HC Deb 04 March 1937 vol 321 cc543-6
Mr. Attlee

May I ask the Prime Minister what is the business for next week?

The Prime Minister

Monday: Committee stage of the Special Areas Money Resolution, and consideration of the India and Burma Orders, which were debated on 16th February.

Tuesday: Conclusion of the Debate on the Committee stage of the Special Areas Money Resolution.

Wednesday: Supply, Second Allotted Day; Report stage of the Civil Vote on Account. Ministry of Transport questions will be debated. Report stage of the Special Areas Money Resolution.

Thursday: Motion to move Mr. Speaker out of the Chair on the Navy Estimates, and consideration of Votes A, 12, 10, 13, 14 and 15, and Navy Supplementary Estimate in Committee.

The Government business to be taken on Friday will be announced later, and, on any day, if there is time, other Orders will be taken.

The Government have allocated two days for the Committee stage of the Special Areas Money Resolution, and, in view of this fact, it is hoped that there will be agreement to treat the Report as a formal stage, so that the Special Areas Bill may be brought in and made available to Members as early as possible.

Mr. Attlee

There is no agreement to treat the Report stage as formal on this side. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has read the Financial Resolution on the Special Areas Bill, and is he aware that it violates the undertaking not to limit unduly the discretion of the House on matters which can just as conveniently be left to legislation, and whether he will consider withdrawing the Resolution and substituting one which will be confined purely to financial points?

The Prime Minister

The right hon. Gentleman gave me notice of that question. The Government have certainly no desire to limit unduly the discretion of the House on matters which can just as conveniently be left to legislation. The drafting of this Resolution was very carefully considered with a view to avoiding any restrictions on the Debate other than those necessarily involved by the principle which I have stated before in answer to a question on the subject, namely, that the Government cannot divest themselves of the responsibility for determining with that degree of particularity the purposes and conditions for and under which money is asked for should be set out in the Motion to which the King's Recommendation is to be signified. The Resolution that stands on the Paper particularises these purposes and conditions only in so far as they are fundamental to the financing of the Government's legislative proposals as outlined in the White Paper which was recently circulated, and contains nothing which is not strictly related to the finance of these proposals. The answer to the last part of the right hon. Gentleman's question, therefore, is in the negative.

Mr. Attlee

Has the right hon. Gentleman considered that this proposed Financial Resolution is almost equivalent to a Bill? It not only contains financial matters but even definitions, and it lays them down with such particularity that it is impossible to get in any Amendment at all. May I call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to what you, Sir, said on 3rd December, 1934: It must be evident to all hon. Members that, under the new procedure which has been adopted by this House for some years now, hon. Members are very much restricted in their power to move Amendments either on a Resolution itself, or, indeed, on the Committee stage of a Bill. If I were asked for my opinion on the subject, I should say that not only has the limit been reached, but that it has been rather exceeded in the amount of detail that is put in a Money Resolution."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd December, 1934; col. 1236, Vol. 295.] I ask the Prime Minister whether he has compared this Financial Resolution with the Financial Resolution on Special Areas which we had last time, and whether, as a matter of fact, this Resolution does not go even further in particularity than on the last occasion? I would ask him, further, whether he recalls the letter in the "Times" by a retired and very highly respected servant of this House, Sir Bryan Fell, and his remarks on the effect that this was having on the House of Commons.

The Prime Minister

As I have said, I had in mind the observations that were made to the House by Mr. Speaker, and we had those observations in mind in the framing of this Resolution. In our view, we have taken them into consideration, and, as was said in the words of my answer, we have so drafted the Resolution.

Mr. Attlee

In view of what the Prime Minister has said, which I consider is an abuse by the Government of the procedure of this House, I give notice that I shall put on the Paper a Motion for the rescission of Standing Order 69, which is the effective Order that prevents our discussing matters under this Resolution, and I shall ask the Government for an early day to discuss it before we have to discuss this Money Resolution, which, in my view renders all effective debate impossible.

Mr. Mabane

You have given the House guidance on these points before, Mr. Speaker. Might I ask you whether you could give the House guidance on this point now, and indicate whether, in your opinion, this Resolution falls outside the limits of your previous statement to the House?

Mr. Speaker

At this particular moment, it might be best if I did not make any comment.

Sir Archibald Sinclair

Would the Prime Minister say whether we shall have an opportunity next week of discussing the new Import Duties Orders varying the duties on steel and pig iron, in view of the importance of the issues they raise.

The Prime Minister

No, I am afraid it is impossible to give an answer at the moment.

Mr. Hardie

If it is impossible to give an answer to that question, is there nothing to be said about re-starting the blast furnaces in Scotland for making the raw materials?

The Prime Minister

Not without notice.

Mr. Hardie

It will take years.