HC Deb 10 July 1946 vol 425 cc409-17

Lords Amendment: In page 4, line 32, after "supply," insert: whether for home use or for export.

Mr. Shinwell

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This Amendment adds words which make it clear that coal exporters may serve on the Industrial Coal Consumers' Council, and that Council may consider matters affecting the sale and supply, whether for home use or for the export of coal, coke or manufactured fuel. There was considerable discussion during the Committee stage as regards the position of exporters. At that time, it was my view that exporters would come in, and the export of coal would have to be considered by the Industrial Coal Consumers' Council. That is still my view. However it was thought it would be to our advantage, and to the advantage of the Board, if the point was clarified by means of this insertion being made. Therefore, we have agreed to this.

Colonel Clarke

I am glad that the word "export" will now appear in the Bill. On the Second Reading, I vigorously urged that that should be the case. I felt the Minister was being perhaps a little defeatist in not including it, and was taking the attitude that the present lamentable state of our exports is bound to continue. I will remind the House what those exports have been in the past. In 1913, over 94,000,000 tons of coal, including foreign bunkers, were exported; in 1938 that had sunk to 46,000,000 tons. In 1923 the sale and export of coal alone brought £122,000,000 into this country's balance of trade. Today we have a very different and more sombre picture. In the five months January to May, 1946, only 2,110,000 tons of coal and coke were exported. That compares with a corresponding period, that is to say five-twelfths, of the 1938 export, in the ratio of 2,110,000 to 14,940,000. It is not a matter of quantity alone. What is the quality of that which we are exporting now? Occasionally a decent cargo of coke is sent, but most of what is going is coke breeze and open-cast coal, which is steadily deteriorating the goodwill value of our-trade abroad. Luckily, up till now the. United States have been in very much the same position. She has not been able to export coal as she used to, but it looks as if that position is changing at the moment. There are other serious competitors appearing on the horizon. Poland, who before the war only produced from——

Mr. Speaker

It does not seem to me that on this Amendment we can discuss the whole problem of the export trade.

Colonel Clarke

If I might come to the point, I was going to ask permission, in view of this part of the Bill being a sort of sandwich in which export appears twice, whether I might refer to something under line 42, or if I ought to wait. It does arise out of what I have said.

Mr. Speaker

On this Amendment we cannot discuss another Amendment which is still to come. The hon. and gallant Member will have to defer his remarks.

Colonel Clarke

I will terminate my remarks by repeating how glad I am that export is now recognised in this Bill. I hope it means it will come back to something like its former glory before very long.

4.15 p.m.

Colonel J. R. H. Hutchison (Glasgow, Central)

May I, as one who pleaded in Committee for some recognition of the position in which the export trade finds itself, add my appreciation of the fact that this important word has found its way into the Bill at last? We must not be grudging in this matter if our efforts did not bear fruit upstairs, whereas the efforts in another place have succeeded. Let us accept our personal failure with humility, and be thankful that the country has now got what we were asking it should have I wish to tell the Minister that this recognition of the export trade will give considerable satisfaction among a large body of commercial people in this country who have not yet abandoned hope that the coal export trade may one day revive. They hope that the presence of a representative on the Consumers' Council, charged particularly with the interest of the export trade, means that in future he will have plenty to do.

Mr. Jennings

I would like to thank the Minister for accepting this Amendment. Nobody knows better than the Minister the position of the coalfields on the North-East coast; he has known it for many years. I am sure those on the coalfields there will be very grateful. The great exporting collieries will be very grateful they are to have some representation on these councils. I need hardly tell the Minister that this will give them satisfaction, because from an exporting point of view the future is a matter of serious concern to them. I hope that the Minister's desire for a recovery of the export trade will be realised. Proper representation on these councils will encourage that trade.

Mr. H. Macmillan

We are all grateful to the Government for having agreed to this Amendment. It has been said that the country would be grateful also. I think that is true. Of course, they must also realise this is one of those narrow squeaks; it is one of those pieces of good fortune one has in life. By but a very slender margin we did finally press this point home. It was debated on the Second Reading, in the Committee, on Report and in another place. An Amendment in these terms was resisted by Government representatives, both in Committee and on Report. However, by an agreeable procedure which they have in another place—but which, as far as I know, we have not yet got here—it was brought in at the very last minute, upon the Third Reading. It is aid there is great rejoicing over the sinner that repenteth. Even if he repent at the very last moment of his dying breath, I think we should not withhold our due gratitude.

Mr. Bowles

Mr. Speaker, now that you have given a Ruling on the point about repetition, might I ask whether we could have one vote of thanks moved by one hon. Member opposite in respect of all of these Amendments?

Lords Amendment: In page 4, line 42, at end, insert: In formulating his proposals for appointments to each of the said councils, the Minister shall have particular regard to nominations made to him by the said bodies representative of the interests concerned of persons recommended by them as having both adequate knowledge of the requirements of those interests and also qualifications for exercising a wide and impartial judgment on the matters to be dealt with by the council generally.

Mr. Shinwell

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

In this Amendment it is intended that the Minister should take note of the claims of various bodies to be represented on the Consumers' Council. That, of course, was the intention, and I stated that very clearly during the Committee stage. As there was some ambiguity in the minds of certain people as to our intentions, and as they pressed the point, I have agreed to accept this Amendment.

Colonel Clarke

I want to ask the Minister a specific question on this Amendment. Is it his intention to invite a member or members of the British Coal Exporters Federation to be a member of the Industrial Consumers' Council? I am not a member of that organisation myself but, as the Minister knows, I have an interest in this matter, and I wanted to ask him that specific question. I do not need to call his attention to the value of what that body has built up in the last 26 years, with their great knowledge of our export markets and organisation abroad. They are recognised as the body who have collected this information and built up a goodwill which, before the war, helped us to establish the trade I spoke of just now. There is a great reservoir of information there which could be of the greatest possible value.

Captain Crookshank

I understood the Minister to say that the effect of this was to compel him to have regard to the claims of bodies to be represented. Is he right there? I have not understood it in that sense. I thought it meant that he had to consult bodies representative of the interests, while under this Amendment he would be required to have regard to nominations made by the said bodies. I take "nominations" to mean the actual names of particular individuals whom these bodies wished him to consider as members of the councils. Probably it was just a slip in words on his part?

Mr. Shinwell

I am not aware that I slipped up, though I may have done; I certainly had no intention to do so. The point is made quite clear in the Amendment. In regard to the question put by the hon. and gallant Member for East Grinstead (Colonel Clarke), the Amendment says: The Minister shall have regard to nominations made to him by the said bodies representative of the interests concerned. That was the intention in forming the consumers' councils—that the various interests should be consulted. They may have special views as regards the type of representative who should serve on a consumers' council, or upon any other point, and they should be consulted. This makes it clear not only that they are to be consulted, but that the Minister must pay particular regard to any particular nomination, and that is exactly what will occur. As to the hon. Members point about the Coal Exporters' Council, I could not agree to accept that offhand. There may be other councils which require to be consulted. The essential consideration is that, whatever proposals are put before the Minister, he must have the best men—and the best women—on the consumers' councils serving the public interest, although no doubt they serve special industries at the same time. That is the intention, and that is what will be provided.

Lords Amendment: In page 5, line 40, at end, insert: (8) Each of the said councils shall make an annual report to the Minister, and the Minister shall lay the reports before each House of Parliament. (9) A regional industrial coal consumers' council or a regional domestic coal consumers' council may be appointed by the Minister for any prescribed locality for which such appointment appears to him to be expedient, whether in consequence of or apart from a recommendation in that behalf of the Industrial Council or the Domestic Council, as the case may he, established under Subsection (1) of this Section and provision may be made by regulations for the dissolution of a regional council appointed for any locality if it appears to the Minister that such a council is no longer needed for that locality, or for the variation of the locality for which such a council is to act. (10) Where there is a regional council for any locality, then, as regards consumers and sale or supply in that locality, the regional council shall be charged with the performance of such of the duties imposed on the Industrial Council or the Domestic Council, as the case may be, by Subsection (3) or (4) of this Section as may be prescribed, and provision may be made by regulations as to the regional council's reporting to the Industrial Council or the Domestic Council, as the case may be, established under Subsection (1) of this Section or direct to the Minister, and generally as to the relations between the regional council and the said Industrial Council or Domestic Council. (11) Subsections (2), (6) and (7) of this section shall apply to a regional council as they apply to the Industrial Council or the Domestic Council, as the case may be, established under Subsection (1) of this Section, with the substitution of references to consumers in the locality for which the regional council is to act and to sale or supply therein for references to consumers and to sale or supply generally, and Subsection (5) of this Section shall apply on the notification or making direct to the Minister of conclusions or a report of a regional council.

Mr. Shinwell

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This is rather a long Amendment, but it is necessary because of two considerations that have come to our attention. One is the question of whether the councils should make an annual report to the Minister, and the other, rather more substantial, is whether the Minister should lay the reports he receives before each House of Parliament. I pointed out in Committee that that was my intention, but there was some vagueness about it in the minds of hon. Members of the Committee, and they pressed the point. On further consideration we have agreed to this Amendment, which we think is a reasonable compromise. It means that the consumers' councils will make their annual reports to the Minister, who will be in duty bound to lay them before Parliament, which no doubt will be able to take advantage of the presentation of the reports and, if desired, enter into debate upon them.

The second point has regard to the consumers' councils themselves. It was intended to have two national consumers' councils, one for industrial and the other for domestic purposes. There was some question whether it was necessary to split them up into regions. I had it in mind that it might be possible to delegate some of the members of the national councils to particular regions, but in all the circumstances it may be more desirable to create, in addition to the national councils, regional councils—and that is proposed in this Amendment.

Sir A. Gridley

I am not quite sure from what the Minister has just said what will be the effect of the word "may" in the second line of Subsection (9) in the Amendment. The Subsection says: A regional industrial coal consumers' council or a regional domestic coal consumers' council may be appointed by the Minister. … Although we do not seek to alter it now, we do feel rather strongly that the word should be "shall" or "must." The Minister has expressed an intention which goes some part of the way to meet our fears, but if he can say something a little stronger about his intentions, we shall be better satisfied.

Mr. Shinwell

The reason why it is left permissive is that, while it may be desirable to create regional councils in particular regions where they are very much required, it may not be necessary in other areas. We therefore thought it better to leave it permissive, rather than make it an instruction.

Captain Crookshank

In the presence of the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles), I dare to say that this is a good Amendment. I will take it further than that, and say that this is an extremely good Amendment, and we are grateful to the Minister for his second thoughts. We always held the view that publicity ought to be given to what happened as a result of the consumers' councils' investigations, and we stressed the point on several occasions. The Minister said that it was always his intention that this should be done, but I am glad that he has realised that it is better, from the point of view of Parliament and of the nation, to have a statutory obligation than to rely on the Minister's intentions. Not that for one moment I would mistrust this particular Minister when he gives a statement of his intentions, but as we all know, times and Ministers inevitably change—in fact, one or two Ministers have changed during the period of the passage of this Bill—and it is, therefore, very much wiser that this should be put in, and we are grateful to the Minister for having done so. Otherwise, although it might be said that there was always the possibility of debate in this House, we did not see how debate could arise if we did not have given to us the information upon which we could raise it. Now there will be proper reports, and I am sure that it is a good thing.

As regards the rest of the Amendment, again I think that it is better to have an arrangement for proper regional councils than delegation of authority, as the Minister indicated, to investigate by the main consumers' councils. We may, of course, be wrong, but it has always been very much in our minds that there were bound to be many local complaints. The Minister will remember that we talked a great deal about the poor lady who was a constituent of one of the hon. Members of the Committee upstairs, and who had wanted to know to whom she could complain if the quality or price of her coal was wrong. She is more likely to get her complaints attended to if there are regional councils than if we merely rely upon one national body. Coal enters so much into the lives both of individuals and of industrial users that we always thought there would be many causes for complaint. The Minister has, at long last, met us on that, and we are very grateful to him for it.

I take it that the words of the Money Resolution which we passed are wide enough to cover any expenses of these councils. I have looked at it, and I think it is so, because the Money Resolution merely talks of the councils and it does not specify that they shall be national and not regional. So we are grateful for this, and we think it is much wiser to put these things into the Statute, than to rely on the intentions of a Minister.

4.30 p.m.

Mr. Tiffany (Peterborough)

This Amendment will bring more fully into view the views of the domestic consumers, and we of the Cooperative movement are pleased that this is going to be done. It is mainly from the domestic consumers' point of view that I want to lay stress on this Amendment. We have found that we have had better working, when that has been done regionally rather than nationally. I think that we can say that this is a good Amendment, and one that we can endorse.

Question put, and agreed to. [Special Entry.]