HC Deb 06 March 1967 vol 742 cc1039-42
37. Mr. Boyd Carpenter

asked the Lord President of the Council whether, in view of the inconvenience caused to honourable Members and the loss of time for interventions by back-bench Members in major debates resulting from bringing proceedings on the main business of the day on Mondays and Wednesdays to a conclusion at 9.30 p.m., he will now move to amend the Sessional Order so as to end such business at 10 o'clock on those days on all occasions when the suspension of the rule is not moved.

Mr. Crossman

No, Sir.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what justification there is—quite apart from the different issues raised by my succeeding Question—for depriving hon. Members of the half-hour's time which they could very usefully employ during the course of major debates?

Mr. Crossman

I would not put it quite in that way. The right hon. Gentleman knows that we have saved a certain amount of time for the afternoon debates by taking some of our Ten-Minute Rule speeches and Ministerial statements in the morning. For the convenience of hon. Members we have sought to see that we rise at 10 p.m. each day.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Does the right hon. Gentleman dispute that, whatever he has done in other ways, by adopting the suggestion of this Question and finishing main debates at the same time as we do on other days, two or three more hon. Members would get in on major debates on Mondays and Wednesdays?

Mr. Crossman

On all these things we have to balance convenience and we felt that it was for the convenience of the House to rise at 10 p.m. on each day of the week.

Mr. Rankin

Would it not be possible to start very important debates in the forenoon, as the forenoon sitting is part of the day's business and just as important as the afternoon sitting?

Mr. Crossman

Whatever I think, I doubt whether that would satisfy the right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter). I hope to make a report about short speeches in the near future.

38. Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

asked the Lord President of the Council whether he is aware that since the date on which the House began to sit in the mornings it has on average risen later on the days on which it has sat in the mornings than on days on which it has not so sat; and whether he will therefore now move to amend the Sessional Order so as to abandon the experiment of morning sittings.

Mr. Crossman

I think the right hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension. We have not tried to relate early risings to the days of morning sittings. The intention has been to relieve late sittings over the week as a whole, and this we are doing.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware, that, anticipating a lapse of memory on his part, I have with me the OFFICIAL REPORT for 14th December in which he specifically says that the success or failure of the experiment of morning sittings will be judged on whether the House rises earlier or later on those two nights? Will the right hon. Gentleman now look at the matter again and not display the same obstinacy which he showed on Thursday?

Mr. Crossman

I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman wants a serious answer to his Question. I have said this time after time, and I will repeat it again. Our aim is to see that we have early rising as often as possible during the week. I pointed out that it is impossible, particularly when the Opposition makes it impossible, to see that the early rising is always on the same day as the morning sitting.

For the right hon. Gentleman's convenience I made a calculation about last week. The House sat for 2 hours and 31 minutes after 10 p.m. last week. For the same week last year it sat for 4 hours and 34 minutes. The real test is the amount of time that we spend after 10 p.m., and we have spent considerably less time after 10 p.m. in recent weeks than we did a year ago.

Mr. Speaker

Order. Answers must be reasonably brief.

Dr. John Dunwoody

Would my right hon. Friend not agree that since the introduction of morning sittings, out of the 18 whole days' business we have had, we have adjourned before 11 p.m. on nine of those days? Is he aware that many of his hon. Friends on this side of the House welcome this experiment? Would he further consider moving the whole of Friday's business forward by one hour so that it starts at 10 o'clock and adds to the convenience of those hon. Members who have long distances to go to their constituencies at weekends?

Mr. Crossman

I will certainly consider that proposal. I am thankful to my hon. Friend for his calculation on the first matter. I think that the House is gradually becoming convinced of the purpose of this change.

Sir G. Nabarro

Is it not a fact that none of the difficulties pronounced in these two Questions would arise if Privy Councillors would limit the length of their speeches, making them of reasonable length instead of hogging the Floor of the House to the detriment of most back-benchers?

Mr. Crossman

It is with great pleasure that I have the hon. Gentleman on my side, for once.

Mr. Orme

Is my hon. Friend aware that many of us feel that there has been a slow and tentative start to morning sittings, but that the experiment is worth while? Is he further aware that what we would like to see is the abandonment of Monday morning, replaced by Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, and for the business to be rolled back to start properly at 10 o'clock?

Mr. Crossman

I will certainly bear in mind the suggestions of my hon. Friends, and those from the other side of the House.

Mr. Lubbock

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a twelve-hour day is quite long enough, and that exempted business should not be taken on any day on which there is a morning sitting? Secondly, could he say why it is that the tradition of the House is that we always have a two-hour extension on the Service Estimates? Are there not other things just as important which should be given this additional time?

Mr. Crossman

I would have thought that the second part of that question was beyond the original Question. As for the first part of it, I will certainly bear the hon. Gentleman's remarks in mind.