§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeMay I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business of the House for next week—I mean, the week after the Recess?
§ The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Bowden)I was about to say to the right hon. Gentleman, "None, Sir".
The business for the first week after the Whitsun Adjournment will be as follows:
§ MONDAY, 14TH JUNE—Supply [19th Allotted Day]: Committee.
§ Motion to move Mr. Speaker out of the Chair, when a debate will arise on an Amendment to take note of the Seventh Report from the Estimates Committee in Session 1963–64, on the Forestry Commission, and the Special Report relating thereto.
§ Lords Amendments to the Law Commissions Bill. Motions on the Silo Subsidies Schemes, and on the Calf Subsidies Scheme.
§ TUESDAY, 15TH JUNE, and WEDNESDAY, 16TH JUNE—We shall continue with the Committee stage of the Finance (No. 2) Bill.
§ THURSDAY, 17TH JUNE—Remaining stages of the Highlands and Islands Development (Scotland) Bill.
§ FRIDAY, 18TH JUNE—Private Members' Bills.
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeThe Leader of the House will be aware of the strong feeling on both sides of the House that we should debate the position in South-East Asia, and I think that several hon. Members would also like to debate the affairs of Dominica. The right hon. Gentleman has not been able to fit in that debate for the week after the Recess. Can he say whether he will be able to do so in the week following that?
§ Mr. BowdenI have given a promise to the House that we will have a debate on foreign affairs after the Whitsun Recess. I think that the actual time tabling should be left to the usual channels. As requested by the House, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is making a statement today.
§ Mr. Francis Noel-BakerCan my right hon. Friend say when we shall have time for a debate on transport, and, in particular, on the Report of the British Railways Board? If it is difficult to give Government time, will he make representations through the usual channels for a Supply day, in view of the song and dance of the Opposition about certain aspects of transport policy, in extraordinary contrast to their attitude when the right hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples) was Minister of Transport?
§ Mr. BowdenIt would be rather quicker if the Opposition decided to use a Supply day, when I would agree, but, as far as I can remember, there is one nationalised industry day left.
§ Mr. Selwyn LloydMay I press the right hon. Gentleman on the question raised by his hon. Friends the Members for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele) and for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton)? There is a feeling in the House—and we do not want this to be a party matter at all—that there is something seriously wrong with the way in which we manage our business at Question Time. Could we not have an urgent debate on this matter? Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake that we will do so very soon after we come back after Whitsun?
§ Mr. BowdenI have already promised that we shall have a debate on the Second Report of the Select Committee on Procedure on Questions, but we must get on with some legislation first. [Laughter.] I am sure that the House will agree with some of us, if not the majority, that we would like some Summer Recess. We have the Finance Bill to complete. If hon. Members want a Summer Recess, it will be necessary to get on with some legislation.
However, I appreciate the importance of Questions and the Government will be bringing proposals before the House on this subject. If I may be allowed a personal word, whatever the House does as a House, and whatever new Standing Orders we pass, there will be no effect whatever unless hon. Members themselves take some action.
§ Mr. ShinwellCan my right hon. Friend tell the House whether he contemplates any measures to curtail discussion of the Finance Bill, particularly in view of the tirades to which we have to listen from the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath)?
§ Mr. BowdenThere is already machinery in our Standing Orders for dealing with such a situation, of course, but I have no intention of using it at present.
§ Mr. GardnerIs the Leader of the House aware of the dissatisfaction on both sides of the House with the way 1960 in which the Government caused the curtailment of an important debate on Commonwealth affairs this week by at least an hour by allowing other lengthy business to precede that debate? Can he make amends by saying that he will allow time for a debate, before the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' conference, on the possibility of creating a supreme court of appeal for the Commonwealth, the subject of a Motion which has been signed by more than 100 Members?
[That this House would welcome the setting up of a Supreme Commonwealth Court of Appeal to deal as a final court of appeal with disputes between Commonwealth countries and appeals from Commonwealth courts and urges Her Majesty's Government at the forthcoming Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference to raise as a matter of urgency the creation of such a court.]
§ Mr. BowdenIt would have been quite in order to raise this subject in Tuesday's debate on the Commonwealth, a debate which was at the request of the Opposition and which took place before the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' conference, as requested. I cannot promise a further debate.
§ Mr. William HamiltonMay I press my right hon. Friend to give us a date to debate the problem of Question Time, preferably at a morning sitting? This would not conflict with the Government's legislative programme and would be convenient to hon. Members on this side of the House. Can he say whether he will appeal to the Opposition to settle their leadership question, because an element of neurosis keeps creeping into the attitude of the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath)?
§ Mr. SpeakerWe must confine business questions to business.
§ Sir K. PickthornMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House whether he has seen a Motion, which, in view of the haste, I have had to hand in without showing it to people and which is now on the Table, and whether, in view of that Motion, he will now tell us on which day of the first week after Whitsun he will allow us to debate it?
May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether, in order that the House can understand 1961 how urgent it is, I may read out the Motion?
§ Mr. SpeakerTo make the right hon. Gentleman's question intelligible to those of us who do not have secret sight, I think that it would be helpful if he were to do so.
§ Sir K. PickthornThe Motion is as follows:
That this House, recognising the normal duty of the Chair to give a casting vote when the voices are equal, declares that proposals for taxation of the people cannot be initiated by this means without infringing the constitutional rights of the Commons and that the proceedings on postponed Clause 42 of the Finance Bill on 2nd June, 1965, are null and void.
§ Mr. ShinwellOn a point of order. Without expressing any view on the merits or otherwise of the right hon. Gentleman's submission, are we to understand that if he is permitted to read a Motion, as he has, any hon. Member may perform the same operation?
§ Mr. SpeakerNo. I should not allow it in any normal circumstances. The abnormal circumstances were that, in view of the lateness of which the right hon. Gentleman spoke, I could not tell personally what it was all about and I wanted to know.
§ Mr. BowdenMay I ask your protection on this, Mr. Speaker? I already have to bear in mind 231 early day Motions. If, during the exchanges on business on Thursday, I am expected also to answer half-a-dozen questions on Motions which are read out, and of which I have had no previous notice, my position will become almost impossible. Part of the right hon. Gentleman's Motion seemed to be a reflection on the Chair and it is certainly not within the function of the Leader of the House to comment on the action of the Chair and as to whether its vote was correctly cast.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe right hon. Gentleman shall have all my protection and respect. Everybody will appreciate his difficulties at this moment, in the same way as the right hon. Member for Carlton (Sir K. Pickthorn) did. No doubt we shall have leisure to look at this matter and consider it now that it is on the Order Paper.
§ Mr. Selwyn LloydWould not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the number of Motions on the Order Paper is an indication of the highly inflationary situation in which we live? My right hon. Friend the Member for Carlton (Sir K. Pickthorn) was not asking for a comment; he was asking that the matter might be debated.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. We must get on.
§ Mr. OrmeNoting the fact that two more days are to be spent on discussing the Finance Bill during the week that we come back, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware that many Members, particularly new Members, are tired of and fed up with the archaic system by which the House is run, and has been run for about 700 years, and that there is an urgent need for modernisation? Will he consider urgently the possibility of sending the next Finance Bill to a Committee upstairs?
§ Mr. SpeakerWe cannot send the next Finance Bill upstairs in the business for the week after next.
§ Mr. LubbockMay I ask the Leader of the House to deal with that part of the question asked by the right hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) which was in order? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the number of Motions on the Order Paper, and the number of questions addressed to him during the discussion on business every Thursday, are an indication of the strong feelings in the House that many matters which ought to be raised are not being debated? Will he therefore consider sittings of the House on Wednesday mornings, now that the Murder (Abolition of Death Penalty) Bill has been dealt with?
§ Mr. BowdenOn the question of morning sittings, I have said previously that I would not take any action unless it was the wish of the House that I should. If the House wished to continue to sit on Wednesday or Tuesday mornings, we would do so.
§ Mr. Hector HughesI notice that on Thursday of the week after next the proposed subject for debate is the Highland and Islands Development (Scotland) Bill. May I ask my right hon. Friend to substitute for that a more general 1963 debate on trade, industry, and commerce, in north-east Scotland which has not been debated in this House for a considerable time but which needs urgent consideration?
§ Mr. BowdenI have no doubt that my hon. and learned Friend would like to debate north-east Scotland, but at present we are concerned with getting the Highlands and Islands legislation through the House.
§ Commander CourtneyCan the Leader of the House say what are the Government's intentions with regard to the Anchors and Chain Cables Bill? I ask this because last Wednesday the Committee was unable to get a quorum due to the absence of three out of the five Socialist sponsors of the Bill.
§ Mr. BowdenThis is a small but important Bill. I will consider the matter.
§ Mr. LiptonIn connection with the further progress which most hon. Members want to make with the Finance Bill, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether it has come to his knowledge that a number of hon. Gentlemen opposite are seriously perturbed by the possibility that we shall still be discussing the Committee stage of the Finance Bill on the days of the Royal Ascot meeting? May we have an assurance that steps will be taken, through the usual channels, to ensure that the Committee stage of the Bill is disposed of before Royal Ascot for the benefit of a number of hon. Gentlemen opposite?
§ Mr. BowdenWhatever the reason may be, I should like to see the Committee stage of the Bill disposed of quickly.
§ Sir K. PickthornMr. Speaker—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. We have a great deal of work to do, and I think that we had better keep quiet to allow progress to be made.
§ Sir K. PickthornMr. Speaker, as the Leader of the House has said that he heard only part of my Motion I think that I should tell the House that he has had a copy of it in his hand for an hour. [HON. MEMBERS: "0h."] As the Leader of the House has accused me of casting 1964 reflections on the Chair, I think that I must be permitted to say—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The right hon. Gentleman can ask for time for a discussion of his Motion. I think that that might be said to have already been answered, in a negative sense. We cannot have a second reading of the matter now.
§ Mr. BowdenI do not want to prolong the discussions on business, but I think that it should be made clear that, whatever the right hon. Gentleman may have done with a copy of his Motion, I certainly have not received it.
§ Sir K. PickthornI apologise to the right hon. Gentleman.
§ Mr. SpeakerThat shows how a breakdown in communications delays progress with business questions.
Mr. loan L. EvansIn view of the general demand for morning sittings, will the Leader of the House consider confining morning sittings to Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, as there are many hon. Members who have to travel long distances to get to the House on Monday?
§ Sir J. Langford-HoltHas the attention of the Leader of the House been drawn to a Motion urging Her Majesty's Government to take immediate legislative action with regard to public service and Armed Forces pensions, in view of the fact that a Motion was signed in exactly the same terms in the last Parliament by 100 of his supporters, including four members of the Cabinet and 21 Members of the present Administration?
§ [That this House, recognising the hardship of public service pensioners and those retired from the armed forces, and especially of the older pensioners in these groups whose pensions bear no relation to similar pensions now obtaining in the public service and the armed forces, urges Her Majesty's Government to introduce special provisions to improve such pensions.]
§ Mr. BowdenI seem to recall it, even during this week. My right hon. Friend has said that this matter is under review, which has been said before. I have promised that as soon as the review is complete a statement will be made, and probably a debate will take place on it.
§ Mr. RidsdaleMay I press the Leader of the House for an early debate on public service and Armed Forces pensions, particularly as the Prime Minister has refused to answer Questions addressed to him on this?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. We must get on with business.