§ 2 and 4. Captain Sir WILLIAM BRASSasked the Minister of Labour (1) whether he is aware that in Great Harwood, Lancashire, the unemployed claiming transi- 2018 tional benefit who have no income whatsoever coming into the household are all having their benefits reduced to the Poor Law scale; and whether he will issue instructions on this point;
(2) whether he is aware that in Great Harwood, Lancashire; the public assistance committee, working under instructions from the Lancashire County Council, are not taking into account the necessary rent and rates which have to be paid by the individual householders, but are merely basing their awards, regardless of the amount of these outgoings, on the Poor Law scale of benefit; and whether he will consider issuing special instructions to make it clear to these authorities that necessary outgoings such as these must be taken into account?
§ 10. Mr. GORDON MACDONALDasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that unemployed persons with dependants on transitional benefit and having no income coming into the house are receiving less than the full scale of unemployment benefits; and whether in such cases he will issue regulations for the full scale to be paid?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONUnder the Order-in-Council, the duty of determining the need of an applicant for transitional payments has been laid upon the local authority, and I have no power to interfere with their discretion.
§ Sir W. BRASSCannot my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that these unfortunate people who are unemployed shall not be treated as paupers?
§ Mr. MACDONALDIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that single young men have been paid only 9s. a week in many cases?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONNo, Sir, I am not aware of that fact. I may say that both the Minister of Health and myself are watching this matter very closely, but the procedure has been in operation for only a few weeks, and until we have much further information as to what is going on in the country I cannot make any further statement about it.
§ Mr. LAWSONAre not these being treated as Poor Law cases rather than as transitional cases?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONNo, Sir, I am not prepared to accept that statement.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSIs there anything in the right hon. Gentleman's regulations which gives public assistance committees power to reduce unemployment benefit where there is no supplementary income in the home?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONThe hon. Member knows that the Order says that these cases are to be assessed in the same way as applications for public assistance.
§ 3. Sir W. BRASSasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the clerks employed to ascertain particulars required to be supplied by applicants for transitional benefit under the means test are being recruited locally in some of the smaller towns in Lancashire; and whether, seeing that this practice is resented by the applicants who night happen to live in the same streets as the clerks, he will consider giving instructions for these clerks to be recruited outside the area in which they are to work?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONThis is a matter within the discretion of the local authority, and I have no power to issue instructions upon it.
§ Sir W. BRASSDoes not the right hon. Gentleman realise that it is most undesirable that people living in the next house should be inquiring into the condition of their neighbours?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONIf my hon. Friend holds that view—and I do not dissent from it—it is a matter which he must take up with the local authorities and not with me.
§ 7. Mr. TINKERasked the Minister of Labour what method was adopted by the officials at the employment exchanges in determining the order in which those who were on transitional benefit should appear before the public assistance committees?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONThe exchanges were only concerned with the transmission of the forms of application to the public assistance authorities; in general, these forms were transmitted in alphabetical order within each occupation, all occupations being as far as possible dealt with simultaneously. Subsequent action was organised by the authority according to their discretion.
§ Mr. TINKERIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that much dissatisfaction is caused by some cases being taken earlier than others? Could he not have so arranged it as to let all the cases go through first before any payment was suspended?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONNo, Sir, the hon. Gentleman will see that his proposal is impracticable. If all the cases were dealt with as he suggests, the first lot of assessments would be out of date before they were paid at all.
§ Sir W. BRASSSurely that depends on the number of people whose cases have to be gone through? It is four weeks before there is a revision.
§ Sir H. BETTERTONBut where there is a large number of cases there must be a uniform system. If there were a large number of assessments the first lot would be out of date if payment were deferred till all had been dealt with.
§ 8. Mr. TINKERasked the Minister of Labour the number from Leigh, Atherton, and Tyldesley Employment Exchanges who have been before the public assistance committees to have their cases inquired into under the transitional period test; how many have been refused benefit altogether; and how many have been given less than the standard benefit?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONBetween 12th November and 5th December, 1931, 1,838 applications for transitional payments have been referred to the public assistance committee for the Leigh area, in which the Leigh and Tyldesley Employment Exchanges are situated. During the same period determinations were made by the committee in 848 cases, including 117 cases in which the determinations provided that transitional payments should be made at the normal benefit rate, 381 cases at a lower rate and 350 cases in which the needs of the applicant were not held to justify any payment.
§ 9. Mr. DONNERasked the Minister of Labour the number of married women in Islington and in West Islington, separately, who, as a result of the new transitional arrangements, have been deprived of unemployment benefit?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONI regret that statistics giving the information desired are not available.
§ 13. Mr. JAMIESONasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the public assistance committee of the Corporation of Glasgow have adopted a uniform scale under which unemployed men in receipt of disability pensions are to receive the proportion of the maximum transitional payment scale corresponding to the difference between the percentage of their disability and 100; and whether, as this fixing of a uniform scale conflicts with the provisions of the Order-in-Council, he will take steps to secure the observance of those provisions?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONI understand that where such scales exist they are used for general guidance in dealing with the circumstances of particular cases. I am not aware that this involves any failure to carry out the requirement of the Order-in-Council.
§ Mr. JAMIESONIs the right hon. Gentleman advising the committees that the nature of the disability should be taken into account in each case?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONOf course, the circumstances of each ease must always be taken into consideration.
§ 16. Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that need pensions as well as disability pensions are being taken into account by the West Riding (Yorks) public assistance committee when dealing with transition cases; that Thomas Smith, of 52, York Street, Rossington, whose wife has a small pension of 8s. per week, has had a reduction of 3s. 9d. a week from his unemployment benefit; and, as this is inconsistent with the terms of the circular sent to public assistance committees, will he state what action he is taking to deal with it?
§ 18. Mr. BUCHANANasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware of the dissatisfaction against the methods of the Glasgow public assistance committee in administering the means test, particularly with regard to the assessment of ex-Army pensions, income from workmen's compensation, and sickness payment; and if he will make representations to the local 2022 authority to alter their method of calculating the incomes of the unemployed?
20. Lieut.-Colonel MOOREasked the Minister of Labour what action he proposes to take in respect of the complaints he has received in regard to the administration of the means test by public assistance committees?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONAn authority's determination on all applications for transitional payments is final. As I have already informed the House, I have no power to interfere with the discretion of an authority which is carrying out its duty under the Order in Council. While, therefore, I shall watch very carefully the general administration of the scheme in the light of information which comes before me, I do not propose to make representations to authorities in regard to individual cases. Any such representations must be addressed to authorities by applicants themselves. I have no reason to doubt that they will receive careful consideration.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSAre we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman actually agrees to the reduction of unemployment benefit because of a widow's need pension?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONThe hon. Member must only draw from my reply exactly what I said.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSIn view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman said that he would not make any representations to the local authorities, does he not agree with the policy pursued by the public assistance committees?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONNo, Sir, I cannot accept that deduction at all. I have said over and over again that the decision of the local authorities is binding, and that I have no power to give them instructions.
§ Mr. BUCHANANIn view of the fact that this is State money which is being allocated—money which has been voted by this House coming from Government funds—is it not desirable that this House and the Department should see it is spent as Parliament desired, and will the right hon. Gentleman see that this Government money is used in the way which the House desires it to be used?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONNo doubt all those considerations were taken into account by the House when the local authorities were authorised to deal with this matter.
Lieut.-Colonel MOOREIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that during the last election there was published, under the authority of the Government, a statement that disability pensions enjoyed by ex-service men would not be taken into consideration in applying the means test, and is he aware that candidates like myself frequently gave assurances that that would be so and that that has not been carried out?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONMy hon. and gallant Friend is under an entire misapprehension. No such statement was made on the authority of the Government.
§ Sir JOHN HASLAMIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Home Secretary, who was a member of the Government and a candidate in Lancashire at the General Election, gave us a lead and said that only the interest and not the capital would be taken into account?
§ The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir Herbert Samuel)No, Sir. That is quite incorrect.
§ Mr. LUNNIs the right hon. Gentleman contemplating issuing new Regulations for the guidance of the public assistance committees?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONNo, Sir; not at present.
§ 54. Mr. MANDERasked the Minister of Health why income estimated to arise from the occupation of a man's own house in which he is living is treated in a different manner by public assistance committees to income accruing from other sources?
§ The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Hilton Young)I am not aware of any distinction such as that suggested but, if my hon. Friend will give me specific instances, I shall be pleased to make inquiries.
§ 57. and 58. Mr. ALBERYasked the Minister of Health (1) what scales of relief have been adopted by the public assistance committees as regards single 2024 men in the adjoining districts of Northfleet and Swanscombe;
(2) If he is aware that transitional benefit cases of a similar nature in two adjoining districts of Northfleet and Swanscombe are being assessed on the basis of 9s. and 15s. 3d., respectively, for single men; and what steps are being taken to ensure uniformity of treatment?
§ Sir H. YOUNGThe practice of committees in assessing the needs of applicants for transitional payments must follow their practice in dealing with able-bodied applicants for relief. I am not aware that any scale of relief has been laid down by the public assistance authority, and the matter is within its discretion.
§ Mr. ALBERYIn view of the urgent nature of the matter to those concerned, will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking to have it looked into and to take the necessary steps at the earliest possible moment?
§ Sir H. YOUNGIt is hard to comprehend from the questions what is he matter that my hon. Friend desires me to look into, but, if he considers the answer, I think he will find that it covers it.