FIRST SCHEDULE.—(Local administration.) (Hansard, 11 May 1944)

§ Mr. Cove (Aberavon)
On a point of Order. I understand that my Amendment on Schedule 1, page 85, line 30, is not being called. Would it be possible to have an explanatory statement on the 2117 general issues involved. It is rather difficult to follow the legal technicalities.

§ Mr. Speaker
I would suggest that the hon. Member should formally move his Amendment.

§ Mr. Cove
I beg to move, in page 85, line 3o, at the end, to insert: A person shall not be disqualified for being a member of an education committee or subcommittee by reason only of his being a teacher in a school or college which is aided, assisted, established or maintained by the local education authority.

§ Mr. Moelwyn Hughes (Carmarthen)
I beg to second the Amendment.
I want to explain the difficulties which arise under the law as amended by the Bill. There is a subsequent Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove). This Amendment however is in wider terms than the later one and perhaps it is better to discuss the difficulties at this stage.

§ Mr. Speaker
I understood that the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Aberavon was completely covered by the Eighth Schedule. I thought the Minister would say so when he moved.

§ Mr. Hughes
On further consideration, my submission is that it is not, in fact, covered, and I think the House should be made aware of the difficulties that arise now, in respect of teachers on local authorities under the provisions of the Bill. The position at present is that under the terms of the Local Government Act, 1933, Section 59 (1), a teacher is disqualified from being a member of a local authority, in that he holds a paid office which is in the gift, or at the disposal, of the local authority. There is, therefore, no possibility under that provision of a teacher being a member of the local authority which employs him, but that provision does not prevent him from being a member of another local authority. For instance, there are teachers employed in elementary schools under Part III authorities, who are members of the county council responsible for appointments to the secondary schools in that area and, similarly, there are secondary school teachers who live within the area of Part III authorities, who are employed by the county and who sit upon the county district committee of the area in which they live.
2118 Under Section 94 of the Local Government Act, 1933, which it is proposed by the subsequent Amendment to alter, there is a provision which saves the teacher from being disqualified from being a member of an education committee and of certain other committees. The reason for that is that these exempted committees in respect of teachers are committees which have co-opted members. Therefore, under the provision of Section 94 there is nothing to prevent a teacher being co-opted on an education committee, and the subsequent Amendment to the Schedule, to which reference has been made, merely adds "subcommittees" to the word "committee" which is in Section 94. In other words, the teacher may be nominated a member not only of an education committee, but of a sub-committee of an education committee, if the Amendment to the Schedule is carried. The difficulty which arises as regards the situation of teachers under the Bill comes from the setting up of divisional executives, and the first question I want to put is: Can a teacher be a member of a divisional executive? That gives rise at once to the question whether a divisional executive is an education committee.

§ Mr. Ede
It might help my hon. and learned Friend if I said that this was the point I was proposing to deal with under the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove) on page 88, line 26. I had assumed that the point he is now raising, an answer to which I have prepared, would be raised at that stage, and I do not know whether, if we proceed with it now, it would then be possible to deal with it, at the point where this particular point seems to be more apposite.

§ Mr. Cove
What I am specifically concerned about at the moment is that I understand from Mr. Speaker, himself, that my Amendment is covered by a later Amendment. What I want to know, in the first place, is whether we are to be assured by a statement from the Government on how this point is covered.

§ Mr. Moelwyn Hughes
I think it would suit the convenience of the House if the difficulties which arise were put together. They can, in my view, be more simply dealt with in that way. There are just two questions to which an answer should be given and, if it cannot be given now, to 2119 which an answer should be provided in the Bill. The first is whether a teacher can be a member of a divisional executive? That depends, again, on whether a divisional executive is an education committee, and "education committee" is not defined in the Local Government Act of 1933, nor defined in the Bill. Indeed, if hon. Members look at the headings of the Schedule setting up divisional executives they will find the heading to Part II is "Education Committees" and the heading to Part III is "Delegation of Functions of Local Authority to Divisional Executives," from which it would appear that divisional executives are something other than education committees, although, when you examine the Schedule a bit more closely, you will find that, for instance, Part III of the Schedule and Article 8 (3) says that the scope of divisional administration shall define the functions which the divisional executives are thereby authorised to exercise on behalf of the local education authority. It is the educational function. Under that, it would appear that the education committee is transferring its powers, or some of them, as an education committee to the divisional executive. It is quite clear what functions they are authorised to exercise on behalf of the local education authority, and it might well be argued that they do, in fact, function as education committees. That applies to the ordinary executive, but the problem is even more complicated in the case of an excepted district because an excepted district is, automatically, created in a divisional executive and has automatically, therefore, some educational rights given to it under the Bill. If it exercised its educational functions as a right, it may well be contended that it was, in fact, an education committee.
I mention that to show that it is a matter of doubt whether the protection which is now suggested is extended to a teacher in the case of a divisional executive. That is the first question. The second question is: Can a teacher be a member of a local authority which nominates to a divisional executive? If the power to appoint is delegated to a divisional executive, can he be a member of the county council? I refer my right hon. Friend again to Section 59 (1) of the Local Government Act of 1933: 2120 A person shall be disqualified from being elected or being a member of a local authority if he holds any paid office in the gift or disposal of the local authority if the county council delegate to a Divisional Executive the right to appoint teachers where the appointment is no longer in the gift of the county council. It would appear, therefore, on the- face of it, that a teacher can be a member of the county council where he holds a post in the area of a divisional executive to which has been granted the power—delegated power—to appoint teachers.
The second problem which arises here is, if the nominations to the district executive are from the county council or from a county district, a Part III authority, or one of the other county areas, if nominations come from these other bodies to the divisional executive, is the teacher excluded from membership of all the bodies which nominate? I notice that the right hon. Gentleman shakes his head. I would remind them that Section 59 (2) of the Act of 1933 provides that a paid officer of a local authority who is employed under the direction of a committee or a sub-committee of the authority, any member of which is appointed on the nomination of some other local authority, shall be disqualified from being elected or being a member of that other local authority. How far does that carry us in respect to teachers who may want to be elected to bodies who have the right to nominate to a district executive? It is quite clear that in the case of, say, a guardians committee, which is a sub-committee of a county public assistance committee, they may elect members who are not members of the county council, but members of a county district council and nominated by them and paid officers of a county council serving under such a committee would not, under Section 59, be entitled to be members of the borough or district council.

§ Mr. Speaker
I understand that what the hon. and learned Gentleman is now arguing really falls under a later Amendment.

§ Mr. Hughes
I will deal with this second doubt when we come to that later Amendment. If the doubts which I have already expressed can be resolved now, it will be much more easy to deal with the second series of doubts which I have to raise on subsequent Amendments.

§ Dr. Haden Guest
It is extremely important that a teacher who is an expert on education should not be debarred from taking part in administrative functions and being a member of an elected authority, but I do not intend to make even an effort to follow in the maze of legal technicalities in which my hon. and learned Friend has been educating the House because I found it extremely difficult to follow. I rise to ask, if the Minister is making a statement on the point, whether he will include a reference to the position of a medical officer employed whole time by an education authority. What is his position with regard to being a member of an education authority? For some reason which I have never understood a whole time member of a county council service is debarred from being a Member of Parliament, and I do not know how far that may be extended with regard to local authorities. It seems to me that we should as far as possible so frame our legislation that there is the least possible barring of those with expert knowledge from also taking part in the work of local authorities and of Parliament. It is most important that nothing that we do should restrict the possibility of members of medical, teaching or other expert avocations being members of local authorities or of Parliament.

§ Mr. Ede
Clearly, in this Bill we cannot deal with the time-honoured legislative enactment that employees of county councils may not he Members of Parliament. I have never been able to understand why an employee of an urban council may be a Member of Parliament but an employee of a county council may not, but I do not think this Bill is the place to deal with that. This Amendment is a very narrow one and it deals with Section 94 of the Local Government Act, 1933. My right hon. Friend has an Amendment later to amend that Section. At present it reads: Provided that a person shall not be disqualified for being a member of an education committee, or of a committee appointed for the care of the mentally defective, or of a committee appointed under Section 15 of the Public Libraries Act, 1892, by reason only of his being a teacher or holding any other office in a school or college which is aided, provided or maintained by the local authority appointing the committee. My right hon. Friend has given notice of an Amendment to insert after "Public Libraries Act" the words: 2122 Or of a sub-committee of any such Committee. That is necessary because some rather pedantic clerks of councils have ruled that the proviso to Section 94 allowed a man to be appointed to an education committee, but, because it did not give him the right to sit on a sub-committee, his functions were confined to attending meetings of the main committee. Anyone who has been associated with educational administration knows that the education committee itself is more like a meeting of the main council than a meeting of an ordinary committee, and that the real work is done by sub-committees. When Parliament in 1902 allowed teachers to be co-opted members of education committees, it meant that they were to be capable of discharging all the functions that other members of the committee discharged and that they should be able to serve on sub-committees. I believe most clerks of councils, if they have held the view which I have said is held by some, have in fact closed their eyes to it and assumed that the law meant the common sense arrangement of a man being eligible to serve on a sub-committee. That is the specific point raised by this Amendment. Secondly, owing to the altered nomenclature in the Bill, it has become necessary to alter the words "aided, provided or maintained." The old words "aided and maintained" with regard to secondary schools are now all covered by the one word "maintained," and the word "provided" is also covered, so that, as far as the present Amendment is concerned, the whole point is met by my right hon. Friend's later Amendment.

§ Mr. Cove
I have consulted my hon. and learned Friend and we are both satisfied with my hon. Friend's explanation.

§ Sir Joseph Lamb (Stone)
I beg to move, in page 87, line 18, after "with," to insert "the local education authority and."
Under this Schedule a district which is not exempt by right can make an application for exemption by the Minister, and to exercise functions which would be stated in the scheme put forward. But nothing is said about consultation with the local education authority. There is to be consultation with the council concerned, but it does not say that the local 2123 education committee would be the council concerned. I cannot conceive of any case where that would not be so. Probably they would be taking away some of the areas which would otherwise be included in the county operations. We hope it will be made compulsory that the council shall in all cases be consulted.

§ Mr. Ede
I beg to second the Amendment.
I do so because I wish to accept the Amendment.

§ Sir Richard Wells (Bedford)
I beg to move, in page 87, line 19, after "councils" to insert "and proprietors of any school."
I think this Amendment might be helpful, because the Minister is not bound to consult the governors of schools, but there are many schools where the governors have a very great responsibility for education and have considerable knowledge of the area in which they work.

§ Sir John Mellor (Tamworth)
I beg to second the Amendment.

§ Mr. Ede
I am sorry that I cannot accept this Amendment. I cannot see how the views of a governing body are really relevant to the question of whether a local government machinery Bill should enable a particular urban district or borough to become an excepted district. That, I should have thought, was clearly a matter of local government, to be decided between the county council, the county district council and the Ministry of Education. This Amendment would not be helpful in getting the machinery working.

§ Mr. Cove
I beg to move, in page 88, line 4, at the end, to insert: Provided that such functions shall not include the dismissal of teachers.

§ Mr. Parker (Romford)
I beg to second the Amendment.

§ Mr. Ede
I should have been glad to have heard a few words from my hon. Friend in support of his Amendment, because it is a matter which has given us some concern. In Committee we had an industrious group of Members, led by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member 2124 for Ilford (Mr. Hutchinson), who tried to put into the Schedule all sorts of functions which should of necessity, be delegated to the divisional executive. We resisted them all on the ground that it was undesirable that, with the diverse conditions which would prevail with regard to divisional executives, we should have a general provision of the kind that they required. I think the same argument applies, though not with quite so much force, to this proposal to exclude something from the functions. Let us realise that divisional executives will vary very much in the area they control, the size of the population and the past experience of their members. Take the case of a big, responsible local education authority like the Rhondda urban district council, which at one time employed my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove). The fact that they employed him is some justification for thinking that they do not lightly dismiss people. Rhondda is an old Part III education authority which has exercised jurisdiction for 40 years over an important population, and has shown itself capable in times of great difficulty and poverty of maintaining a high educational standard. I put it in a different category from a divisional executive which may for administrative convenience be constituted for two rural districts and a small urban district, and which has had, perhaps, very little responsibility in this matter in the past.
It might very well be right in the first case that there should be the power to dismiss a teacher, with, possibly, the right of appeal to the local education authority, who are, in fact, the employers; but I would have some reluctance in approving a scheme which conferred the same power on the second type of divisional executive. It is desirable to leave this matter to the scheme. I share, to some extent, the misgivings of my hon. Friend, because I know how jealously the teachers' organisations have fought for the right of dismissal being only in the power of the local education authority. I hope, therefore, that between now and the discussions in another place, we may have some conversations to see if we can arrive at some form of words which, while not making it impossible for a suitable divisional executive to have this power, subject to the right of appeal, it could be indicated that the Minister 2125 would be unlikely to view with favour the inclusion of a general paragraph transferring the functions of dismissal to the smaller divisional executives.

§ Mr. Cove
I did not make a speech in moving the Amendment because I knew the Parliamentary Secretary was well aware of the arguments, and because I want to facilitate the Report stage. I thank him for the attitude he has adopted and for his promise to look into the matter again. With that assurance, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Mr. Ede
I beg to move, in page 88, line 18, to leave out from "estimates," to the end of line 21, and to insert: of expenditure intended to be incurred by the executive on behalf of the authority and of accounts of expenditure so incurred; and for requiring such estimates and accounts to be subject to the approval of the authority. This is an effort to meet the fear which is expressed in the wording of an Amendment by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb). We desire to make it clear that before a divisional executive incurs expenditure it must submit an estimate, and that, after the expenditure has been incurred, it must submit the accounts to the local education authority; and that in both cases the submission shall be subject to the approval of that authority. The original wording in the Bill was not too happy and we hope that these words will make it clear.

§ Sir J. Lamb
This Amendment does not go quite so far as I would have wished, because there is a danger of accounts that have already been paid being submitted for payment. I would have liked to see the accountant himself made the accounting officer. Will the excepted districts have their own accounting officers and pay their own accounts?

§ Mr. Ede
That will depend on the scheme, and I have no doubt that the ingenuity of the Institute of Municipal Treasurers and Accountants will enable them to arrive at some means for seeing that money is not paid twice. My experience of accountants is that they do not allow that to happen.

§ Mr. Cove
I beg to move, in page 88, line 26, at the end, to insert: 2126 ( ) Notwithstanding any other enactment, a person shall not be disqualified for being a member of a divisional executive or committee or sub-committee of such executive, nor for being a member of a county district council which, in pursuance of any scheme of divisional administration made under Part III herein, has the power of nominating or appointing any member of the divisional executive, by reason only of his being a teacher in a school or college which is aided, assisted, established or maintained by the local education authority in the area of such divisional executive. I will confine my remarks to a general statement and leave the legal arguments to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Moelwyn Hughes). This matter greatly concerns teachers, who are jealous of their rights to be represented on educational bodies of all kinds, to be co-opted and to have the right to be elected in certain instances. I would remind hon. Members opposite that the classic case of representation of teachers was made by the late Lord Balfour, and his argument has been used in many cases in order to secure it. There is a fear that in the categories mentioned earlier by my hon. and learned Friend, teachers will be in some difficulty and, indeed, may be disqualified from functioning on these bodies. Apart from the divisional executive, there are bodies like the rural district and urban district councils, which are contributory bodies to the divisional executive; and because they take part in the administration of education or have representatives who take part, teachers will not be allowed to stand for election to them. Everybody agrees now that teachers are welcomed because of their experience on all bodies dealing with education. Not only do they serve the education committee, but, as was said by Lord Balfour, there is a reverse action in that it is a good thing for teachers to take part in the wider administration of the community. Some local authorities are extremely good in this respect and some are reactionary. The stiffest of them is the London County Council, which does not seem to appreciate the need for teachers having this wide experience. In Glamorganshire and one or two other counties teachers who are employed by Part III authorities can get elected to the county council. Some of these teachers have written to me and expressed some fear that under the terms of this Bill they will be disqualified. I should be glad if an assurance or explanation can be given on that point.

§ Mr. Moelwyn Hughes
I beg to second the Amendment.
I may, perhaps, be taken as repeating the doubts I have already expressed on the position of teachers. There is a further doubt which is more directly germane to this Amendment. That is a doubt as to the position of teachers who seek to be members of a local authority which has the right of nomination to a district executive under which they serve. The Parliamentary Secretary referred a moment ago to county councils as the authority which employs teachers under the Bill. Some confusion may arise, because if, as will probably be the case in some instances, the power to appoint and to dismiss is delegated to a district executive, the teacher is holding a paid office at the disposal of the divisional executive. If, therefore, the divisional executive appoints and dismisses, can it be said that the teacher is, in fact, the servant of the county council? That probably gives rise to the difficulty I have mentioned in regard to a teacher's membership of a county district council, which may have the right to nominate to a divisional executive. I have already mentioned the clear case that arises under Sub-section (2) of Section 59 of the Local Government Act, where a person employed by a guardians committee to which nominated members may be sent by a county district council is excluded from membership of that county district council. That is clear, but the position of a teacher is in doubt. The learned editors of the last edition of "Lumley on Public Health" express it in this way: Some doubt has been expressed whether school teachers employed by a county council as a local education committee are by this Sub-section disqualified from membership of a district council, which under arrangements made, nominates members to local sub-committees to act as managers of schools. That doubt, according to the learned editors, is resolved by the test whether the nomination is one which the appointing authority is bound to accept. In the case of the divisional executive, they would function under rules laid down by the Minister which would give the power of nomination in certain cases to the district councils. It would be, therefore, a nomination which the divisional executive would be bound to accept. In the view of these learned gentlemen the teacher would be excluded from member- 2128 ship of the nominating authorities. I mention this and the other matters with which I dealt before, not in an effort to tell the House what my view is, but to show that there is doubt as to what the position is. The position ought not to be left in doubt. There ought not to be the same kind of doubt as that to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred before, as to whether a teacher can be a member of an education sub-committee.
That will be cleared up, but here are doubts as to the position of a teacher in relation to divisional executives and bodies which may have the right to nominate on to divisional executives. That no doubt needs to be resolved, because as one hon. Member has said it is desirable that teachers should be able to pull their weight in local government. Indeed the latest declaration on that is found in the McNair Report itself, which says: It is comparatively rare, however, for teachers to engage in forms of public service which may make demands requiring them occasionally to be absent from the school during normal hours of duty. This is a pity. Many teachers acquire in the course of their school experiences a type of qualification which is particularly valuable. We would, for instance, favour a more generalised practice of securing the services of teachers on education committees. Here we have a doubt as to whether they can serve on certain of the great elected bodies. For the sake of those bodies and the teachers I ask that the position may be made abundantly clear.

§ Sir J. Lamb
I should like to add a few words to what has been said regarding the position of teachers on local authorities. It is quite true that there are teachers who have been elected to serve on county councils who will now, unfortunately, be disqualified, because if they were teachers under a Part III authority and that authority no longer exists and they come into the county council area they will be the servants of the county council. There is in my own area a most admirable man who has been a teacher under a Part III authority. He was elected to the county council and his services have been very valuable in many directions, particularly to the mental deficiency committee, He will now, I am afraid, be disqualified. I think that the principle that the servant of an authority should not be eligible to serve on that authority is sound. I do not know if the 2129 Minister would be able to create machinery under which we could obviate that position, but there will be cases, and I know of one, in which the operation of that principle, though it is sound, will be very injurious.

§ Mr. Rhys Davies (Westhoughton)
I had not intended to intervene, but the remarks of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb) rather surprised me. I will give a case to the Parliamentary Secretary which is within my own knowledge where the mayor of a borough, resident, of course, within the borough, is teaching under a Part III authority. Would what is now proposed debar that teacher from continuing to be mayor?

§ Mr. Ede
With regard to the point which my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) has put to me, I am not quite sure what is the occupation of the mayor or his relationship to the Part III authority. If he could enlighten me on that perhaps I could give him an answer.

§ Mr. Rhys Davies
All I know is that in my constituency there is a teacher employed by a Part III authority. He lives in a neighbouring borough of which he is the present mayor. Can that continue when this Bill becomes law?

§ Mr. Ede
This will not affect him at all unless that borough is a county borough and is a local education authority. Then if he transferred to that borough he would be unable to continue as mayor or as a member of the council. On the facts as my hon. Friend has stated them he is not affected at all by this Measure:

§ Mr. Cove
What of the case I mentioned? I will give it in a concrete form. I know a teacher who is now able to stand for election on the county council. Will he be prevented?

§ Mr. Ede
That is a different case altogether. That is the case mentioned by the hon. Member for Stone. Undoubtedly where a teacher is a member of the county council because he has been employed, not by the county council, but by a Part III education authority whose powers will now be transferred to the county council, he will cease to be eligible to be a member of the county council. I think that that is a well-established principle of local government law only varied, as far as I know, in the case of the Civil Defence 2130 Committees which were dealt with by the Home Secretary to-day. A person employed by a local authority cannot he a member of that local authority. That is a principle from which I do not think we can depart in this Bill. The Bill will undoubtedly create some cases of hardship and a few men whose services have been very valuable to county councils will cease to be members of county councils. May I point out to the hon. Member for Stone that, as far as the gentleman he mentions is concerned and his work on the mental deficiency committee, he will be eligible for co-option on to that committee under the provisions of Section 94 of the Local Government Act, 1933.

§ Sir J. Lamb
Unfortunately he is now acting as chairman. As a co-opted member he would not be in a position to act as chairman.

§ Mr. Ede
That must be a matter for the standing orders of that particular county council. It is true that my own county council has a standing order, which I think is quite sound, that the chairman of a committee must be a member of the county council, because if he is not, who is to answer for the committee if its decisions should be challenged at the meeting of the authority?

§ Mr. Arthur Jenkins (Pontypool)
Would this gentleman not also be eligible for co-option on the education committee?

§ Mr. Ede
I gather that his particular forte is mental deficiency, not education. When he is away from school he might like to have a holiday. I was dealing with the specific point put by the hon. Member for Stone. Undoubtedly this is a very difficult subject. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hughes) has put the doubts that exist in certain quarters with regard to it with great clarity, and has been helpful to the House in enabling us to get the thing into focus. I hope that my answers to the various specific points that have been put to me have indicated that a teacher employed in a school maintained by a county council will not be eligible for membership of that county council. If he served under a Part III authority he was then not eligible to serve on the urban district or borough council concerned. He will now become eligible for that form of public service.
As one who has been both an urban councillor and a county councillor, it is 2131 not for me to say which is the more distinguished position. It all depends on the amount of work you put into it. After that, undoubtedly we do get involved in considerable intricacies. The problem of the divisional executive is a new one. My hon. and learned Friend quoted the heading to Part 2 of the First Schedule, which is headed "Education Committees," but all the specific points he raised were, I think, on Part 3. Our view, and we have taken the trouble to be advised on it, is that a divisional executive is not an education committee. That is the view we take and have been advised by counsel learned in the law. I had grave apprehensions myself about this matter but we are assured that that is so. We are also advised that a teacher will not be ineligible for serving on a county district council which appoints members of the divisional executive under which he serves. That is to say, that assuming there is a divisional executive covering the urban district or rural district for which the man serves, and he desires to be a member of the rural or urban council, he will still be eligible for that membership.

§ Mr. Moelwyn Hughes
Is the position on which the hon. Member is advised like this: If a county district is made the district of a divisional executive, that is the council itself is made the divisional executive, and that divisional executive has the power to appoint and dismiss teachers as a divisional executive, a teacher is eligible to be a member of that county district council?

§ Mr. Ede
I was about to deal with that point specifically. That is, as it were, pushing the point to its furthest extreme. We are advised that the position of the person is that he is still employed by the local education authority. Now that the county district council, as an excepted district, is not an education authority—let us be quite clear on that point, because after all that Was the main bone of contention when we were discussing the First Schedule and Clause 6 of the Bill in the Committee stage—we are advised in that case he is not a servant of the county district council concerned. He is the servant of the county council. We are also advised that a teacher is not eligible for election to the county council if the power of appointment and possible dismissal has been delegated to the divisional 2132 executive. In that case we still apply the same rule. The county council are the employer, and the mere fact that they have delegated some of their functions does not render a man eligible for election to the body which employs him.

§ Mr. A. Jenkins
Does it make him eligible for the divisional executive which may have delegated to it the power of appointment and dismissal of teachers?

§ Mr. Ede
I am trying to make my speech on this very difficult and intricate point. I have that point in mind and I should have come to it in time. Any teacher, no matter by whom he is employed, is eligible for appointment to a divisional executive, either by the district council or by the county council or by any other body which may under the scheme be given the right to nominate members to serve on the divisional executive. Hon. Members will know that in the past in dealing with this kind of appointment, it has been the custom to arrange the membership by having a certain number appointed by the county council, a certain number by various district councils and then, if necessary, certain persons appointed by other bodies who may be interested. A teacher, no matter whether he is employed by the authority or not, or within the area on a divisional executive or not, will be eligible for service on such a divisional executive. I hope that following on the points which my hon. and learned Friend read from the McNair Report, a good many appointing bodies will avail themselves of the opportunity of appointing teachers.
The Board intend to take an early opportunity of consulting local education authorities about implementing the recommendations of the McNair Report, which read as follows: We recommend that the Board of Education should take steps to secure the relaxation of rules, prescribed or implied, which unduly limit the participation of teachers in public affairs, and to render possible the more generous staffing arrangements which such relaxation might require. Clearly, the last part of that recommendation will require attention, and the additional recruitment of teachers. We accept the first part. As far as the second part is concerned, we are doing all that we can, as my right hon. Friend will be saying later, to secure that more generous staffing shall become available.

§ Mr. Cove
Will there be a conference?

§ Mr. Ede
It will probably be done by the method of circular, which is better than conference in these days. A point of great intricacy and difficulty was raised by my hon. and learned Friend, and I have given him the answers as we at the Board of Education see them. Here, again, we are most anxious that there shall be no doubt. We do not want legalistically-minded clerks of councils discovering reasons why doubts should be imported into the Measure. I am quite sure that the sense of the House is that teachers should be reasonably free to serve on any authority, except the authority that actually employs them. I hope, in the course of the next few days, to have some conversations with my hon. and learned Friend and the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove) so that if any doubt should remain we may take steps to see that it is removed.

§ Mr. R. Morgan (Stourbridge)
I would like to take this opportunity of expressing my appreciation of the way in which the Parliamentary Secretary has replied to this very difficult Amendment, but I do not understand now whether he is opposing, or going to accept, the Amendment in any form. I rather gather that it is the intention of the Board to make clear by Regulation or memorandum that they agree at any rate with the substance of the Amendment. Possibly we may expect at a later date some instructions from the Board to the authorities which will bring about the position aimed at in the Amendment.

§ Mr. Lipson (Cheltenham)
I was very glad to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary that it is the wish of the Ministry that the service of teachers in the administration of education and of local government generally should be taken advantage of to the fullest possible extent. If teachers will no longer be eligible for membership of county councils, I am glad to know that they will be eligible for membership of the councils of the Part III authorities. On the whole and on balance perhaps local government administration will gain, because there will be more facilities for teachers to serve on councils in their own areas than there have been to serve on county councils.
I am not clear about one point. At present, it is possible for teachers to be 2134 co-opted on to county education committees. For example, in my own county, we have a teacher representing elementary school teachers and another representing secondary school teachers. They are extremely valuable. Will it be possible under the Bill for teachers to be co-opted on to county education committees in that way?

§ Mr. Ede
I would like, by permission of the House, to reply to the questions that have been asked. The reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Stourbridge (Mr. R. Morgan) is that I am asking the House not to insert the Amendment now but to leave the matter to the conversations that have been suggested. With regard to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Lipson), the reply is that a teacher will retain the old statutory right of being co-opted a member of a county education committee. What we did ensure by the earlier Amendment was that a pedantic Clerk of the Peace may not then say: "You can come to the committee meeting, but we are not seeing you at any sub-committee meetings." We ensure that if the teacher is co-opted a member of the education committee, he has as many rights as any other member of the education committee.

§ Mr. Cove
I wish to express my appreciation of the clarity with which the Parliamentary Secretary has dealt with these matters, intricate and detailed as they have been. It has been a very efficient reply. Having regard to the fact that he has promised to meet myself and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hughes), I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Sir J. Lamb
I beg to move, in page 88, line 29, after "satisfied," to insert: after consultation with the local education authority in cases where the application is made by the council of an excepted district. The Amendment applies to the case where an excepted district applies to the Minister to give it power to use the function of further education. If the function is granted to the excepted area, it will naturally be taken away from the local education authority. There is no provision for consultation with the local education authorities before the decision 2135 is come to, and I am asking that they shall be consulted before any of the functions which they now operate are taken away and given to other authorities.

§ Captain Cobb (Preston)
I beg to second the Amendment.

§ Mr. Ede
On behalf of the Government, I accept the Amendment.