HC Deb 23 February 1939 vol 344 cc663-71

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £156,100, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for the salaries and expenses of the Land Fertility Committee, and contributions towards the cost of acquiring and transporting lime and basic slag incurred by occupiers of agricultural land in the United Kingdom.

7.39 p.m.

The Minister of Agriculture (Colonel Sir Reginald Dorman-Smith)

This Sup- plementary Estimate is really necessary because of the great success which has attended the land fertility scheme, a scheme which really exceeded expectations which were formed at the time when the original Estimates were made. The scheme came into force on 18th August, 1937, and came into operation at the beginning of September. The immediate response was very good, and it was hoped by the Government, and I think by all of us, that farmers would take as much advantage as possible of the facilities offered even in spite of the fact that it would involve themselves in additional expense. When these expectations were translated into estimate figures a year ago the scheme had been in operation only for three months. It was then estimated that in the financial year ended 31st March, 1939, approximately 1,250,000 tons of lime and 500,000 tons of slag would be purchased under the scheme. It now appears possible that the amount of lime will be 615,000 tons more than the estimate, and the amount of slag about 100,000 tons less. So in terms of subsidy this means an additional £200,000 for lime with an offset of £50,000 for slag. It is estimated that the total quantity of lime used has been four times as much as was used in the corresponding period before the scheme.

Regarding slag, the amount of slag will fall short, mostly because the supplies are not available. The revised Estimate nevertheless represents an increase of 70 per cent. in slag consumption over the amount in the corresponding period before the commencement of the scheme. The shortage of slag is due to the falling off in the output of steel, but we are hoping that this will rise again in the future, and there are one or two factors which give rise to that hope. There is the recent reduction in prices of a wide range of steel products and there are also the increased orders for steel for armaments and A.R.P., and if this increase comes about it should go a long way to satisfy the demand for basic slag.

Besides the net increase of £150,000 in the subsidy, the Estimate also provides for an increase of £6,100 for the cost of administration of the scheme. Hon. Members will realise that there is a tremendous amount of checking to be done and separate treatment of comparatively small amounts. Up to 31st January of this year we have had 345,000 applications from 230,000 farmers, so that there must be a lot of detailed work to be done. This revised Estimate deals with the extra staff needed for that, and also for small increases in the fees paid to the Land Fertility Committee, on whose shoulders a tremendous amount of work has fallen. I should like to take this opportunity of paying a tribute to the work of that committee and its staff, and especially to the work of the Chairman, Lord Cranworth, who has done tremendous work for the scheme.

When the Agriculture Act was passed in 1937 there were doubts as to whether it would be possible to exercise effective control over prices, but events have proved that it is possible to exercise that control, and it has been exercised without any friction with the producers and distributors of lime and slag, and there has been very cordial co-operation. That efficiency has been combined with economy is shown by the fact that the cost of the administration borne on this Vote works out at only 2.75 per cent, of the estimated sums to be paid out under the scheme.

Mr. De Chair

I notice that the grant for basic slag is less, and that for lime is more, than the Estimate. Is this regarded as a permanent trend? And is this general sum of £1,400,000 regarded as a normal figure, likely to recur every year, or is it likely, once the scheme has been taken advantage of, to be reduced?

Sir R. Dorman-Smith

It is almost impossible to give a definite estimate. As I have said, there has been a shortage of supplies of slag. The scheme, of course, is to run for a certain time only.

7.46 p.m.

Mr. T. Williams

When the original Estimate was carried in 1937, there was general agreement with this part of the Government's agricultural policy, at least. Therefore, there will be no disagreement with the right hon. Gentleman's general observations as to the wisdom of this service, and I do not know that there will be any hostility to the Supplementary Estimate, since the farmer has taken general advantage of a useful service. The right hon. Gentleman said that prices had remained quite good, that ample safeguards had been provided, and that the scheme had worked well. But he did not tell us how the prices of lime and basic slag had fluctuated since the service commenced. It might be argued that since the Government guarantee was given to purchasers of lime and basic slag, the sales have increased enormously, and that the excess sales justify a considerable decrease in price.

We agree that farmers are undoubtedly taking full advantage of the opportunity, but I would like to know whether quality has been maintained throughout. I have no very sound information at my command on this matter, but there have been rumours that a considerable quantity of this so-called basic slag which has been sent to farmers has no relation to real basic slag. I am anxious to know whether those administering the scheme on behalf of the Department are satisfied that the farmer is getting the right quantity, that the quality is as good as it ought to be, and that Government funds are not being dissipated for the benefit of those who are selling basic slag. I am not sure whether the transport service has been as good as it might have been, and the Minister might tell the Committee whether, in view of the tremendous increase in the sales of lime in particular, the transport service has been on economic lines, so that no unnecessary expenditure has been incurred through purchases having to be sent very long distances. There have been rumours—I suppose there would have been in any circumstances—that lime purchased ostensibly for the use of the land has been diverted to other purposes, such as the erection or repairing of farm buildings. I have had cases brought to my notice, but, as the right hon. Gentleman will understand, names are not always given with the cases submitted. Without making any individual or general charge, I am asking whether those who are administering the scheme on behalf of the Department are satisfied that this lime is being used on the land, and not for building purposes?

The staff administering this scheme, must, of necessity, find themselves confronted with many problems; but how have these salaries been worked out. I see that the chairman and members of the committee receive fees of £300 each, and the vice-chairman £500. Is that because the chairman attends only some of the meetings, while the vice-chairman is always present; or what other reason is there for the discrimination? Then, £500 is being paid in fees for agents for specialised services. I would like to know what these specialised services are in a scheme of merely buying and selling lime for farming use. Specialised services may mean any of a thousand different things. We ought to know what these services are. Parliament has accepted the general principle of the fertility Scheme, and we have no desire to thwart the scheme: indeed we wish it continued success; but we want to know that the lime is used for the purpose intended, that the vendor is not selling an adulterated commodity, and that the money paid for Salaries, fees and specialised services is going in the right direction.

7.54 p.m.

Mr. J. Morgan

My hon. Friend touched upon several features that are beginning to agitate people in connection with this scheme. There is significance in the amount that appears to have been saved in respect of basic slag. I would like to know whether, as a matter of fact, there are orders already in from farmers for basic slag of which they cannot get delivery, and to what extent me scheme, during the year of its operation, has, therefore, failed to meet the requirements indicated by the farmers' orders. Farmers are beginning to ask whether or not the shortage of supply that has developed is part of a practical move to get the price up next time negotiations take place with the corporation operating the scheme. In connection with lime, of course, a numerous series of undertakings is dealt with. I understand that some of the deliveries of lime have been made by people who are themselves, in part, beneficiaries of the scheme: in other words, landlords who own farms have opened up kilns and supplied lime to their tenants—as a result of which, of course, their tenants are able to secure the benefit of this assistance. But, in the main, there is a diversity of sources of supply in the case of lime. In the case of slag, however, the position—rather an awkward one from the farmers' point of view—is that slag is being operated by virtually one concern, and that that concern is employing a certain amount of business tactics in its dealings with the farmers. I would like an assurance that the Minister is satisfied with the position.

7.57 p.m.

Mr. McEntee

I would like to ask a question about the actual procedure in regard to the purchase of lime. Has there, in fact, to be any standard sample of the lime supplied to the Ministry, either directly or through any corporation; has that sample to be approved, and, if so, have the Department at their disposal a body of competent inspectors to examine from time to time the lime which is supplied, in order to see that it conforms to the standard?

7.58 p.m.

Mr. Tomlinson

I would like to put a question with regard to the smallholder who has taken advantage of these facilities. I would like to know whether any considerable proportion of the money granted for this purpose has gone to smallholders. I am given to understand that the only way the small men can obtain this lime is by their forming an association. I have here a letter from an individual, who writes: I was granted permission to obtain lime under the scheme, and the lime was to be used for some eight acres, and it was in the holding of some six different individuals. The lime was delivered, and then they were informed that they could not take advantage of the Government's scheme unless they formed themselves into an association.

The Deputy-Chairman

That is going rather outside the Supplementary Estimate, which deals with salaries and, so far as lime and slag are concerned, is confined to excess. On Supplementaries, we cannot discuss those points.

Mr. Tomlinson

Having seen the item of £6,100 for salaries, I wondered what proportion of that amount went to the writing of the letters and the issue of the circulars in connection with this matter. I think the method of procedure which was adopted calls for some explanation and is unnecessarily holding up a very useful service. I therefore wanted to know whether there was any way in which a man could utilise this service without having to go through the procedure to which reference has been made.

8.1 p.m.

Sir R. Dorman-Smith

The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) asked about the price. It is controlled, and the control is in fact working, and I think that I can say, in regard to basic slag, that, generally speaking, in all cases there has been a reduction of prices since the scheme came into operation. As far as lime is concerned, it is a condition of approval of supply under the scheme that the producer shall not charge prices, or the distributor shall not have a margin, in excess of the price he was charging on 1st May, 1937, that is to say, before the proposal to help farmers with the supply of basic slag and lime was announced. New producers and distributors have been approved to provide supplies at prices comparable with those charged by persons in business on 1st May, 1937. The Committee is satisfied, as far as it is possible to be satisfied, with regard to the price structure. Test inspections are made to see that the farmers are getting the materials at the right price, and that the price is not going up. Certain tests are also made with regard to quality. We have our inspectors who see that the quality of supplies are up to specification, and as far as I am informed there has not been any complaint as regards the quality of either lime or slag.

Mr. T. Williams

Have there been any complaints at all?

Sir R. Dorman-Smith

Not to my knowledge, but I will find out for the hon. Member. As far as salaries are concerned, the answer is that the vice-chairman does the day-to-day work. The chairman does not put in so much time on that particular work. The specialists are the accountants who help in the fixation of prices, and are independent accountants. The hon. Member for Don-caster (Mr. J. Morgan) was wondering whether in fact there has not been an artificial shortage created. I do not think that that is so, because the manufacturers have shown very great willingness to co-operate in this scheme. There has definitely been a shortage of slag, that we know, but I do not think that there has been a shortage of lime of any sort or description, if there has been it has been a perfectly honest shortage.

Mr. J. Morgan

Are there not a substantial number of farmers waiting still for supplies?

Sir R. Dorman-Smith

I have not the figures before me, but from what I know, there are a number before us. We do inspect the quality of the lime, and there is an infinite variation in the types of lime, but we try to see that the farmers get what they are contracting to buy.

Mr. Westwood

Is it not the fact that, as a result of investigations of the Inspector of Weights and Measures in Scotland, it has been admitted in answers in this House that fraudulent sales have been taking place, and that there is no geniune control at the present time in order to safeguard the farmer under the existing law?

Sir R. Dorman-Smith

I think that that is a matter for the Secretary of State for Scotland. I am merely dealing with English and Welsh fanners and distributors.

Mr. Westwood

Is it not the fact that the County Councils' Association in England sent a deputation to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's predecessor in office and that they were able to prove that there were not sufficient safeguards under the Fertilisers Act to protect the farmers of England, and they unanimously demanded that there should be an amendment of the law in order to safeguard the position?

The Deputy-Chairman

I have allowed the hon. Member to ask that question, but it would not be in order to discuss an amendment of the law.

Sir R. Dorman-Smith

That is not quite this scheme. That is dealing with all fertilisers under another Act. The smallholders can get their two tons if they combine in order to buy it, but I would like to look into the point raised by the hon. Member, and I will take full note of what has been said.

Mr. T. Williams

Perhaps the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would say whether or not any cases have been brought to the notice of the Department of lime being diverted for building purposes instead of for agriculture.

Sir R. Dorman-Smith

No, Sir, we have had no cases of that kind, and I would refer the hon. Member to the Act itself under which there is a very heavy penalty if that sort of thing is found out. It is something that I do not think would be worth the risk.

Resolved, That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £156,100, be granted to His Majesty' to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 3rst day of March, 1939, for the salaries and expenses of the Land Fertility Committee, and contributions towards the cost of acquiring and transporting lime and basic slag incurred by occupiers of agricultural land in the United Kingdom.