HC Deb 23 March 1960 vol 620 cc498-500
38. Mrs. Castle

asked the Minister of Defence when he proposes to increase the pay of National Service men.

Mr. Watkinson

As indicated in the Government White Paper recently issued on Service Pay and Pensions, it is not the intention to make any change in the pay of National Service officers or men.

Mrs. Castle

Does the Minister realise that we are paying these conscripts only what he has described to me as the minimum necessary during a limited period of compulsory Government service? Further, is he aware that the National Service grants with which we eke out these minimum rates in cases of domestic hardship work out on an average at only £12 to £13 per man for the current financial year, according to the figures which the Minister himself has given me? Can he be surprised that National Service men feel that, because they are conscripts, the Government are getting them on the cheap?

Mr. Watkinson

I do not take that view, and I think it puts the matter more into proportion if we remember that the grants which the hon. Lady has just mentioned will cost this year £1,800,000, and that is six times what they were in 1951–52 when the strength of National Service men was twice its current level. I think, therefore, that they are being administered with some generosity.

Mr. Dodds

Will the Minister bear in mind that there are many National Service men who have been deferred up to the age of 26 and they are in a particularly difficult situation? Does he not realise that the amount he has mentioned as being paid for twelve months equals the amount which was lost on two orders for Army boots?

Mr. Watkinson

I do not disagree that there may be difficult cases, particularly among men who have been deferred for long periods. I would only say that, if there are special cases, it is certainly my wish that we should help them, if possible.

40. Mr. Janner

asked the Minister of Defence if he will consider raising the pay of National Service men especially that of the skilled tradesman.

Mr. Watkinson

I must apologise to the House. This Question was to be answered with Question No. 38. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to have it answered again.

As indicated in the Government White Paper recently issued on Service Pay and Pensions, it is not the intention to make any change in the pay of National Service officers or men.

Mr. Janner

Not only was the Answer unsatisfactory but the answers to the supplementary questions seem to have been even more unsatisfactory. Does the Minister realise that men who go into the Services expect to be paid a proper rate for the services that they render in a way similar to the way they would be paid in their ordinary civilian occupations? Is it not grossly unfair, especially in the case of skilled people, that their services should be used without payment? Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the matter in order to give complete satisfaction to the men who are serving in our Forces?

Mr. Watkinson

I have already said that I quite accept that, towards the end of National Service, when men, some of whom are 25 or more, are being called up, there may be specially hard cases. It is my wish to help them if possible.

Mr. Ross

Does not the fact that we have fewer National Service men and that we are paying more in National Service grants show the inadequacy of the pay, since National Service men have to resort more and more to National Assistance for help? Will the right hon. Gentleman look at the matter again?

Mr. Watkinson

I will look at any special case.

Mr. Janner

Will the Minister indicate to the country how he proposes to implement the remark that he made that he will deal with cases of skilled people?

Mr. Watkinson

I did not say that at all. I said that if there were any specially hard cases I would endeavour to meet them.