HC Deb 04 July 1950 vol 477 cc224-7
18. General Sir George Jeffreys

asked the Secretary of State for War what is the establishment of Regular soldiers which he hopes will eventually be attained; by how many Regulars is the Army at present short of that establishment; and what is the estimated number of Regular recruits that will in future be required annually in order to maintain that establishment after it has been reached.

Mr. M. Stewart

The Army is not divided into separate establishments for Regulars and National Service men. It is the aim of my right hon. Friend to raise the present strength of Regulars as high as is practicable.

Sir G. Jeffreys

Does that mean that the War Office have no policy as regards an establishment of Regulars—that they have so far departed from previous policy that there is no establishment—and that they can only hope to get as many as possible?

Mr. Stewart

No, Sir. It means that it is not practicable, or indeed sensible, to try to give figures for an establishment of Regulars with the Army, as it is at present composed both of Regulars and National Service men. What the position would be if the Army were composed entirely of Regulars, is a different and hypothetical question.

Mr. Eden

Is not there any kind of target for Regular recruiting at which the Government are aiming?

Mr. Stewart

The target for Regular recruiting is a different matter from an establishment of Regular soldiers. On the question of a target for Regular recruiting, I do not think it would be sensible to say more than that we are anxious to increase Regular recruiting as rapidly as we can.

Mr. Eden

Will not the hon. Gentleman agree that if he has an establishment towards which he is working, that is the same as the target he wants to reach?

Mr. Stewart

The words "target" and "establishment" are really not interchangeable in this context. We were asked in this Question for an establishment of Regulars. I pointed out that, as matters stand now, a figure of that kind does not exist. On the question which the right hon. Gentleman asked about the target for recruiting, I do not think that it would be sensible to announce a specific target figure at present. The position is that we want to increase Regular recruiting by every means.

Mr. Eden

Does not the hon. Gentleman think that if the country knew the figure that the Government wish to reach, it would be something to work to, instead of saying indefinitely that the Government just want a few more Regulars?

Colonel Gomme-Duncan

In view of the Minister's really astonishing reply, is not it a fact that the Treasury insist on establishments, particularly when the Regulars are on a slightly different footing from National Service men in the matter of pay?

Mr. Stewart

No. There is not a separate establishment of Regular and of National Service soldiers, as I have already pointed out.

Sir G. Jeffreys

Does the hon. Gentleman remember that the Secretary of State, when speaking on the Army Estimates, deplored the shortage of Regulars and said that it was impossible to get on with training or to organise the Army as it should be organised as long as there was this shortage? Does his reply today mean that he is simply chancing it—if we get more Regulars so much the better, but if we do not, it cannot be helped?

Mr. Stewart

No. My reply neither was, nor meant, that. It conforms entirely with what my right hon. Friend said on the occasion referred to. I have emphasised that we are anxious to increase the number of Regulars, and are taking, as the House knows, a good many steps to that end.

19. Sir G. Jeffreys

asked the Secretary of State for War what was the number of men enlisted for Regular Service during the first six months of this year; what was the number so enlisted during the corresponding period of 1949; and whether he will state the total number of Regulars enlisted in 1949 and the total number which he hopes to enlist this year.

Mr. M. Stewart

From 1st January to 31st May, 8,468 men enlisted for Regular service in the Army. The corresponding figure for 1949 was 12,260 and the total for 1949 was 23,769. On 20th March, my right hon. Friend expressed the hope that 20,000 men would enlist annually.

Sir G. Jeffreys

Does the hon. Gentleman consider, in view of the figures which he has just given, that there is any reasonable chance of attaining that number this year?

Mr. Stewart

It is clear that it will be difficult to reach that number this year, but I do not think that it would be wise to put forward a revised estimate at the moment.

Mr. A. R. W. Low

Will not it be quite impossible to reach that number this year unless the Government hurry up and announce the steps they are taking, which they have not yet announced at all?

Mr. Stewart

I do not think that we can say at this stage that it is impossible.

Mr. Driberg

Is my hon. Friend aware that all these Questions would have been quite unnecessary, and that he would have no difficulty in getting all the Regulars necessary, if only there were two million unemployed?

Mr. Stewart

Yes, Sir. On that question, I have examined the figures of the number of persons endeavouring to enlist in past years, and there is a striking correlation between them and the number of persons unemployed.

Brigadier Thorp

If there is no establishment for Regulars, why is the number 20,000 chosen?

Mr. Stewart

That is not a figure of establishment. It is the figure we hope to enlist this year.

Brigadier Clarke

Does the Minister realise that this Question has nothing to do with unemployment, and that until he pays the soldier more, he will not get anyone to enlist in the Army?