HC Deb 10 April 1963 vol 675 cc1279-84
Mr. H. Wilson

May I ask the Leader of the House to state the business of the House for the week after the Recess?

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod)

Yes, Sir. The business for the first week after the Recess will be as follows—

TUESDAY, 23RD APRIL.—Second Reading of the Water Resources Bill [Lords], and Committee stage of the Money Resolution.

Remaining stages of the Town and Country Planning Bill.

WEDNESDAY, 24TH APRIL.—Remaining stages of the Local Government (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Bill.

Second Reading of the Local Employment Bill, and Committee stage of the Money Resolution.

THURSDAY, 25TH APRIL.—Second Reading of the Remuneration of Teachers Bill, and Committee stage of the Money Resolution.

Consideration of Lords Amendments to the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.

FRIDAY, 26TH APRIL.—Private Members' Motions.

MONDAY, 29TH APRIL.—The proposed business will be: Debate on the British Railways Board's Plan for the Reshaping of the Railways.

TUESDAY 30TH APRIL.—Supply [14th Allotted Day]: Committee, which it is proposed should be taken formally to allow the debate on the railways to be concluded.

Mr. H. Wilson

I take it the right hon. Gentleman understands that if we debate the Beeching Report many of us will want to discuss not merely the narrow parts of the Report itself, but the wider aspects of transport and the considerations of transport policy which has brought about this Report?

Mr. Macleod

Yes, Sir. I think that that is well understood.

Dame Irene Ward

May I ask my right hon. Friend whether the Minister of Housing and Local Government will be making a statement on the Parliamentary controversy which took place last week, or whether Motions Nos. 117, 119 and 120 will end the matter?

[That this House deplores the action of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government in requesting the hon. Member for Blackburn to withdraw a Question on turnstiles from the Order Paper on his written undertaking that he would inform her in advance when he was ready to make a statement so that she could table her Question again, in failing to honour that undertaking, in making his statement instead in reply to the hon. Member for Tynemouth and in inviting the hon. Member for Belfast, West, to introduce a Private Member's Bill to implement the policy for which the hon. Member for Blackburn had previously pressed in a Bill for which Her Majesty's Government had refused to give facilities, and calls on the Prime Minister to ensure that an apology is made to the hon. Member for Blackburn for the dishonouring of the pledge made to her.]

[That this House reaffirms the right of individual Members to put Questions on the Order Paper and to withdraw or transfer them within the rules of order.]

[That this House regrets that the hon. Member for Blackburn did not ascertain, before making allegations to the contrary, that the hon. Member for Tynemouth had exercised her right to seek information from the Minister of Housing and Local Government on the matter of turnstiles in which she had interested herself for the National Council of Women without any request from any Minister.]

Mr. Macleod

It was my right hon. Friend's intention to make a statement to the House on that matter, and he had so drafted it, but it was not possible for the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle), who is very much concerned in this, to be present that afternoon, so, naturally, my right hon. Friend did not make the statement but wrote to the hon. Member for Blackburn instead.

Mr. Healey

Can the right hon. Gentleman find an early opportunity for the House to discuss the White Paper on the Polaris sales agreement, which will make this country wholly dependent on the United States for its deterrent for many years to come?

Mr. Macleod

Without entering into the polemics of that, clearly there is not an opportunity immediately after the Recess.

Sir G. Nicholson

I hope that my right hon. Friend will not think that I am introducing a trivial note, but will he change his phraseology in future and not refer to "Supply, which it is proposed should be taken formally"? Will he make it clear that it is open to any hon. Member to debate Supply, and that it cannot be proposed and disposed of just like that? Could my right hon. Friend perhaps say that he hopes that it will be taken formally?

Mr. Macleod

I should like to use a slightly different form of words; but am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I agree with him. Perhaps the form of words that could be used is, "if the House agrees, it might be taken formally", or something like that, which would make it clear, as one always does, that one preserves the rights of hon. Members.

Mr. G. Thomas

In view of the statement made in West Cardiff on Friday last by the Prime Minister, and which I saw in the Press, concerning the establishment of a Welsh Office, can the Leader of the House say whether we are to have an opportunity soon to discuss this question in detail?

Mr. Macleod

There will be the usual opportunity later, of course, to discuss Welsh affairs.

Mr. Lawson

Is the Leader of the House aware that in the Scottish Standing Committee, which is dealing with very difficult and complicated legislation, we are deprived of the services of the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor-General for Scotland, and that we meet without any senior Minister of the Crown being present? Will the right hon. Gentleman look into this question to see whether we can at least sometimes have the Secretary of State for Scotland present at our Committee so that we can get some authoritative advice on the legislation with which we are dealing?

Mr. Macleod

The hon. Gentleman knows that the question of Law Officers for Scotland is a problem for both sides of the House. [Laughter.] Of course it is. It has often been discussed, but, with respect, the point made by the hon. Gentleman does not arise out of the business that I have announced.

Mr. McMaster

Besides Welsh and Scottish affairs, can my right hon. Friend find an early opportunity to discuss the high rate of unemployment in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Macleod

I have no favouritism in this matter. I shall give exactly the same answer—certainly, some time.

Mr. Snow

Referring to the debate on the Beeching Report, since it is apparently not within Dr. Beeching's terms of reference to examine future transport requirements, for example, in the case of the Midlands overspill scheme, will the Minister of Housing and Local Govermnent be in attendance during the debate?

Mr. Macleod

This debate is some time ahead. We have not yet drawn up the list of speakers for the Government, but I shall take note of the point made by the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Ross

Bearing in mind the fact that the business for the week when we return includes a meeting of the Scottish Standing Committee, which is dealing with criminal justice, will the right hon. Gentleman remind the Prime Minister that he promised us that in the absence of the Law Officers matters relating to the law would be dealt with by the Secretary of State for Scotland? Would not it be a good idea if the Secretary of State for Scotland attended the Committee occasionally?

Mr. Macleod

The point is taken, but, with respect, I am dealing with the business on the Floor of the House.

Mr. Bowles

My right hon. Friend may not have drawn up the list of Government speakers for the Beeching debate, but has he drawn up the Motion, and, if so, on what is it based?

Mr. Macleod

We have not yet tabled a Motion. The debate will probably arise on a Government Motion, and it would not be surprising if there were an Amendment to it.

Sir A. V. Harvey

Prior to the debate on the Beaching proposals, will my right hon. Friend arrange with the Minister of Transport for the British Transport Commission to disclose traffic figures on the lines it is proposed to close? It is difficult to assess and debate this matter unless this information is given. Will my right hon. Friend look into this point?

Mr. Macleod

I shall certainly discuss that point with my right hon. Friend.

Mr. Willis

The right hon. Gentleman. will remember that about three or four weeks ago he promised me that he would have a word with the Secretary of State for Scotland about making an announcement on the Floor of the House concerning the future development of Scotland. Can we take it that we are now at long last to hear from the Secretary of State for Scotland, or are we not?

Mr. Macleod

The hon. Gentleman can certainly take it that I carried out my undertaking to discuss that point with my right hon. Friend.

Mr. Manuel

The recommendations of Dr. Beeching and the debate that we are to have have terrific implications for Scotland. The Secretary of State for Scotland has been making speeches on the basis of this Report. Will the Leader of the House ensure that the Secretary of State for Scotland is one of the speakers during the debate on the Report, so that he may deal with what will happen in Scotland if these recommendations are carried out?

Mr. Macleod

That point has been put to me before. We shall bear that in mind when we consider the question of Government speakers.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

When does the Leader of the House propose to make a statement on the future activities of Dr. Beeching? Is he proposing to lend him to the Ministry of Defence to cut down expenditure there?

Mr. Temple

In view of the fact that my right hon. Friend has announced the Second Reading of the Water Resources Bill, will he say whether he can find time for a debate on the Bledisloe Committee's Report on salmon and fresh water fisheries, as this Report is very much concerned with matters which will be discussed on the Water Resources

Mr. Macleod

This is a matter in which a number of hon. Members have a considerable interest, but during the period of business which I have announced, and with which the House is immediately concerned, I cannot see such a possibility.

Mr. Hector Hughes

Has the Leader of the House failed to realise that the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill is very important and will be a very imperfect piece of legislation unless he makes an effort to have in attendance at the Scottish Grand Committee either a Law Officer who represents Scotland or the Secretary of State for Scotland? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in replying to my hon. Friends he has not given any promise to secure the attendance of Ministers in order to effect this very important piece of legislation? Will he reconsider that matter and try to see that a responsible Minister is in attendance at the Scottish Grand Committee?

Mr. Macleod

Of course this is an important matter. I do not pretend that it is not. But it is not a matter that concerns business on the Floor of the House. The points which hon. Members have put to me I will, of course, take note of and discuss with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.

Sir J. Duncan

Does my right hon. Friend recall that a few weeks ago I raised the point about the absence of Law Officers from the House and asked my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister whether he would seek co-operation from right hon. Gentlemen opposite? Has there been any co-operation?