HC Deb 16 April 1964 vol 693 cc601-5
The Prime Minister

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement about penal policy.

In 1959, the Government published a White Paper, Penal Practice in a Changing Society, which discussed the greatly increased volume of post-war crime and the measures taken to deal with it, and forecast developments in the penal system and building programme over the next few years. It emphasised the need to intensify research into crime and its causes, and into the effectiveness of methods of treatment. It acknowledged that existing penal practice had developed piecemeal and empirically over a long period in response to experience and the pressure of current problems; and it looked forward to a time when, with growing knowledge, it would be possible to conduct a fundamental review of penal methods and of the philosophy on which they are based.

The Government are today publishing a White Paper, The War Against Crime in England and Wales, which is a survey of the progress made in this field since 1959. Copies of the White Paper will he in the Vote Office at four o'clock.

In the light of that progress, the Government have decided that the time has now come for the fundamental review foreshadowed in 1959, and that its importance is such that it should be carried out by a Royal Commission. I have, therefore, recommended to the Queen, and Her Majesty has been pleased to approve, the setting up of a Royal Commission, with the following terms of reference: In the light of modern knowledge of crime and its causes and of modern penal practice here and abroad, to re-examine the concepts and purposes which should underlie the punishment and treatment of offenders in England and Wales; to report how far they are realised by the penalties and methods of treatment available to the courts, and whether any changes in these, or in the arrangements and responsibility for selecting the sentences to be imposed on particular offenders, are desirable: to review the work of the services and institutions dealing with offenders and the responsibility for their administration: and to make recommendations. I will announce later the names of the chairman and members.

It is the Government's intention to ask the Royal Commission to give first priority, in its survey, to offenders under 21 and their treatment.

Mr. G. Brown

May I, on behalf of this side of the House, welcome the setting up of the Royal Commission? Will the Prime Minister note that it has been delayed for quite a long time, that there a re various other parts of our legal code and legal practice in which reforms are generally agreed to be overdue and necessary, and that in welcoming this proposal it must not be taken that it inhibits any incoming Government in malting reforms in those parts?

The Prime Minister

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I do not anticipate any incoming Government other than the one that I lead. That is a different matter.

Sir T. Moore

I think that we are all agreed in welcoming the setting up of a Royal Commission on a subject about which everyone has been deeply worried for a long time. My right hon. Friend mentioned specifically England and Wales. While admitting that there is very little crime in Scotland, there is some, and I am wondering why my right hon. Friend omitted Scotland in his review of the Royal Commission's duties.

The Prime Minister

I think that the answer to my hon. Friend is that a large part of the Royal Commission's field has already been covered by what is called Lord Kilbrandon's Committee for Scotland This will not prevent any finding of the Royal Commission for England and Wales from being adapted for Scotland if that is thought to be necessary.

Mr. Woodburn

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the terms of reference do not exclude the prevention of crime? They seem to deal with the punishment of crime and especially with people under 21. Is it not very important to consider how to prevent crime, and, since the punishment of juveniles is very often considered to be a means of training them to be good citizens, should it not be considered whether educational Departments should be brought into the whole question of the prevention of crime and of educating people to be good citizens?

The Prime Minister

I think that the terms of reference include an inquiry into the causes of crime. This may lead the Royal Commission to make recommendations. The field is very wide.

Miss Bacon

When the right hon. Gentleman says that he will ask the Royal Commission to give priority to those under 21 years of age, does he mean that he will suggest to it that it should issue an early interim report on this question?

The Prime Minister

Obviously, as the hon. Lady knows, I cannot say how early this would be, but this might be a possibility. It is for the Royal Commission to decide whether it will be able to do this.

Mr. C. Royle

In view of the fact that the deliberations of Royal Commissions in general take a very long time, and since this matter is very urgent, will the Prime Minister impress on the chairman of the Royal Commission, when he is selected, the desirability of reporting as early as possible?

The Prime Minister

Yes, Sir.

Mr. Lubbock

Noting that the terms of reference of the Royal Commission include the treatment of offenders, may I ask the Prime Minister whether this means that the Royal Commission will be required to review the Report of Mr. Justice Barry's committee on aftercare? Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether any legislation resulting from Mr. Justice Barry's recommendations is intended for this Parliament as foreshadowed by the Home Secretary on 3rd December, and whether the Royal Commission will consider the very important subject of workshop space in prisons?

The Prime Minister

The answer to the last part of the hon. Gentleman's question is "Yes". In answer to the earlier part, we intend to implement the report, but not in this Parliament.

Mr. Hale

Will the Prime Minister say—one hears these words without fully appreciating them—whether the terms of reference of the Royal Commission are sufficiently wide to make possible consideration of the design and location of modern prisons; the disposal of older prisons; the encouragement of the classification of prisoners on the basis of the possibility of redemption; the question of the continued use of prisons for what is virtually imprisonment for debt; and the unfortunate use of penal institutions for the reception of people suffering from mental ill health?

The Prime Minister

The hon. Member has put quite a number of questions into one supplementary. The answer to all his questions, as far as I have been able to understand them, is "Yes".

Mr. G. Brown

The terms of reference read out by the right hon. Gentleman seem to limit the Royal Commission to re-examining "the concepts and purposes which should underlie the punishment and treatment of offenders…; to report how far they are realised by the penalties and methods of treatment available to the courts." Does the right hon. Gentleman say that those terms of reference are intended to lead the Royal Commission into inquiring into the causes of crime?

The Prime Minister

If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the early part of my statement, he wilt see that the Royal Commission must take into account the causes of crime.

Mr. Brown

There are two different things. The Royal Commission is asked, "In the light of modern knowledge" to inquire into "the punishment and treatment of" crime. It is not asked, by these terms of reference, to inquire into the causes of crime.

The Prime Minister

I do not think that there is any conflict here. I will read the words again: It emphasised the need to intensify research into crime and its causes, and into the effectiveness of methods of treatment. This is generally covered. The terms of reference are based on the 1959 Government White Paper, which said that we should have a comprehensive review of these questions.

Mr. Brown

This is becoming impossible. The Prime Minister read out the terms of reference of the Royal Commission and he is now saying that they have some other terms of reference. All we know and all that the Royal Commission will know will be the terms of reference which it will have, which include the words "In the light of modern knowledge of crime…to re-examine the concepts and purposes which should underlie the punishment and treatment of offenders in England and Wales".

If the Prime Minister wants the Royal Commission to have some other terms of reference to which he has referred, he should have included them in the terms of reference which he read out.

The prime Minister

With respect, the right lion. Gentleman is making heavy weather about nothing at all. I do not want to weary the House, but perhaps it will be of assistance if I read the first part of the terms of reference: In the light of modern knowledge of crime and its causes and of modern penal practice here and abroad, to re-examine the concepts and purposes which should underlie the punishment and treatment of offenders… I should have thought that that gave the Royal Commission very wide terms of reference indeed.

Several Hon. Members rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. Without a Question we cannot debate the matter now.