HC Deb 17 March 1949 vol 462 cc2407-32

9.36 p.m.

The Minister of Transport(Mr. Barnes)

I beg to move, That the Agreement, dated 21st February, 1949, between His Majesty's Government and David MacBrayne, Limited, for the maintenance of certain transport services in the Western Highlands and Islands of Scotland, and for the conveyance of mails in connection with the said services, be approved. The purpose of this agreement is to continue for the next three years the subsidy paid to the MacBrayne shipping company for the purpose of maintaining certain transport services in the Highlands and the Western Isles. At the commencement of my remarks I wish to state that it would be impossible for anybody, no matter on what basis it may be conducted, to perform these services without some direct subsidy, and this has been recognised by successive Governments. The first subsidy and the contract that flowed from it arose on a report of a Select Committee of this House, and a contract was carried through for 10 years, commencing in 1928. At the end of that contractual period a fresh agreement was signed in 1938 between the Minister of Transport, acting for the Government Departments concerned, and MacBrayne's, and that, too, was intended to run for another 10 years; but, as hon. Members are no doubt aware, the war frustrated that contract, and during the war the Ministry of Transport requisitioned the vessels of the MacBrayne company, as they did those of other shipping concerns.

At the end of the war conditions were much too uncertain to be able to measure the elements that would enter into the cost of restoring these post-war services, so that on 30th June, 1947, I submitted to the House interim proposals, which were approved; and I later requested and secured approval to extend them to the end of 1948.

In the meantime, it has been no easy matter, in view of the difficulties of assessing cost today, to determine the conditions of a long-term contract but the interim arrangement was based upon a method which I do not favour and I do not think it obtains very substantial support from any quarter of the House, namely, a cost-plus profit basis. I was, therefore, anxious that the Department responsible for negotiating these arrangements should depart from that temporary expedient and pass to a more businesslike agreement. It is true that we have preferred a much shorter period because of the uncertainties, which I indicated, in assessing on an accurate basis the elements concerned in the cost of services today, and although I do not pretend that the company would not have preferred a longer period, nevertheless they have met my request for a short period, and this agreement covers three years, subject to renewal or to ending by six months' notice.

During the negotiations, I had to satisfy myself whether the post-war circumstances required any change from the pre-war arrangements, but I have been satisfied that the company can perform the service as economically and as efficiently as, and probably more so than, any other type of body that I could consider. It has a good deal of experience. In view of the passing of the Transport Act and the establishment of the Transport Commission, some hon. Members may feel that a better proposal on this occasion would be to charge the British Transport Commission with a responsibility of this character. However, I would state in reply to any suggestion of that description that I consider that at the present moment, and probably for some time to come, the British Transport Commission will be pre-occupied with much graver problems than carrying through these services to the Western Isles. [Interruption.] I do not consider that this is at all a matter for hilarity. It is purely a sensible business situation. The amount and the services involved should be borne in mind. Hon. Gentlemen ought to hear my arguments completed before making comments. Perhaps they are not aware of the fact that the British Transport Commission own 49 per cent. of the share capital of this concern, and that, as part of this arrangement, the Ministry of Transport appoints a director to the company, and a very good director, too, in the person of Sir Hector McNeill, the Lord Provost of Glasgow.

This is a peculiar problem, however, and I am merely submitting an obvious and commonsense fact when I state that, when examining the problem of change, any Minister occupying my position would have to take into consideration that a service of this kind is better if it is built up on the long experience of those who have been associated with it. Hon. Members should not overlook the fact that tins body has never been able to run this service successfully on its own; it has always had to come to the State for a subsidy, and before the war the subsidy amounted to £60,000 a year.

Lieut.-Colonel Elliot (Scottish Universities)

For carrying the mails?

Mr. Barnes

No. the sum for carrying the mails in this contract is only £42,000. The total subsidy—if the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will listen to my remarks—amounts to £240,000 The subsidy which the Government are proposing today is four times the subsidy paid before the war, namely, £60,000. So, looked at on the basis of being able to perform a service on their own strength and capacity there is nothing in which hon. Members can find any satisfaction or pride.

There was a good deal of ridicule on the other side of the House when I was dealing with the purely business problem of whether the State paid nearly a quarter of a million pounds in subsidy to a public corporation or gave this large sum of public money to a public company. I submit that no person occupying the position of a Minister of State, and having to decide whether a grant of this kind should be made to a private company, should overlook the desirability or otherwise of charging with that task a body, on which Parliament has recently imposed certain responsibilities.

I intended to go on to explain that eventually I come down on the side of continuing this subsidy to MacBraynes, large as it is, expensive as it is compared with pre-war, because I am satisfied, under the peculiar circumstances prevailing in that area. that there is no other company which could do the job better than they are doing at the present moment.

One of the reasons why the subsidy has increased considerably in proportion to what it was before the war is that under this agreement there has been a considerable expansion in the services provided. Recently the MacBrayne Company has taken over the McCallum-Orme Shipping Company and will now be responsible for carrying out their services which formerly operated at a loss. The Company has already placed an order with the Ardrossan Dockyard Company for a new cargo ship, to supplement their fleet. They have purchased a further cargo vessel which they hope to have in service at the end of this month. From 28th March there will be a considerably improved service to Colonsay; instead of one call a week, there will be a service four times a week in summer from Colonsay to Islay—[Interruption.s] Hon. Members must be sympathetic to the fact that a Cockney is moving this Motion tonight, and I think my Scottish Friends will be more satisfied about getting the money than about any accuracy in my Scottish pronunciation. As I have said, this service will operate four times a week in summer and twice a week in winter. The company has extended its fleet considerably but I do not think I need go into details now.

My main responsibility to the House is to explain the financial arrangements between the Ministry and the company. There is inserted in the agreement an arrangement which we consider will be an inducement to the company to run the service as efficiently as possible. Apart from the £240,000 direct subsidy, public funds will bear or receive one-half of the first £15,000 of any deficiency or profit and the whole of any further deficiency or profit, as the case may be. If there is a surplus profit of up to £15,000—after the 3½ per cent. interest on the capital of the company, or £25,000, which represents their profit elesment, whichever is the larger—has been met, the company and the Ministry of Transport will each take half of the first £15,000 additional profit. If there is a loss of £15,000 below those figures, then, again, the Ministry and the company will bear half each.

The net effect of this arrangement is a financial inducement to the company to exert every effort towards economy, and works out something like this. Under this arrangement it would be possible for the company to pay as much as 4½ per cent. on their capital employed in the undertaking. On the other hand, if they fail to make a success of the arrangement, their rate of interest, as far as it is ultimately guaranteed by this arrangement, could fall to 2½ per cent. Therefore, whether their shareholders receive 2½ per cent. or 4½ per cent. on the capital employed depends very largely on the exertions which the company make. I consider this to be a very desirable inducement to efficiency and economy.

With regard to fares and charges, I would remind hon. Members that this subsidy is absorbed in the reduction of passenger fares and cargo rates. It is true that in recent times increases in rates and fares have been imposed to the extent of 55 per cent. above the rates in operation at the outbreak of war. The general run of fares and cargo rates on these services, however, works out at only roughly about one-third of the rates in operation on cross-Channel steamers, and are much less than the current transports rates between this country and Ireland. So when hon. Members are thinking in terms of the extent of the subsidy they should bear in mind that it goes not only for the purpose of carrying His Majesty's mails, but in directly benefiting the citizens of these islands and facilitating traffic between the islands and the mainland.

I have had tonight to present the case for the agreement I have negotiated with the company, but I have not considered that because I have justified that agreement I should assume the position of defending the MacBrayne Shipping Company. What I wish to make plain is that, seeking a transport agency to do this job, I can see no instrument to which I could turn at present that would represent a less subsidy figure than I am proposing tonight. Whatever hon. Members may, or may not, feel about an issue of that description, I do not want any hon. Member to overlook the fact that to run a service under a subsidy—and anybody would need to have a subsidy —is liable to a type and strength of criticism not normally directed to undertakings working under fair competitive trading conditions. That ought to be taken into consideration when one is examining or judging the comparable efficiency, or otherwise, of this company.

They are doing a very essential piece of work in a very difficult area of Scotland. I think I can say without hesitation that, our experience of this company—which runs over roughly 30 years—is that those who navigate these ships have and must of necessity have a very high standard of navigational skill. The conditions in this part of our islands require a good deal of courage, energy, steadiness and effort to perform these tasks. Therefore, having decided that they are the best body at the moment, I think it only right that the House, whether they care to praise or criticise this agreement, should at least acknowledge that, under the circumstances, this company and its staff are doing a fairly good job in a very difficult area.

9.59 p.m.

Major McCallum (Argyll)

I was not quite clear from what the right hon. Gentleman said with what levity he was charging my hon. Friends on this side of the House. Was it that he considered the possibility of handing over this service to the Transport Commission, or that he had decided that it should be retained by the MacBrayne Company? I am sure that no hon. Member on this side, or in any part of the House, treats this matter of the steamship services on the West Coast of Scotland as a matter of levity. When the Minister said just now that the masters and navigators of these vessels were navigating in dangerous waters, it was very much an understatement. They are probably the most dangerous waters. at any rate in the Northern Hemisphere, around the coasts of Europe.

s It is now nearly two years since we debated the last agreement with the same company. At that time we were considering an agreement granting a subsidy to the company of £128,000, slightly less than half the sum which is in question tonight, and as the Minister said, four times the amount of the subsidy which was drawn by the company in 1939. I rather gathered from the Minister that he seemed to think that the necessity for that enormously increased subsidy was the fault of the management of this private enterprise firm. Surely it is the ever-increasing rise in the cost of everything that brings about this necessity of granting this much higher amount?

The steamer service to the West Highlands and Islands is one which cannot be compared with any other competitive steamship service run by a British concern because it is really a social service which is run to serve sparsely populated islands. Such a service is bound to be expensive. The mere fact of having to run these ships for a few hundred people on various islands cannot be otherwise than expensive no matter what concern tries to run them. The needs of these areas are as great as ever, possibly more so, for it is true to say from the evidence of the latest figures issued in Edinburgh that the population of the Highlands and Islands is at last very slightly on the increase. As the increase which we hope to see develop to much greater proportions comes about so will the demand on these services become greater. We look forward to the day which I am afraid I shall not live to see when these steamer services will be a paying concern because there will be such a volume of traffic on them, but the movement which has begun in the last year or two is at any rate all to the good.

I wish to say one or two things about these services included in this Agreement. I was extremely glad to hear from the Minister the announcement which we have for many months been waiting to hear of the sailing of the "Lochiel" from Port Askaig in Islay to Colonsay four times a week in summer and twice a week in winter, I am glad to say. I have pressed for that for many years. We were told that it was impossible, dangerous, that it could not be done, that the Board of Trade would not allow it. I give the Minister my heartfelt gratitude on his at last having decided that it can be done. I am sure he will be accorded the utmost gratitude of the inhabitants of the Isle of Colonsay.

In the last week or two various hon. Members and Ministers have had meetings with the company in respect of these various services. Those of us who represent the areas served by the company have put forward our complaints, and the company have themselves done their best to meet us. I know that it is quite true that the claim has been put forward that this winter from last November until now has, from the point of view of shipping, been the worst in living memory. We know that in such circumstances the company cannot always keep up to schedule with their services.

I am also sure that the Minister will appreciate that if he was living on one of these islands, and if the boat did not come and leave his mail or rations, he would feel a little sore about it no matter what the weather was like. He will not be surprised therefore if through the representatives of this House he has received what might be thought to be unreasonable complaints, but when the circumstances are brought to the minds of those constituents I think they realise that even McBrayne cannot deal with the weather. We feel, even in spite of the great importance that has been drawn to this service in the last few weeks there are still a few items on the administrative side which could yet be tightened up. I would only quote two services, one a cargo service to the Ross of Mull, the west end of the Island of Mull.

I was glad to hear from the Minister that, although perhaps not new, fresh cargo boats are coming into the service which will replace boats such as the "Lochshiel" which today run on that service to the Western part of the Isle of Mull. I have said some hard things about some of the ships voyaging on the services in previous Debates and I shall not repeat them, but the "Lochshiel" can be included with what I have said before. The advent of the new vessel, the "Loch Seaforth" did mean that the "Loch Ness" was able to be put on the service running out of Oban which has given a very much accelerated service. I said in a previous Debate on this subject that the result of that transfer has been a greatly improved service. I was immediately taken to task by many people living on the Islands who said there was no improvement whatsoever and that even the "Loch Ness" was slow running and late. I have explained that owing to the winter weather even the "Loch Ness" could not make it, and she is an extremely good boat. I am glad to see the McCallum Orme Company taken over. Since McBrayne's took over the company the "Dunara" and "Challenger"s have been scrapped. I only hope it will not be many more months before the "Hebrides" goes the same way. They are not fit boats for a passenger service on any service at all let alone in these Islands.

I should like to add my words in expressing admiration that we all feel, especially through this last winter, for the courage and courtesy and efficiency not only of the masters and men, but also the stewardesses on the boats. They did their job as well as anybody else. Although we may grumble at the company and the Minister we all feel admiration for the way the personnel carried out their job.

I understand that the company have a policy in future of shutting down a number of their calls to the less important ports and substituting road deliveries from a more central pier or harbour. I consider that to be a move in the right direction which will result in the speeding up of the delivery of cargoes and the like. But it does not always meet with satisfaction on the Islands or in the districts concerned. I ask the Secretary of State to give an assurance that where these sea-going services are curtailed in favour of land services the freight charges levied on goods transported will be no more than they would have been had they been carried by water. The fact that many of them are to be transferred to road services has caused anxiety in that direction.

Whenever we meet them—and I understand the motive although I do not agree with it—the MacBrayne company always say, "We cannot understand why everybody in the Highlands is not satisfied with MacBrayne's because, after all, MacBrayne's are the Highlands." It is true that they run the steamer services, many of the bus services, and that now they run this goods service by lorry. Before the war they had a holding, I think, in Scottish Airways. They had something to do with the air service. In recent months in other parts of the country we have seen developments in regard to air services.

I hope that the Secretary of State for Scotland or the Minister might be able to charge MacBrayne's with carrying out experiments with a feeder service on the West Coast between the mainland and the Islands by helicopter. I know that the Secretary of State will tell me that is impossible. I consider that it is possible for experiments to be carried out, I do not say with passengers but with mail—dummy mail if preferred. The helicopter would serve as a marvellous feeder service to the boats from the inaccessible islands to the ports which the boats can reach. This question was raised recently at a meeting in London and we were told that there was not a hope of any such development within five years. That is a defeatist outlook. Experiments with helicopters are being made by the Navy, the Army and the Post Office. Surely, the Post Office could help in the delivery of their mails by urging and perhaps assisting MacBrayne's to carry out experiments with helicopters in this area. I hope that the Minister will realise that his announcement about the Colonsay service will cause great satisfaction in a large part of my constituency.

10.12 p.m.

Mr. Malcolm MacMillan (Western Isles)

This is an occasion on which we can only say "Yes" or "No." We cannot amend. I always think it is a misfortune that before a decision is taken we are not able to suggest improvements which could be put into operation. That is not possible. Since no Amendment is possible at this stage, no improvement is feasible and obviously no advice will be taken. Therefore, we are talking round and round something which, to a large extent, has been decided already. Certain things can be done administratively by MacBrayne's once the contract is through and the money is voted, but it is obvious that not many fundamental changes have been provided for, nor are they to be made for at least three years.

I could not quite agree with the Minister of Transport when he said that the only agency he could conceive which could carry out these services efficiently and sufficiently well was MacBrayne's. There is the agency of the Transport Commission. At the time when the Transport Bill was before the Standing Committee, the Minister undertook to draw the attention of the Commission to the possibility—without discussing the merits of the case—of taking over the MacBrayne steamer service by agreement. One can bring a good deal of pressure to bear when one can tell the party whom one is inviting to agree that the Treasury can either starve him or permit him to live. MacBrayne's continue to flourish by the goodwill of the Treasury and Parliament.

I cannot imagine that any great difficulties would arise in the matter of achieving control and ownership of MacBrayne's. I will not press that point now because it is obvious that the Ministry of Transport and the Commission are not prepared, or are not ready, for technical and other reasons, to take over MacBrayne's and to nationalise them. They are, I believe, ripe for nationalisation, just as were our other steamer services which have been taken over and integrated with the railways into our transport services. When the proper time comes, I do not think the Minister should continue on the lines of the argument which he has advanced tonight. I think that attitude is a little defeatist when we are thinking of transport in terms of nationalisation and a nationalised service. Even now, for all the arguments he advanced, MacBrayne's is being run as a profit service, and the profit is the one thing that is guaranteed at all times, whether the weather is good or bad. I am not going to criticise the masters and crew, or, to much extent, the management, in so far as the operation of the service is concerned, because in very difficult circumstances they have continued, throughout the war and since, with a shortage of ships and various other difficulties, to give the best service that is possible under the present arrangement. But I am not going to accept that that arrangement is the best we can have.

It is time that the Minister drew the attention of the Transport Commission as forcibly as possible to the possibility of taking over that service and making it a part of the national transport services. This matter affects a wider field than MacBrayne's. It was a favourite comment of at least one director of MacBrayne's that "MacBrayne's are the Highlands and Islands," and the second comment which was generally made was "We like to do all we can to help the Highlands and Islands," which is one way of saying, "We like to help ourselves." While I wish to be fair to MacBrayne's, I do not accept that that service is by any means adequate for the people of the Western Highlands and Islands. It is far from that. What it would cost to give an adequate service I do not know, but it would probably cost considerably more money than we are allowing for in this Vote tonight.

But we have other considerations besides the financial ones. The voting of this money is in itself a recognition that the people in that area—the Western Highlands and Islands—are an integral part of the British Isles, and that it is desirable, and the Government's policy, to maintain the population in that area. In fact, that has been stated by every Government which I have either opposed or supported for the last 30 years in this House. Beyond that, I am afraid they did not carry it very much further in the matter of transport services for the Western Highlands and Islands. There have been few improvements in the Services in the last three or four years, apart from a new steamer on the Stornoway-Kyle route and the transfer of an old steamer to a route where there was an even worse one before.

Sixty years ago, the people of the Islands had a daily service. We are told that this is impossible today, because of the cost of supplying it, and I am prepared to say that MacBrayne's could not economically provide that service today. I do not think one could argue that it would be possible, but there are other responsibilities upon MacBrayne's. They are responsible for road services as well, and there we find them up against the impossibility of running adequate road services at an economic rate unless they have better roads throughout the Islands and along the West Coast of the Highlands on which their bus services run. Again, it is difficult not to feel some restraint in criticising MacBrayne's when we think of the sort of roads with which we are all familiar in the Highlands and Islands.

It is quite obvious that the MacBrayne Company intend to discontinue the local calls at some of the smaller places. They have already done that in some places. It is vitally important to the survival of some of these communities where the steamer calls have been discontinued, or will be discontinued, that there should be an adequate road service, and an adequate delivery of the goods formerly carried by MacBrayne's. That cannot be done unless the Ministry of Transport provide, or help to provide, together with the county councils, suitable roads along which a modern transport service of passengers and freight can be run.

I urge upon the Minister of Transport, upon the Secretary of State for Scotland, and upon the Treasury the vital importance of roads as well as steamer services in the Highlands and Islands. Good transport is the lifeblood of the whole economic rehabilitation of the North-West. I think that hon. Members on all sides and certainly all Highland Members have long realised this. Every Highland local authority knows that it is no use providing great schemes of hydro-electrical development if these benefits are going to be cancelled out by bad transport and costly and irregular transport. We shall never get industries into the area until the Ministry of Transport and all those responsible for transport improvement really get down to the job of providing better roads, bridges where they are necessary between the islands, and, generally, a modern transport service by sea and road as well as by air.

The hon. and gallant Member for Argyll (Major McCallum) made a very impressive speech when he first came to this House. He advocated the nationalisation of MacBrayne's. It was a most impressive speech, and one which I thought he had learned from a gramophone record which I have played so many times to this House. The record is now a bit cracked and becomes very tiresome to myself, to Ministers and to hon. Members. But the hon. and gallant Gentleman is beginning to slide back a little now that the possibility of nationalisation hovers over private enterprise. I invite him to come back to what he advocated in his maiden speech in his pristine purity as an hon. Member representing the Highlands and Islands, and before he was contaminated by the Tories.

I ask the Minister of Transport to make at least a token start with his many transport schemes, into which the MacBrayne service is to fit as well, as soon as possible. A hundred small things done now throughout the Highlands and Islands where the people are all so dependent on these services would do far more than all our long-term planning to give heart to the people, to retain the population, and to give them hope that in our time we shall see a substantial measure of economic prosperity in that area. We are not asking this simply as a gift to the Highlands and Islands for, unless we develop transport and give them a modern system of communications, we are going to have them perpetually coming to this House, dependent upon what hon Members have sometimes called the dole and charity, and perpetually dependent on partial aid from the Treasury.

Cannot we get down to a definite transport policy for the Highlands and Islands, a definite programme which we can put into operation now in order to enable them to stand on their own feet and make their contribution to the country which they would like to make? MacBraynes is certainly a vitally important service to the Highlands and Islands, and no one can seriously contemplate voting tonight against making this money available for the service.

I wish to finish by paying my tribute to the Post Office service. During the last few years, and, indeed, throughout all the years, the Post Office have done magnificent work throughout the Highlands and Islands. During the post-war period, they have tried to help in every way they could. First, they provided airway services, which we never had before, and they speeded up the mail services throughout the area. I appeal to my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench to do everything they can to help the Post Office to do what they wish to do. Everything depends on the Ministry of Transport, because as I have said, transport is the life-blood of the High, lands and Islands.

I hope the Minister will not go home content with the fact that the House has said "Aye." Tonight we must say "Aye," but I hope that my right hon. Friend will not go home thinking he has escaped once more and can rest content with that. Many people are hoping to go home tonight in the Islands, but are probably being held up at Oban, or miserably delayed at Benbecula, trying to get a steamer.

10.25 p.m.

Mr. MacLeod (Ross and Cromarty)

I do not intend to be drawn into the controversy about whether this service should have a subsidy or not, or whether it should be nationalised or not, but I recognise that this service is, to a certain extent, a social service. Before the House approves this Agreement, there is one problem of grave importance that I should like to bring to its attention and to the notice of the Government. It arises in paragraph 6 of the Schedule, the Stornaway service, and concerns the unsatisfactory state of the services and communications of the people of Apple-cross in my constituency. The Minister of Transport is aware that a grant has been refused to provide a road around the north coast of Applecross. It is my contention that some service of some kind or another must be given to the people of this region. Until such a road is provided which will link up with other roads to open up the whole of the western seaboard of Scotland, and until the Minister of Transport makes a survey to this end, we shall not have satisfactory communications in this region.

I should like to draw the attention of the House to the appalling conditions existing in Applecross under the present steamer services. Let us take the case of somebody wanting to leave Applecross for the Kyle of Lochalsh, as stated in the Schedule, between November and April. This is what he has to undergo. He leaves Applecross at 3.15 p.m. and gets into a small open ferry boat to join the steamer—that is, if the steamer calls at all. Frequently, because of the westerly gales. it has been known to pass on three consecutive days. Incidentally, it would be interesting to know on how many days this winter it has passed. Provided, then, that the passenger reaches the steamer, he must cross the Minch to Stornaway, and re-cross the Minch, to arrive at Lochalsh at 4.30 the following morning—that is, having left at 3 o'clock the previous afternoon. Now, it is a distance of only 12 miles, but a trip of 112 miles has to be undertaken, lasting more than 13 hours. Surely the Minister must agree that this is very deplorable. I wonder whether such hardships exist on any other service anywhere on the mainland?

Today, coincidentally, I received a letter from one of my constituents. This is what he says: It is clear"— he is referring at this point to roads— that these must remain as they are for the present. It is altogether most disheartening. To add to the misery of living on the north coast of Applecross, I have just heard from a resident there that the two local shops are about to close down. The owners have decided to give up the struggle to get food and other supplies against such difficulties. This means that there will be no source of supply for the coast people on the 33 miles from Toscaig to Applecross. How arc they to live, is the question uppermost in my mind at the moment. The able-bodied may be able to make for Toscaig or Applecross, but what is to become of the aged and infirm? I need not enlarge on the difficulties which I foresee for this community, but I should like you to use your influence in whatever direction you can see fit to bring the position to the notice of the powers that be, who should be keenly concerned with the people's welfare. I have written to the Secretary of State, who, I understand, has been in communication with the Minister of Transport and the Postmaster-General, proposing a service between Toscaig and Kyle. I will not weary the House with this scheme, but I should be grateful if the Minister would reassure me tonight that further consideration will be given to this scheme, and, if not, will he propose something better? I contend that unless something is done immediately to improve these services, Messrs. MacBrayne can leave out of their service from Kyle to Stornoway the call at Applecross, because if this situation continues, there will be too few people to make a service worth while.

10.31 p.m.

Mr. Randall (Clitheroe)

This Agreement apparently continues what has been going on for the last three generations—namely, the subsidy to MacBrayne's. In listening to the Debate tonight and having regard to the Debates, which I have read, of 1921, the early part of 1928 and the latter part of 1928, I must say that my right hon. Friend's statement was a very sad echo of those Debates, in which Members of my party, sitting on the Opposition benches, voiced very strongly their view that a suitable and successful service would be possible only when we brought in the experience of the workers in MacBrayne's and used it for the benefit of the country. They voiced the view that MacBrayne's should be taken over as a public service.

I want to express my disappointment that once again we are to make this subsidy to MacBrayne's. I hazard the guess that over the years the total sum that has been paid into this company must already have exceeded £1 million. I should be happy if my right hon. Friend could give the approximate total sum which has been paid to this firm. I believe the House is interested and I am sure that the public at large is interested, particularly in view of all the fuss and bother earlier this evening about a matter of £80,000. I do not believe that this subsidy has given to the Islands the economic independence to which they are entitled.

I do not believe it has made the Islands available to the people of the country as it ought to have done. I think that a fair amount of the money has been paid out in dividends, and that has meant the limitation of services for the people in the Outer Hebrides. I express my disappointment that we have not had an opportunity of discussing the possibilities of the British Transport Commission taking over the services. I recognise that this question is vital to the Outer Hebrides. During the war I was over there and I had an opportunity of meeting these good folk, the crofters. They are a proud race, a grand race, rich in many things, particularly on the cultural side; but they are poor, very poor, because of their lack of communications over so many years. To some extent I believe this House has been responsible, because it has not fulfilled its responsibility as it ought to have done. I repeat that I am disappointed.

I want specifically to refer to the conveyance of mails. I should like to congratulate the Postmaster-General upon the excellent work he has done since the present Government came into office. In Lochmaddy and North Uist, as a result of the work of the present Postmaster-General, there are now 19 full-time posts among the postmen, whereas orginally there were three. That is in Lochmaddy alone, and I want to congratulate the Postmaster-General. But I also want to criticise the mail services. In doing so, I wish to make the point that the disabilities to which I am about to refer must continue for another three years because of the contract which is now before the House.

To get an idea of the work in the Outer Hebrides, one must get rid of preconceived ideas drawn from seeing postmen making deliveries in London or in provincial towns. The postmen in the Outer Hebrides have not got just a bag over their shoulders, nor have they roads and streets to walk along, or a nice garden path and a door with a knocker and a convenient letter box. They have something very different. For three days in the week, because of parcels coming from the mainland, the deliveries are exceedingly heavy. Most of the shopping of the crofters is done on the mainland through the cash-on-delivery system, and most of their rations come from the mainland. Some of the postmen take out loads of from 94 to 137 lbs. They may be out on deliveries for from four and a half hours to something like six hours and fifty minutes. It is no good saying that it ought to be possible to arrange a limitation of the weight. That is not possible in the Outer Hebrides. They have to take the weight out.

The postmen recognise it on their side; the Post Office recognises it also. As a result, the postmen have to be paid an excessive weight allowance. They go out like mules, often travelling over bog in blistering Arctic winds and driving rain; often going into parts of the Islands where it would be dangerous to take even a horse. They wend their way heavily laden like mules. This is brought about because of the contract which we have with MacBrayne's, and it could be remedied if only the Post Office would institute air-mail services. For the letter side, airmail services have been introduced. It ought to be possible for such services to be instituted to deal with this heavy parcels traffic. For the postmen in the Outer Hebrides that would be a real contribution to their work. I criticise the contract because it will not bring alleviation to these men. It will not lighten their task or their burden. They must carry on for another three years. It is no argument that we must continue the contract because of the delivery of the mails. Better delivery could be given by air-mail services.

There is one short point I wish to mention in regard to the road services. I understand that MacBrayne's are still regarded as motor contractors, and that the Agreement proposes to continue that arrangement. I want to put a specific question; I want to know whether the Agreement precludes the substitution of contract vans by official vans. Many of these old MacBrayne vans are used, nut only for passengers, but also for mails. Let us think of the Newton Ferry service from Lochmaddy. For a long time this has screamed out for improvement, and a request was made for an official van to be provided, but the reply was that there is a subsidy for the post service, and that, secondly, there is the necessity of conserving manpower and petrol. Those may be very good reasons, but the public have also asked about a passenger 'bus. The old 'bus of MacBrayne's still continues and is giving a bad service; apparently, because of the subsidy and the contract, it is not possible to have a Post Office van in place of the MacBrayne van.

I hope that before long it will be possible to hear a statement in this House that this service is to be taken over by British Railways. I believe that is the best service which could be given. We could take over all the workers who are on the job at present, so that that question would not arise; but if we are to open these Islands to the public, something of that sort should be done. It ought to be possible to open up these Islands in such a way that it would be an economically sound proposition for the nation, and a benefit to the working people who would like to visit them.

10.42 p.m.

Captain Marsden (Chertsey)

I thought that I should be the only one who is not a Western Islander, or Western Highlander, to speak in this Debate, but the hon. Member who has just spoken is also from other parts. I thought that the Minister of Transport was inclined to be very apologetic about this contract with MacBrayne's. He should, I think, be very proud to have done so well; and I think that he should consider himself very lucky to have MacBrayne's available for this essential service. The hon. Member for Clitheroe (Mr. Randall) spoke about the £l million which MacBrayne's have had over the last twenty or thirty years; but, of course, they have had nothing like that. Whatever they have had, we must not forget what they have done for it during all that period, except for a period during the war. They have kept up the service. Do not let us think that this subsidy is just to help a leaky vessel which could not be kept going without it. They have kept the Islands open to everybody.

Mr. Willis (Edinburgh, North)

They would not have kept up the service without the subsidy.

Captain Marsden

They run a service four days a week in the Summer and twice a week in the winter, and they have to sail whether there is a passenger on board or not. They keep the job going, and the only thing which stops them, as the Minister has admitted, is the weather. If these captains and crews and these MacBrayne ships cannot sail, there is nobody in the world who will sail these stormy passages, especially in the winter season.

But apart from that, the Minister said the freight charges were a third of the normal service, and if it was not for the subsidy MacBrayne's would have to charge the full amount to make up the subsidy to themselves. But they have it, and everybody gets the benefit of paying only one-third of what the charge would normally be. The Minister has done well, and I would remind him that if he put on a nationalised service, more than £240,000 a year would have to be expended. By all the indications from every nationalised transport service so far, we should not make a profit. We should make a loss. I am encouraged by one little arrangement in this contract, that if there is a profit of £15,000 the Government, which is ourselves, of course, are to get a share of that. That is the incentive motive which can not be pushed too strongly, and I am glad the Minister approves of that.

The Minister's position is a peculiar one. He represents, first, the Government to the extent of 49 per cent. of the capital, and then goes into another department and gets a subsidy of £240,000 a year for a company he half owns; and if there is £15,000 profit he comes away with £7,500. It needs a lot of planning when one has that sort of position. I feel everybody will approve of this contract but let us not forget MacBrayne's, the shipping company, who carry it through. I repeat that I thought the Minister was apologetic. In this he need not be. He ought to be proud of the fact that we have private enterprise companies like this right round the coast to do this work. I hope that hon. Members will agree to subsidise the company; otherwise we shall be paying enormous sums of money for something not half so effective. As far as I am concerned, I support this contract, and instead of going for three years the Minister ought to have been prevailed upon to make it for ten years right away.

10.46 p.m.

Commander Galbraith (Glasgow, Pollok)

Those hon. Members on this side, including the hon. and gallant Member for Chertsey (Captain Marsden), who have some little knowledge of the kind of weather which the MacBrayne service has to face in carrying out these duties, will I am sure join wholeheartedly with the Minister in paying a tribute to the officers and crews who man these ships. I know from my own experience that—speaking in the way the Air Force speak —the conditions there are very bumpy on numerous occasions.

I feel that sufficient credit has not been given to the Minister tonight for the Agreement which he has so skilfully drawn. I believe it is as good an agreement as could possibly be framed. It is both "stick" and "carrot" in its composition and despite what hon. Members opposite have said, I do not believe that any nationalised service could give any better service at the price than this service, under this Agreement, has agreed to give to the people of the Highlands at the present time. I think it is almost a model agreement. I cannot think how it could be made very much better. It seems that the Minister participates in the first £15,000 profit and also in everything beyond £15,000, and we can only hope that the time is not far distant when the prosperity of the Highlands will increase to such an extent that more than £15,000 will be made. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Scotland will join with me in that hope.

One or two suggestions have been made in regard to certain improvements in the service and I join with the hon. and gallant Member for Argyll (Major McCallum) and the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. M. MacMillan) in appealing to the Minister to make absolutely certain that where some of the services are discontinued—as is the intention, I understand—to see that road services are substituted for those discontinued services, and with a reasonable frequency. To enable that to be done. as the hon. Member for the Western Isles pointed out, something will have to be done in connection with the roads. I hope that the Minister of Transport will see that something is done in that direction.

I agree with the hon. Member for Clitheroe (Mr. Randall) that great work is done by the postmen of the Western Isles, and if he can induce someone to introduce an air-mail service he will, I am sure, earn the gratitude of the hon. Member for the Western Isles and his constituents as well. In the meantime we appreciate the work these men are doing for the good of the community. I heartily endorse what the Minister said in connection with the Agreement, and I hope the House will accept it tonight.

10.51 p.m.

The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Hobson)

If I might intervene for one moment, I should like to answer my hon. Friend the Member for Clitheroe (Mr. Randall) when he asked a question as to whether anything in the contract precluded the Post Office from using its own vans for the conveyance of mail. I can categorically state that the answer is "No." So far as mail conveyance by planes is concerned, we are using all commercial routes for first-class mail. So far as the conveyance of parcels by airmail is concerned, that would involve several planes and, quite frankly, the cost would be prohibitive.

There was one point made by the hon. and gallant Member for Argyll (Major McCallum) with regard to helicopters. We are experimenting with the use of helicopters on the East Anglian plains. I am sure the hon. and gallant Member knows that there is all the difference in the world between the East Anglian plains and conditions in the Western Isles. We will consider the matter in the light of the results of the experiments which are taking place.

Major McCallum

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that one pilot carrying out these experiments in East Anglia is a Western Highlander and says he is capable of flying over the water?

Mr. Hobson

That may be so. That is the opinion of an individual. We appreciate it and will take it into account, but the main point is that we shall consider the results of all the experiments when they are concluded.

Mr. Randall

Does my hon. Friend say that if a subsidy of £42,000 or £45,000 were given to an air service, the cost would still be prohibitive?

Mr. Hobson

At present, if we used air services for the carriage of mail it would involve several planes and the cost would be prohibitive. I think my hon. Friend is putting a hypothetical question.

10.53 p.m.

The Secretary of State for Scotland(Mr. Woodburn)

We have had a very interesting Debate and I think there has been a definite change in tone from the many previous Debates we have had with regard to the MacBrayne contract. The change has been for the better. I think that behind many remarks there is some misunderstanding of the nature of the subsidy.

In the Western Isles a boat sailing across these channels is simply a travelling ferry. The question is whether it is a toll ferry or a free ferry. In this case they are not free nor are the tolls completely economic. The Government are making the tolls, or charges, capable of being paid by the people in the Islands and are making a contribution to reduce the price of tolls, so that the people can make use of the boats. There seems to be an idea that this is a gift to MacBrayne's. This is a contribution to the making of transport facilities in the same way as the Government makes a contribution to the making of roads. These are roads over the water just as the others are roads over the hills. When we come to the question of Applecross, it is economic to make the road run by water rather than over the mountains. The cost of making a road over the mountains would provide for many subsidies for all the transport done by these boats.

Major McCallum

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he will make a road over the water to Applecross?

Mr. Woodburn

I was coming to that. One of the difficulties about transport in the Highlands is that one is dealing with nature in the raw. I remember, with the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. M. MacMillan) not being able to get to Applecross one day. They offered to bring a snow-plough to get us over the mountain road—the highest road in Britain. Failing that we had to sail in a fishing boat running from Toscaig and back. This was a difficult matter especially as, late on a dark night, we had to go about three miles to a little village, and over cobbles to a rowing boat and then sail out to a fishing boat and board it. I have had some experience of Apple-cross, and when we consider all the storms and rough weather there, it is not possible to guarantee access by road or by sea at all times. I am afraid that must be a handicap for the people living at Applecross, although we will do all we can to make it easier and lighter. One of the difficulties is the danger that would arise for a boat calling in the dark, and it is necessary for us to accept the geographical limitations on sea transport in many of these places.

The hon. and gallant Member for Argyll asked me about Mull, and whether the freight charges would be approximately the same if the delivery were made by road instead of by direct boat. The proposal by Messrs. MacBrayne is that if cargo is delivered at Tobermory, the port for the island, the freight charges to the different parts of the island would be no more than they are by water.

My hon. Friend the Member for the Western Islands raised several questions and suggested that this was a fixed Agreement. I would call his attention to the services set out in this Agreement, both in respect of cargo and passengers. There is a flexibility in them. The services can be increased or decreased as the occasion arises. I think he was pessimistic about the boats. The company has bought several new vessels, as well as motor vessels and others. They have new cargo vessels coming along and I am sure these will bring a better service especially as some of the older boats have been re-engined. Though it is not possible to make a perfect service to part of the Western Islands this will be extended.

The question was also raised about this company being a profit-making concern, and it was suggested that the State was providing a profit for Messrs. MacBrayne. I do not think this service in itself is a profit-making one, and I should imagine that it has lost money ever since its inception. It can only carry traffic of this kind with a Government subsidy. One of the boats may have more than 1,000 packages and parcels on board and the freight charge would be about 1s. 6d. If one can imagine the clerical work involved in connection with the manifests, it is easy to see there can be no economic success for a service of that kind. It is like the Post Office which makes a fine profit overall but may lose in delivering 1d. or 2½d. letters to any part of these Islands. Obviously it cannot be an economic service everywhere.

The hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. MacLeod), who has had to leave, raised the question of Toscaig. We are exploring the matter of building a jetty there at a cost of £10,000 with the county council, and we shall do what we can. I think the hon. Member for Clitheroe (Mr. Randall) was under the same misapprehension that we were handing out profits to Messrs. MacBrayne. They will get an interest on the money so that, as has been said, there is here a little carrot and a little stick. This is an inducement. It has always been the policy of the Government even in time of war to say that if a person did well he got a little more. After all, if we agreed to payments by results in the case of the workers. We cannot object to payment by results for the people who are running steamer services. I think my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport has made an excellent agreement, such as it is.

Many hon. Members have said that this service should be brought under complete public control. That is a possibility and a matter that may be argued, but there is no possibility of doing that at the moment. The practical test is to get the thing going until such time as the community makes up its mind how eventually it will run the service. The Minister has made an Agreement for three years, during which many other things will have settled down, and we shall be in a better position to judge just how we should proceed.

I want to conclude by paying a tribute to the men and women who are carrying on the life of the community in the Western Isles. It is not only the postmen who carry parcels over long roads. The crofters carry their provisions over those long roads. But the Minister of Transport and the Government have not stopped the work on the crofter roads. The Highlands are being developed, and I was glad that the hon. and gallant Member for Argyll mentioned the fact that there is a change of outlook in the Highlands, and that the Highlands are now looking forward to some kind of prosperity. I hope we shall all be able to make some contribution towards building up the facilities which make life decent and worth while in that beautiful part of our country.

Resolved: That the Agreement, dated 21st February, 1949, between His Majesty's Government and David MacBrayne, Limited, for the maintenance of certain transport services in the Western Highlands and Islands of Scotland, and for the conveyance of mails in connection with the said services, be approved.