MORNING SITTINGS (Hansard, 1 February 1967)

§ Mr. Lipton
May I now raise with you, Mr. Speaker, another point of order which I tried to raise this morning? The whole object of morning sittings, I submit, was to relieve the pressure on the lime of the House in its afternoon and evening sittings. If I understood your Ruling aright, that no point of order raised during a morning sitting can be considered until the end of Questions in the afternoon, I would ask you very respectfully to consider that ex cathedra pronouncement—which surprised me and, perhaps, other hon. Members—for this reason.
You will realise, Sir, as well as anyone that 3.30 in the afternoon is the most congested moment in the Parliamentary day. You can have Ministerial statements, the introduction of new Members, Motions under Standing Order No. 9, Motions for leave of absence, personal statements, questions of Privilege—all these raised at half-past three. I suggest to you, Sir, that it frustrates the object of the morning sitting if there is unnecessary postponement of business such as points of order from the morning sitting until half-past three in the afternoon.
You are empowered, Mr. Speaker, to deal with points of order at any time of the day or night. If a point of order is raised at 4 o'clock in the afternoon or at 8 o'clock in the evening, you are none the less emplowered to deal with it. In the circumstances, Sir, I invite you very respectfully to reconsider your decision not to deal with points of order during morning sittings.

§ Mr. Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He has done the House a service in asking Mr. Speaker to clarify the Ruling which he gave this morning.
I was being addressed at that time on a point of order arising out of something which occurred last night. This is the kind of point of order which, involving Privilege, ought to be raised at half-past three in the afternoon. Had I known 515 that the point of order which the hon. Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton) wished to raise this morning had something to do with this morning's business, I should certainly have heard him. I hope that that clears up what was, apparently, an ambiguous Ruling which I gave this morning.

§ Mr. Lubbock
On another point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask your guidance on a question arising from this morning's sitting when Mr. Deputy Speaker was in the Chair? He was asked whether he would accept a Motion for the Closure, and he said—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. One cannot raise from Chair to Chair Rulings which Mr. Deputy Speaker has given.

§ Mr. Lubbock
I quite understand, Sir, but I was not seeking to do that. The question arose as to whether, if you had been in the Chair, you would have been empowered to accept a Motion for the Closure, and the point then arises, with reference to morning sittings, as it appears to many of us who were present, that a Motion for the Closure could not be put because, under our new Standing Orders, there is no provision for a Division to take place before 1 o'clock.
I should be most grateful, Sir, if you would give your Ruling on whether, under the new Standing Orders, it is possible to put a Motion for Closure of debate at all during morning sittings.

§ Mr. Speaker
The simple answer is that it is possible to put a Motion for the Closure at any time. It is a question of whether the Chair will accept it or not. The implications for a Closure under the new arrangements for our morning sittings are rather different from the implications of the ordinary Closure procedure in that the Division on a Motion for the Closure, if the Chair permits it, will take place, like all other Divisions on matters from the morning sittings, at the end of the day's business.

§ Mr. Lubbock
With respect, Mr. Speaker, I think that that leaves the House in some doubt. The Motion for the Closure would be put, but no one would know whether or not it was accepted until some unknown hour, possibly in the middle of the night.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman must read carefully what I said. It is quite clear. The Closure will or will not be accepted, just as in the ordinary day's business. The implications of it are a little different. That is all.

Dr. Bennett
On a further point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask whether Mr. Speaker has been empowered to adjourn the House before 1 o'clock at a morning sitting? If Mr. Speaker, having no right to count the House, finds that there are no Members present other than himself, is he entitled to suspend the sitting?

§ Mr. Speaker
The Chair has enough to do to rule on what happens, without having to rule into the future on what might happen. The Chair will deal with that when it arises.

§ Mr. Rankin
Further to the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock), Mr. Speaker. In view of the happenings at this mornings sitting, may I ask you not to come to a final decision on the operation of the Closure, but will you in the interests of—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The Chair comes to no final decisions on the operation of the Closure. Every Motion for the Closure is dealt with—this has been so in the history of Parliament—when it is demanded, and it is judged on the whole variety of circumstances.

§ Mr. Rankin
But, Sir, if I may continue, if the Closure operates as you have indicated, there will be no vote on the Closure at the point in time when it is put. The vote will not take place until later in the day. Is that not an unusual circumstance?

§ Mr. Speaker
It is a new circumstance. It is part of a Sessional Order which the House carried and which I have to administer. We cannot comment on it now.

Several Hon.
Members rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The House has a lot of business to do. I hope that I shall not be addressed on points of order unless they are very serious.

§ Mr. Shinwell
Could I move next business, Sir?

§ Mr. Speaker
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. It is a suggestion which he might put to the Select Committee on Procedure.

§ Sir J. Langford-Holt
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think it right that the House should clearly understand what the procedure is in morning sittings. In the event of the Chair going no further than to accept the Motion for the Closure—nothing else—no Division can then take place. What happens to the business under discussion? Does it stop or does it go on?

§ Mr. Speaker
We cannot traverse the whole debate we had on the Sessional Order which the House discussed on 14th December last and carried. It involves all kinds of new complications, but we cannot discuss them under the guise of points of order.

§ Mr. John Hall
To clarify the matter for simple minds such as mine, Mr. Speaker, do I gather that what you are really saying is that you are very unlikely to accept a Motion for the Closure in a morning sitting?

§ Mr. Speaker
The hon. Gentleman has no right to assume that.

§ Mr. English
In your reply to the hon. Member for Orpington, Mr. Speaker, whilst addressing your mind to the question of the Closure, you may have unwittingly perpetuated a misapprehension which is in the minds of many hon. 518 Members. Would you care to make clear to the House that the Standing Order does not preclude the possibility of all Divisions taking place in the morning, but only of most of them?

§ Mr. Speaker
It is all Divisions; it is impossible to take a Division in the morning sitting. This discussion is tiresome because we have debated this matter. What the House is expecting me to do now is to explain again and again the Sessional Order which the House has carried. If any matter comes to the Question in the morning sitting and a Division is called for, that Division takes place at the end of the afternoon's session.

§ Sir J. Rodgers
For the purposes of clarification, Mr. Speaker, could you tell us whether, if the occupant of the Chair should accept a Motion for the Closure, the debate then stops on that particular subject? I think the House is entitled to your view. Does it stop at the moment of acceptance, even though a vote does not take place until the evening?

§ Mr. Speaker
The simple answer is, "Yes". But that is the kind of question one should not put to the Chair as a point of order. All these matters are dealt with in a Sessional Order which the House has carried by a majority.
The Clerk will now proceed to read the Orders of the Day.