CLAUSE 18.—(Inquiries by Minister.) (Hansard, 12 July 1928)

§ Mr. E. ALEXANDER
I beg to move, in page 11, line 3, at the end, to add the words: (2) The provisions of Section 20 of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919, shall apply to all inquiries held, or to be held, by the Minister under this Act as though such inquiries were held for the purposes of that Act. We have heard a good deal about the safeguards in the Bill, more especially with regard to the inquiries which are to be made, and this Amendment, which I understand is accepted by the promoters, relates to the machinery of these inquiries.

§ Mr. WELLS
I beg to second the Amendment.

§ Colonel ASHLEY
We all want to make the inquiries that have to be made real, and this Amendment will secure that end.

§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER
On this Motion, I think it is as well Co express to the promoters of the Bill the very strong feeling that is held on this side in consequence of their action during the Report stage of this Bill. The promoters asked the Chair to accept the Closure upon a discussion of what we regarded as the most important Amendment down for debate on this Bill, and, as a consequence, they have left a very bad impression indeed upon the minds of hon. Members on these benches and of those in all parts of the House who speak for the local authorities. We had a very close and careful consultation with the representatives of the local authorities, who have millions and millions of pounds invested in their undertakings, just the same as the railways have; and we resent very much 2620 that so highly controversial a matter as the proper protection of the interests of the local authorities should have been closured within the course of an hour and a half's debate at the instigation of one of the directors of the companies promoting the Bill. I want to say, in conclusion, that I do not wish to oppose the passage of the Bill, but I do want to see that fair play takes place in the debates in this House in regard to the protection of municipal interests; and I am bound to express, on behalf of my colleagues on this side, their grave concern at the way in which this question was closured.

§ Mr. MACKINDER
I wish to associate myself with the protest made by my hon. Friend. Hon. Members opposite seem to think we ought not to speak on these weighty matters which concern them, because when one Member of the official Opposition wanted to speak, at a moment when at least eight other Members on this side were desirous of expressing their views, an hon. and gallant Member opposite moved the Closure. The railway companies may be very important to him. I suppose they are, and I suppose he represents them very well in this House. I want to tell him that we on this side of the House have a very keen interest in municipal affairs. Some of us have seen our tramways losing money, and have put in work to regain what they have lost. They serve an important public service, and it is monstrous of Members on the other side of the House to use their great majority in this way. I was prepared to support the Railway Bills, and had expressed my desire to support them, largely on account of the men who are interested, but the action of hon. Members opposite is going to make me keep my eyes open very carefully in future on any Railway Bill that comes before the House. If they are going to be rushed through, they are not going to get our support. The municipal tramways are very dear to us. The most important Clause in the Bill was not adequately discussed, and no one can claim that it was adequately discussed, and it is really an abuse of the methods of this House and of the conduct of this House that the Closure should have been moved after so short a time.

§ Mr. SPEAKER
I have told the hon. Member several times that this is not a matter which can be discussed.

§ Mr. MACKINDER
I understood at the beginning of the proceedings that, in order to facilitate the business, Clause 4 and the Amendments thereon should be discussed as one. My point is that they were not discussed, and when Mr. Speaker came to an agreement with the House, I thought that the House would keep their side of the agreement, and let Clause 4 be discussed. I challenge anybody to say that the Clause was discussed. It was not, and hon. Members opposite did not keep their share of the agreement. I feel indignant about it; it is not an assumption of indignation, and I say that if hon. Members will do this kind of thing on a Bill of this sort, it does not do them credit, and it does not do credit to the House. The business was too important to be rushed through like that.

§ Colonel ASHLEY
I do not really think that it is my business to say anything——

§ Mr. MACKINDER
Then why say it?

§ Colonel ASHLEY
—but I should not like the discussion on this important Bill to pass with any note of discord. I can assure hon. Members opposite that it was not intended unduly to cut short the discussion——[Interruption].

§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER
Do I understand from this explanation that the Minister of Transport was a party to the moving of the Closure?

§ Colonel ASHLEY
I was not a party to the moving, but I voted for it. I would point out to hon. Members that the discussion on this particular question lasted an hour and a half, and we were in the position of having a great many pages of Amendments before us, and nobody knew how long the discussions were going to take. We did it with no idea of trying to cripple discussion.

Mr. THOMAS
I would deplore as much as anybody that the Third Reading of this Bill, with all its consequences, should wind up in a bad spirit, but I am bound to say, and I would be deceiving the House if I did not say, that no one was more astonished than I was when the Closure was moved, and I showed my feelings by going into the Lobby against it. It would have been much better if 2622 the Closure motion had come from the Government. No one disguises the importance of the Bill and the need of adequate discussion, and I hope that my hon. Friends will take this assurance that I have been in all the negotiations on this matter with those who have been promoting the Bill, and nobody who was a promoter or supporter of the Bill intended or made arrangements or in any way had made provision for the Closure to be moved. It is only fair that the House should know that Indeed, the best answer I can give in that my own view is that the House would have sat until well on into the morning. I know how things are said in the heat and passion of temper——

§ Mr. JOHN
And for the sake of interests.

Mr. THOMAS
If there is to be talk of interests, I am as interested as anyone else.

§ Mr. MACKINDER
We did not refer to you.

Mr. THOMAS
I feel honestly that it was due to a bit of temper, such as may naturally be shown, and I can only say that I regret it, that I hope it will be forgotten by all who have worked for this Bill, believing it to be a good Measure, believing that the right thing has been done and believing that the community will not suffer through it. I hope the closure incident will not rankle in the minds of any one or engender a feeling of bitterness, or give rise to the idea that a trap was set or that what happened was done with a deliberate intention.

§ Mr. LAMB
I do not wish to say anything on the subject referred to by the last speaker, but as the mover of the rejection of the Bill when it came up for Second Beading I should like to say that neither I nor those who acted with me on that occasion opposed the Bill as I stated at the time out of any animosity or ill will towards the railway companies. What we wanted was an opportunity for reasonable improvements to be made in a measure of this importance. I regret very much that the Amendments which were put down in good faith have not been accepted not one of them—and we are disappointed that we have not been met in what I may term a rather more 2623 generous spirit by the promoters of the Bill. However, I would not like to end on that note. I would rather say that although we have not been successful I hope we may rely upon the promoters of the Bill to see that the rights and interests of traders generally are respected up to the hilt. We have not obtained what we regard as necessary Amendments and therefore I hope the Companies will voluntarily show some regard to other interests while operating these Bills.