Mr. SANDEMAN ALLENI beg to move in page 6, line 32, to leave out the words "any such amendment as aforesaid" and to insert instead thereof the words:
under the foregoing provisions any amendment which is not necessitated by an alteration of the valuation list and the effect of which is to alter the amount appearing in the rate as chargeable in respect of any hereditament.The reason for this Amendment is that the wording of the Clause as it stands goes a little too far and would include every kind of alteration such as corrections and so forth, and also agreed alterations and alterations resulting from 1060 judgments—all of which would automatically come within this provision as to giving notice. The whole point and intention of the Clause is to protect owners, so that they may receive proper notice of any alteration of the amount chargeable in respect of any hereditament.
§ Mr. S. ROBERTSI beg to second the Amendment.
§ Sir K. WOODI shall be happy to accept this Amendment. The Clause deals with alterations of a rate including the correction of any clerical mistakes that may happen, and the last part of the Clause provides that notice shall be given to the person affected if any alteration is made. Obviously it would be a waste of time and money to give notice of every possible alteration which might take place such as the setting right of clerical errors. In such a case there is no necessity for giving notice, and the Amendment provides that notice shall be given of any change which is not necessitated by an alteration of the valuation list and the effect of which is to alter the amount chargeable in respect of any hereditament.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODI would like to find out from the hon. Gentleman if these Amendments are suggested by hon. Members to the Government or are suggested by the Government to hon. Members. I understand that there was a meeting with hon. Members concerned in this Bill some days age. I would also [joint out to the hon. Gentleman that the Amendment taken with the Clause does not seem to lead properly. It will read as follows:
Provided that not loss than seven days before making under the foregoing provisions any Amendment which is not necessitated by an alteration of the valuation list and the effect of which is to alter the amount appearing in the rate as chargeable in resent of any hereditament the rating authority shall send notice of the proposed amendment to the occupier of the hereditament affected.It is an awful sentence. It has not a comma in six lines. Would it not be possible, when the Bill goes to another place, to improve the grammar and the punctuation, so that it will be intelligible to ordinary mortals as well as to the highly inspired Gentlemen opposite?
§ Sir K. WOODI am always glad to meet the right hon. and gallant Gentle- 1061 man in any way I can, especially in matters of commas. Many of the Amendments on the Paper which the Government propose to accept have been considered, as the House would anticipate, in the interval between the Committee stage and the Report stage by many associations concerned in the administration of this Bill, and it is true as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman says, that we did meet certain hon. Members the other day, including Members of his own party, with a view to facilitating discussion. The House will appreciate that many of these Amendments are very technical in character and steps were taken, as I say, in order to facilitate discussion.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODThe hon. Gentleman will understand that it is of great assistance to the Opposition to know which are Government Amendments and which are not. If one sees an enormous number of Amendments in the names of hon. Members one does not give them the same attention as would be given to Government Amendments. I submit it is desirable that the Government should appear in its own colours.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. LOOKERI beg to move, in page 0, line 34, to leave out the words "occupier of the hereditament," and to insert instead thereof the words "person liable to be rated."
The point of the Amendment is that the occupier of a hereditament is not always the person liable for rates, and obviously the notice referred to in the Clause should be given to the person liable for the rates.
§ Mr. G. PETOI beg to second the Amendment.
§ Sir K. WOODI shall be very glad to accept this Amendment.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODThis is not such a complicated Amendment that we cannot understand it. It seems to be an entirely reactionary step, which ought to have been explained, either by the Mover of the Amendment or by the Government.
§ Sir K. WOODI shall be glad to give an explanation. As a matter of fact, I thought the Mover of the Amendment gave a very clear explanation of it. The right hon. Gentleman will remember that 1062 in Committee various provisions were made by which notice of any Amendments to the rate were to be sent to the occupier of the hereditament affected, and this Amendment proposes that it should be sent instead to the person liable to be rated, which, I think, is a proper course to take.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODI disagree. Take the case of compounded property. Under the Bill notice of a change had to be sent to the occupier who paid his rent and rates together, but under this Amendment the occupier will not have any notification at all of a change in the rate. It is even worse than that, because under the Kent Restriction Acts the power of the landlord to raise the rent depends upon the rate which he is charged, and is this also to be kept dark from the occupier? Is it only to be conveyed to the person liable to be rated? Why should not the occupier have the information, which is just as important to him as it is to the owner?
§ Sir K. WOODI think the right hon. and gallant Member is making an unnecessary difficulty over this point. Obviously, when an alteration is being made in the rate, notice should be sent to the person who is adversely affected, and that is the person liable to be rated. Those words are wider than the words in the Clause as it stands.
§ Mr. CRAWFURDThis is a point of some substance. Later on, I hope to have the opportunity of moving an Amendment which will have the effect of giving to the occupier of the hereditament rated all the information which is given to the person who pays the rate. That seems to me to be a principle of the first importance, from many points of view. With regard to this particular Amendment now before the House, I wish to back up what has fallen from the right hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), to the effect that under the Kent Restriction Acts the person adversely affected is the occupier of the house, and, therefore, he should at least know what is going on.
§ Sir K. WOODI will look into the matter again. The person who ought to have notice of any alteration in the rate is the person liable for the rate, but I will give an undertaking that we will look into it between now and the time when the Bill goes to another place.
§ Mr. WEBBI think the hon. Member in charge of the Bill must consider a little, having said just now that the person adversely affected should get the notice, and that is the owner. I do not know whether the Mover of the Amendment meant that, but surely he must know that in a positive majority of the hereditaments that are rated, the owner, while he may actually pay the rate, gets it back, as a matter of fact, from the occupier, and surely, therefore, the occupier is equally adversely affected with the owner. In many cases, indeed, his rent actually depends on the amount of the rate. Here is a proposal that the rate may be reduced, and the occupier, according to the Bill, is to have notice of that reduction, but, according to the Amendment, the occupier is not to have notice. Assuming that the Government really wish to give notice to all the people adversely affected, it is easy, instead of accepting this Amendment, to leave in the words "occupier of the hereditament," and after them to insert the words "and the person liable to be rated." They are different people in positively a majority of oases, and surely, therefore, the obvious thing is to include both. That was actually the proposal, as I understood it, of the hon. Member
§ in charge of the Bill, because he said he wanted to give notice to the person adversely affected, yet, by accepting the Amendment, he is going to cut out the person adversely affected.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODAre we not going to have a reply?
§ Sir K. WOODI gave an undertaking to look into the matter.
Mr. ALEXANDERDoes that mean that the Parliamentary Secretary withdraws his acceptance of the Amendment? If not, we must go to a Division against it. We cannot leave it as it is.
Mr. CHAMBERLAINI venture to think it would be much better to accept the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary. He has offered to have this matter further looked into. If the hon. Member inlands to go to a Division, we shall have to take the decision of the House, and that will be the end of it. Otherwise, we are quite ready to look into it.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 119; Noes, 292.
1067| Division No. 389] | AYES. | [9.54 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Greenall, T. | Montague. Frederick |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Morrison, R. c. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Naylor, T. E. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Oliver, George Harold |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Groves, T. | Palin, John Henry |
| Baker, Walter | Grundy, T. W. | Ponsonby, Arthur |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) | Potts, John S. |
| Barr, J. | Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Batey, Joseph | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Riley, Ben |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Ritson, J. |
| Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) |
| Briant, Frank | Hardie, George D. | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Broad, F. A. | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Hayday, Arthur | Scurr, John |
| Buchanan, G. | Hayes, John Henry | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Cape, Thomas | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Charleton, H. C. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Clowes, S. | Hirst, G. H. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Smillie, Robert |
| Compton, Joseph | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Smith Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Connolly, M. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Cove, W. G. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Snell, Harry |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Taylor, R. A. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Kelly, W. T. | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Kennedy, T. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Dennison, R. | Lansbury, George | Thurtle, E. |
| Duncan, C. | Lawson, John James | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Dunnico, H. | Lee, F. | Townend, A. E. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Lindley, F. W. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Fenby, T. D. | Livingstone, A. M. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Lowth, T. | Viant, S. P. |
| Gillett, George M. | Lunn, William | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Gosling, Harry | Mackinder, W. | Walsh. Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Warne, G. H. |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | March, S. | Watson, W. M. (Dumfermline) |
| Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) | Wiggins, William Martin | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) | |
| Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| West wood, J. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) | Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. A. |
| Whiteley, W. | Windsor, Walter | Barnes. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Doyle, Sir N. Grattan | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Drewe, C. | Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. |
| Albery, Irving James | Duckworth, John | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Jacob, A. E. |
| Allan, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Edwards, John H. (Accrington) | Jephcott, A. R. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Elliot, Captain Walter E. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Elveden, Viscount | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) |
| Apsley, Lord | England, Colonel A. | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | King, Captain Henry Douglas |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Knox, Sir Alfred |
| Banks, Reginald Mitchell | Everard, W. Lindsay | Lamb, J. Q. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Listor, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Little, Dr. E. Graham |
| Beamish, Captain T. P. H. | Fanshawe, Commander G. D. | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Fermoy, Lord | Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Fielden, E. B. | Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Finburgh, S. | Loder, J. de V. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Fleming, D. P. | Looker, Herbert William |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Lord, Walter Greaves- |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Forrest, W. | Lougher, L. |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vera |
| Blundell, F. N. | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Frece, Sir Walter de | Lynn, Sir R. J. |
| Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Mac Andrew, Charles Glen |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. | Ganzoni, Sir John | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus |
| Brass, Captain W. | Gates, Percy | Macintyre, Ian |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | McLean, Major A. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Gee, Captain R. | Macmillan, Captain H. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Goff, Sir Park | Macquisten, F. A. |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Grace, John | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Grant, J. A. | Malone, Major P. B. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Gretton, Colonel John | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Grotrian, H. Brent | Meller, R. J. |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Merriman, F. B. |
| Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan | Hall, Lieut. Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- |
| Burman, J. B. | Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) | Mitchell. S. (Lanark, Lanark) |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Hall, Capt. W. O'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) |
| Butt, Sir Alfred | Hammersley, S. S. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Hanbury, C. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) |
| Caine, Gordon Hall | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Moore, Sir Newton J. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Harland, A. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. |
| Cassels, J. D. | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Moreing, Captain A. H. |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Hartington, Marquess of | Murchison, C. K. |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Neville, R. J. |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Haslam, Henry C. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Christie, J. A. | Hawke, John Anthony | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Clayton, G. C. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Oakley, T. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh |
| Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by) | Owen, Major G. |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Hilton, Cecil | Pease, William Edwin |
| Cope, Major William | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Pennefather, Sir John |
| Couper, J. B. | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Penny, Frederick George |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Holland, Sir Arthur | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Holt, Captain H. P. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Crook, C. W. | Homan, C. W. J. | Perring, William George |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Hopkins, J. W. W. | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Pielou, D. P. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Howard, Captain Hon. Donald | Pilcher, G. |
| Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Pilditch, Sir Philip |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Hume, Sir G. H. | Preston, William |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Hurst, Gerald B. | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Dixey, A. C. | Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) | Radford, E. A. |
| Raine, W. | Shepperson, E. W. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Rawson, Alfred Cooper | Skelton, A. N. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Rees, Sir Beddoe | Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) | Smith-Carington, Neville W. | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Remer, J. R. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | Wells, S. R. |
| Remnant, Sir James | Spender Clay, Colonel H. | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) | White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple |
| Rice, Sir Frederick | Steel, Major Samuel Strang | Wilson. R R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) | Storry Deans, R. | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Rye, F. G. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Salmon, Major I. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid | Womersley, W. J. |
| Samuel, A, M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) | Wood, E.(Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Sandeman, A. Stewart | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) | Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) |
| Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Sanderson, Sir Frank | Tinne, J. A. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Sandon, Lord | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement | |
| Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. | Vaughan-Morgan, Cot. K. P. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Savery, S. S. | Waddington, R. | Major Sir Harry Barnston and |
| Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) | Wallace, Captain D. E. | Major Hennessy. |
| Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
§ Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.
Mr. SANDEMAN ALLENI beg to move, in page 6, line 40, at the end, to insert the words
(3) This Section shall come into operation on the appointed day,This is merely a drafting Amendment to make clear that the Section shall come into operation on the appointed day.
§ Sir WILFRID SUGDENI bog to second the Amendment.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODThis Sub-section now seems to be scattered all over the Bill. Clause after Clause contains the words "This Section shall come into operation on the appointed day." If it be desirable that this should appear at the end of each Clause, could we not take it as read in subsequent Clauses instead of having it moved on each occasion? I do think that this new feature in our legislation ought to have some foreword from the Minister in charge.
§ Amendment agreed to.