prime Minister, and with Mr. Sideratos of the Prime Minister's office, among others. He has had frank discussions on the treatment and release of the prisoners and other aspects of civil liberties. There can be no doubt whatever that the Greek Government are fully conscious that we take all questions of civil liberties very seriously indeed. They know that we regard the continued detention of over 2,400 people without trial as offensive to democratic principles, especially when the Red Cross has reservations about the conditions in which at least some of them are held. In particular they are aware that allegations of torture are a real obstacle to international friendship and understanding.

I cannot tell the House that these representations will be decisive. It is often easier for Governments to modify their policies in response to what must essentially remain confidential exchanges than to appear to bow to public protest. The point is this: an initiative has been taken in the European Commission of Human Rights, and we hope that it will be productive. The International Red Cross is involved and its good offices will continue. We see our rôle as being complementary. One line does not exclude the other. On the contrary, each increases the prospects of results.

As for other moves, suggested by my hon. Friends, for example involving N.A.T.O., I do not think that they will take us any further. On the contrary, they might vitiate, at least in part, the effectiveness of our representations. Gestures are empty unless they really help those most in need. This can be the only measure of their worth. I would add that the United Nations Commission on Human Rights debated Greece earlier this year. We would have been prepared to support any effort to find out the facts of the situation, but the majority in the Commission was not ready to go even this far. As the tone of speeches has shown, for many friends of Greece the last year has been a very sad chapter in a glorious history. They have been deeply wounded by events and moved by much that has seemed cruel and misjudged. We must hope, nevertheless, that those in Greece who carry responsibility and wield power will move forward steadily to a restoration of democratic liberties and human rights. We shall all rejoice when Greece emerges from the dark tunnel of her present discontents.

Mr. Francis Noel-Baker

I have in my hand the reports published by the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva following visits to Greece in July, 1967, December, 1967, and March, 1968. In addition, we have the categorical public statement by the Minister concerned in Athens on 8th April inviting further inspection of prisons by the International Committee of the Red Cross and offering to publish those reports. Is my hon. Friend not aware of these reports?

If not, will he allow me to hand them to him?

Mr. Rodgers

I am certainly aware of those reports, but there is a more recent report. As I stated, it is the International Committee of the Red Cross alone and not the British Government who can decide whether a report should be published. I said that we hoped that the Greek Government would continue to provide facilities for the International Committee. If the International Committee wish to publish their reports, we shall be very glad.

Dame Irene Ward

If the report mentioned by the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. Francis Noel-Baker) is handed in, can it be published in the OFFICIAL REPORT?

Mr. Rodgers

I do not think that that would be in order, but I see no reason why it should not be available in the Library of the House.