HC Deb 23 May 1939 vol 347 cc2097-101
Mr. Attlee

May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what business it is proposed to take to-day if the Motion for the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule is carried?

Sir J. Simon

I hope that with the co-operation of the House such progress will be made to-day as will ensure the Committee stage of the Civil Defence Bill being concluded to-morrow, All quarters of the House will realise the necessity of so doing.

Mr. Benn

I would like to ask when the Report stage of the Army Token Vote is to be taken, and whether the Minister of Labour will supply the House with details as to the manner of dealing with the civil liabilities of conscripts before the Report stage is asked for, in view of the fact that the Vote was put down on purpose that the House should understand the conditions under which the men were to serve?

Sir J. Simon

I am told that the Report stage will not be taken just yet, and that there will be an opportunity of raising that question.

Mr. Benn

Does that mean, therefore, thet the Military Training Bill will be enacted without the House of Commons

knowing what is being done about the allowances to conscripts?

Sir J. Simon

I may not have followed this matter as closely as I should, but I will do my best to answer the questions of the right hon. Gentleman. I think I am right in saying that the provision to be made for civil liabilities to which he refers will be made by Order in Council and that the Order in Council scheme has already been explained to the House.

Mr. Attlee

The difficulty really arises from the fact that the Order in Council is not yet before us, and that there is grave anxiety to know what the provision will be under which the conscripts will be called up. One of the vital points, therefore, is with regard to dealing with civil liabilities. The matter has been discussed, but it is surely very undesirable that this anxiety should run on over Whitsun. Cannot a White Paper be issued in which we are told the general scheme how the civil liabilities will be dealt with?

Sir J. Simon

The best answer I can give is that I will consult my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. As the men will not be called up until July, I do not think there will be all that difference. Anyhow, let me consult with my right hon. Friend.

Mr. Attlee

All these people have their arrangements to make, and they should know as early as possible.

Sir J. Simon

Certainly.

Mr. Gallacher

In view of the considerable time that is allowed for the Civil Defence Bill, will the Government agree to bring in a Bill to increase the amount of old age pensions?

Motion made, and Question put, That the Proceedings on the Civil Defence Bill be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[Sir J. Simon.]

The House divided: Ayes, 263; Noes, 141.

Division No. 147.] AYES. [3.58 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. Apsley, Lord Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)
Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) Assheton, R. Beechman, N. A.
Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton) Bennett, Sir E. N.
Albery, Sir Irving Baillie, Sir A. W. M. Bernays, R. H.
Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead) Baldwin-Webb, Col. J. Blair, Sir R.
Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir W. J. (Armagh) Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) Bossom, A. C.
Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S. Barrie, Sir C. C. Boulton, W. W.
Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (So'h Univ's) Baxter, A. Beverley Bower, Comdr. R. T.
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Beauchamp, Sir B. C. Boyce, H. Leslie
Bracken, B. Guinness, T. L. E. B. Perkins, W. R. D.
Brass, Sir W. Hambro, A. V. Peters, Dr. S. J.
Brocklebank, Sir Edmund Hammersley, S. S. Petherick, M.
Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.) Hannah, I. C. Pickthorn, K. W. M.
Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) Pilkington, R.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton
Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.) Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. Raikes, H. V. A. M.
Bull, B. B. Hely-Hutchinson, M. R. Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.
Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. Ramsbotham, H.
Butcher, H. W. Hepburn, P. G. T. Bushan- Rankin, Sir R.
Campbell, Sir E. T. Hepworth, J. Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)
Cartland, J. R. H. Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) Rawson, Sir Cooper
Carver, Major W. H. Holdsworth, H. Reed, A. C. (Exeter)
Castlereagh, Viscount Hopkinson, A. Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)
Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester) Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L. Reid, W. Allan (Derby)
Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.) Horsbrugh, Florence Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)
Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Howitt, Dr. A. B. Ropner, Colonel L.
Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) Rosbotham, Sir T.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) Hudson, Rt. Han. R. S. (Southport) Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)
Channon, H. Hume, Sir G. H. Rowlands, G.
Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) Hunloke, H. P. Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.
Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.) Hunter, T. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.
Chorlton, A. E. L. Hurd, Sir P. A. Russell, Sir Alexander
Christie, J. A. Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H. Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. James, Wing-Commander A. W. H. Salmon, Sir I.
Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) Jarvis, Sir J. J. Salt, E. W.
Colfox, Major W. P. Jennings, R. Samuel, M. R. A.
Colman, N. C. D. Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n) Sandeman, Sir N. S.
Colville, Rt. Hon. John Jones, L. (Swansea W.) Sanderson, Sir F. B.
Conant, Captain R. J. E. Keeling, E. H. Sandys, E. D.
Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) Kellett, Major E. O. Scott, Lord William
Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose) Shakespeare, G. H.
Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S.G'gs) Kerr, H. W. (Oldham) Shute, Colonel Sir J. J.
Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.) Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.
Cox, H. B. Trevor Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F. Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.
Craven-Ellis, W. Lamb, Sir J. Q. Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)
Critchley, A. Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)
Crooke, Sir J. Smedley Lancaster, Captain C. G. Smithers, Sir W.
Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. Latham, Sir P. Snadden, W. McN.
Cross, R. H. Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald
Crowder, J. F. E. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Cruddas, Col. B. Levy, T. Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.
Culverwell, C. T. Lewis, O. Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.
Davison, Sir W. H. Liddall, W. S. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)
De Chair, S. S. Lindsay, K. M. Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)
De la Bère, R. Lipson, D. L. Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)
Denman, Hon. R. D. Little, J. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton (N'thw'h)
Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. Llewellin, Colonel J. J. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Dodd, J. S. Lloyd, G. W. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.
Dorman-Smith, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir R. H. Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S. Sutcliffe, H
Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury) Lyons, A. M. Tats, Mavis C.
Dugdale, Captain T. L. Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)
Duggan, H. J. M'Connell, Sir J. Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)
Thomas, J. P. L.
Dunean, J. A. L. MaCorquodale, M. S. Thorneycroft, G. E. P.
Dunglass, Lord MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross) Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.
Eckersley, P. T. Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) Titchfield, Marquess of
Eden, Rt. Hon. A. McEwen, Capt. J. H. F. Tree A. R. L. F.
Edmondson, Major Sir J. Macnamara, Lieut.-Colonel J. R. J. Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.
Ellis, Sir G. Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Emery, J. F. Manningham-Buller, Sir M. Wakefield, W. W.
Emmott, C. E. G. C. Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Walker-Smith, Sir J.
Emrys-Evans, P. V. Markham, S. F. Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan
Entwistle, Sir C. F. Marsden, Commander A. Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.) Maxwell, Hon. S. A. Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)
Everard, Sir William Lindsay Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.
Fildes, Sir H. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Watt, Lt.-Col. G. S. Harvie
Fleming, E. L. Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick) Wayland, Sir W. A.
Fox, Sir G. W. G. Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.) Wells, Sir Sydney
Furness, S. N. Morris-Jones, Sir Henry Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)
Fyfe, D. P. M. Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) Williams, C. (Torquay)
Gluckstein, L. H. Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester) Williams. H. G. (Creydon, S.)
Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C. Nall, Sir J. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Ead
Goldie, N. B. Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H. Womersley, Sir W. J
Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) Nicolson, Hon. H. G. Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C.
Grant-Ferris, Flight-Lieutenant R. O'Connor, Sir Terence J. York, C.
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh Young, A. S. L. (Partick)
Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J. Palmer, G. E. H.
Gridley, Sir A. B. Patrick, C. M. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Grigg, Sir E. W. M. Peake, O. Mr. Munro and Captain Waterhouse.
Grimston, R. V. Peat, C. U.
NOES.
Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) Ammon, C. G. Banfield, J. W.
Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford) Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Barnes, A. J.
Barr, J. Hayday, A. Quibell, D. J. K.
Batey, J. Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) Richards, R. (Wrexham)
Beaumont, H. (Batley) Henderson, J. (Ardwick) Ridley, G.
Bellenger, F. J. Henderson, T. (Tradeston) Riley, B.
Bonn, Rt. Hon. W. W. Hills, A. (Pontefrast) Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)
Benson, G. Jagger, J. Rothschild, J. A. de
Bevan, A. Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) Sanders, W. S.
Broad, F. A. Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) Seely, Sir H. M.
Brown, C. (Mansfield) John, W. Sexton, T. M.
Burke, W. A. Jones, A. C. (Shipley) Shinwell, E.
Charlston, H. C. Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth) Silverman, S. S.
Cluse, W. S. Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. Simpson, F. B.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R. Kirby, B. V. Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)
Cocks, F. S. Kirkwood, D. Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)
Collindridge, F. Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G. Smith, E. (Stoke)
Cove, W. G. Lathan, G. Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)
Daggar, G. Lawson, J. J. Smith, T. (Normanton)
Dalton, H. Leash, W. Sorensen, R. W.
Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) Lee, F. Stephen, C.
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Leonard, W. Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)
Day, H. Leslie, J. R. Stokes, R. R.
Dobbie, W. Logan, D. G. Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)
Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) Lunn, W. Summerskill, Dr. Edith
Ede, J. C. Macdonald, G. (Ince) Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) McEntee, V. La T. Thorne, W.
Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) McGhee, H. G. Thurtle, E.
Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. MacLaren, A. Tinker, J. J.
Frankel, D. Maclean, N. Tomlinson, G.
Gallacher, W. Mainwaring, W. H. Viant, S. P.
Gardner, B. W. Mander, G. le M. Walker, J.
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Maxton, J. Watkins, F. C.
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) Messer, F. Watson, W. McL.
Gibson, R. (Greenock) Milner, Major J. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Green, W. H. (Deptford) Montague, F. Westwood, J.
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. Morgan, J. (York, W.R., Doncaster) White, H. Graham
Grenfell, D. R. Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)
Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wilkinson, Ellen
Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) Muff, G. Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) Noel-Baker, P. J. Williams, T. (Don Valley)
Groves, T. E. Paling, W. Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)
Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.) Pearson, A. Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
Hall, G. H. (Abardare) Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W. Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Poole, C. C.
Hardie, Agnes Price, M. P. TELLERS FOR THE NOES
Harris, Sir P. A. Pritt, D. N. Mr. Mathers and Mr. Adamson.