HC Deb 13 December 1945 vol 417 cc628-36
Mr. Eden

Before asking the Leader of the House about the Business for next week, can he tell us anything about the arrangements for today?

Mr. H. Morrison

The original arrangement about today was that the general Debate on the Motion would terminate at about 7 or 7.30 p.m. and that we would then proceed with the Motion for the Second Reading of the Bretton Woods Bill. Representations have been received to the effect that as the Debate on the Second Reading of the Bill will inevitably be limited, it would be more convenient if the general Debate on the Motion continued somewhat longer. Therefore, it is proposed that the Division on the Motion should be taken at 9.15 p.m. and that then the Second Reading of the Bill would be moved, on the understanding, if this is done, that the Debate on the Second Reading, which will inevitably be limited in scope, would also be limited in time, and that we could get the Second Reading at an early hour. I gather that would meet the general convenience of the House.

Mr. Boothby

I would like to ask first, in respect of the answer just given, what the right hon. Gentleman means by "an early hour," and why he should say the Debate on the Bretton Woods Bill should be so limited in scope. It is a complicated Agreement, and a great many questions require to be asked and answered about it before a decision can be given. I would like to know what the right hon. Gentleman means by his reference to ending the Bretton Woods Debate at an early hour, because some of us are very anxious to put certain very important questions to the Government before we give a Second Reading to this vital Measure.

Mr. Speaker

Perhaps I had better answer that question. It must be perfectly obvious to the House that if it has passed a Motion welcoming the Bretton Woods Agreement, then, the Bretton Woods Agreement having been accepted by the House, discussion of it will be out of Order on the Second Reading of the Bill.

Mr. H. Morrison

On the other point of the hon. Gentleman's question, I should have thought that in those circumstances, we ought to get the Division on the Bill by about 11 o'clock. It would be a pity to take a Division later, and I hope the House will be willing to have the Division on the Second Reading not later than 11 o'clock.

Mr. Boothby

May I submit, with all due humility, that a number of hon. Members yesterday deliberately refrained from discussing the Bretton Woods Agreement, because we understood that Agreement would be open for discussion on the Second Reading of the Bill? It is an extremely important Bill, on which the Congress of the United States have spent four months examining it in every detail. On a point of Order I submit it would be an outrage if this House were asked to pass this Bretton Woods Agreements Bill, which is a vital Bill affecting the whole future of this country, without discussion.

Mr. Speaker

The House must abide by the Rules of Order. It is perfectly clear that the House having accepted the Motion, the Bretton Woods Agreement cannot be discussed after that. Once the Motion has been accepted, the House cannot discuss what it has already approved. Therefore, I have no hesitation in saying that it will be out of Order to discuss the Bretton Woods Agreement on the Second Reading of this Bill.

Mr. H. Morrison

I am in the hands of the House. I want to meet their wishes, but if the general Debate is to be continued until 9.15 p.m., in order that wider issues may be discussed, then I think it is a little ungracious on the part of the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) to be strict about the Second Reading unless he wishes the Division on the Motion to be taken earlier. In that case I do not mind; it can be taken at 7 or 7.30.

Mr. Speaker

I deliberately ruled as I did yesterday, in order that the House might discuss the Bretton Woods Agreement on the Motion without restriction of anticipation inspired by the Bill. It is perfectly clear that discussion of the Agreement is out of Order on the Second Reading of the Bill once the Resolution has been passed.

Sir John Mellor

May I, with the greatest respect, put a comparable case? We have discussions on the Budget Resolutions and we then have further discussion on the various stages of the Finance Bill, Is this not comparable?

Mr. Speaker

No. I am not of that opinion.

Mr. Bowles

On a point of Order. I realise what are the Rules of Procedure as regards trying to extend a Motion, of which notice has been given on the Order Paper. I see the Prime Minister has put down a Motion to exempt indefinitely from the Rule the Second Reading of the Bretton Woods Agreements Bill. Is it not in Order, should the Government deem it wise, to move a Motion, of which they have not given us notice, to suspend the Rule for two hours on the Motion covering the Bretton Woods Agreement?

Mr. Boothby

Further to my hon. Friend's point of Order. As I understood, Mr. Speaker, you said, yesterday: According to the rule against anticipation, the fact that the Bill is before the House would prevent reference to it in the course of the Debate on the Motion. Since however, the sole purpose of the Bill is to implement some of the provisions of the Bretton Woods Agreement it would prove a very inconvenient restriction on what was intended to be a comprehensive Debate if all reference to that Agreement were excluded."— [Official Report, 12th December, 1945, Vol. 417, c. 422.] I beg to draw your attention to the fact that that could only be interpreted as a concession on your part, that in the course of the Debate yesterday, reference could be made to the Bretton Woods Agreements Bill for the convenience of the House, but you gave no indication that you were going to rule out all Debate on Bretton Woods on the Second Reading of the Bill.

Mr. Speaker

I did not think it was necessary. I made the concession in order to enable hon Members to take part in the discussion of the Bretton Woods Agreement, on the Motion, without fear of the risk of anticipation.

Mr. Bowles

May I have an answer to my point of Order?

Mr. Speaker

Does the hon. Member wish to limit the Motion or amend it?

Mr. Bowles

With respect, Mr. Speaker, you have not answered my point. I know I am not allowed to limit a Motion of which notice has been given on the Order Paper. There is no notice, so far as the continuance of the Debate on the Motion that will shortly be before the House, is concerned. Would the Government consider suspending the Rule for two hours on that Motion, apart from moving any other Suspension Motion?

Mr. H. Morrison

The Government are being most considerate, indulgent, tolerant and kind to everybody, but we cannot go any further than we have gone.

Mr. Stokes

On a further point of Order. I find myself in some difficulty and probably, if I may say so with all respect, I am not the only one. The other day I asked whether, supposing an hon. Member was fortunate enough to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, in the course of the Debate which we are about to resume, that would make it very unlikely that he would catch your eye on the subsequent Debate on Bretton Woods. You replied that you hoped hon. Members would not make two speeches. Later, you went on to explain that a certain discretion would be allowed, because it would be more convenient to the House as a whole. With great respect, you did not indicate that the Motion on the Order Paper would preclude dis- cussion of the Bretton Woods Bill. I really do not understand it, and I want to understand it.

Mr. Speaker

There are certain matters which can be discussed on this Bill, but not on the Bretton Woods Agreement.

Mr. Stokes

Yes, I see.

Wing-Commander Cooper

I know ignorance of the law is no defence, but I would suggest with respect, Mr. Speaker, that your remarks of yesterday would not have been taken by some new Members of the House to indicate the interpretation which you have now given.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. and gallant Gentleman does not really understand what I meant to say. All the speeches yesterday would, clearly, have been out of Order, unless I had made that announcement. I made it deliberately so as to bring the speeches within the Rules of Order.

Wing-Commander Cooper

The point is, Mr. Speaker, that we all thought there would be a further opportunity on the Second Reading of the Bill to address remarks to the House on this subject.

Mr. Speaker

Yes, I am sorry about that. Perhaps to hon. Members who have only been a short time here, this demonstration might be a good education.

Mr. Eden

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House if he can tell us the Business for next week?

Mr. H. Morrison

Yes, Sir.

On Monday, 17th December, we propose to take the Committee stage of the Bank of England Bill and a Motion to approve the Potatoes (1945 Crop) (Charges) Order, 1945.

Tuesday, 18th December— Report and Third Reading of the Statutory Instruments Bill and of the Building Restrictions Bill; Second Reading of the India (Proclamations of Emergency) Bill [Lords] and a Motion to approve the continuance in force of the Government of India Proclamation relating to Orissa.

Wednesday, 19th December—Report and Third Reading of the Bank of England Bill and a Motion regarding proceedings of the House in Secret Session during the war period. The Government have come to the conclusion that it is no longer necessary on security grounds to maintain the secrecy of proceedings in Secret Sessions of the House during the war. Mr. Speaker, whom we have consulted, informs us that there is no objection as far as he is concerned. The necessary Resolutions will be put down today, and we hope that it may be possible for the House to take them on Wednesday. They will include an order for the reprinting of the Report of the Committee of Privileges, presented on 23rd June, 1942.

Thursday, 20th December—Motion for the Christmas Adjournment until Tuesday, 22nd January, 1946.

During the week we shall ask the House to consider Lords Amendments to the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Bill, the Police (Overseas Service) Bill, and Amendments to any other Bills which may be received from another place.

We shall also ask the House to agree to the appointment of a Select Committee to consider the validity of the elections of certain hon. Members who may have held disqualifying offices at the time of their election.

As is usual on the day of Adjournment for a Recess, it is proposed to meet on Thursday, 20th December, at 11 a.m. Questions will be taken until 12 noon, and Mr. Speaker will be empowered to adjourn the House, without Question put, at 5 o'clock.

Mr. Eden

Might I ask in reference to Wednesday's Motion about the proceedings of the House in Secret Session during the war, whether we might have some information about the Government's reasons for this proposal at what may seem to be rather an early stage?

Mr. Morrison

I think that is a very reasonable request and certainly the Government spokesman will give reasons why we think the time has arrived when this step should be taken. It may be that then, some other views will be expressed.

Mr. Clement Davies

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman can tell us what arrangements have been made for the publication of the Report of the Select Committee of this House which would ordinarily have been published in the Proceedings of the House?

Mr. Morrison

I am not in a position yet to make any statement on that matter.

Mr. Tom Brown

I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House when he proposes to implement the promise given some months ago, to bring forward proposals to ameliorate the hardships of old age pensioners.

Mr. Morrison

I thought that was all well understood. There will be a Bill containing provisions as to social insurance generally, on a national basis, and it is hoped that that Bill will shortly be printed.

Sir Wavell Wakefield

Several weeks ago the House was promised a Debate on civil aviation. Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the White Paper will be available and if there is any likelihood of this Debate taking place before the Easter Recess?

Mr. Morrison

I think there is a sporting chance of having it before the Easter Recess. I cannot be quite sure that the White Paper will be available to the House before we adjourn for the Christmas Recess, but it will be ready very soon thereafter. I will try to get it made available before the House adjourns.

Miss Rathbone

As we have had no opportunity of discussing the Government statement on Palestine, though it has been discussed in another place, can we have an assurance that an opportunity for full discussion will be given shortly after the Recess?

Mr. Morrison

I appreciate the point which the hon. Lady has raised, and we will certainly do our best.

Mr. R. A. Butler

Could the right hon. Gentleman say when the National Insurance Bill will be made available to Members?

Mr. Morrison

I cannot be sure, but I hope it will be before the Houses rises. In any case, I hope that the Bill will be available in dummy, so that the text may be available shortly afterwards.

Mr. Silverman

On the question of Palestine, on the occasion when the Home Secretary made the announcement, by general agreement on both sides a great many people refrained from asking questions which obviously might well have been asked, on the definite understanding that full opportunity would be given for debate. I can appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's difficulties but will he not assure the House now that an early opportunity will be taken to allow the House to debate it before the Commission has reached an advanced stage?

Mr. Morrison

I am very grateful to the House for the restraint which was exercised on all sides, but, of course, our programme has been interfered with by the Motion of Censure and by the Debate on the Anglo-American financial and economic discussions.

Mr. Oliver Stanley

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if opportunity will be given to discuss the constitutional changes in Ceylon early in the New Year?

Mr. Morrison

There are so many things to discuss in the New Year that I am afraid not, unless there is a very general desire and there is contention about it. I thought there was general agreement.

Mr. Stanley

I think that there is a general feeling in the House that there should be an opportunity of discharging our responsibilities to the Colonial Empire by discussing the matter.

Mr. Morrison

With great respect, I do not think it was the, general feeling of the House. As far as we can see, there is no disagreement about policy but it was felt it would be right, as a matter of form, to have a discussion. I think the House has much too much to do now in the way of legislation.

Mr. Godfrey Nicholson

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many hon. Members have received reports, which appear well founded, of general uneasiness among a considerable minority in Ceylon; and is it not essential that this matter should be discussed, even if only briefly?

Mr. Morrison

That does not accord with our information.

Squadron-Leader Donner

I understood the decision was to be taken tomorrow regarding Bretton Woods. If in fact it is to be taken tonight, with no opportunity of debate, some of us who are rather apprehensive about it will have no alternative but to vote against it.

Mr. Boothby

May I ask the Lord President how he squares the gagging of the House on Bretton Woods, with the repeated undertakings of the Government that we should have a full and free discussion?

Mr. Morrison

If I may say so, that is a perfectly untrue and gratuitous remark. The Government have taken every step to give the House the widest opportunity for discussion of the principles involved, and Mr. Speaker has helped the House too. I think that for the hon. Member to offer mere slogan-making observations of that sort is utterly unreasonable.