HC Deb 28 April 1938 vol 335 cc284-92
17. Mr. David Adams

asked the Home Secretary whether arrangements are being made in connection with air-raid precautions for a complete or partial blackout in the counties of Northumberland or Durham or any parts thereof?

The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd)

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. and learned Member for Greenock (Mr. R. Gibson) on 12th April by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. I have no information concerning arrangements for a black-out in the area in question.

Mr. Adams

May I be given the gist of the answer to which I have been referred?

Mr. Lloyd

It is that the initiative must come from the local authorities.

18. Mr. Mabane

asked the Home Secretary whether it is proposed to issue any special protective clothing for air-raid precautions volunteers and, in particular, for air-raid wardens for use in an emergency?

Mr. Lloyd

My right hon. Friend is considering this proposal and hopes shortly to communicate with local authorities upon it.

19. Mr. Mabane

asked the Home Secretary whether any date has yet been suggested to local authorities for the completion of the survey of existing accommodation suitable for air-raid shelters; and, if not, when he anticipates the survey will be completed?

Mr. Lloyd

At the meeting with the local authorities on the 25th, my right hon. Friend asked the local authorities to complete this survey by the end of the summer if possible. In addition, he is arranging for an immediate and experimental survey in three of the London boroughs, and the lessons to be drawn from this survey will be communicated to other authorities.

Mr. Mabane

Can my hon. Friend say how long it will be after the completion of the survey before any air-raid shelters are constructed?

Mr. Lloyd

I could not say that.

Mr. R. C. Morrison

Has the hon. Gentleman any objection to stating the names of the three London boroughs?

Mr. Lloyd

Holborn, Stepney and Wandsworth.

20. Mr. Mabane

asked the Home Secretary why he is inviting fit men between the ages of 25 and 35 to enrol as members of auxiliary fire brigades; whether such enrolment precludes these men engaging for service in the Territorial or other of the armed forces of the Crown either now or in war time; and, if not, who would perform their duties as auxiliary firemen in the event of these men being called up for duty with the armed forces?

Mr. Lloyd

Actual fire fighting will form a large part of the duties of the auxiliary fire service in war time, and active men are required. The conditions laid down provide that fit men between the ages of 25 and 50 should be enrolled, but reservists of the defence forces and members of the Territorial Army and Auxiliary Air Force are specifically excluded. As regards the last part of the question, auxiliary firemen over 25 years of age who have been trained and are available for these duties will not be called up for other duties in the first stages of the emergency.

21. Mr. McLean Watson

asked the Home Secretary whether he has considered the representations made to him regarding the establishment of a civilian training school in Scotland in connection with air-raid precautions; and whether he intends to take any action in that direction?

The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Wedderburn)

I have been asked to reply. I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for East Fife (Mr. Henderson Stewart) on 14th April. The Air-Raid Precautions Department is issuing at once to local authorities a scheme for an immediate increase in the number of persons who may be regarded as qualified to give preliminary instruction in anti-gas measures. This will enable authorities to expand at once their arrangements for training volunteers.

Mr. Watson

In that scheme is there any provision for the establishment of a school in Scotland for the training of civilians in air-raid precautions?

Mr. Wedderburn

No, Sir, it is not considered necessary to have in Scotland a school similar to that at Easingwold, but there are arrangements for an increased number of persons to be trained as instructors.

Mr. Watson

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the feeling there is among local authorities that they ought not to be put to the expense of sending candidates south of the border to be trained in air-raid precautions, and that a school ought to have been established in Scotland?

24. Mr. Noel-Baker

asked the Home Secretary whether local authorities are still being urged to make arrangements to take large supplies of gas masks; whether he is aware that local authorities cannot even get small quantities for training purposes; and whether he is satisfied with the present administration at Horse-ferry House?

Mr. Lloyd

Local authorities were asked on 4th April to make early arrangements for the storage of civilian respirators which could be rapidly distributed to the population in the event of an emergency. As regards the second part of the question, respirators for training purposes have already been distributed to local authorities in numbers which should be sufficient. If the hon. Member is aware of difficulties in any particular area and will supply me with particulars, the position will be immediately examined. As regards the last part of the question, my right hon. Friend is satisfied that the headquarters organisation has been planned on right lines, and it is being progressively developed to cope with this big and difficult task.

27. Colonel Baldwin-Webb

asked the Home Secretary whether the sum of £966,000 in the estimates of his Department for emergency fire brigade services represents outlay on material only or mainly; how much of the required material has been supplied by the makers; and how much distributed to those who are to use it?

Mr. Lloyd

The amount provided in the estimate for emergency fire brigade services under the subhead Fire Fighting Appliances and Equipment is £1,500,000 for England, Wales and Scotland. This is required almost entirely for the purchase of pumping appliances and associated equipment to be furnished to local authorities for purposes of their fire precaution schemes. Up to the present, pumps and equipment to the value of £85,000 have been supplied by the makers and almost all of this has been distributed.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Are these appliances being made in the national factories or by private manufacturers?

Mr. Lloyd

By private manufacturers.

Mr. Simmonds

When will the whole of the equipment be delivered?

Mr. Lloyd

I could not say about the whole of it, but 200 of the large machines have already been delivered and we are expecting a very substantial delivery in the next few months.

Mr. Noel-Baker

In view of the very large sums of money involved, would it not be more economical to make them in the national factories?

Mr. Lloyd

As speed is the paramount necessity, and as contracts have been placed and deliveries are satisfactory, I think it is better to leave the matter where it is.

28. Colonel Baldwin-Webb

asked the Home Secretary whether there is any supervising authority in his Department who advises local authorities as to whether they are regarded as within or without areas which, according to anticipation, are likely to be specially exposed to attacks by hostile aircraft?

Mr. Lloyd

I do not think it is possible to say that any area containing a substantial population is immune from the risk of air attack. Certain areas from their geographical position and from the nature of the work carried on in them are more likely to be targets than other areas. While no precise prediction can be made, the Home Office has these general considerations in mind in examining schemes submitted by authorities.

Mr. Noel-Baker

In view of the very unequal danger to different areas, is it not desirable that local authorities in such places as the London Docks that are exposed to special risks should be warned to prepare themselves for evacuation schemes, or other such schemes, at the earliest possible moment?

Mr. Lloyd

There is another question on the Paper on that subject.

29. Colonel Nathan

asked the Home Secretary whether it is proposed to make use of the public parks and private squares of London in connection with air-raid precautions and the protection of the public?

Mr. Lloyd

It is the intention of my right hon. Friend that the London authorities, in conducting the survey of their areas in connection with the provision of public shelters, should have careful regard to open spaces which might be utilised for this purpose; and this intention was made clear at the conference at the Home Office on 31st March. My right hon. Friend has also instructed officers of the Department who are co-operating in that survey in two or three of the London boroughs to report specially upon this aspect of the problem.

Colonel Nathan

Does the reply of the hon. Gentleman apply to public parks which do not come within the jurisdiction of local authorities but of the First Commissioner of Works; and what arrangement is being made in regard to those who own private squares?

Mr. Lloyd

The survey will cover all open spaces.

Captain Sir Derrick Gunston

Is there power in regard to private squares, or will legislation be necessary?

Mr. Lloyd

I do not think there will be any difficulty in making a survey.

33. Mr. R. C. Morrison

asked the Home Secretary whether he has been able to arrange for an air-raid precautions instruction class for Members of Parliament?

Mr. Lloyd

My right hon. Friend is communicating with you, Sir, to ascertain how effect can most suitably be given to the wishes of Members on this matter.

34. Mr. R. C. Morrison

asked the Home Secretary whether he can make any further statement with regard to air-raid expenditure by public utility companies; whether legislation will be necessary; and, if so, when it will be introduced?

Mr. Lloyd

The basis of the proposals for financial assistance to public utilities has been discussed with the technical committee of the electricity industry and with the Gas Council and arrangements are being made for discussion with representatives of the other public utility services. Legislation will be necessary for the purposes of the expenditure, but my right hon. Friend cannot say at the moment when it will be introduced. It will, however, not be necessary for the public utility services to wait until the legislation is passed before beginning on their scheme of protection.

Mr. Morrison

Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that it is a little difficult for the public utility companies to proceed with their schemes until they have some indication what proportion the Government will contribute?

Mr. Lloyd

They will certainly have that indication.

Mr. Gallacher

In view of the fact that the public utility companies were relieved from the burden of the National Defence Contribution, will it not be possible for them to make their own provision?

Mr. Simmonds

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there have been strong protests from the water companies that these discussions have not yet taken place, and can he say when they will taken place?

Mr. Lloyd

My right hon. Friend is taking action in the matter.

35. Colonel Nathan

asked the Home Secretary what contribution it is proposed to make out of public funds towards the capital and recurring expenditure respectively incurred by London voluntary hospitals, when rebuilding, in adapting their premises and equipment to provide for the reception and treatment of gas and other civilian casualties in the event of war?

Mr. Lloyd

I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply which I gave on 12th April to my hon. Friend the Member for Hallam (Mr. L. Smith).

38. Mr. Simmonds

asked the Home Secretary whether there are any outstanding questions of main financial principle between his Department and the local authorities in connection with air-raid precautions?

Mr. Lloyd

No, Sir, my right hon. Friend is not aware of any question of financial principle outstanding between the Home Office and the local authorities in connection with air-raid precautions.

Mr. Simmonds

Will my hon. Friend see that the various regulations are made abundantly clear to the local authorities, because there are still misunderstandings which prevent, in the opinion of some local authorities, their proceeding with their schemes?

Mr. Lloyd

The Home Office have been in touch with the local authorities on the special question of finance in connection with this matter. The local authorities in general, when they saw my right hon. Friend, did not raise the matter.

39. Mr. Simmonds

asked the Home Secretary what instructions he has given to local authorities with regard to evacuation of the civil population from congested areas in the event of air bombardment?

Mr. Lloyd

My hon. Friend will realise that this is a complicated matter which has to be studied from many aspects before it would be possible to make any useful communicaion to local authorities.

Mr. Simmonds

Is my hon. Friend aware that, if the local authorities wait for his Department and he waits for the local authorities, this matter is going to be delayed indefinitely; and can he not give the local authorities some indication of what his Department has in mind on the subject?

Mr. Lloyd

Yes, Sir; but my hon. Friend will appreciate that it is necessary to have some idea of the shelter provision before giving any direct guidance to local authorities with regard to the question of evacuation. We must study it very carefully.

Mr. Simmonds

Is not this only a question of survey; and, even though the premise of the argument may not be the best, is it not desirable that some practical investigation should be made by the local authorities?

Mr. Gallacher

Is there no experience of any kind to guide us in connection with this matter?

Mr. Ellis Smith

In view of the fact that, owing to modern technique, working-class areas will be affected, are the Home Office treating this matter as one of urgency?

Mr. Lloyd

Yes, Sir; investigations are going on all the time.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Is it not certain that there are some areas from which, what ever the results of the survey, at least women and children ought to be evacuated; and ought not this to be dealt with as a matter of urgency before the survey is completed?

Mr. Lloyd

The question of women and children is obviously a special question. As I think the hon. Member knows, it raises very difficult questions as to whether the mothers ought not to accompany the children. It is a very difficult question, and it would be wrong to give premature advice before the whole matter has been satisfactory thought out.

Colonel Nathan

Has the Department yet made up its mind on the question of principle, whether evacuation is or is not desirable, or is or is not practicable from great areas, as, for instance, London?

Mr. Lloyd

I should not like to give an answer on that question in answer to a supplementary question.

47. Sir John Mellor

asked the Minister of Health the result of his inquiries with regard to an intimation by the Sheffield Corporation rating committee to property owners to the effect that any shelters for air-raid protection would automatically increase the value of the property for purposes of assessment; and whether he now proposes to introduce legislation to prevent assessments being increased in respect of the construction of shelters?

The Minister of Health (Sir Kingsley Wood)

Yes, Sir. I am informed that no such intimation has been given by the corporation in question. The rating committee of the corporation has stated that any alteration or addition to existing property, which would have the effect of increasing its letting value, would have to be taken into account in the valuation of the property for rating purposes. As regards the second part of the question, the matter is under consideration.

45. Colonel Baldwin-Webb

asked the Minister of Health the number of towns in which local authorities have announced their intention of rating air raid shelters; and whether his Department has issued any advice regarding this policy?

Sir K. Wood

I am unable to state the number of such authorities. As regards the second part of the question, the matter is under consideration.